Zoro going to Mihawk was great for his character development, and I'm glad Oda went with that. As said above, Zoro abandoned his pride and sought to train under the very man he aims to beat, his own goal, not for his sake but for the sake of Luffy's. We saw him willing to toss his dream aside and die for Luffy, but when he went to Mihawk, we saw him throw away his pride, which was probably one of the most important things. Zoro often looks like somehow who doesn't care much about anything, but we saw how much he loves and is loyal to Luffy, and how he's willing to admit he's not as strong as he thought he was, and that he needs to get stronger to help Luffy.
Honestly, there's beauty in seeing a contender train under the titleholder that they aim to topple, and especially willing to throw away pride for the sake of others.
It was a brilliant cap to Pretime Skip Zoro's "arc" so to speak.
It could very well have been another swordsman, but it being Mihawk makes it resonate more as it's Zoro bowing to the one he hopes to surpass, not because of his own goal, but for someone else's.
I do think having Zoro train under Mihawk was a bad way to go about Zoro entering the time skip. I would have much preferred Zoro stumbling on Mihawk's trainer or mentor. BUT its not something that effects me in anyway. I was just kinda "meh" about it. We already new Zoro was willing to give up his dream for Luffy back in Thrillerbark. We didn't need to see his throw his pride away for Luffy further.
To me their fight lost alot of its hype.
I don't see them fighting to the death and if they aren't fighting to the death they will both be holding back.
If Zoro performs well during his fight with Kaido I am more than ready to says Zoro = Mihawk at the end of the arc (as you all know I think Mihawk is just under the Yonko so i have no problem saying Zoro is a little under the Yonko level as well pending his performance)so I'd much prefer someone antagonistic take the title from Mihawk so that it can be a fight where neither hold back.
There has to be some type of student teacher bond that they formed in the 2 years. Zoro has been with Mihawk far longer than he's been with Luffy. I don't for a second believe Mihawk is going to go for the killing blow.
If they do fight it will be more of an intense spar.
Of course I expect annoying backlash from this comment, but its just my opinion. Many of you have heard this from me already.
I do think having Zoro train under Mihawk was a bad way to go about Zoro entering the time skip. I would have much preferred Zoro stumbling on Mihawk's trainer or mentor. BUT its not something that effects me in anyway. I was just kinda "meh" about it. We already new Zoro was willing to give up his dream for Luffy back in Thrillerbark. We didn't need to see his throw his pride away for Luffy further.
To me their fight lost alot of its hype.
I don't see them fighting to the death and if they aren't fighting to the death they will both be holding back.
If Zoro performs well during his fight with Kaido I am more than ready to says Zoro = Mihawk at the end of the arc (as you all know I think Mihawk is just under the Yonko so i have no problem saying Zoro is a little under the Yonko level as well pending his performance)so I'd much prefer someone antagonistic take the title from Mihawk so that it can be a fight where neither hold back.
There has to be some type of student teacher bond that they formed in the 2 years. Zoro has been with Mihawk far longer than he's been with Luffy. I don't for a second believe Mihawk is going to go for the killing blow.
If they do fight it will be more of an intense spar.
Of course I expect annoying backlash from this comment, but its just my opinion. Many of you have heard this from me already.
I feel like he did it this way maybe cuz zoro wouldn’t get to fight mihawk I have a feeling that some1 else would take Mihawk down which would lead for zoro to fight that person
I feel like he did it this way maybe cuz zoro wouldn’t get to fight mihawk I have a feeling that some1 else would take Mihawk down which would lead for zoro to fight that person
I would certainly feel like Zoro earned it more if it was someone other than Mihawk that held the title now
Its just not a deal breaker for me.
I don't think it is important enough for me to be THAT concerned about. I'm about as concerned about it as I am with every other SH achieving their dream. The dream we care about most is Luffy's so that takes the priority honestly.
From your comment I get that you didn't like Zoro nor his goal way before the timeskip, so for someone who doesn't like the character in the first place it's normal to also dislike scenes that are "pure Zoro".
"I'd say it ruined zoro's character but it was pretty "flat" to begin with. "
This was just me thinking to myself...
I can elaborate further but for the purpose of this response-
I generally liked pre zoro.
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The topic of there being a better mentor for zoro than mihawk (i.e. lazy writing) lends itself more to a discussion than argument. Cause as it stands, the narrative hasn't presented enough alternatives to facilitate such a diversion (...arguing within the confines of the story is nonsensical as the topic requires you to see beyond it).
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As for mihawk training zoro being bad...
It ruined zoro vs/surpassing mihawk and hasn't presented anything better.
Versus: got rid of the tension.
Surpassing: it'd be like a scientist nowaday saying they surpassed newton while standing upon his work.
Perhaps if we got some look into the actual training it can be remedied but with what we were given... it made things comparatively worse.
"I'd say it ruined zoro's character but it was pretty "flat" to begin with. "
This was just me thinking to myself...
I can elaborate further but for the purpose of this response-
I generally liked pre zoro.
---
The topic of there being a better mentor for zoro than mihawk (i.e. lazy writing) lends itself more to a discussion than argument. Cause as it stands, the narrative hasn't presented enough alternatives to facilitate such a diversion (...arguing within the confines of the story is nonsensical as the topic requires you to see beyond it).
---
As for mihawk training zoro being bad...
It ruined zoro vs/surpassing mihawk and hasn't presented anything better.
Versus: got rid of the tension.
Surpassing: it'd be like a scientist nowaday saying they surpassed newton while standing upon his work.
Perhaps if we got some look into the actual training it can be remedied but with what we were given... it made things comparatively worse.
"I'd say it ruined zoro's character but it was pretty "flat" to begin with. "
This was just me thinking to myself...
I can elaborate further but for the purpose of this response-
I generally liked pre zoro.
---
The topic of there being a better mentor for zoro than mihawk (i.e. lazy writing) lends itself more to a discussion than argument. Cause as it stands, the narrative hasn't presented enough alternatives to facilitate such a diversion (...arguing within the confines of the story is nonsensical as the topic requires you to see beyond it).
---
As for mihawk training zoro being bad...
It ruined zoro vs/surpassing mihawk and hasn't presented anything better.
Versus: got rid of the tension.
Surpassing: it'd be like a scientist nowaday saying they surpassed newton while standing upon his work.
Perhaps if we got some look into the actual training it can be remedied but with what we were given... it made things comparatively worse.
As I said in that post, it didn't ruin any tension for me, nor do I see how the equivalence about the scientist is remotely similar, so I do feel sorry that you can't enjoy what I do, but as subjective as that is, there's nothing more to say about it.
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As for "who else could have trained him". Yes, of course, if we look "beyond the confines of the story" Oda can always make up someone else, but making up a swordsman to teach Zoro that's as good as Mihawk or Rayleigh would undermine Mihawk. Mihawk being his teacher is only a problem if you dislike Zoro's development with Mihawk, which isn't the case for everybody. I, for one, really liked Mihawk training him and the way Zoro convinced him, and I fail to see how them bonding would take anything away from their duel. "Friendship" is one thing, Zoro's ambition is another. If his "friendship" with Mihawk got in the way of his duel then Zoro's ambition wouldn't be worth anything, but that's not the kind of character he is. They'll fight eachother seriously because they respect eachother and because they care. There's no problem in them fighting to the death either, since every arc we have many characters fighting all-out and no one ever dies from that.
Either way, I don't think Zoro vs Mihawk will end with someone dead, but if Oda has learned anything from being an assistant on "Rurouni Kenshin" he would know that a main character killing his master to surpass him can be cool.
Zoro is a simple character, yet with all that simpleness I still think he's very misunderstood.
And none of these posts are "backlash". This is called people expressing disagreement in a polite way.
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And, forgot to mention: I'd never consider defeating the strongest in the world lackluster. That topic is about Zoro's dream and it's never a personal strife between him and Mihawk. Mihawk simply embodies the pinnacle he wants to reach. That's his only purpose as a character.
Zoro learnt how to fight better from him, but it doesn't look like Mihawk passed on his specific swordtechniques or anything to him. He never made him into a successor of his style or anything of the sort: he just pushed him up a tier or two in power so he can procceed and perhaps one day give him a proper fight, which Mihawk also desires ever since the Baratie.
Mihawk being the WSS is purely for Zoro's sake. He doesn't serve a bigger purpose to the story other than for Zoro to surpass him. That's it.
There isn't some great race to see who can beat Mihawk for the title. Zoro is essentially running a 1 man race. The fact is that in the entirely of One Piece, Zoro doesn't have a single other competitor to the title. Now that alone should make it easy enough, but it isn't. Not only is Zoro running a 1 man race, he also got trained by the only one who finished the race to begin with.
We are told and it is implied Mihawk sought out swordsmen until their were none stronger/greater than he.
This leads us to believe their wasn't a WSS until Mihawk claimed the title for his own.otherwise we would have had Roger or Shiki with that title. It would be like Ussop going out and beating every Sniper he came across and at the end became the World's Strongest Sniper. Zoro isn't doing that. He hasn't fought an elite swordsman yet.
If your comfortable with Zoro fighting people like Money, Pica, and Killer when we have big named swordsmen then more power to you. I would rather see Zoro in swordfight since his goal is to be the WSS.
Again, this doesn't ruin his character, but it leaves much to be desired.
It's easy to brush aside these critics as one simply misunderstanding his character, but the facts remain ever present.
This leads us to believe their wasn't a WSS until Mihawk claimed the title for his own.otherwise we would have had Roger or Shiki with that title. It would be like Ussop going out and beating every Sniper he came across and at the end became the World's Strongest Sniper. Zoro isn't doing that. He hasn't fought an elite swordsman yet.
If your comfortable with Zoro fighting people like Money, Pica, and Killer when we have big named swordsmen then more power to you. I would rather see Zoro in swordfight since his goal is to be the WSS.
Again, this doesn't ruin his character, but it leaves much to be desired.
It's easy to brush aside these critics as one simply misunderstanding his character, but the facts remain ever present.
In fact, rather than brushing aside those particular critics, I didn't even address them, as they have nothing to do with what was the topic at hand (Zoro being trained by Mihawk), so they're clearly not why I said you, among others, misunderstand Zoro and Mihawk.
Am I comfortable with Zoro fighting Monet, Pica and Killer? I don't really mind them. I'm not in a hurry: Mihawk is not Zoro's next opponent. At the very least, Shiryu is an obvious opponent that will come before him, and there might be others, so why would I fret over Zoro beating some non-swordsmen fighters?
As I told Ellenate, I'm sorry that you can't enjoy the character as much as I do, I'd of course love to see him at least go all out for once, and I'll love to see him defeat strong swordsmen in the future. There's no hurry.
I also don't understand this "1 man race" complaint. This has never been about races. Luffy's dream is a race, but no one else's in the crew is. It's not about Zoro actively competing for some title. Zoro does not care about the title. Nor does Zoro care about who else shares his goals. Zoro cares about strength, and anyone who is a strong swordsman is in his way to his dream, even if they don't share the especifics, so if you wanted to see it as a race, he has a lot of competition.
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The WSS title is non-important, let's make that clear. That was just Oda's way of cartoonizing the situation. Of making it clear for every reader what might otherwise seem like a rather "unclear" dream.
If there was no WSS title, Zoro's dream would be the same, but readers would have trouble understanding where does exactly Zoro's dream end. Even if Zoro were to defeat Shanks or Rayleigh, fans wouldn't have the means to understand if he had really succesfully become the strongest swordsman in the world. How would Zoro himself know when his dream stops being a dream?
This is why Mihawk and the WSS exist. It does not matter if Mihawk serves no further purpose to the overall story (which is still to be seen anyway). He does not need to, as his purpose is already enormous: He's our only reference of what it will take for Zoro to be the strongest. He's the man who embodies his dream, and who, by being defeated, will serve as proof that Zoro's the strongest.
What this means is that the WSS was introduced into the story to serve Zoro's dream, but it's not the other way around: Zoro's dream was not sparked by the existence of some WSS title. If it didn't exist, he would still seek the strongest to fight. It would simply be harder for the readers.
It also means that, if people want to see it as some race, any strong swordsman is in the race, as it is not a race for the title, but simply for being the strongest, and it doesn't matter if those others want to be in it. They being strong puts them in Zoro's path.
When the two fight, it's highly unlikely that they will hold back. Previous relationship or not, the two will go all out against each other because both will have their ambitions are on the line. And as we saw early in the series, Mihawk will respect that. Luffy and Shanks will assuredly turn out the same way. Animosity won't fuel the fight, but they will be going all in.
And it is incredibly weird that no one else has been aiming for WSS. I've mentioned that before myself. YMMV, but I do feel like it's a pretty blatant omission in Zoro's journey. His lack of fights against swordsmen is pretty weird as well, especially when we're so deep in Wano.
Zoro has 0 competition for WSS. Thats a fact. If you can show me someone else wanting the title (who is alive) I will gladly retract my OBJECTIVE statement.
His goal isn't to be the strongest. Its to be the strongest swordsman. No one else wants that.
I know you want to compare dreams but Zoro wanting to be WSS isn't like Sanji finding all blue, it isn't like drawing a map of the world. His actually requires more effort than everyone besides Luffy. Sanji doest have to actively do anything to achieve his dream. Brook just needs to reunite with Laboon to achieve his dream, thats not like defeating the WSS.
I enjoy Zoro just fine, but to pretend like its just fine he's racing himself to a finish line of a race no one wants to run isn't it, bruh. He hasn't had a single solid bit of competition yet.
He has badass moments and thats good enough for me. And it seems to be good enough for alot of people seeing as how popular he is.
As for "who else could have trained him". Yes, of course, if we look "beyond the confines of the story" Oda can always make up someone else, but making up a swordsman to teach Zoro that's as good as Mihawk or Rayleigh would undermine Mihawk.
Zoro learnt how to fight better from him, but it doesn't look like Mihawk passed on his specific swordtechniques or anything to him. He never made him into a successor of his style or anything of the sort: he just pushed him up a tier or two in power so he can procceed and perhaps one day give him a proper fight, which Mihawk also desires ever since the Baratie.
If the purpose of the training was only for zoro to get a few tiers higher, doesn't it seem overkill to have the teacher be the strongest in the world?
Zoro has 0 competition for WSS. Thats a fact. If you can show me someone else wanting the title (who is alive) I will gladly retract my OBJECTIVE statement.
Why did I even bother making a whole post to contradict your "objective" statement... People not wanting to be WSS has nothing to do with there being competition.
Zoro has tons of competition. People not caring about the title is unimportant, as it's not a race: it's Zoro's path. He wants to become something, and in his way to become said thing there are people he needs to surpass: To become the strongest, every strong swordsman in the world, Mihawk and Shanks included, are competition. The title is just Oda's way of simplifying the process by which he can be considered the strongest.
When the two fight, it's highly unlikely that they will hold back. Previous relationship or not, the two will go all out against each other because both will have their ambitions are on the line. And as we saw early in the series, Mihawk will respect that. Luffy and Shanks will assuredly turn out the same way. Animosity won't fuel the fight, but they will be going all in.
And it is incredibly weird that no one else has been aiming for WSS. I've mentioned that before myself. YMMV, but I do feel like it's a pretty blatant omission in Zoro's journey. His lack of fights against swordsmen is pretty weird as well, especially when we're so deep in Wano.
Let's ask ourselves what's there to gain from aiming for WSS.
Zoro has that desire because he's obsessed with becoming the strongest, but it's not a title that comes with any kind of power or riches or priviledges at all. It's understandable that no one else would gun for it.
Instead, other characters have different ambitions and objectives. They may want to be yonkos or pirate kings or just serve another person like Vista, but as long as Zoro doesn't prove he's the strongest, they're all in his path to become WSS. They are all, objetively, competition in the way of his dream.
I do agree that it would be cool to see Zoro fight more swordsmen, particularly on this arc, but that's a different matter. I'm being patient on that regard.
If the purpose of the training was only for zoro to get a few tiers higher, doesn't it seem overkill to have the teacher be the strongest in the world?
Did it seem overkill for Luffy to get trained by Rayleigh? Why do you have such a problem with Mihawk but not with him? Was it overkill for Franky to get access to Vegapunk's designs? Or for Nami to go with the better experts on climate on the world?
That "bad fanfic" brought us a marvelous exchange between Zoro and Mihawk, so I'm thankful for that.
