One Piece Mega Convo Thread, the 1st Chapter

[Lord Rayleigh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

I have to disagree with that. That would mean that the logia power has a mind of its own.

Actually, we saw that a df can have his own mind : remember the zoans power that took control of two objects : a sword and a gun. You could not tell me that this is the spirit of the object that control the zoan df. That is definitely a proof you cannot ignore.

nota bene : I wondering about the animal side that seems to control the awakened zoans : is it the df mind ? But that is just a question that should go to the awakened zoans thread : I will put it later on that thread.

We've seen some examples where logia didn't automatically turn into their element. When Luffy kicked Aokiji, for example. If you think that kick wasn't enough to break the ice, then I'm going to be severely disappointed.

Disappointed because you think I would use an easy counter-argument that I do not (really) trust ? If I do not think something is true, I will not use it in my arguments.

The only attack that has been shown to be able to break Ao Kiji's Ace was the Gomu Gomu Storm. For the other attacks, we do not really know if he had turned into logia mode or not. From my point of view, as the Gomu Gomu Pistol and this kick were strong, the body must have turned into his element (because you saw I consider that the DF can do it by himself). But I think Ao Kiji decided by himself to turn into ice. Why would he had not knowing he was fighting Luffy ? You are the one supporting that the logia user is nearly always conscious that he had to turn in logia mode by reflex when he is fighting an ennemy.

Anyway, the ice can be very tough : I do not know if you had the opportunity to meet that kind of ice. If you try to break it with you shoes or hard matter, you cannot do it : you just manage to take down little outlying parts of the ice.
So, as I said, I think the Gomu Gomu storm was the only attack Luffy used against Ao Kiji AND that was enough strong to break it. And the others attacks of Luffy must have not managed to break it.
For example, this attack was strong and I think the body turns into logia mode and resists to it without breaking.
That would also explain why the body managed to freeze Luffy's arm just after : it had to be turned in ice before to freeze it : said in a SBS.
So, at that moment, it must have been definitely the ice mode that managed to endure Luffy's attack.

Or is it that ice logia didn't recognize that kick as a threat? That's the hole in automatic defense theory.

No, no, this was definitely a strong attack in the middle of a serious fight ; as the gomu gomu no " burette (=?) " was. Ao Kiji knew that Luffy was fighting with strong attacks, impossible an admiral would not be able to notice that.

I get what you believe. But I'm more inclined to believe that logias evade damage consciously or through trained reflex than that there is an automated devil fruit response mechanism behind it.
After all, devil fruit power is just a tool. Body itself doesn't know when it is in danger. It's up to user to control it and to avoid the damage through conscious use of his power.

I get your point too but I cannot agree, especially about that Ki Zaru/Apoo case that bothers me. That is the first time in the manga I saw such a situation with a logia user and I find it very different from the common ones.
nota bene : I do not agree about the " just a tool ". As I said, there were definitely prooves with the two zoans objects that a df was not only a tool.

Kizaru seems to use his power constantly. Before Apoo, the bullets just went through his head. After, Usopp and Brooke couldn't harm him.

Constantly ? No, no, that is false and we both agreed that the logia users use their power at will. But that does not mean they are constantly in their logia mode : we said it was obviously not the case.

Anything that is different with Apoo is that he wasn't using physical attacks, but some sound waves. That may be the only reason why the attacks separated Kizaru's body parts instead of just going through him. That's probably the reason behind Kizaru's surprise.

That is indeed a kind of attack unknown in the OP world but sound waves normally go through light : that is basic in our real word. I do not think that Oda would make such an elementary thing different in the OP world : that would be for me a total mistake on his part.
That is indeed the reason why he was surprised because he does not think he could be " touched " by these kinds of things.
But I think that if he had not been surprised and knew that these were attacks, the sound waves would have gone through him like it normally does : but that is something impossible for your point of view if you really consider that this was because it was sound wave attack that it had separated Ki Zaru's body parts. If you agree that if he had not been surprised, the sound waves would have gone through him as it normally does with the others attacks, you must accept that it was because he was surprised that it did not go through him, and not because it was a sound wave attack.

 

[Razh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Anyway, the ice can be very tough : I do not know if you had the opportunity to meet that kind of ice. If you try to break it with you shoes or hard matter, you cannot do it : you just manage to take down little outlying parts of the ice.

You got me there. I can't break ice that easily. You know what else I can't do? Pull a giant rabbit out of snow with just one hand. Push away two buildings with one hand each. Leave a perfect fist print on someone's face. Climb a huge cliff while carrying two people.
I think you get what I mean.

nota bene : I do not agree about the " just a tool ". As I said, there were definitely prooves with the two zoans objects that a df was not only a tool.

Those are zoans. We haven't seen anything but the zoans merged with unanimated objects. They probably have some personality, which probably leads to awakened zoan if used too much, but that's a different matter.
When we see an object fused with paramecia or logia, I'll accept that every fruit has a mind or personality of its own. But at this point, it's only zoans.

Constantly ? No, no, that is false and we both agreed that the logia users use their power at will. But that does not mean they are constantly in their logia mode : we said it was obviously not the case.

Don't misunderstand what I wrote. I meant to say that Kizaru obviously used his light mode or whatever we can call it, for an extended duration of time. Not that he is constantly light.

That is indeed a kind of attack unknown in the OP world but sound waves normally go through light : that is basic in our real word. I do not think that Oda would make such an elementary thing different in the OP If you agree that if he had not been surprised, the sound waves would have gone through him as it normally does with the others attacks, you must accept that it was because he was surprised that it did not go through him, and not because it was a sound wave attack.

Honestly, we don't know how Oda made it work. And I must accept nothing.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

You got me there. I can't break ice that easily. You know what else I can't do? Pull a giant rabbit out of snow with just one hand. Push away two buildings with one hand each. Leave a perfect fist print on someone's face. Climb a huge cliff while carrying two people.
I think you get what I mean.

You mean Luffy is really strong by showing examples of his exploits.
But ice can be very strong too, you must not forget that neither.
I mean it is not so easy to break Ao Kiji's ice : I strongly believe that and you seem to think that Luffy can easily do that.
But you should agree ice can be very harsh : the ice-breakers boats cannot travel in the during all the year : only during the summer. Do not underestimate ice. That shows the resistance of ice. So, I think, from my side, that it is not so easy, even for Luffy, to break Ao Kiji's ice.
Besides, the example I show you with the Luffy's punch seems to show an attack of Luffy that did not manage to break ice. I explained in the last post why.

Those are zoans. We haven't seen anything but the zoans merged with unanimated objects. They probably have some personality, which probably leads to awakened zoan if used too much, but that's a different matter.
When we see an object fused with paramecia or logia, I'll accept that every fruit has a mind or personality of its own. But at this point, it's only zoans.

Agreed. This only works for the moment for the zoan case. This was just a nota bene. Lol, I said exactly the same thing at the same moment (08h44 pm) in the awakened zoans thread

But a logia does need to have a spirit to do that : that can be a classical logia rule (for the classical logias : that means that have the intangibility power) as we have physic rules in the world.

Don't misunderstand what I wrote. I meant to say that Kizaru obviously used his light mode or whatever we can call it, for an extended duration of time. Not that he is constantly light.

Ok.

Honestly, we don't know how Oda made it work. And I must accept nothing.

As we have often seen logias in action, and from what I know about light and sound waves in our real world, I have made my own mind : that sound waves normally go through light. By consequence, the only explanation of the Apoo/Ki Zaru case is the " surprise thing ". I follow logic. So, it is a point of view but at least led by reason.

 

[camil222]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

its proven that light acts as matter because its attracted by the gravitional pull and other reasons. so the sound waves of apoos music can definately affect light so he coudlve been in his light mode. and im pretty sure that his attack woudlve killed kizaru right away if he wouldnt have been in his element mode. like he got split in half and even if its one piece, no one would survive that unless hes made of light. and i doubt that he switched his body supper fast into light after gotten split in half to reform himself, that would be a little to farfetched. but we dont know how apoos fruit works so we cant really say.

 

[RichardMNixon]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

its proven that light acts as matter because its attracted by the gravitional pull and other reasons. so the sound waves of apoos music can definately affect light so he coudlve been in his light mode. and im pretty sure that his attack woudlve killed kizaru right away if he wouldnt have been in his element mode. like he got split in half and even if its one piece, no one would survive that unless hes made of light. and i doubt that he switched his body supper fast into light after gotten split in half to reform himself, that would be a little to farfetched. but we dont know how apoos fruit works so we cant really say.

Or maybe in the two minutes he sat there watching an enemy, he considered that he may want to raise his defenses.

Sure, maybe Aokiji's ice is really strong, but then why was Robin able to break it? Is she stronger than Luffy now?

 

[Razh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Sure, maybe Aokiji's ice is really strong, but then why was Robin able to break it? Is she stronger than Luffy now?

Damn, I wanted to use that argument now.
It came to me last night, but I was too sleepy...

---

its proven that light acts as matter because its attracted by the gravitional pull and other reasons. so the sound waves of apoos music can definately affect light so he coudlve been in his light mode.

I was thinking along those lines too. I don't know how it works but it could have something to do with the frequencies. I don't know. I just wanted to say that Apoo's version of sonic boom could have done it, while a normal sword couldn't. It's not purely scientific but Oda doesn't exactly follow science to every detail.

 

[RichardMNixon]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Still going at it i see....I hope you guys realize that debating over this is about the same as if you were debating over why Luffy's clothes shrink along with the rest of him after Gear 3.

Clothing in one piece is made of Phlebotinum. Oda basically said so in an SBS to explain why one of the characters wasn't naked, though I forget who.

 

[zerocooldx]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Clothing in one piece is made of Phlebotinum. Oda basically said so in an SBS to explain why one of the characters wasn't naked, though I forget who.

Finally, i was waiting for one of you to mention this. Phlebotinum is essentially a plot progression tool used by writers. It is used to avoid unnecessary discussion over certain actions. So now do you see why this discussion is meaningless? I mean you did basically answer it yourself.

 

[Razh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Nobody forced you to read it or participate in it. For some of us it's fun to discuss about all kinds of things.
We don't need some party breaker to tell us that it's meaningless to discuss it. If we go by that, probably most of the discussions here are meaningless and we are all wasting time. That's probably true, but I'm here to communicate and exchange opinions about One Piece, which I can't do that much in RL. It's fun. So take your comments elsewhere. Nobody cares that it's meaningless.

You can always open a thread of your own. You can even PM the mods to see if they can give you your own Sub-forum. Meaningful One Piece discussions.


[nami] Cool down guys. A few posts have been deleted above as they are spammy n flamy. [/nami]

 

[RichardMNixon]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Finally, i was waiting for one of you to mention this. Phlebotinum is essentially a plot progression tool used by writers. It is used to avoid unnecessary discussion over certain actions. So now do you see why this discussion is meaningless? I mean you did basically answer it yourself.

I disagree. How and why the logia fruits work the way they do may as well be phlebotinum as it certainly isn't anything based on reality. However they do in all likelihood function in a specific way and as Razh said, we are discussing which way that is.

OTOH, I would consider them to be pure phlebotinum if they didn't function consistently - i.e. Smoker and Ace are always elemental and virtually invincible unless it would be funny if they weren't. I'd be fine with this, but I think most people on this board would suggest Oda is more consistent and well-thought-out than that.

 

[Razh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Luffy's clothes expanding and shrinking is more like a comic relief. Stuff like that gives One Piece that comic atmosphere. It would also be a drag for Oda if most of the devil fruit users got left naked every time they use their powers. Nobody cares about such details.

Ace burning his shorts, Buggy being unable to split because his clothes are holding him, Smoker leaving his clothes behind, Kizaru too, zoans shredding their clothes while transforming, Magellan needing to change his wet uniform every time he uses hydra...
That all would be very funny, but it would drag the story too much.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

its proven that light acts as matter because its attracted by the gravitional pull and other reasons.
so the sound waves of apoos music can definately affect light so he coudlve been in his light mode.

That is stupid. Everything is matter except the anti-matter in the world. But that does not mean you can affect every matter with every other matter. If I punch light, wind, I will not injure hit. This is the same thing with sound waves on light/wind. They wound not with an explosion destroy/cut mere light or mere wind. It seems only Rayleigh has been shown to use the breath technic to separe a light beam in two parts. I do not think an explosion of sound waves and cutting sound waves would do the same thing than Rayleigh.

and im pretty sure that his attack woudlve killed kizaru right away if he wouldnt have been in his element mode. like he got split in half and even if its one piece, no one would survive that unless hes made of light. and i doubt that he switched his body supper fast into light after gotten split in half to reform himself, that would be a little to farfetched. but we dont know how apoos fruit works so we cant really say.

Do people not see the difference with the Apoo/Ki Zaru case and all the others we have seen : the difference is HUGE ! ! !
Have you ever seen Ki Zaru after being hit in the situation of the last panel ? Is there nothing that bothers you here ? You said he was in light mode before being hit but it ends up with his body being cut in two parts. But that does not work with Ki Zaru because we know that with light mode, his matter could not be divided : that was shown with Brook and Usopp, the bullets that went into Ki Zaru said : it just go through : it did not divided the light matter. I do not believed that it is possible with sound waves : that is not even possible in logic : just see with our world. That sound waves were cutting and explosing but in our world that do not work neither.
As I said, only Rayleigh divided light in the manga but it was not a normal technic he used, there is no equivalent of the breath technic in our world.

 

[Razh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

You just have to live with the fact that it happened. Stretched or not.

Kizaru managed to avoid every attack before and after that one, aside from Rayleigh's.
But no, Apoo got him by surprise, even though Kizaru was waiting for him to attack for almost a minute, and managed to cut him in half, but not before Kizaru's pika pika no mi activated on it's own in the same instant the damage was happening.

Which of those two options seems more strteched?

 

[gesgift]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

You just have to live with the fact that it happened. Stretched or not.

Kizaru managed to avoid every attack before and after that one, aside from Rayleigh's.
But no, Apoo got him by surprise, even though Kizaru was waiting for him to attack for almost a minute, and managed to cut him in half, but not before Kizaru's pika pika no mi activated on it's own in the same instant the damage was happening.

Which of those two options seems more strteched?

He also seemed 'unattentive' when he got shot in the head. I guess that someone of Kizaru's level should allways be on guard when entering 'warground', centrainly when fighting SN's, not?

But these are just suppositions who seem the most plausible to me.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Kizaru managed to avoid every attack before and after that one, aside from Rayleigh's.

From what I have seen, he did not avoid to be injured in the same way as he normally did. After all, I have seen a normal arm gets cut, a body being divided in two ; what is not possible with his light mode.
Moreover, do not forget, he was not injured neither by Rayleigh's technic.

But no, Apoo got him by surprise, even though Kizaru was waiting for him to attack for almost a minute,

Hmmm. Is it my own invention or you are trying to depreciate that idea ? You do not introduce the two possible ways objectively. Besides, Ki Zaru said himself he was surprised. So, these words of yours added to depreciate the second possibility are false.

and managed to cut him in half,but not before Kizaru's pika pika no mi activated on it's own in the same instant the damage was happening.

No, no, not before, at the same moment in my vision. That is logic that if had activated automatically, it would have been at the same moment. Indeed, with that your postulate, you could not think that the DF had a " detector " that said just before that the body was going to be cut. the DF only activates knowing that there was a hazard the logia user did not prevent by himself : the only way to know there is a hazard is by suffering the attack.

 

[Gcat88]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

i think the entire SH crew will meet up in the marine HQ!!!

 

[gesgift]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Moreover, do not forget, he was not injured neither by Rayleigh's technic.

Excuse me if I got this wrong, but isn't Kizaru cut here by Silvers? cut=injury?

(in the right corner below http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/08/ )

 

[RichardMNixon]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Indeed, with that your postulate, you could not think that the DF had a " detector " that said just before that the body was going to be cut. the DF only activates knowing that there was a hazard the logia user did not prevent by himself : the only way to know there is a hazard is by suffering the attack.

Crocodile seemed to suggest that so sure. But then isn't there still two "modes?" A light mode and a flesh mode? If it does activate automatically, that suggests that it has to be activated in the first place as opposed to being always on.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Excuse me if I got this wrong, but isn't Kizaru cut here by Silvers? cut=injury?

(in the right corner below http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/08/ )

This is indeed the first panel.
Rayleigh prevent Ki Zaru from going to the Usopp/Brook/Zoro group by dividing the light itself. It means he stopped the continuity of the sunbeam that was transporting Ki Zaru and that suddenly stop the transportation of Ki Zaru. But Ki Zaru was not shown injured after that in the manga and the anime. You wonder why ?
Rayleigh separated light but Ki Zaru is not injured, that is normal, this is because he was in light mode.
If for example, Crocodile decides to turn into sand mode and you separates the sand in two parts : he is not injured. That is the same thing here. Indeed, Ki Zaru turn into light mode and light was separated in two parts : he was not injured.
But the difference is that normally you do not manage to separate light whereas you can - with raw strenght - separate sand.

 

[Razh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Indeed, Ki Zaru turn into light mode and light was separated in two parts : he was not injured.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/08/

HINT: Kizaru's cheek on the last panel.