Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

[TheOddOne]

What about Kon , grimjow Kensei Those dudes never made back to the manga or screen if i recall XDDDDDDDDD

 

[StrangerAtaru]

I really hate to say this but I really do have to bring Bo-bobo back into the equation when talking about Bleach's current position. Sawai pulled something similar to what Kubo just did in his "reset" by way of starting a pt. 2: using the same characters but basically a different story with only a couple of connections between the original and the new series. (he sort of set up a few things in the final phases of the original series but if you cut them out then basically you could just end it with the end of chp. 230 and you wouldn't be missing a thing outside an excellent final chapter at the very, very end of Shinsetsu that finishes the series perfectly) At the start, the anime had ended and it still had a bit of support from the magazine, but the series did plummet due to the rebellion. Mind you there were some interesting story ideas and concepts, not all of it worked and the fans had enough. With the failure of some of this, Sawai was under pressure to bring people back so he essentially had a blow-out final arc where he threw whatever he could, both in classics and in new stuff, to save the series. While the final arc probably was way more interesting than the earlier stuff, the damage was already done no matter what he did...and ultimately the series was brought to it's conclusion.

Now why do I bring up Bo-bobo in this comment on Bleach's current position? Because I see something similar: a series that had been going on and "finished" a storyline, but with the author deciding to do something different for the next one. Yes I know Bleach is obviously more mainstream and many still say "it's part of the Shonen Trio" (well not really anymore...I think Toriko has wedged into that third slot bit by bit), but the lesson from Bo-bobo is this: even if you throw every bell and whistle at a dying series, that isn't guaranteed to save it. It could prolonge it but nothing is certain and Bleach just feels like...well it's not quite at the "point of no return" but it could be even if Kubo throws away the last arc and just throws the kitchen sink at people for the one after this and the people still don't come back.

 

[saladesu]

As promotion for Shueisha's NatsuComi 2011 (Summer Comic Fair), they got their mangaka to "tweet" about their summers and add an illustration or image. 4 get added daily. So far:

Spoiler: Kishimoto, Sakaki, Ohba, Fujimaki

Masashi Kishimoto (Naruto): When I was a kid, I wanted a rhinoceros beetle, so I asked one of the older kids in the neighbourhood how to catch one. I believed that rumor that "when a drone beetle molts, it evolves into a rhino beetle," so to me, the drone beetles in the garden were... The brilliance of the green is great, isn't it!!!!

Fujimaki Tadatoshi (Kuroko no Basuke): A camp I attended while I was in the Golf Club left the greatest impression on me. We were hitting golf balls as if our lives depended on it, with our bags on our shoulders and the sun above blazing down upon us. I was bad at golf and I've got a ton of painful memories of it, but I think it was satisfying nonetheless.

Ohba Tsugumi (Bakuman): Ever since 5 years ago, it's become a tradition for me to go down to a ditch near my place in the dead of night when summer rolls around to hear the call of the bullfrogs. I certainly don't go alone, but if you were to ask me who I go with, then I'd have to say that I really can't tell.

Sakaki Kenji (Enigma): When summer comes, I feel like going to the beach. The seas around Peel Island, one of the Bonin Islands at which I arrived a few years back after a boat journey of over 25 hours, is unforgettable. I only stayed there for a number of months, but I want to swim with the dolphins and sea turtles again.

 

[Newkerzy]

WANT TO SEE SAKAKI-SENSEI IN BIKINIS!!!!! LOL

Anyways, Kishi tweeted?? is that his account or something?? I sure as hell will follow him.

 

[Kaiten]

It's hard comparing one series to another in the sense that different audiences want different things. If I have to speculate, Bleach fans want to see action scenes, bankai, and their favorite characters. Kubo has left it so that he can still give them that, and reset the reset. Ichigo recovers his powers and all of a sudden Hitsugaya and Rukia are back. Aizen was defeated but not killed, he could always come back. And plenty of captains still have not revealed their bankai. Hell, Urahara, Isshin, and Yuruichi still have not even shown shikai. There are more ways for Bleach to recover than there is for it to stay in the bottom. It's unusual to see a series as popular as Bleach in the bottom five, and speculating on it's future makes for interesting conversation, but this is most likely an arc getting rejected, not the series.

 

[Shinsatsu]

It's hard comparing one series to another in the sense that different audiences want different things. If I have to speculate, Bleach fans want to see action scenes, bankai, and their favorite characters. Kubo has left it so that he can still give them that, and reset the reset. Ichigo recovers his powers and all of a sudden Hitsugaya and Rukia are back. Aizen was defeated but not killed, he could always come back. And plenty of captains still have not revealed their bankai. Hell, Urahara, Isshin, and Yuruichi still have not even shown shikai. There are more ways for Bleach to recover than there is for it to stay in the bottom. It's unusual to see a series as popular as Bleach in the bottom five, and speculating on it's future makes for interesting conversation, but this is most likely an arc getting rejected, not the series.

Yes, I think that there are tons of possibilities for Bleach to recover. But recovering after a failed arc is way harder than getting back your rank after several bad chapters. Kubo has to make his move soon. It is not wise to annoy the audience. He's not gaining any new fans, instead, he's losing some of the ones he had.

 

[StrangerAtaru]

But how long are readers willing to give Kubo the shadow of the doubt? Even if a popular character returns, it doesn't guarantee anything. If everything just collapses and the readers don't give him any more chances, then there will be consequences. Jump can only support someone so far with how the magazine is run.

 

[Westlo]

Yes I know Bleach is obviously more mainstream and many still say "it's part of the Shonen Trio" (well not really anymore...I think Toriko has wedged into that third slot bit by bit),

Shouldn't we wait for Toriko to outsell Fairy Tail, Ao no Exorcist and D.Gray Man before were start to put it above Bleach and apart of the Big 3? There's no denying it has been ranking well but lets see it actually turn those rankings into sales before we start to call it a new member of the Big 3.

 

[Jaymie]

If you go by sales, HxH is a part of the Big 3, not Bleach. If you go by rankings, Bleach was once a part of the Big 3 before Kubo screwed things up. It takes a while for people to adjust to change, but I definitely think that Bleach is out of the Big 3 at this point. It will take some seriously good chapters to get it out of this trench.

 

[kewl0210]

I still say that the term "big three" is absolute crap. There are more than 3 big series in Jump. Ones that sell well and have animes too. And even if something happens like Naruto ends or Bleach does worse, there can still be plenty of "big" series. Series that sell well but are on the decline, series that don't sell well but are gaining fanbases, series with new animes and old or ended animes, and series that do well in different magazines, too. Nobody in Japan uses that stupid phrase... It's just an arbitrary phrase because those 3 series started around the same time and all have long running animes so there are people that read/watch them and nothing else and try to say one's better than the other.

 

[Kaiten]

Bleach has been running for over ten years now. Like it or not it does get the benefit of the doubt. This is not the same as a new series or marginal hit slumping. In manga terms, Bleach is a multi-generational hit. Bleach's original fans likely don't even read Weekly Jump anymore. And while we who post in this thread may not like the direction Bleach has taken since the Soul Society arc has ended, Japanese fans clearly have. It has consistently ranked in the top five, and almost never been out of the top ten in the last four years. There is no reason to believe he had been on thin ice for the decline in story telling of the last few years. It appears that he is being punished for taking what should have been a short, transitional arc and stretching it past six months. Fans seem to be sick of reading anime filler, that's all.

It is also among Japans best selling manga, in the tier right beneath the One Piece, Naruto, and Kimi ni Todoke. Bleach is a big property, with a lot of people making money off of it, not just Shueisha. There is a seven year old anime and loads of merchandise to consider, not just a manga. If the rankings don't recover and sales begin to decline, they will cancel it. That is not a question. But that is a long term proposition. There is not a chance it is canceled until late in 2012. To many people have to much at stake for a quick cancellation.

---------- Post added at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 PM ----------

I still say that the term "big three" is absolute crap.

Hunter x Hunter is the only other series in Jump that sells even close to what Bleach does, and it is only published seasonally. Were it a full time series it would have to be in the conversation. Bakuman, Reborn and Gintama are sizable hits, but well below Bleach. Anything else is marginal, Toriko and Mago sell about as well as To Love Ru, though until volume 12 comes out we won't know if the anime had any effect on the former. One Piece and Naruto are so far out of every other series league it's not even worth comparing. Only three manga sell a million copies per volume right now, One Piece and Naruto are two of them. Until another regularly serialized series starts selling 700-800,000 per volume of every volume, I'm cool with the big 3 label. As long as everyone realizes that is the Jump big 3. The manga big 3 is One Piece, Naruto, and Kimi no Todoke.

 

[perroloco]

Kaiten wrote:
Fans seem to be sick of reading anime filler, that's all.

Woow.. You said it quite nice, I mean BLEACH filler was better than what Kubo has been writting so far IMO, but well.. BLEACH filler had the fan-favorite characters and BANKAIS.

Kaiten wrote:
It is also among Japans best selling manga, in the tier right beneath the One Piece, Naruto, and Kimi ni Todoke. Bleach is a big property, with a lot of people making money off of it, not just Shueisha. There is a seven year old anime and loads of merchandise to consider, not just a manga. If the rankings don't recover and sales begin to decline, they will cancel it. That is not a question. But that is a long term proposition. There is not a chance it is canceled until late in 2012. To many people have to much at stake for a quick cancellation.

Exactly, people tend to forget about the big picture.
Think of this, REBORN! which isn´t as big as BLEACH (In sales and TOC popularity) lost its anime adaptation around a year ago (?) and its still being serialized, sure REBORN! didn´t fall that quick and low in the TOC as BLEACH did but BLEACH will continue at the very least until Kubo Tite does a good ending.. What I mean is JUMP will give Kubo at least time to have a proper ending to BLEACH..

 

[StrangerAtaru]

Exactly, people tend to forget about the big picture.
Think of this, REBORN! which isn´t as big as BLEACH (In sales and TOC popularity) lost its anime adaptation around a year ago (?) and its still being serialized, sure REBORN! didn´t fall that quick and low in the TOC as BLEACH did but BLEACH will continue at the very least until Kubo Tite does a good ending.. What I mean is JUMP will give Kubo at least time to have a proper ending to BLEACH..

Not necessarily. If the series does remain down for a while, Jump will force Bleach to end regardless of whether it's a good ending or a bad ending.

And while I feel like I'm being ganged up on (what else is new, that happens to me everywhere I go), my comment about the Big 3 just talks about Jump. I get there are a zillion other manga and a zillion other magazines out there but when I say Big 3, I just refer to Jump at this time mostly because of how others obsessively use it.

 

[Asgaroth]

Not necessarily. If the series does remain down for a while, Jump will force Bleach to end regardless of whether it's a good ending or a bad ending.

not sure about the good/bad part, but he will get the ending he wants?! i mean not the one he wants to do in 10 years, but he will get enough time to prepare it and execute it. even psyren got enough time to get a good and not rushed ending.

 

[pein1991]

Has anyone had a read of Harisugawa in Mirror world? i cant find any raws as of yet.

 

[Negative Syndicate]

Has anyone had a read of Harisugawa in Mirror world? i cant find any raws as of yet.

It didn't out yet.

 

[pein1991]

But I have read other series from that same issue.

 

[xi0]

But I have read other series from that same issue.

Edited Mangas made from private raws, not public ones. Please keep that in mind.

 

[Negative Syndicate]

But I have read other series from that same issue.

Because other series have released doesn't tell us that another sereis from same issue will out along with it. Some people only upload series that they like or found.

 

[Jaiden82]

I really hate to say this but I really do have to bring Bo-bobo back into the equation when talking about Bleach's current position. Sawai pulled something similar to what Kubo just did in his "reset" by way of starting a pt. 2: using the same characters but basically a different story with only a couple of connections between the original and the new series. (he sort of set up a few things in the final phases of the original series but if you cut them out then basically you could just end it with the end of chp. 230 and you wouldn't be missing a thing outside an excellent final chapter at the very, very end of Shinsetsu that finishes the series perfectly) At the start, the anime had ended and it still had a bit of support from the magazine, but the series did plummet due to the rebellion. Mind you there were some interesting story ideas and concepts, not all of it worked and the fans had enough. With the failure of some of this, Sawai was under pressure to bring people back so he essentially had a blow-out final arc where he threw whatever he could, both in classics and in new stuff, to save the series. While the final arc probably was way more interesting than the earlier stuff, the damage was already done no matter what he did...and ultimately the series was brought to it's conclusion.

Now why do I bring up Bo-bobo in this comment on Bleach's current position? Because I see something similar: a series that had been going on and "finished" a storyline, but with the author deciding to do something different for the next one. Yes I know Bleach is obviously more mainstream and many still say "it's part of the Shonen Trio" (well not really anymore...I think Toriko has wedged into that third slot bit by bit), but the lesson from Bo-bobo is this: even if you throw every bell and whistle at a dying series, that isn't guaranteed to save it. It could prolonge it but nothing is certain and Bleach just feels like...well it's not quite at the "point of no return" but it could be even if Kubo throws away the last arc and just throws the kitchen sink at people for the one after this and the people still don't come back.

Don't think Kubo would pull something like that with Bleach how Bobo's managka did. I know he's drawn out the arc longer than he's supposed to but I think he's setting it up perfectly to where he can transition into the new arc. Yes the story progression is slow but I feel if he rushes than he would be really screwed and he wouldn't be able to tell the story like he wanted to. All and all I think Bleach is going to be ok but that might just be me being optimistic. Like I said before I don't think it's time to write its obituary yet.

It's unusual to see a series as popular as Bleach in the bottom five, and speculating on it's future makes for interesting conversation, but this is most likely an arc getting rejected, not the series.

I think so too. This arc hasn't garnered as many fans. Bleach actually lost some fans along the way. Hopefully when Ichigo get's his shinigami powers back and the shinigami returns those Bleach fans return.