Special Move PoT and SPoT Technique Tier List

[Fuji Shusuke]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

Do you reckon Kabaji can copy Zero Shiki Serve?

 

[Kaoz]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

I reckon Niou's ability is amazing, but Kabaji's Simple Minded isn't near as good. Niou could become Date if he watches him and do Danji No Haru. Like you said, Kabaji's limited by his physical abilities.

I'm 99% sure that Niou is also limited by his own abilities, and I doubt that he could use Danji no Haru on the same level as Date himself... I would guess it'd be even weaker than Kabaji's actually.

Do you reckon Kabaji can copy Zero Shiki Serve?

It took him what... 5 games... to copy Hyakuren? Given that ZSS seems to be an even more complex move, I doubt he could copy it within one set.

 

[LetalHawk]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

Then the only way that Danji no Haru would be exactly the same is with Muga.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

Say bye bye to your stamina then. If in Muga, even Echizen would probably use up 70% of his stamina when using Danji no Haru.

---------- Post added at 01:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 AM ----------

Also, I don't think I can move Simple Minded Absorption down. I can only move Shapeshifting Illusion up.

 

[Kaoz]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

Then the only way that Danji no Haru would be exactly the same is with Muga.

From what Date said, I would assume that the power of Danji no Haru depends on the user's power... so basically, only someone whose power is at least on the same level as Date could potentially use it on the same level.

 

[LetalHawk]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

From what Date said, I would assume that the power of Danji no Haru depends on the user's power... so basically, only someone whose power is at least on the same level as Date could potentially use it on the same level.

Or Echizen using Hyakuren - Double Return, that way, the stamina effect isn't a matter anymore.

 

[Ninomiya]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

I'm 99% sure that Niou is also limited by his own abilities, and I doubt that he could use Danji no Haru on the same level as Date himself... I would guess it'd be even weaker than Kabaji's actually.

Based on?

He copied Tezuka's Phantom, Zone, physique to break the counters and Muga doors.
Beside how long it took him to become and complete these moves, Look at where he instantly became Shiraishi.
And then his Mountain training which let him become Mutsu and Kikumaru.

The fact he can become Kikumaru instantly and use his Acrobatics show that chances are he is less limited than Kabaji. I dont see Kabaji doing acrobatics like Mukahi and Kikumaru hahaha.

I dont see Kabaji copying ZSS. He is yet to even copy a serve in the series.




It took him what... 5 games... to copy Hyakuren? Given that ZSS seems to be an even more complex move, I doubt he could copy it within one set.[/QUOTE]

 

[Kaoz]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

Based on?

It's pretty late, so I'll keep this short...

Why do you think his technique is called Illusion? Because it's the real thing?

 

[LetalHawk]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

It's pretty late, so I'll keep this short...

Why do you think his technique is called Illusion? Because it's the real thing?

The perfect way to copy is Muga, Illusion can't copy certain moves depending on the user's physical abilities. I'm pretty sure that Echizen could copy ZZS after seeing it many many times. Otherwise, I see Niou above Kabaji, he perfectly copied Tezuka (only missed ZZS), Kabaji took 5 games to copy Hyakuren, Niou took 4, and he also copies Phantom and Saiki without any problem.

He can become any player he wants, how can Kabaji surpass that?. Niou >> Kabaji.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

Moved Shapeshifting Illusion up.

 

[Sai]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

Niou's Illusion and Kabaji's Super Copy (Yes, that's what the Databook calls it) are both somewhat hard to decipher since they can seemingly copy the different aura's too.

I'd wager that Niou's Illusion isn't a real copy of the aura, but some sort of trick that makes the opponent's/partner think that he is really doing it when he in fact is not. In fact, though it wasn't shown in the original monthly release in SQ, Niou's copy of Kikumaru in recent chapters had an otherworldy glow/overlay to it to make it look less physically there (it was shown in the actual volume release). To me, that at least tells me it's all smoke and mirrors to an extent.

(As to why Synchro worked, I'm thinking of it like Zabuza's initial assessment of Sharingan way back in the beginning of Naruto. It works because Niou has somehow hypnotized his opponent into synchronizing with him).

This would explain why Yagyuu was able to break through all of Niou's tricks. he knows the secret to all of them from having been his partner for so long. I liken it to Niou being a magician, but Yagyuu already knowing the secret to all his 'magic'. By knowing the secret to it, there is no more 'magic' to it. Which is why Niou didn't use Illusion on Yagyuu and had to resort to smaller actually physical tricks (like the blood).


As for Kabaji's Super Copy, I think he's actually doing the real move, he just simply cannot hold on to it. In the match versus Danji and Ban, Ban used a phrase (I believe it was Tsukeyaiba) which is often used to describe how a student crams for a test so that he retains it for just long enough to pass the test, but forgets it the next day. Such can be said of Kabaji's Super Copy. Because of his simple and child like mind, he can imitate just about anything (as long as he has the natual skill to do it, so he can't copy things like Magic Volley since he lacks Jirou's same super flexible wrists) with his ability to observe even the smallest details. However, he can only do so while actually seeing it done.

There was an article in Vol. 5 of Pair Puri I took the time to translate regarding the intricacies of Muga no Kyouchi. It includes Niou and Kabaji in the list of users, however, if you scroll to the bottom, there is an interesting blurb regarding the debate on if these are really considered the attainment of Muga: http://translations.shamannet.com/?p=296

 

[Kaoz]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

Regarding Illusion, here's something I wrote up a little over a year ago...

Spoiler

Technique Analysis - Illusion (Niou)

1) Gathering Data
2) Copying Techniques
3) Limitations
4) Others


1) Gathering Data

This step can be divided into the pre match phase and the match itself:

-Pre-Match:
In this phase, Niou researches the team he will face and chooses a number of persons he considers strong against the members of that team. After deciding, he studies the techniques, playstyle and habits of the players he intends to copy.

-In-Match:
During the first few games of the match itself, Niou observes the opponent he is actually playing. He is most likely analyzing that player's specific habits and mind set to figure out who he should copy and how the techniques of that player apply to his opponent.


2) Copying Techniques

It has to be noted that Niou cannot use the techniques he copies to their full potential. For example, when using Tezuka Zone, he does not know which spin he has to put on the ball to guruantee it's drawn towards him (like Tezuka), but rather uses the knowledge of the opponent that he gained in the previous step to predict the spin needed.


3) Limitations

Regarding the Illusion itself, Niou can basically pretend to be anyone and is most likely only limited to the size and shape of the person he wants to become. Handedness could be mentioned, but Niou is able to play with his right hand as well, even if it's unknown whether it's as strong as his left. There are a few more limitations to what techniques he can copy though. For once, Niou needs the physical capabilities to copy that technique, furthermore he needs a basic understanding on how they are performed. The second point is probably less important the more time he has to prepare.

A few examples:

-Tezuka Zone
Tezuka Zone has been used since Kanto, so Niou had a lot of time to research it. He cannot use it the same way Tezuka can though and has to rely on his data to fix that flaw.

-Tezuka Phantom:
Tezuka Phantom has a principle similiar to Tezuka Zone, so even though it was shown only a short time before Niou's own match, he could use his understanding of the Zone to figure out Phantom's mechanics. Again, he is limited when using it.

Another point to note is, that Niou cannot use the same technique over an extended period of time, as the opponent is more likely to become aware of it's flaws, which would break the Illusion.


4) Others

Illusion is just that, an illusion. That means that it is highly dependant on the opponent's mental state and can be broken when the opponent overcomes the mental barrier. The time needed to break the illusion is also influenced by how well Niou can copy a player.

It's a bit old and I haven't updated it, so the Mutsu match for example isn't included, but that's basically how I think it works.

I should probably add some of the things Sai mentioned at some point...

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

Super Copy eh? Well I think that's a failure. I'm sticking with Simple Minded Absorption. Also, I call it Shapeshifting Illusion because there is Kevin's Illusion from the anime (fail I know). So I guess I can drop the "shapeshifting" and give Kevin's one Ball Cloning Illusion or something along those lines.

 

[Sai]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

I would just say Illusion Vs. Illusion Shot.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

I'll do that Sai.

 

[Ninomiya]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

It's pretty late, so I'll keep this short...

Why do you think his technique is called Illusion? Because it's the real thing?

That doesnt answer the question regardless.
It doesnt mean it makes Niou more limited. Kabaji has shown to also be limited.
Niou becoming Tezuka is far more useful than Kabaji just copying it.

Niou VS Kaido.
Kabaji VS Kaido. Kabaji has good stamina. Kaido has beast stamina. Thats it.

Niou VS Kaido. Niou takes 4 games to become Tezuka. Game Set Niou.

Super Copy eh? Well I think that's a failure. I'm sticking with Simple Minded Absorption. Also, I call it Shapeshifting Illusion because there is Kevin's Illusion from the anime (fail I know). So I guess I can drop the "shapeshifting" and give Kevin's one Ball Cloning Illusion or something along those lines.

Hahaha if its in the Databook then its offically Super Copy lol.

---------- Post added at 12:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 PM ----------

The perfect way to copy is Muga, Illusion can't copy certain moves depending on the user's physical abilities. I'm pretty sure that Echizen could copy ZZS after seeing it many many times. Otherwise, I see Niou above Kabaji, he perfectly copied Tezuka (only missed ZZS), Kabaji took 5 games to copy Hyakuren, Niou took 4, and he also copies Phantom and Saiki without any problem.

He can become any player he wants, how can Kabaji surpass that?. Niou >> Kabaji.

A perfect example that if anything, Niou is the one that is less limited than Kabaji and that if Niou became Date, his Danji no Haru would be stronger.

 

[Kaoz]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

A perfect example that if anything, Niou is the one that is less limited than Kabaji and that if Niou became Date, his Danji no Haru would be stronger.

Kabaji couldn't replicate Danji no Haru's power. Date explained that it was because Kabaji lacked the physical strength. Kabaji is physically stronger than Niou.
Following that, if Niou used Danji no Haru, because it's effectiveness relies on the user's own power, Niou's copy would be less powerful than Kabaji's and far less powerful than Date's original.

This ties into the point I was trying to make with that question.
Even if Niou were to "become" Date, his Danji no Haru would be weaker since he lacks Date's power.

 

[Ninomiya]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

Kabaji couldn't replicate Danji no Haru's power. Date explained that it was because Kabaji lacked the physical strength. Kabaji is physically stronger than Niou.
Following that, if Niou used Danji no Haru, because it's effectiveness relies on the user's own power, Niou's copy would be less powerful than Kabaji's and far less powerful than Date's original.

This ties into the point I was trying to make with that question.
Even if Niou were to "become" Date, his Danji no Haru would be weaker since he lacks Date's power.

I doubt he has Kikumaru's flexibility or Tezuka's Technique and Physique. I doubt he has Shiraishi's technique too.
But he performed them all perfectly. Except Tezuka w/out ZSS.
Kikumaru's ability to perform Acrobatics and Tezuka's left arm to do Doubled Return are perfect examples.

Unless you see Kabaji using Acrobatic Play against Kikumaru or Mukahi. Which I doubt would be to the standard Niou would perform it at.

 

[LetalHawk]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

Kabaji couldn't replicate Danji no Haru's power. Date explained that it was because Kabaji lacked the physical strength. Kabaji is physically stronger than Niou.
Following that, if Niou used Danji no Haru, because it's effectiveness relies on the user's own power, Niou's copy would be less powerful than Kabaji's and far less powerful than Date's original.

This ties into the point I was trying to make with that question.
Even if Niou were to "become" Date, his Danji no Haru would be weaker since he lacks Date's power.

Then we can assume that if your physical abilities aren't strong enough, now matter how much you try, you can't do the real thing.

And again, regardless of that, Hyakuren would be the best thing to copy. I mean, imagine a match with Echizen vs Date, Date uses Danji No Haru and somehow Echizen survives. Ok, then he activates Hyakuren and returns it doubled, wouldn't that work? Also, the stamina isn't a matter, because the Hyakuren lessens greatly the stamina loss.

 

[Ninomiya]

Re: PoT and NPoT Technique Tier List

Then we can assume that if your physical abilities aren't strong enough, now matter how much you try, you can't do the real thing.

And again, regardless of that, Hyakuren would be the best thing to copy. I mean, imagine a match with Echizen vs Date, Date uses Danji No Haru and somehow Echizen survives. Ok, then he activates Hyakuren and returns it doubled, wouldn't that work? Also, the stamina isn't a matter, because the Hyakuren lessens greatly the stamina loss.

Hyakuren only works with shots. End of. Niou and Kabaji can replicate even Play Styles and Auras. Hyakku Ren is strictly shots.