Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Schabrak]

For the past weeks each of you has been throwing blocks of text against each other without agreeing on a single point, so here is the question: What is the purpose of this back and forth aside from repeating what you've already posted at least a dozen[it's been ~50 posts since the argument began] times already again? You could like put the ego aside and agree to disagree and be done with this whole mess?

#teamImpossibility

 

[Rikudou King]

For the past weeks each of you has been throwing blocks of text against each other without agreeing on a single point, so here is the question: What is the purpose of this back and forth aside from repeating what you've already posted at least a dozen[it's been ~50 posts since the argument began] times already again? You could like put the ego aside and agree to disagree and be done with this whole mess?

#teamImpossibility

You cut me deep Schabrak, you cut me deep.

Come over to my side, I got pizza!

 

[Impossibility]

For the past weeks each of you has been throwing blocks of text against each other without agreeing on a single point, so here is the question: What is the purpose of this back and forth aside from repeating what you've already posted at least a dozen[it's been ~50 posts since the argument began] times already again? You could like put the ego aside and agree to disagree and be done with this whole mess?

#teamImpossibility

In the interest of everyone, and just my general time and energy, I will agree to disagree should Rikudou King agree to do the same, particularly since the manga addressed most of my initial concerns that spurred this debate weeks ago. Besides, we have another debate going on that began about two years ago and was recently rekindled, I'm even feeling a bit nostalgic.

And by the way, your support means the world to me.

 

[Dark blood]

Guys can anyone tell me when did Naruto Learn that he is the son of Fourth Hokage ???

I Guess that was after the pain invasion when he went 8 tails Kyubi ..

 

[Exodi]

Guys can anyone tell me when did Naruto Learn that he is the son of Fourth Hokage ???

I Guess that was after the pain invasion when he went 8 tails Kyubi ..

I'm pretty sure the moment Naruto himself found out was when Minato appeared during Naruto's fight with Pain. So, yes, you're right.

I think the moment Kishimoto confirmed it in the story was between a talk Tsunade and Jiraiya were having. Before Jiraiya went to go fight Pain.
Everyone knew but I don't think Kishimoto ever confirmed it before then.

 

[KiSwordsman]

DID WE SEE GOHAN GO SUPER SAIYAN 2 BEFORE DEFEATING CELL???

Ummmm

Spoiler

I'm going to go with...yes…?

That's ignoring the fact that this isn't Dragonball Z, so the same rules don't apply.

It's different when a character sprouts out a new technique (kabuto) not previously mentioned before. This is a character sprouting an existing technique with literally no reference to it. Even brand-new techniques Are sometimes not really acceptable based purely on their level of convenience. (izanami)

 

[Fox666]

At least Goku mentioned he witnessed Gohan's power before.

 

[Dark blood]

Do any of you guys see all the villages merging and becoming one village Under the leadership of naruto or under the leadership of a council consisting of 5-6 elite shinobis ???

 

[Prince Sasuke]

Do any of you guys see all the villages merging and becoming one village Under the leadership of naruto or under the leadership of a council consisting of 5-6 elite shinobis ???

No. Naruto is to young, irresponsible, and stupid to lead anyone. The shinobis are going back to their own countries and villages.

 

[Rikudobito]

Do any of you guys see all the villages merging and becoming one village Under the leadership of naruto or under the leadership of a council consisting of 5-6 elite shinobis ???

Maybe but what about the feudal lords lol ...they cannot elect only one of that particular nation that they will "create" and let the 4 unselected ones get the hell out of there.

Though, it'd be better if they became as one...for me Naruto has what it takes to rule a single utopia...but is he lacking in cleverness and strictness to be able to do so? Yes ...is he mature enough? probably yes or no...seeing how he talked to Obito...I'd be leaning towards yes but I don't think he's ready to so.

As for Sasuke, he has what Naruto doesn't have while Naruto has what Sasuke doesn't have ( in terms of ideals and personality ). That's why If they merge views...that will off-set what the other doesn't have...this will lead to better prospects in terms of efficiency of their ideas.

 

[Dark blood]

Maybe but what about the feudal lords lol ...they cannot elect only one of that particular nation that they will "create" and let the 4 unselected ones get the hell out of there.

May be Ninjas can form one single alliance and work for any feudal lords who hire them.

Though, it'd be better if they became as one...for me Naruto has what it takes to rule a single utopia...but is he lacking in cleverness and strictness to be able to do so? Yes ...is he mature enough? probably yes or no...seeing how he talked to Obito...I'd be leaning towards yes but I don't think he's ready to so.

As for Sasuke, he has what Naruto doesn't have while Naruto has what Sasuke doesn't have ( in terms of ideals and personality ). That's why If they merge views...that will off-set what the other doesn't have...this will lead to better prospects in terms of efficiency of their ideas.

This time people may not repeat the mistake like they did in time of Hashirama and Madara and can make Naruto and Sauke Co - Kage or may be Sasuke can work as an advisor for him

 

[Rikudou King]

when obito was the jyuubi the black chakra whatever it's he ripped minato's arm off and it's no capable of regenerating because of that black chakra

I was talking about an arm made out of the Kyuubi's chakra, which we saw Naruto easily creating. Minato lacking a real arm should have had no effect on him imagining a whole new one from his cloak.

 

[Josef]

Coming Soon, Please Participate!

 

[Rikudou King]

1. Huh? Tobirama already claimed that. So thats already a manga fact.
2. Only? It's more like it's one of minato's cool moment.
3. It is. For minato who was able to become the kyubi's jinchuuriki is kinda an accomplishment.
4. After minato activated his rikudou mode and then he tag his seal to hiruzen and tobirama. Tobirama even said that minato is a quick thinker while hiruzen said that minato is still the same as ever.
5. No. T'was minato's power/hiraishin who did that. He used the hiraishin after all.
6. Maybe. But for me who just made an assumption about that needs to praise him with that. Learning the senjutsu isn't really that piece of cake yah know?

Minato being considered as a failure is nothing more than your very own opinion. Well,it's just a matter of interpretation after all. But please, don't make it sound as if kishi really considered him as that. Idk, but I didn't feel anything of that sort, really. What happened to minato is just part of him as a ninja and as an ET. It didn't really ruin his legacy as far as I'm concerned.

1. My point is that despite it being said, it has never been shown. Tobirama has not only kept up with Minato when they have used Hiraishin together, but he even came in and saved them all before Minato could act.
2. Well, during this arc I meant.
3. Not really. Either he was able to do so because his half of the Kyuubi is nice, in which case there is no accomplishment in doing so, or he was able to do just because, in which case it completely makes all of Naruto's effort to do so meaningless.
4. That really doesn't equal what you said.
5. But it was Naruto's plan, and it was Naruto's power that connected everyone together so that they could be teleported in the first place. Without that, Minato would have been incapable of saving anyone.
6. "Using" senjutsu isn't a piece of cake. Learning it is simple.

No, it's not merely my opinion. Even Minato himself considers himself a failure, though not for the same reasons. How does Kishi not, after what we have seen? Heck, even in the current chapter, Gai was allowed to not only dodge Madara's attack but push him back. If Gai was capable of doing all that with just his physical seed, Minato should have been capable of better with his teleportation. At the very least, he should have been capable of dodging Madara by teleporting away.

 

[KiSwordsman]

it should stand that just vaguely stating things doesn't make a valid argument you say the frog techniques that jiraiya uses but state not even 1 name lol must be a bad joke cuz after that you try using the fact that jiraiya supposidly had a 4 man squad even though we never are even told a name of the other 2 and the ONLY pupils ever stated that were jiraiyas being Nagato, Yahiko, Konan, Naruto, & Minato. rofl you say Association isn't enough but there is no association of Jiraiya + your two mystery pupils who you claim by the logic of association would also know sage mode lol. you do realize you just make up characters and claim they should have the same association with jiraiya as minato the proclaimed savior of the world by jiraiya and minato names his son after jiraiyas book. But sure kid im sure your imaginary 2/4 shinobi in this 4 man squad you speak of definitely should've been passed jiraiyas technique lol.


also like how you say the only person who learned techniques from there teacher was sasuke with kakashi even though orochimaru definitely has priority over kakashi in the "Sasuke sensei" bracket.

I shouldn't have to Name them, but okay.

• Toad Flatness — Shadow Manipulation Technique
• Toad Oil Bullet
• Turning into a Frog Technique
• Summoning: Toad Mouth Bind

There's four. And like I have already stated it would have been more sensible to believe that he knew these based purely on the fact that he has the summoning contract as well.

I assure you, it's not a joke. I even linked you the page. It also does make sense within context because right next to him, you see Orochimaru, and his student, Hiruzen and his students, and finally Minato and his. But if you want to write them off as imaginary, even though they are on the page in front of you, then that's on you. I only made the joke of them knowing Sage mode simply because you stated that Minato should know it purely because he is the "Savior of the world" and Jiraiya's student. You also made the claim that it was the only thing, or excuse me only amazing thing Jiraiya had to offer. So by that logic, those two "imaginary" students should know Sage mode as well. However, that was the point, he had two other students we know Nothing about so making the assumption that Minato should know sage mode by virtue of being Jiraiya's student is incorrect, because in your own words, it was the only amazing thing Jiraiya had to offer, so those two would know it as well by that logic. but coming to that conclusion would be silly because, as stated we know jack all about them.

And finally, if you paid more attention to what I posted, Which you apparently did not, you'll see that I was talking about team seven specifically. As in, Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, and Kakashi. I even said, "out of all of team seven." But it seems as though you put more effort into trying to belittle what I was saying.

Once again, the point still stands.

 

[Prince Sasuke]

I've been reading and watching the anime of the Zabuza arc. What I found really strange is how fast Naruto and Sasuke advanced during that mission. When naruto and Sasuke first went up against a Zabuza water clone, they had no chance of defeating him. After three days of tree climbing, Sasuke ways able to defeat 6 clones in 5 seconds.

Later Zabuza went on to say no one can match Haku's speed and that Haku was even stronger than him. When Sasuke fought Haku, he'd not only beat him, but was faster. Of course this was all before Haku used crystal ice mirrors.

This may sound strange but am I the only one that think Sasuke would've beaten Haku if he could activate his sharingan at the beginning of the match. And that naruto and Sasuke as a team could've beaten Zabuza if he don't use hidden mist jutsu?

I guess my point is: Zabuza and Haku are probably the most overrated shinobi in the manga... Any thoughts?

 

[Impossibility]

I think Kishi has always had some difficulties when it comes to keeping power levels in perspective. In an effort to make Naruto and Sasuke's opponent look more fearsome, he might've oversold Haku quite a bit, although I think much of the comments about Haku probably should be considered as potential more than anything else, mixed in with some of Zabuza's personal feelings. At the same time, he wanted to be able to show Sasuke's improvement, particularly in comparison to Naruto, who needed a bit of a boost, and likely wanted to avoid a situation where he was fodder for some other kid. It was a balancing act that produced some strange results when one looks back and puts it in context. This wouldn't be the only example of something like this when looking back, sometimes the hype is just laughable.

 

[raoniluna]

Re: Naruto 669 Discussion / 670 Predictions

Otherwise they violate the reader's suspension of unbelief and create cognitive dissonance.

Being more specific: Why this, among other things you said, shouold be used to rate writing?
I will have to go a long way with you...

Edit: I wasn't specific enough. Why do you think that writing should be related to the reader? My whole point is that it doesn't.
Edit2: Not just writing but any kind of art, I thought I said it before. I obviously acknowledge EVERY single one of the "rules" you posted and what their importance, you missed my point completely. But just answer my new question (it is in fact the same as before)

 

[Invader]

Re: Naruto 669 Discussion / 670 Predictions

Why all the (useless) rules you posted or anyone could post should be used to rate all writing?

As a bit of housekeeping, first - I'm going to abbreviate the above plot conventions at "CCESD" for simplicity's sake. I don't want to type the terms over and over again. So when I say "CCESD" I am referring to Continuity, Consistency, Emotion, Structure, and Devices.

Second - I'm going to rewrite your question into something less biased...

"Why should Continuity, Consistency, Emotion Creating Events, Structure, and Devices be used to evaluate all writing?"

You will notice I dumped the loaded word "useless", and replaced "rate" with "evaluate". The reason for dropping "useless" is self-evident. And as a statistician, the word "rate" implies you are making at least a ordinal level scoring of the writing using CCESD as a mathematical mechanism. I.E. you could look at a chapter of Naruto and say "this chapter scored a 4 on plot, where last week the chapter was only a 3." I wouldn't go that far with it. Certainly you could apply a nominal level evaluation where one chapter was arguably "better" than another, but appending a "rating" score? Not so much. So I would say, "EVALUATE all writing" - which is a more generic term that says a person is sifting the writing's adherence to CCESD without requiring them to give some sort of score or figure.

Now we have an acceptable question from which to proceed... I'd quibble a bit over your use of the absolute "all" as well, but that's nit-picking.

Why should the element of plot in writing be evaluated with CCESD? Because Plot is an essential component of any work of fictional writing, and without Plot any piece of writing is missing one of its key features. Therefore any writing that has no plot (or in which the plot is very bad) detracts from the work as a whole. Much in the same way as if you are evaluating the music of a band and find that the drummer is off-beat and poor at his job. The band may have a good lead singer, bass, etc.... But if the drummer is lousy your experience is still going to be effected. Replace that bad drummer with a good one and you have something you can enjoy without reservation. Because CCESD are the essential components of a good plot you can (and must) judge the writer's performance regarding plot by how well he handles the CCESD elements. If writer comes up as failing or doing poorly with those elements, then it impacts the work as a whole negatively. Good characters, setting, theme, and other elements may still be present - but they become cumbered by the negative experience with the plot.

But your question may be more existential, more along the lines of "Why are we using THESE plot elements (CCESD) and not some other set of entirely different ones?" If that is your approach, then you would need to supply the elements of plot that you feel are being overlooked or that you feel should replace the standard CCESD elements.

Another perspective you may be using is one of the relative valuation of plot versus other writing elements. I.E. You may be saying, "OK - Naruto may be currently doing a bad job of adhering to CCESD plot conventions - BUT the fact that it is doing badly in "plot" doesn't mean that Naruto is bad writing because the elements of Characterization, Setting, and Theme are so strong that any detriment caused by poor plot is hidden by the strength in these other things." This is - I think - what you're really trying to say. In essence, you're wondering why people could possibly complain about lousy plot when everything else is so fantastic. I.E. You are valuating "plot" as being far below other writing convention. If this is the case, then you would have to supply the reasoning as to why you feel that plot should be ignored here. It is established that competent writing for plot is a basic requirement. Why should we be ignoring that in this case?

 

[raoniluna]

Re: Naruto 669 Discussion / 670 Predictions

A lot of text

None of the above. As I told you, I understand perfectly what you have been writting here. It is pretty basic really. My question is philosophical. I underderstand perfectly how all of these things make it easier to understand, keep a good rythm in the story, make us want to read the next episode, help us connect to the characters and so on...

That's why I told you that you did not understand. My question remains.

I could explain all that I already explained here before, the main argument is that we know almost nothing of Kishimoto's world and mechanics so a lot of "asspull" or "deus ex machina" is completely reasonable, but, I don't want to do that because that's not what I believe in. Another guy asked me: Do you seriously believe that we should accept whatever Kishimoto wants to write? And yes, that is my stance about art. It is not up to us or anyone to judge.

So, let's pretend someone hits a drum, with no rythm at all and cals it music. Of course musicians will say it is not music, and they will have ALL the reasons to do so, they can talk about temppo and music theory and prove (as you did) that this person is not doing music. However, what exectly give people the right to call something music? Or drawing? Or painting? And so on.

That's why my question is philosophical. As far as I am concerned we can only rate or evaluate something according to it's purpose, and when it comes to art (and everything that comes from subjectivity) only the author knows its purpose. The "rules" of writing suppose a common purpose to all writing, and it is a big mistake.

A good example of this is the Bible: When you take the four Gospel there are a lot of contradictions, the intent however is not to deliver precise historical facts but the core message of christianity. So, surprise, if you read it you will see a lot of "plotholes", because they couldn't care less, they just want you to know "Christ was the son of God, lived, performed miracles, sacrificed himself and saved everyone".

That's exactly how I see Naruto. And I could not care less if Kishimoto is not coherent, among me and my real life friends Kishimoto became a verb, like "you kishimoto'd", we used it to refer to when someone said something and then completely contradicted himself, and it's been years since we've been using this expression.

I knew from the start you would not comprehend me, because from the first post I understood you believe art follows rules, that art "belong" to the people (or better, group of people) that defined it. For me art doesn't belong to anyone but the author and only him can define what he did. A childs drawing for me is the same as a Picasso, as much as random drum beating is the same as the 3rd Movement of Moonlight Sonata.

I tried to explain, art for me is an expression of someone's internal world, there are no rules for this. I would love to argue with Sasori and Deidara about how Moegi's Hair is as much art as their masterpieces if she says so herself. If you call it art, it is art. I don't even believe you can evaluate or rate it, but if you use the author's parameters, why not? But using predefined paramaters, no. Not for what I call art.