Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Ryouka]

Re: Naruto 669 Discussion / 670 Predictions

I like your discussion about what makes a work of art - in this case a manga - good. I agree with Invader's CCESD points and that they are essential for a good story but I also see what raoniluna is trying to say. I would simplify it as objective vs. subjective criticism.
Let's take a drawing as an example for further explanations. Some people are able to make an exact copy of the real object with nothing more than a pencil. Of course, you would consider such a drawing, e.g. a portrait of a person, an artwork. But it might not be a very individual artwork because anyone who possesses the skills and technique could draw a very similar exact portrait as well. But the thing that can't really be copied or replicated is artistic expressiveness, which has more to do with individual emotions, preferences and aims of the artist than the technique.
Now imagine being an art teacher and having to rate something that only has one of these features: The artistic skill and technique or the artistic expressivenes. Of course, the technique can be (relatively objectively) measured by how accurate the drawing is, but the expressiveness can not really be measured on the same level since this is a very subjective point of view whether you personally like it or not. Without a good technique, the work becomes less convincing and artistically pleasing, without expressiveness it may become unoriginal and boring.

Now what I'm trying to say is this: We can measure a writer's or artist's skill by objective criticism but we can dispute over how much we like or dislike something. A story is always better when it is convincing, has consistency and continuity, but the best story is not worth anything when it does not respond emotionally to the reader. But nothing can assure that the emotional response is the same for everyone. And for some, the emotional response, no matter how it is achieved (e.g. attachment to a character), is more important than the technique - so that when the technique is flawed, it does not matter the same to them than to someone who values the overall plot (e.g. clever connection of story elements).
(In the case of Naruto, or any other manga, you could also put the actual drawn art into those categories, but that's a different story.)

It's not really easy to explain, but let's agree that everyone has different preferences. Personally, I am more of a character-oriented person and when I like the characters I like the story a lot more as well. But there are exceptions of course and I don't always like everything just because of the characters. But as long as I like a story, be it written, drawn or acted, I don't want to over-criticise and just enjoy it.

Btw, concerning the chapter: I think Gai's power is reasonable, glad to see that he does kick ass now. What I generally don't like too much is the god-like powers we have gotten to. And I don't mean Gai, I mean the Juubi Jinchuuriki + Madara power. Even though it is somewhat logical that he is such a beast with all that Bijuu Power concentrated inside of him, I've always liked Naruto more when it was on a smaller scale. The Land of Waves Arc is still my favourite. That's why it was nice to see some classic clever teamwork again.

 

[Invader]

It is not up to us or anyone to judge.

That is preposterous on its face. You are stating that no viewer of any form of artistic expression has any grounds upon which to criticize it. You are claiming that all art is perfect and it is not possible to either improve it, to point out any weaknesses it may have, or to question the abilities & judgement of the author - no matter what context. In essence, you are declaring that artistic criticism has no place and that all artistic expression is inviolate the moment it is presented. Nonsense.

If what you claim had any truth to it, then no writer would ever put out corrections of their work. No director would ever put out a "remastered" version of a movie - or ever have a "director's cut". No painter would ever retouch an image, or throw it away and start all over. No musician would ever re-perform a song or do a dance mix of it, or make any change of any kind.

But the reality is that artists in any medium do this ALL the time. They correct mistakes, they issue updates, they carefully edit, they print new editions, and otherwise improve and fix their work quite frequently. According to your logic, any person who ever pointed out, "Hey - this work here had flaws and could be improved..." should do nothing but shut their yap and bask in the Holy Perfection that was whatever the artist happened to crap out that particular moment - even if that work was done when they were totally drunk, or under pressure from a patron, or frustrated to the point of distraction, or (as in Kishi's case) just tired of the whole thing and trying to crank it out. Any criticism or notation of the mistakes would be something that person would have "no right" to do. As I said before - such a position is utter nonsense.

Of course musicians will say it is not music, and they will have ALL the reasons to do so

It is interesting that you see this truth, admit it is correct, and yet still say it is wrong for anyone to do exactly that. Not quite sure what to make of this inconsistency. We are having a conversation where I am saying, "Math is done with numbers, and if you try to do Math without numbers then you're doing it wrong". Your response is, "That is correct, but you have no right to tell someone who isn't doing Math with numbers that they're wrong." Then you cop the baffling position that you get everything I'm saying, and I understand nothing you're saying. Frankly, as I see it you are making a huge reach and scrambling at straws to justify what is an inherently poor argumentative position.

And I could not care less if Kishimoto is not coherent

So you can stop there there. YOU do not care. Your use of the singular pronoun in this case is appropriate. You (singular) do not care. WE (multiple) do care. To people such as myself and others, plot matters and to routinely see the bad management of plot elements is a galling aspect to have to endure. And - frankly - to tell people that they should NOT care (when they do) is rather arrogant. Particularly when you couple it with impatient demands that people who disagree with your point of view should just shut up and go read something else. I'm not telling you to care about plot. If you couldn't care less about the plot then more power to you. So don't cop the cheek to tell others what they should or shouldn't be doing.

For me art doesn't belong to anyone but the author and only he can define what he did

Disagree completely. Artists don't make things for themselves or they'd create a work and then never show it to anyone. Artist create works to earn money, because they were commissioned by someone they believed in, because they have something they want to share with others. That makes their work their creation, but the WORLD'S possession. The world can't (and shouldn't) remake that work without his permission, but it can certainly level valid criticisms and have their own opinions. And CERTAINLY art does not mean "only what the created intended". Art has many meanings, and everyone sees it differently. To say otherwise is to say that all persons should react to all art in exactly the same way. And that - again - is nonsense. It's beyond selfish to claim that all people who look at the the Mona Lisa should feel that the smile is "only" exactly whatever Da Vinci thought it meant the moment he painted it. Da Vinci was a great enough artist to know that such a limited and constricting point of view was silly to impose and that his mysterious smile would mean any number of different things to different people. To claim there's only "one true" interpretation of art and that it is always perfect and never a mistake or subject to change? Yeesh.

 

[Bradhimself]

Re: Naruto 669 Discussion / 670 Predictions

None of the above. As I told you, I understand perfectly what you have been writting here. It is pretty basic really. My question is philosophical. I underderstand perfectly how all of these things make it easier to understand, keep a good rythm in the story, make us want to read the next episode, help us connect to the characters and so on...

That's why I told you that you did not understand. My question remains.

I could explain all that I already explained here before, the main argument is that we know almost nothing of Kishimoto's world and mechanics so a lot of "asspull" or "deus ex machina" is completely reasonable, but, I don't want to do that because that's not what I believe in. Another guy asked me: Do you seriously believe that we should accept whatever Kishimoto wants to write? And yes, that is my stance about art. It is not up to us or anyone to judge.

So, let's pretend someone hits a drum, with no rythm at all and cals it music. Of course musicians will say it is not music, and they will have ALL the reasons to do so, they can talk about temppo and music theory and prove (as you did) that this person is not doing music. However, what exectly give people the right to call something music? Or drawing? Or painting? And so on.

That's why my question is philosophical. As far as I am concerned we can only rate or evaluate something according to it's purpose, and when it comes to art (and everything that comes from subjectivity) only the author knows its purpose. The "rules" of writing suppose a common purpose to all writing, and it is a big mistake.

A good example of this is the Bible: When you take the four Gospel there are a lot of contradictions, the intent however is not to deliver precise historical facts but the core message of christianity. So, surprise, if you read it you will see a lot of "plotholes", because they couldn't care less, they just want you to know "Christ was the son of God, lived, performed miracles, sacrificed himself and saved everyone".

That's exactly how I see Naruto. And I could not care less if Kishimoto is not coherent, among me and my real life friends Kishimoto became a verb, like "you kishimoto'd", we used it to refer to when someone said something and then completely contradicted himself, and it's been years since we've been using this expression.

I knew from the start you would not comprehend me, because from the first post I understood you believe art follows rules, that art "belong" to the people (or better, group of people) that defined it. For me art doesn't belong to anyone but the author and only him can define what he did. A childs drawing for me is the same as a Picasso, as much as random drum beating is the same as the 3rd Movement of Moonlight Sonata.

I tried to explain, art for me is an expression of someone's internal world, there are no rules for this. I would love to argue with Sasori and Deidara about how Moegi's Hair is as much art as their masterpieces if she says so herself. If you call it art, it is art. I don't even believe you can evaluate or rate it, but if you use the author's parameters, why not? But using predefined paramaters, no. Not for what I call art.

It's useless trying to change Invader. I tried to point out to him that negative posts and constant but elaborate expressions of distaste for the writer are detriment to the people who still enjoy this manga.

I have even suggested alternative threads dedicated to these kinds of posts. No avail.

He will continue regardless of the fact that everyone has their individual opinion on the matter, that his own personal preferences are not the law of good writing, and that despite this site being called Manga Helpers bashing the writer doesn't really help anyone who comes here for the positives.

He doesn't have nice things to say, He says them all lol.

It's part of his charm hahaha

 

[Invader]

Nah - it's just that some people don't seem to be able to make a differentiation between legitimate criticism of clearly flawed writing, and "negativity". If I was doing nothing but bashing Kishi without providing any underlying logic, reasoning, or explanation then you would have a point. I am not just dumping with no reason. At the same time, I'm not just blowing sunshine either. I'm putting up a real world, honest, and justified series of criticisms.

And it's just eating you up inside, apparently.

 

[Bradhimself]

Nah - it's just that some people don't seem to be able to make a differentiation between legitimate criticism of clearly flawed writing, and "negativity". If I was doing nothing but bashing Kishi without providing any underlying logic, reasoning, or explanation then you would have a point. I am not just dumping with no reason. At the same time, I'm not just blowing sunshine either. I'm putting up a real world, honest, and justified series of criticisms.

And it's just eating you up inside, apparently.

Eh- people who like to complain have an uncanny ability to find reasons to complain. It's not eating me up, I'm well and truly over it. I just know it must suck being in the pattern of reading this manga weekly and hating it.

Maybe we have different standards that constitute good writing. All I know is, if I don't like something I'm reading and I know it's a free choice, I wouldn't freaking read it Lol.. But I do so I do.

Just different people man

 

[TrueRaiKage]

Holy shit...so nobody make fun of me but I just figured out that the guy with the beheader in front of dai was zabuza with no mask on!...holy shit!!!!!!!

 

[KingOfNight]

Holy shit...so nobody make fun of me but I just figured out that the guy with the beheader in front of dai was zabuza with no mask on!...holy shit!!!!!!!

It's not Zabuza :/

 

[TrueRaiKage]

It's not Zabuza :/

I thought so at first as well but look closer....it is him. . it has to be..I dnt want it to be so someone plz Prove me wrong!!!!

 

[KiSwordsman]

Holy shit...so nobody make fun of me but I just figured out that the guy with the beheader in front of dai was zabuza with no mask on!...holy shit!!!!!!!

I don't know about that guy.

Pretty sure it's not.

 

[Fox666]

That's Raiga, who appeared in one of the anime fillers.

Which I don't have a problem with, since at this point the manga is not better than these fillers. LOL

 

[KiSwordsman]

I thought so at first as well but look closer....it is him. . it has to be..I dnt want it to be so someone plz Prove me wrong!!!!

Unless Zabuza has a way of getting rid of cross shaped scars on his face, plus, not aging considering the fact that The person in the picture seems to be older then Gai by at least a decade, i'm pretty positive that's not him.

 

[M3J]

I've been reading and watching the anime of the Zabuza arc. What I found really strange is how fast Naruto and Sasuke advanced during that mission. When naruto and Sasuke first went up against a Zabuza water clone, they had no chance of defeating him. After three days of tree climbing, Sasuke ways able to defeat 6 clones in 5 seconds.

Later Zabuza went on to say no one can match Haku's speed and that Haku was even stronger than him. When Sasuke fought Haku, he'd not only beat him, but was faster. Of course this was all before Haku used crystal ice mirrors.

This may sound strange but am I the only one that think Sasuke would've beaten Haku if he could activate his sharingan at the beginning of the match. And that naruto and Sasuke as a team could've beaten Zabuza if he don't use hidden mist jutsu?

I guess my point is: Zabuza and Haku are probably the most overrated shinobi in the manga... Any thoughts?

I went with Zabuza not having as much strength when using clones, and Naruto and Sasuke improving thanks to training and facing real challenges.

 

[Fox666]

I've been reading and watching the anime of the Zabuza arc. What I found really strange is how fast Naruto and Sasuke advanced during that mission. When naruto and Sasuke first went up against a Zabuza water clone, they had no chance of defeating him. After three days of tree climbing, Sasuke ways able to defeat 6 clones in 5 seconds.

After Sasuke defeated the clones, Zabuza said they have 1/10 of the strength of the original. But one interesting point is that you can't see exactly how many of these there are.

I am going with that Zabuza created 10 clones, and the more he make the weaker they are. While in their previous battle the clone had as much as 1/2 of Zabuza power.

Later Zabuza went on to say no one can match Haku's speed and that Haku was even stronger than him.

That's bogus, Haku is at Chunnin level at best. Maybe Zabuza meant that Haku bloodline beyond his power? Whatever.

And that naruto and Sasuke as a team could've beaten Zabuza if he don't use hidden mist jutsu?

Zabuza is a Jounin around Kakashi level. He probably could defeat Naruto and Sasuke with one hand.

 

[Zoro Zoldyck]

Gaara wall scroll!

So I recently bought this Gaara wallscroll from Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Naruto-Sabaku...=1396095147&sr=8-1&keywords=gaara+wall+scroll

It looks great and I love the colors but there's just one problem.. The edge of the wall scrolls started bending after a fews days when I hung it beside my room's door and I'm kinda freaking out

I love the wallscroll but I'm afraid it'll get bent and then I won't be able to hang it anymore, Does anyone have any experience with wallscrolls? I bought another yugioh wallscroll but it doesn't seem that have that problem.
All advice is appreciated
(I'm not really sure if I'm allowed to talk about this in a new thread or should I go to hang-out thread or something? Kinda new here XD)

 

[Invader]

Re: Naruto 671 Discussion / 672 Predictions

makes room for trophy

I can think of only one time I've ever been wrong about Captain Emo, so most of your trophies are either imaginary or won from entirely different sources. Every other time I've nailed him square between his whiny, selfish insane-o eyes.

That wasn't self-justification, that was a right choice. The bijuu are the problem, even if it's because of humans.

Deliberately murdering nine living, sentient beings is the right choice? I can't agree with that. There is never justification for murder. If that was true, then Konoha would have made "the right choice" by going ahead and slaughtering all the Uchiha simply because sometimes some of them were "the problem". No - just because someone is powerful, or has the potential to be powerful, is no justification for evil. And Captain Emo showed that he was still evil when he decided to kill the Bijju to satisfy his own selfish perspective. It was wrong, and he has shown no sign that he wouldn't extend the same flawed 'logic' to anyone he thought would disagree with his will.

So let's be real. Sauske has shown no sign of any kind that he has changed in a way that matters. He's still a selfish, revenge-driven chucklehead who thinks Might = Right, and who is willing to force his point of view on other people... Perhaps even to the point of murdering them in the name of his personal vision of what he believes is right. The only thing we've seen that even VAGUELY hints at remorse is his lame two word "Sorry, Karin".

That's not to say that it is not possible that he couldn't come around. But so far we haven't seen any sign of it. All we have is a statement that he wants to be the Hokage, and that he isn't going to allow Madara's plan to nullify Itachi's sacrifice. Neither of those statements gives any real indication of remorse, or compassion, or anything else except that Captain Emo has found a new objective that let's him keep saying that "I'm an Avenger..."

In the meantime, Kishi has dropped plenty of hints that Sauske could still very easily go Whacko-Jacko again. There's the Bijju murder thing... There's Jugo and his suspicions... There's Orochimaru and his "let's see what way his wind blows..." hinting... There's Sakura's fake smile... There's Sai's suspicions... All things that hint at a still present potential for Sauske malevolence. To say otherwise is to deny reality.

But again - I'm not saying that it isn't possible for Sauske to have really changed. I'm just saying we haven't seen anything that establishes it yet. It's entirely possible for Kishi to have Sauske go full-on "You are my spare!", and there's plenty of hints pointing at it as an option.

 

[ninjabot]

Re: Naruto 671 Discussion / 672 Predictions

I can think of only one time I've ever been wrong about Captain Emo, so most of your trophies are either imaginary or won from entirely different sources. Every other time I've nailed him square between his whiny, selfish insane-o eyes.

I don't believe that for a second. And neither do you.

"Captain Emo isn't gonna learn anything from speaking to Itachi, and is gonna go destroy the village immediately after talking to him." You said that. Immediately after, he goes to speak to the Kage about the questions he has instead of attempting to destroy the village.

You were wrong. That's 1.

"Sasuke didn't avoid a lethal blow when Killerbee stabbed him with all of his swords!" He did. Juugo states he used rai ton to force the attacks to miss his vitals. You attempted to claim that Sasuke did that by accident (activated an internal ninjutsu electrical charge... by accident?), but dropped it once I tasked you with proving it.

A smart move.

"Sasuke will probably go crazy again after hearing the Kage speak to him." Didn't happen. Not only did he not choose to destroy the village, he chose to protect it.

This was probably my favorite next to the first one.

"Sasuke's Enton comes from Susanoo. Even when he produces it without Susanoo, it still comes from Susanoo." Sasuke uses Enton: Kagutsuchi later with Susanoo active, proving that there is indeed a difference between a normal Kagutsuchi cast with his hands or eyees, and one cast by his Susanoo (what's the point of changing the name otherwise?), proving me correct that Susanoo has absolutely nothing to do with Sasuke's Enton mastery (I shut Uchiha_Blood up on this one too.)

Also, this one isn't about Sasuke, but the whole "Madara's Inyouton rods are inconsequential and won't do anything to Hashirama" was a hoot. Not only did I state that they would be Hashirama's downfall, but I said it'd happen in the next chapter. And it did. First couple pages to boot! This is one of only two times where you owned up to being completely wrong. The other being the first time Sasuke chose to believe Itachi.

This post'll probably be deleted for being off topic and borderline trolling, but come on. This ain't even all of them. I win at Naruto. That's what I DO.

Now where's so6pww... I gotta ask him a question about the whole "Naruto's the New SO6P!!" thread he made last year. Gonna love his reaction to yesterday's chapter.

 

[M3J]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Deliberately murdering nine living, sentient beings is the right choice? I can't agree with that. There is never justification for murder. If that was true, then Konoha would have made "the right choice" by going ahead and slaughtering all the Uchiha simply because sometimes some of them were "the problem". No - just because someone is powerful, or has the potential to be powerful, is no justification for evil. And Captain Emo showed that he was still evil when he decided to kill the Bijju to satisfy his own selfish perspective. It was wrong, and he has shown no sign that he wouldn't extend the same flawed 'logic' to anyone he thought would disagree with his will.

It is if it causes problems. Killing the bijuu is no different from having the Uchiha exterminated, and people supported that because the Uchiha were bad, which there was no proof of. It's biased hypocrisy.

No one but Madara was a problem, and while he had some people who agreed, no one did anything. It was Tobirama who planted the seeds, which Madara and Konoha watered throughout the decades. Killing the Uchiha was no less evil than killing the bijuu, except the bijuu's survival has put the world in trouble.

Sasuke did not show any signs of evilness or selfishness with wanting to kill the bijuu, who could regenerate anyway.

His logic makes more sense than Naruto's. Hell, Naruto was the only one defending the bijuu.

So let's be real. Sauske has shown no sign of any kind that he has changed in a way that matters. He's still a selfish, revenge-driven chucklehead who thinks Might = Right, and who is willing to force his point of view on other people... Perhaps even to the point of murdering them in the name of his personal vision of what he believes is right. The only thing we've seen that even VAGUELY hints at remorse is his lame two word "Sorry, Karin".

Nice conclusion, but it is completely incorrect, mainly because the intent seems to focus on making Sasuke look bad.

That's not to say that it is not possible that he couldn't come around. But so far we haven't seen any sign of it. All we have is a statement that he wants to be the Hokage, and that he isn't going to allow Madara's plan to nullify Itachi's sacrifice. Neither of those statements gives any real indication of remorse, or compassion, or anything else except that Captain Emo has found a new objective that let's him keep saying that "I'm an Avenger..."

Sasuke stopped being an avenger since the moment he vowed to take up Itachi's will. We saw Sasuke come around during the war many times. The Sage seems to confirm that as well.

 

[Rikudou King]

Re: Naruto 671 Discussion / 672 Predictions

Wel... When did the war start? When the sage choose who is going to replace him and lead the world to a new day. Yes, I am obviously going on some assumption here but I do believe its a plausible scenario. We will see in the following chapters.

And we were told that Indra didn't wish to follow his brother. Not wanting to follow someone is completely different then wanting to lead.

The idea is HOW you work with others. You could say that me turning you into my slave (this is not about what he did, just an example) and forcing you to work for me and beat you every morning is cooperation to achieve a goal but its a huge stretch don't you think so?
He did had a clan so a following was created at some point. Also the manga state WAR, a war can only happened between a group of people and not 2 people fighting it out, that is more of a duel no?

But I wouldn't say that and there's nothing even fitting that example among any of those who came from Indra. The worst we have gotten is potentially a disregard for the lives of others, which can be applied to both sides. And the translation states it was a conflict.

You are not the first one to reply to this... Try reading what I replied to before asking me this. Its ninjabot who presented a scenario and I followed with it. Also if Naruto does get in his way (the goal to change the ninja system) do you think he is going to forget his goal or kill Naruto? I expect a fair opinion here.

You claimed Sasuke is after world domination, which still applies to my comment. And why only the two? What about working together, which Sasuke has actually been shown to do more often then not.

Ignorant? You can't be serious after what Sasuke pulled.
Listening to a tactic he himself agrees with is not the same as Sasuke forgetting his obsession. This obsession just changed. He clearly said that he does not give a shit what others think and he is going to become Hokage one way or the other.

What did Sasuke pull? Again, he had no trouble listening to either Itachi (who opinion was the opposite of his) or the Hokages (who disagreed with his original goal). In addition, he has listen to Hashirama multiple times during this war, including the last time where he didn't actually want to get involved. Him not caring what the other kids think is not the same as not caring what others think, otherwise he wouldn't even be in this war.

So now you are omniscient right? Please...

You don't have to be omniscient to know it's not gonna work that way. That whole method requires that everyone be the same way, but people aren't that way. What's gonna happen with people who want to be in charged (like Danzo) or who want something dangerous (like Orochimaru) or are just plain crazy (like Hidan).

Deliberately murdering nine living, sentient beings is the right choice? I can't agree with that. There is never justification for murder. If that was true, then Konoha would have made "the right choice" by going ahead and slaughtering all the Uchiha simply because sometimes some of them were "the problem". No - just because someone is powerful, or has the potential to be powerful, is no justification for evil. And Captain Emo showed that he was still evil when he decided to kill the Bijju to satisfy his own selfish perspective. It was wrong, and he has shown no sign that he wouldn't extend the same flawed 'logic' to anyone he thought would disagree with his will.

Except they aren't living. They are nothing but energy, energy that was never suppose to exist. That's far different then murdering people. And it's not even comparable. The Uchiha massacre was wrong because they didn't actually do anything to deserve being killed. They were purposely set up and manipulated by external events. The Bijuus on the other hand have done what they have been blamed for. They are tools of war that have been the caused of multiple conflicts, in addition to causing plenty of deaths themselves.

And selfish perspective? How is attempting to eliminate the Juubi, the very key to the villain's plan selfish?

So let's be real. Sauske has shown no sign of any kind that he has changed in a way that matters. He's still a selfish, revenge-driven chucklehead who thinks Might = Right, and who is willing to force his point of view on other people... Perhaps even to the point of murdering them in the name of his personal vision of what he believes is right. The only thing we've seen that even VAGUELY hints at remorse is his lame two word "Sorry, Karin".

So him declining to attack a defenseless village, or attempting to save Naruto multiple times, or making several attempts to stop Madara aren't proof that he changed? If he was as you believed, then he would have taken Madara up on his offer instead of trying to oppose him.

That's not to say that it is not possible that he couldn't come around. But so far we haven't seen any sign of it. All we have is a statement that he wants to be the Hokage, and that he isn't going to allow Madara's plan to nullify Itachi's sacrifice. Neither of those statements gives any real indication of remorse, or compassion, or anything else except that Captain Emo has found a new objective that let's him keep saying that "I'm an Avenger..."

We have seen plenty signs of it. And considering he's not even trying to avenge anything...

In the meantime, Kishi has dropped plenty of hints that Sauske could still very easily go Whacko-Jacko again. There's the Bijju murder thing... There's Jugo and his suspicions... There's Orochimaru and his "let's see what way his wind blows..." hinting... There's Sakura's fake smile... There's Sai's suspicions... All things that hint at a still present potential for Sauske malevolence. To say otherwise is to deny reality.

1) Killing the Bijuus? The whole Alliance was attempting that, including Naruto beforehand.
2) Juugo wondering about Sasuke doesn't mean anything, considering Juugo is completely loyal to him and thus wouldn't care if Sasuke wanted to kill everyone or not.
3) Um, that comment would be more about what will happen to Sasuke then what Sasuke would do.
4) Sakura's fake smile could apply to anything, such as her own personal feeling, something we already saw was an issue.
5) Suspicions =/= something actually wrong. We got neither Naruto nor Minato reacting anyway to Sasuke's intentions, despite them both possessing the ability to sense malevolence. We have had nothing from Kakashi, who is a far better judge of character, nor from any of the other Hokages like Tobirama, who actually has a history of mistrusting Uchiha's. Forgive me if I take the opinions of these characters over Sai.

 

[Invader]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

"Captain Emo isn't gonna learn anything from speaking to Itachi, and is gonna go destroy the village immediately after talking to him." You said that. Immediately after, he goes to speak to the Kage about the questions he has instead of attempting to destroy the village.

Wrong. I said he could still intend to wipe out the VILLAGERS. He may intend to preserve Konoha according to his own definitions - which may or may not include keeping the people in the village alive or not. Previously he wanted to murder every man, woman, and child in the village. After the Kage pow-wow all he said is that he was going to preserve Itachi's sacrifice. He didn't make any specific statement about what that meant.

So you're wrong here. 1.

Juugo states he used rai ton to force the attacks to miss his vitals. You attempted to claim that Sasuke did that by accident (activated an internal ninjutsu electrical charge... by accident?), but dropped it once I tasked you with proving it.

No - you're making this up entirely. I've never made any such argument as you're claiming. I take you to prove that I ever did. Bee's first stabbings may have been eventually fatal attacks, and Sauske did nothing to block them - let alone any raiton channeling. The only attack that was blocked was Bee's singular 'finishing stroke', which Suigetsu actually blocked. Sauske didn't block it. He just added his raiton to it in order to prevent Bee from welding his way through the blade and killing Sauske as he lay on the ground. You're going to have to supply actual references if you are going to prove your claim that I ever said Captain Emo activiated his raiton by 'accident'. Regardless, the initlal blows could by themselves have been fatal in time without Karin around.

Wrong again. 2.

"Sasuke will probably go crazy again after hearing the Kage speak to him." Didn't happen. Not only did he not choose to destroy the village, he chose to protect it.

I believe I said he could go crazy. That's not the same thing as saying he WILL go crazy. And I maintain that we still haven't seen his final disposition yet in that regard. His decision to murder the Bijju is a checkmark in the "could still be crazy" category in my book. Regardless, you're trying to turn an argument about an opinion about his possible state of mind which was being argued conditionally as some sort of "right/wrong" argument. That's not what it was. It was an "this COULD happen" discussion.

So - "incorrectly applied, fallacious argument" on your part. Wrong 3.

"Sasuke's Enton comes from Susanoo."

This is another case where whatever muddled recollection of events exists in your head is not matched by actual reality. So imma gonna have to ask again for you to prove this by citation. Where did I ever say that Amaterasu comes from Susanoo? I've always maintained that his Amaterasu comes from the Sharingan. The only argument I've made along these lines that I can recall is that the Kagutsuchi from from his Susanoo because that's the only time we've ever seen them.

So - "frenzied, mis-remembered argument" on your part. Wrong 4.

"Madara's Inyouton rods are inconsequential and won't do anything to Hashirama" was a hoot.

Yes - I was wrong about that one. But the ONLY time I've been wrong about Captain Emo was when he didn't just blow off Itachi after he twinkled. The rest of the times you think you 'win' discussion are simply times you get owned and refuse to admit it. Give it up, because you're opinions are mostly wrong and repeatedly proven to be so because they are grounded in a hopeless fanboi loyalty to Captain Emo which blinds you to logic and reason.

So him declining to attack a defenseless village, or attempting to save Naruto multiple times, or making several attempts to stop Madara aren't proof that he changed?

Him not attacking Konoha could be nothing more than prioritizing. He knew time was limited, and taking time to wipe out the village would have meant defeat by Obito or Madara. Same thing goes for 'saving' Naruto (self preservation) and fighting Madara (nothing more than putting down a power rival). These do not impress me as any kind of proof that Sauske has had a change in heart to where he 'cares' about anybody or anything beyond whatever selfish plan he's fixated on at any particular moment.

1) Killing the Bijuus? The whole Alliance was attempting that, including Naruto beforehand.

At what point was the "whole Alliance" purposed with the objective of "killing Bijjus"? When did Naruto ever try to "kill Bijjus"? That's you imbuing intent where none existed.

2) Juugo wondering about Sasuke doesn't mean anything

Yes it does. Even Juugo - who as you say is "completely loyal" to Sauske is not sure what he really intends to do. The only people more "completely loyal" to Sauske then would be folks like Ninjabot and yourself who choose to believe that he's becomes some kind of Mother Teresa without any evidence for it except the fact that he DIDN'T immediately go on a homicidal rampage.

4) Sakura's fake smile could apply to anything, such as her own personal feeling, something we already saw was an issue.

Uh - Sai talks to her about Sauske's intent. Sakura says she trusts Sauske. Sai says he can tell it is a fake smile. And we are supposed to believe that the fake smile is about some sort of unspoken, unknown, completely unrelated "personal feeling" Sakura is having rather than the question about Sauske's true intentions? Okaaaaaay...

5) Suspicions =/= something actually wrong. We got neither Naruto nor Minato reacting anyway to Sasuke's intentions, despite them both possessing the ability to sense malevolence.

Can Minato sense evil intent? Can't recall that panel. Naruto gave Sauske the "angry look" when he wanted to burn down the Bijju. That's a sensing of evil intent, I'd wager, at least in that regard.

 

[Rikudou King]

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13 <3

Him not attacking Konoha could be nothing more than prioritizing. He knew time was limited, and taking time to wipe out the village would have meant defeat by Obito or Madara. Same thing goes for 'saving' Naruto (self preservation) and fighting Madara (nothing more than putting down a power rival). These do not impress me as any kind of proof that Sauske has had a change in heart to where he 'cares' about anybody or anything beyond whatever selfish plan he's fixated on at any particular moment.

Prioritizing how? Sasuke had no intentions of getting involved in the war til he got convinced otherwise by Hashirama, meaning he had all the time he wanted to destroy Konoha before going on with his day. And he wouldn't have had to defeat anyone, since he would have been on their side. Self preservation? How would it have been self preservation when Sasuke has constantly considered himself stronger then Naruto? Plus he had the Edo Hokages basically under his command. What purpose did he need Naruto for that he couldn't use another for. Finally, why would he oppose Madara instead of joining with Madara, which would not only have kept him safe but also allowed him to do as he wanted? Heck, you speak about self-preservation and ignore that Sasuke attacking Madara on Hahsirama's wish completely goes against that, as Sasuke made it clear he had no desire to get anymore involve in the fighting. So Sasuke willingly risked his life doing something he didn't want to do, after being asked by a good guy, yet that seemingly means nothing... And what is this "selfish" plan you speak of? I fail to see how wanting to fulfill Itachi's dream is selfish.

At what point was the "whole Alliance" purposed with the objective of "killing Bijjus"? When did Naruto ever try to "kill Bijjus"? That's you imbuing intent where none existed.

When they were fighting and attempting to take down the Juubi. And you seem to have forgotten that Naruto and gang attempted to eliminate the Juubi before it's revival. They were completely happy when they thought they had succeeded. So according to your logic, they are all evil.

Yes it does. Even Juugo - who as you say is "completely loyal" to Sauske is not sure what he really intends to do. The only people more "completely loyal" to Sauske then would be folks like Ninjabot and yourself who choose to believe that he's becomes some kind of Mother Teresa without any evidence for it except the fact that he DIDN'T immediately go on a homicidal rampage.

No, it doesn't. It would only mean something if Juugo was the type to judge Sasuke, and as we've seen, he's not. he holds no issue with Sasuke doing evil. And our evidence that Sasuke's not evil is far more then just that, whereas the counter has simply been "well, he's Sasuke"...

Uh - Sai talks to her about Sauske's intent. Sakura says she trusts Sauske. Sai says he can tell it is a fake smile. And we are supposed to believe that the fake smile is about some sort of unspoken, unknown, completely unrelated "personal feeling" Sakura is having rather than the question about Sauske's true intentions? Okaaaaaay...

Unspoken, unknown, completely unrelated? Every single time that Sakura and Sasuke have interacted in Part Two has involved her personal feelings between the two. It would be far more unlikely that it didn't have to do with personal feelings then having to do with them.

Can Minato sense evil intent? Can't recall that panel. Naruto gave Sauske the "angry look" when he wanted to burn down the Bijju. That's a sensing of evil intent, I'd wager, at least in that regard.

Minato has the same cloak as Naruto, granting him the same abilities. And presuming that look was "sensing evil intent", despite it being completely different from what we saw of Naruto sensing such, how exactly is having ill intent towards the Juubi equal to having ill intent towards innocent people?