Shounen Bleach by Tite Kubo

[Exodi]

I know he's getting a better deal than, say, a corporate bitch in a huge lawyer firm or millions of people in Africa for that matter. That's a given. But this is a Bleach forum and it's perfectly reasonable to feel sorry for a dude whose health we know for a fact is getting shitty because of what he does.

Even more so when we're supposed to be fans of his work. It doesn't really seem like it for some people.
Which begs the question: Why are you here and why are you reading Bleach?

You might wanna look into not just what you wrote, but into the implications of what you wrote. You, as a matter of fact, do come across as an entitled, insesitive asshat.

This is exactly the point I was making.

 

[Delbi]

You might wanna look into not just what you wrote, but into the implications of what you wrote. You, as a matter of fact, do come across as an entitled, insesitive asshat.

As adults, we kinda sorta have to cope with the fact that the implications of what we say is half the message sent. It's called "awareness of environment" and it's a vital survival tool.

He does work like hell and if he's sick is totally because of a job whose average schedule and workload should be banned in any decent country. Kubo is hardly the one that works the hardest in the industry (apparently Kishimoto's schedule was even more insane than usual), but writing that he should cope with it because he 's rich just because I and some other people showed concern and appreciation is just mean.

I know he's getting a better deal than, say, a corporate bitch in a huge lawyer firm or millions of people in Africa for that matter. That's a given. But this is a Bleach forum and it's perfectly reasonable to feel sorry for a dude whose health we know for a fact is getting shitty because of what he does.

No one is attacking you, but the way and context you express opinions we don't agree with.

You still haven't shown me a source that says its because of his workload that he got sick. You are just assuming, and as adults, that isn't something that is the intelligent thing to do. So before calling me an asshat, try and reinforce your arguments with actual facts, not simple assumptions. Also, nice name calling.

I found this interesting article that talks about the subject. If you notice, it talks about when the manga sells in the thousands (like Bleach does) the workload gets easier.

These guys pay a price to get their manga's popular. Not going to refute that. But they choose to do so. In terms of Kubo, Oda, and Kishi, they reap the rewards and become millionaires when they do so. There is no need for a ban on their workload when no one is forcing them to work. These aren't children or factory workers with no better option. They could have other jobs but they choose to be artists.

As far as "awareness of environment" goes. I am fully aware where I am posting. I posted something unpopular, not the first time I've done it but it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I expected backlash (although not so much personal attacks).

---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------

Even more so when we're supposed to be fans of his work. It doesn't really seem like it for some people.
Which begs the question: Why are you here and why are you reading Bleach?

I am a fan. But as a fan I can also criticize a work, which is also what this forum is about. I can also criticize the author if I want. I'm here because I like to discuss issues with manga in general. That's what this site is for is it not? Or do I have to remain quite when I disagree with something I read?

This is exactly the point I was making.

If I come across as entitled, then both of you come across as hypocrites. Sky Render also comes across as a bully who needs to result to name calling when someone disagrees with him lol.

I never feel sorry for someone who chooses to do something and then suffers for it. Kubo isn't being forced to do what he does. And I laugh when people feel sorry for someone yet have no gripes with stealing their work. The irony in some of the posts is comical.

Do I want him to be sick? No, I don't wish sickness on anyone. But if he is indeed sick from working (which hasn't been proven) then no, I don't feel that bad because he brought it upon himself. There's a reason he isn't stopping and Kishi didn't take a honeymoon yet, they are making massive amounts of money and get massive recognition and are treated like rock stars.

 

[Firebird0ne]

@ Delbi

Just noticed that the article you pointed out does not say quite what you expressed. It does, as you say, point out that things get easier once a manga achieves in the thousands (and has an anime to boost overseas interest), but easier is not necessarily easy.

I think what bothers me about your attitude is that you lack human compassion in your response. You wouldn't claim that a firefighter who dies in a fire was deserving of that because he chose to be a firefighter. We're glad there are firefighters because we need them. To a lesser degree, we 'need' entertainment to step away from our life stresses. Manga artists are people who offer us that respite from our troubles/frustrations. Like other service industries, there is stress and a high risk of failure. And as the article you point out says, "If you were to google pictures of manga artists, you'd see that almost everyone looks frail, like they haven't eaten in days and as though they don't sleep much. That's just the price they have to pay for making it in the industry. Why do they do it? I suppose some things are just worth doing."

I, for one, deeply appreciate the efforts of manga artists and I do purchase the weekly online WSJ and buy volumes excitedly. Sure, an artist being ill can be frustrating because it means waiting, but the important thing is not to forget that there is a human being on the other end, working hard and providing something of value. To say that their pain doesn't matter because they chose their field is extremely harsh and seems to deny the artist the right to be human, like the rest of us.

 

[exacta]

I never feel sorry for someone who chooses to do something and then suffers for it. Kubo isn't being forced to do what he does. And I laugh when people feel sorry for someone yet have no gripes with stealing their work. The irony in some of the posts is comical.

Do I want him to be sick? No, I don't wish sickness on anyone. But if he is indeed sick from working (which hasn't been proven) then no, I don't feel that bad because he brought it upon himself. There's a reason he isn't stopping and Kishi didn't take a honeymoon yet, they are making massive amounts of money and get massive recognition and are treated like rock stars.

The reason people are saying you sound entitled is because you are basically saying you don't care if Kubo makes himself sick for the sake of all his readers, which would include you. In fact you said you don't care if anyone suffers in any way from any decision they make, which would have to include decisions made for the sake of other human beings.

And yet you are complaining about name-calling and referring to the responses to your posts as "personal attacks" and "bullying". So it's okay if you have no compassion for other people, yet other people can't even call you an asshat, even if it's because you have no compassion for other people? How is that not entitled?

Becoming as successful as Kubo, Kishi, Oda, etc. isn't easy. You don't just hand Shounen Jump a manga you drew and instantly get handed millions of dollars back in return for publishing one single chapter. You're belittling the profession and work of other people, which is generally considered impolite. You wouldn't like it if we did that to you. But you think it's okay to do it to people providing you with entertainment, possibly at their own expense. Ehh whatever it's your opinion. But I would hardly compare receiving backlash for it to being bullied.

 

[Delbi]

@ Delbi

Just noticed that the article you pointed out does not say quite what you expressed. It does, as you say, point out that things get easier once a manga achieves in the thousands (and has an anime to boost overseas interest), but easier is not necessarily easy.

I think what bothers me about your attitude is that you lack human compassion in your response. You wouldn't claim that a firefighter who dies in a fire was deserving of that because he chose to be a firefighter. We're glad there are firefighters because we need them. To a lesser degree, we 'need' entertainment to step away from our life stresses. Manga artists are people who offer us that respite from our troubles/frustrations. Like other service industries, there is stress and a high risk of failure. And as the article you point out says, "If you were to google pictures of manga artists, you'd see that almost everyone looks frail, like they haven't eaten in days and as though they don't sleep much. That's just the price they have to pay for making it in the industry. Why do they do it? I suppose some things are just worth doing."

I, for one, deeply appreciate the efforts of manga artists and I do purchase the weekly online WSJ and buy volumes excitedly. Sure, an artist being ill can be frustrating because it means waiting, but the important thing is not to forget that there is a human being on the other end, working hard and providing something of value. To say that their pain doesn't matter because they chose their field is extremely harsh and seems to deny the artist the right to be human, like the rest of us.

My lack of compassion is that a manga artists isn't providing a "brave" service like a fire fighter and I don't weep for people who reap rewards like Kubo does, especially if the source of their pain in their own choosing. A fire fighter makes a minuscule salary when in comparison to manga artist like Kubo who is a millionaire and doesn't do their work to make money. If manga artists are so tortured and they continue to torture themselves I would think money has a large part to do why they do what they do. So your analogy is waayyyy off.

And yet again, I ask for proof that Kubo is sick because of his work and none is given.

---------- Post added at 01:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 AM ----------

The reason people are saying you sound entitled is because you are basically saying you don't care if Kubo makes himself sick for the sake of all his readers, which would include you. In fact you said you don't care if anyone suffers in any way from any decision they make, which would have to include decisions made for the sake of other human beings.

You see, I never said that. I simply refuted that point that he works so hard that he has made himself sick, because no one has proven that. Nor did I say I don't care if anyone suffers from any decision they make. I simply don't feel bad for people like Kubo who choose this line of work in order to reap large rewards, or if they sell out to gain those rewards. That'd be like feeling bad for a hedge fund owner who works his balls off and gets sick so just so he can add a little but to his fortune. In essence, I don't feel bad for people who are greedy. The fact that Kishi didn't even take the time to go on a honeymoon with his wife speaks volumes to me about why I wouldn't feel sorry for someone like that. When money or whatever reason is more important than your significant other who you chose to marry, then I can't feel sympathy for you.

And yet you are complaining about name-calling and referring to the responses to your posts as "personal attacks" and "bullying". So it's okay if you have no compassion for other people, yet other people can't even call you an asshat, even if it's because you have no compassion for other people? How is that not entitled?

I don't have compassion for a certain kind of person. If you knew anything about you would understand that I don't lack compassion for other people, especially considering the line of work I've been steering my career into. You shouldn't make generalizations about someone on the internet because you disagree with them.

If that makes me entitled so be it. I know where my own values lie and I know I have compassion. Guess I should expect people to make presumptions on this forum.

Becoming as successful as Kubo, Kishi, Oda, etc. isn't easy. You don't just hand Shounen Jump a manga you drew and instantly get handed millions of dollars back in return for publishing one single chapter. You're belittling the profession and work of other people, which is generally considered impolite. You wouldn't like it if we did that to you. But you think it's okay to do it to people providing you with entertainment, possibly at their own expense. Ehh whatever it's your opinion. But I would hardly compare receiving backlash for it to being bullied.

I'm not putting down the profession, and I do understand how hard these guys work. What I am doing is throwing aside the notion that I should feel sorry for men who choose their own demise for the sake of money or "entertainment" of others. If their goal was to entertain and not make money, or they had some higher purpose as to please fans or something I think it'd show maybe I would feel bad but there's no evidence whatsoever that I've been able to find that Kubo is like that.

And again, I see no evidence that Kubo is sick because of his work. None.

 

[Sky Render]

Sky Render also comes across as a bully who needs to result to name calling when someone disagrees with him lol.

No, YOU are the bully! And a big meanie too!

 

[ninjabot]

You might wanna look into not just what you wrote, but into the implications of what you wrote. You, as a matter of fact, do come across as an entitled, insesitive asshat.

So you're not mad about what he said, you're mad about your interpretation of what he said, or what they might impicate.

...

...So who's fault is that? And how the hell does his reasoning make him seem entitled when he's not complaining about not getting a chapter? He's complaining about people making Kubo out to be some kind of god damn martyr when his job isn't as hard as you guys want to believe. Compounded by the fact that he chose this profession.

I know he's getting a better deal than, say, a corporate bitch in a huge lawyer firm or millions of people in Africa for that matter. That's a given. But this is a Bleach forum and it's perfectly reasonable to feel sorry for a dude whose health we know for a fact is getting shitty because of what he does.

It's not okay to turn into a Social Justice Warrior against those that don't share your sentiment though, especially when you seem to be mistaking what their stance actually is. No one on Delbi and I's side of the argument are doing any of the things you're claiming we are, and you're jumping to conclusions out of anger. Misplaced anger.

Exodi thinks we don't like the manga because we're calling into question just how hard a time Kubo is having DRAWING PICTURES.

You're claiming we're asshats for acknowledging that Kubo's life isn't as tough as other people with similar working conditions and far less money, resulting in us having less compassion for him.

And all of you are claiming we're being entitled by not feeling as sorry for him as everyone else is? How's that entitlement? Entitlement is when you believe you deserve to be treated better than someone else. To receive things based on your prestige, not whether you earned it or not. We're not complaining about missing a chapter, we're complaining about the fans blowing his condition out of proportion because they're fans of the manga. It's why we made a point to point out the working conditions of people like myself and other thousands around the US who aren't coddled in such a manner.

I won't say you guys are bullying, though it's important to point out you're the only ones resulting to name calling. You're not bullying, but you're biased and jaded as all hell.

---------- Post added at 10:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------

You wouldn't claim that a firefighter who dies in a fire was deserving of that because he chose to be a firefighter.

See how you guys are resorting to analogies that are painfully mismatched in order to make Kubo seem like he's in worse condition than he is, and likewise trying to make us look like assholes for not sharing such a horrible interpretation of poor working conditions?

You just compared BURNING TO DEATH IN A FIRE... to getting hand cramps from drawing too many background-less panels. To exhaustion from sleep deprivation.

What's worse is you don't even know the specifics of Kubo's illness (neither do I hence skepticism), yet you're SO READY to believe he's trying to sweat out a case of ebola or that he's got tuberculosis or something.

I will however say that if the firefighter started taking days off of work because they don't like how often they're doing it under the guise of illness, without me being able to prove otherwise, I would be of the exact same opinion I am now with Kubo. Because just like Kubo the fireman knew how demanding the job was before he pursued it. That's a more fitting analogy. Because that's my stance on Kubo.

Not that I'm angry because there's no chapter (I think I made it obvious in the "What is Bleach to you" thread that I'm not the biggest Bleach fan in the world). Not that I don't care that he's sick or not (I said I hope he gets better if he's seriously sick). And not that I don't understand that his job can be extremely demanding (as I said I work 12 hours a day, with 4 hours of sleep a day. I know rough work conditions). It's that I don't think it's as demanding as you guys do. And it certainly isn't responsible for him being sick. Not fucking drawing.

Not fucking drawing.

 

[Firebird0ne]

You might want to keep in mind that the article Delbi, himself, quoted says specifically (and if you google it, you will find other sources that support the FACT that) mangakas tend to suffer from serious conditions, such as tendonitis, a very painful condition and diabetes, a deadly one, because of the demands of their job. Add to that the FACT that Japanese working conditions in general are more rigid and less worker friendly than American companies. Also, consider that a person's job choice is made based upon his/her talents, and (unless one comes from a wealthy family) we all have to work. Kubo is lucky in that he is talented and has earned respect and money, but that comes at a heavy price. Pain, frailty and illness (as the article Delbi referred to clearly states) are a FACT in a mangaka's life.

Are you and Delbi arguing that money lessens the pain of tendonitis? That it magically cures the killer disease, Diabetes?

Then, there is the shaky logic of claiming that successful mangakas do not deserve sympathy because they are compensated for their pain with money/success.

Does having money make a person not human anymore? Does it make their pain less meaningful? Do you feel more sad for poor people who hurt or die than rich people? I don't know about you, but my compassion for people is not based on what work they to do to pay the bills or how much money they make. Riches don't cure conditions caused by overwork and overwork is a known fact of Japanese work culture.

Going back to Kubo, one only has to look at the pictures posted lately and the toll of the hard work he does becomes apparent. He does look unwell. I would feel compassion for anyone suffering pain/illness as he clearly is as proven by his recent hospital stay and the sudden inability to finish last week's chapter. There is more than enough evidence that all is not well with Kubo, and his health has been a concern for a long time. Anyone suffering chronic health issues like that deserves some human compassion.

@ ninjabot - Are you saying that because you are miserable in your job, everyone else should be suffering too?

 

[NoOneInParticular]

I'm not putting down the profession, and I do understand how hard these guys work. What I am doing is throwing aside the notion that I should feel sorry for men who choose their own demise for the sake of money or "entertainment" of others. If their goal was to entertain and not make money, or they had some higher purpose as to please fans or something I think it'd show maybe I would feel bad but there's no evidence whatsoever that I've been able to find that Kubo is like that.

And again, I see no evidence that Kubo is sick because of his work. None.

I really don't want to weigh in on this argument, partly because it's going a little far and partly because truth be told I can kind of, sort of, partly see where you're coming from. Kind of. Yes, he's being compensated and no, he's not saving lives. And frankly I don't think mangaka is a profession anyone chooses for the money, so I think that, yes, he's doing something he ultimately enjoys, telling a story he wants to tell (even if there may be some interference from the editors). On the spectrum of people living decent lives and people living through real shit, he's certainly not on the lower end of humanity.
But still, the guy's working hard. Maybe there's no need to shed a tear for him, but his work should at least be acknowledged, especially since we consume it on a weekly basis, so evidently we all enjoy it to some degree or another.

Well... I accidentally weighed in on the argument. Anyway, all I actually wanted to ask is - what exactly would serve as evidence that Kubo's in it to entertain, rather than to make money? How would you gauge that? Not even trying to attack you, I'm genuinely curious. I mean, like I said, I find it very hard to believe anyone becomes a mangaka for the money, and Kubo was drawing well before Bleach became successful.

 

[ninjabot]

You might want to keep in mind that the article Delbi, himself, quoted says specifically (and if you google it, you will find other sources that support the FACT that) mangakas tend to suffer from serious conditions, such as tendonitis, a very painful condition and diabetes, a deadly one, because of the demands of their job. Add to that the FACT that Japanese working conditions in general are more rigid and less worker friendly than American companies. Also, consider that a person's job choice is made based upon his/her talents, and (unless one comes from a wealthy family) we all have to work. Kubo is lucky in that he is talented and has earned respect and money, but that comes at a heavy price. Pain, frailty and illness (as the article Delbi referred to clearly states) are a FACT in a mangaka's life.

Like I said, I understand that it's a tough job. I said it isn't as tough as you guys are making it out to be. None of those debilitating effects are exclusive to mangaka and a lot of the ones that have worse working conditions pay less. You're not saying anything that I didn't.

Are you and Delbi arguing that money lessens the pain of tendonitis? That it magically cures the killer disease, Diabetes?

No. We're arguing that better working conditions and better pay than people that make less money than you makes it harder to feel compassion for you, and easier to feel compassion for the others. It's not just the amount of money he makes, it's the amount of money he makes in comparison to the difficulty of the work he does.

Then, there is the shaky logic of claiming that successful mangakas do not deserve sympathy because they are compensated for their pain with money/success.

A claim that nobody made. The closest you'll find to this is Delbi claiming that he can't feel sympathy for someone making millions of dollars. Context matters. You point out the money, but don't point out the amount of it to try to make it seem less substantial.

Does having money make a person not human anymore? Does it make their pain less meaningful? Do you feel more sad for poor people who hurt or die than rich people? I don't know about you, but my compassion for people is not based on what work they to do to pay the bills or how much money they make. Riches don't cure conditions caused by overwork and overwork is a known fact of Japanese work culture.

ONCE AGAIN. It's the caliber of pain you're trying to attribute to Kubo's condition that's unrealistic and annoying. I feel more sorry for people who work the same kind of hours and get the same amount of sleep as Kubo without the millions in dollars as penance for their hard work.

Where's your heartfelt plea for us to understand the plight of all the factory workers working 12 hour shifts and getting 4 hours of sleep a night that DON'T draw pictures for you? Where's your concern for the guy in the Energizer plant hefting 65lbs boxes full of batteries you need for your flashlights and alarm clocks and fire alarms; getting carpal tunnel and ruining their back for 7.75 an hour with the risk of respiratory problems from the factory conditions, or alkali burns?

I have sympathy for Kubo. But I have MORE sympathy for people that deserve more.

Going back to Kubo, one only has to look at the pictures posted lately and the toll of the hard work he does becomes apparent. He does look unwell. I would feel compassion for anyone suffering pain/illness as he clearly is as proven by his recent hospital stay and the sudden inability to finish last week's chapter. There is more than enough evidence that all is not well with Kubo, and his health has been a concern for a long time. Anyone suffering chronic health issues like that deserves some human compassion.

I'm calling bullshit on this one. Kubo's always drawn panels with no detail outside of the characters and the previous chapters were of the same quality.

@ ninjabot - Are you saying that because you are miserable in your job, everyone else should be suffering too?

Not at all. That shouldn't have been the interpretation of my words, because I didn't say I was miserable at work. I'm thankful for having a job. And to show appreciation or having that job, I show up on time, don't take days off, and do as I'm told. For far less than Kubo does. Despite apparently working similar hours.

What I'm saying is that Kubo's condition deserves sympathy... but not nearly as much as it's getting. Especially without specifics. For example, everything you said was fact, was fact about what COULD happen to a mangaka over time. There hasn't been any definitive answer from any of you as to what Kubo's actual condition is. Just the blanket term that he's either "sick" or "tired". And Diabetes sure as HELL doesn't come from being a mangaka. That's from decisions they make while being a mangaka.

---------- Post added at 12:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 PM ----------

http://www.workers-comp-news.com/jobs-tendonitis.php BTW, here's a graph showing the jobs that are most likely to cause tendonitis.

Awkward, repeated actions performed with the arms, shoulders and back can frequently generate the level of strain required to induce tendonitis. This is reflected by NIOSH data which shows manufacturing and construction to be the industries most affected, followed by public utilities. Employees working these types of jobs are frequently asked to perform physical tasks that involve equipment or procedures which force their bodies into unnatural positions, increasing their chances of injury 2.

The chart above supports the fact that those who are directly involved in the day to day operations of a manufacturing plant or act as laborers in general assembly line work are the most affected by tendonitis. Support staff also see a high rate of the condition due to the use of keyboards and other manual implements, which can irritate the tendons in the wrist and forearms.

Tendonitis does not have a specific treatment. What is usually recommended is for those suffering from this type of occupational injury to refrain from participating in the activities which caused the inflammation and swelling in the first place. This can be combined with the use of anti-inflammatory drugs and occasionally braces for addition joint support.

See that there? Any job that consists of tons of repetitive motions results in tendonitis. Most common in the factory workers I keep comparing to Kubo. The very same factory workers making tons less money than he. My analogy is ON POINT. And guess what they do when they get tendonitis? They put on a brace, pop a few Aleve and get back to work.

 

[Delbi]

You might want to keep in mind that the article Delbi, himself, quoted says specifically (and if you google it, you will find other sources that support the FACT that) mangakas tend to suffer from serious conditions, such as tendonitis, a very painful condition and diabetes, a deadly one, because of the demands of their job. Add to that the FACT that Japanese working conditions in general are more rigid and less worker friendly than American companies. Also, consider that a person's job choice is made based upon his/her talents, and (unless one comes from a wealthy family) we all have to work. Kubo is lucky in that he is talented and has earned respect and money, but that comes at a heavy price. Pain, frailty and illness (as the article Delbi referred to clearly states) are a FACT in a mangaka's life.

I really don't understand why you feel the need to compare one first world countries work conditions to another. You realize that among first world countries American's on average work more hours and get less vacation time and sick days than most right? We live in a capitalistic society that is entirely cut throat. While the actual conditions of our jobs may not be made as compared to a factory worker in Malaysia, people do work very fucking hard in my country.

Pain, fraility and illness CAN BE a fact of a mangaka's life. There, again, is no evidence that this is why Kubo is sick. You still haven't given me that, and until you do your argument is absolute shit. I tried helping you by posting the article and you still wish to throw Kubo into a generalized statement, when the article points out that someone like him has a lighter workload.

Are you and Delbi arguing that money lessens the pain of tendonitis? That it magically cures the killer disease, Diabetes?

You are utterly insane to compare tendonitis to something like Diabetes. I have tendonitits from playing sports my entire life, as do many people, it sucks but is far and away a very minor aliment except in the most serious of cases. I have it in both knees, my hips, and one shoulder. If he had severe arthritis that'd be different as his hand could turn into a claw, but please do not compare a minor aliment to something like diabetes that kills people.

As far as diabetes goes, that would be caused by their own shitty diet and not taking care of themselves. The demands of the job don't cause them to eat fast food and not be active. If you give a shit about your health you'll take care of yourself. Again, no one is forcing them to do this work. I will never feel bad for an adult (except int he most extreme circumstances) contracts a disease like diabetes via their own doing. That's asinine.

Then, there is the shaky logic of claiming that successful mangakas do not deserve sympathy because they are compensated for their pain with money/success.

Does having money make a person not human anymore? Does it make their pain less meaningful? Do you feel more sad for poor people who hurt or die than rich people? I don't know about you, but my compassion for people is not based on what work they to do to pay the bills or how much money they make. Riches don't cure conditions caused by overwork and overwork is a known fact of Japanese work culture.

You really don't get it. I don't have sympathy for him if he got sick from his actual work because he chooses to do that. When you choose your own suffering when you have other options I don't feel bad for you, especially when you aren't choosing to do something for a noble cause. I'll mourn the firefighter who dies saving lives, not the mangaka artist who got fat from eating chips all day and has a hand cramp.

No, riches don't cure conditions, but as some say, it's better to cry in a mansion then on the street. Riches don't solve all problems, but to think money doesn't solve any or can't give you a better quality of life is hilarious. It depends on the person. Some don't need money to be happy, others do because money equals good health care, a good place to live, good food, etc.

Going back to Kubo, one only has to look at the pictures posted lately and the toll of the hard work he does becomes apparent. He does look unwell. I would feel compassion for anyone suffering pain/illness as he clearly is as proven by his recent hospital stay and the sudden inability to finish last week's chapter. There is more than enough evidence that all is not well with Kubo, and his health has been a concern for a long time. Anyone suffering chronic health issues like that deserves some human compassion.

Again, prove to me that it is because of his work that he is sick. You have no idea if he has an underlying illness that is actually the cause and is unrelated to his work.

I already said he if was suffering from some illness I'd feel bad for him and don't wish anyone to be sick. But until you prove to me it's from his work you're just full of shit.

---------- Post added at 09:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 AM ----------

I really don't want to weigh in on this argument, partly because it's going a little far and partly because truth be told I can kind of, sort of, partly see where you're coming from. Kind of. Yes, he's being compensated and no, he's not saving lives. And frankly I don't think mangaka is a profession anyone chooses for the money, so I think that, yes, he's doing something he ultimately enjoys, telling a story he wants to tell (even if there may be some interference from the editors). On the spectrum of people living decent lives and people living through real shit, he's certainly not on the lower end of humanity.
But still, the guy's working hard. Maybe there's no need to shed a tear for him, but his work should at least be acknowledged, especially since we consume it on a weekly basis, so evidently we all enjoy it to some degree or another.

I've already said I acknowledge his work and appreciate it (for my money Bleach is one of the most beautifully draw manga out there).

And I agree, I don't think people choose the profession for the money. But there comes a point where your self sacrifice is for a reason. If you aren't being fulfilled anymore or are working so much it makes you sick maybe you should stop, especially when you financially secure. Yes, there are issues such as breaking a contract and things of that nature, but if your health and happiness is paramount then none of that should matter.

THAT is why I won't feel bad if Kubo is sick because of his work. He chooses to do it and is the source of his own suffering, and isn't pursing something noble I won't feel bad for him. Again, with the line of work I'm in I'm exposed to true suffering that is appalling and heartbreaking. Maybe it's made me a cold person in the short time I've done it (and I'm not even in the full profession yet), but it has made me appreciate things more and not feel bad for many people. (If you'd like to know what I do PM as it is very off topic from this conversation and I don't want a MOD to stop what I think is good conversation for the most part.)

Well... I accidentally weighed in on the argument. Anyway, all I actually wanted to ask is - what exactly would serve as evidence that Kubo's in it to entertain, rather than to make money? How would you gauge that? Not even trying to attack you, I'm genuinely curious. I mean, like I said, I find it very hard to believe anyone becomes a mangaka for the money, and Kubo was drawing well before Bleach became successful.

I think maybe he is trying to entertain, or at least he was. When I look at these highly successful people who I actually give a shit about I try and look what they do and who they are. Learning that Kishimoto hasn't taken his wife on a honeymoon to me speaks a lot about his character. Now I'm not Japanese so I don't know the ins and outs of how that works there, but a Honeymoon to an American woman, or European woman in most instances is extremely important. And any woman who says she doesn't want one is lying to you. And while I'm sure Kishi's wife wants for nothing, I think she maybe wants a honeymoon.

With Kubo, I don't know. I know he made an appearance at Comic Con in 2008 and people loved it. That's for the fans. I don't know what Japanese consumer/fan shows he goes to, but doing stuff like that is for the fans.

To me, to do things just to entertain people is a tricky situation. I don't know if I'd call it noble to entertain, but it isn't a bad reason to do anything. At the same time, your life (and thus the lives of your family and friends) should be more important than the entertainment of others. And while I know Japanese culture is different, Kubo owes it to himself and his family to not kill himself working (if that is the cause of his illness) just for the sake of money, fame, or the entertainment of fans.

 

[Sky Render]

Social Justice Warrior

Such great words. Allows me to spot conversations I so do not want to have with people I don't want to have anything to do with and damn does it work every time.

So yeah, to anybody who might think I am referring to them (which I totally am):

The fact that you are being evidently mean in your answers to us just giving a small fraction of a fuck to Kubo's health speaks volumes of the kind of people you are.

You can argue all you want, but you guys are acting mean and there is no reason for you to do so. Please stop it.

 

[ninjabot]

Wow. Social Justice Warrior is a worse insult than asshat?

Lol, you learn something new every day.

 

[Sky Render]

Wow. Social Justice Warrior is a worse insult than asshat?

Lol, you learn something new every day.

By all means no. It's not even an insult. Just an indicator.

In any case, I fail to see how me defending Kubo would equal to me defending "Social Justice".

 

[ninjabot]

I'm well aware it's usually used by the most disgusting of people like the Gamergate idiots, or homophobes or sexists. I'm neither of those things though.

But I understand what it's supposed to mean and that's why I used it. Social Justice Warrior is an label used against people that are coming off as apologists or over-sympathizers or enablers for people that don't really deserve it. Cause it's what you're doing.

For example: if someone goes on a shooting spree and people start claiming "He's a victim of society! It's not his fault! Too many violent videogames and rap music! Blame society!" That's a Social Justice Warrior. They're fighting a cause that isn't their own, that doesn't even need to be fought, because it saves people from the consequences of their choices (in this case, saves Kubo from having to sleep in the bed he made for himself).

Ergo, I called you such because you're trying to paint Kubo as some sort of victim. Which he isn't.

 

[Firebird0ne]

@ Delbi - While I did defend the absolute truth that a mangaka's life is not easy, I did not claim that I know his health condition or that sympathy for him should be based on what he has wrong with him or how he got it. My argument has been all along that no matter why he is ill, it is not overreacting or doing anything wrong to show sympathy and compassion for him. That is the human thing to do. Rather, to express such vehemence as you do is a sign of a lack of human compassion. Sorry if you have a problem with that.

@ Ninjabot - You are making the assumption that his illness is because of his work. How do you know whether it is or not? So, therefore, how can you say that it's his own fault? You can't make that judgment without knowing why he's ill. He's had pneumonia and been hospitalized several times in the past few years. It could be a chronic condition that he simply hasn't spoken of in public. So, you might want to consider that before judging him so harshly.

 

[ninjabot]

@ Ninjabot - You are making the assumption that his illness is because of his work. How do you know whether it is or not? So, therefore, how can you say that it's his own fault? You can't make that judgment without knowing why he's ill. He's had pneumonia and been hospitalized several times in the past few years. It could be a chronic condition that he simply hasn't spoken of in public. So, you might want to consider that before judging him so harshly.

Isn't everyone?

If we weren't, why are you remarking about how hard the job is and what medical problems it can cause? Trust me, we wouldn't even be having this argument if I didn't think you guys were trying to pass off being a manga artist as more difficult than it actually is. If he has medical conditions unaffiliated with his less than dangerous job as a mangaka, then I'll drop the argument this second.

Matter-of-factly, I said we can't prove what his medical condition is and thus can't prove he deserves the prostrating that you guys are giving him.

 

[Sky Render]

I'm well aware it's usually used by the most disgusting of people like the Gamergate idiots, or homophobes or sexists. I'm neither of those things though.

But I understand what it's supposed to mean and that's why I used it. Social Justice Warrior is an label used against people that are coming off as apologists or over-sympathizers or enablers for people that don't really deserve it. Cause it's what you're doing.

For example: if someone goes on a shooting spree and people start claiming "He's a victim of society! It's not his fault! Too many violent videogames and rap music! Blame society!" That's a Social Justice Warrior. They're fighting a cause that isn't their own, that doesn't even need to be fought, because it saves people from the consequences of their choices (in this case, saves Kubo from having to sleep in the bed he made for himself).

Ergo, I called you such because you're trying to paint Kubo as some sort of victim. Which he isn't.

On one hand, I am genuinely impressed that you are in fact not one of those people you mention in the first paragraph. Bravo. No irony here, I mean it. Your overall last response reads as reasonable. I may have misjudged you.

On the other hand, fuck's sake, I just feel sorry for this dude who works a lot and gets sick (and he has said many times that his health gets worse every year). Therefore I am pissed when people are mean to him. That's all. How is this being an apologist and why the hell doesn't Kubo (or any mangaka for that matter, since they're all overworking in today's industry) deserve some sympathy?

I mean, I don't want the UN to drop by his place and give him an award or a memorial or whatever. I just feel sorry for him and therefore am puzzled and pissed when somebody lashes back or say he doesn't deserve my pity for whatever reason.

Jesus I just wanted to point out he works a lot and that it sucks. Nothing more.

 

[Firebird0ne]

Isn't everyone?

If we weren't, why are you remarking about how hard the job is and what medical problems it can cause? Trust me, we wouldn't even be having this argument if I didn't think you guys were trying to pass off being a manga artist as more difficult than it actually is. If he has medical conditions unaffiliated with his less than dangerous job as a mangaka, then I'll drop the argument this second.

Matter-of-factly, I said we can't prove what his medical condition is and thus can't prove he deserves the prostrating that you guys are giving him.

Just curious...if you see a person pass out in front of you, do you yell at them to wake up and prove it's not their own fault before you help them? The logic you are using here is extremely barbaric.

Oh, and to be clear, my argument is and has been all along that it doesn't matter why Kubo is ill, he still deserves compassion. Please stop telling me what I am arguing.

PS...Having compassion for him is not 'prostrating.'

 

[exacta]

I don't have compassion for a certain kind of person. If you knew anything about you would understand that I don't lack compassion for other people, especially considering the line of work I've been steering my career into. You shouldn't make generalizations about someone on the internet because you disagree with them.

If that makes me entitled so be it. I know where my own values lie and I know I have compassion. Guess I should expect people to make presumptions on this forum.

I'm not putting down the profession, and I do understand how hard these guys work. What I am doing is throwing aside the notion that I should feel sorry for men who choose their own demise for the sake of money or "entertainment" of others. If their goal was to entertain and not make money, or they had some higher purpose as to please fans or something I think it'd show maybe I would feel bad but there's no evidence whatsoever that I've been able to find that Kubo is like that.

And again, I see no evidence that Kubo is sick because of his work. None.

Presumptions? Um no, you need to word your opinions more carefully. I can't take you seriously if your complaining about getting backlash here, in the Bleach forum. Is there a forum here where criticism is more welcome than here? Why don't you post what you said about Kubo about Oda in the One Piece forum? You'll get torn apart in seconds. Stop whining about being "judged".

Doesn't matter whether you see evidence, if he was sick because of it you wouldn't care if what you said before is true, and regardless of his reason for doing it, it would still be for the sake of your entertainment. And you have no evidence that he doesn't do it for the sake of entertainment either. YOU'RE the one making generalizations and assumptions, where's the proof that Kubo doesn't care about fans and just wants money?

I don't know what your profession or career is, but if you want people to respect your profession, then respect other professions, especially if it's one you have no experience in. You need to be very careful when you speak about other peoples professions, especially in a public forum. I think this is an example of the "lack of awareness" that Sky Render mentioned before. This is why you sound entitled. Respect other people's hard work. Don't assume they just care about money when you don't even know them. Don't say ANYTHING when they take time off that they are supposed to have. That is if you want people to respect your work.