Canon The conclusive Luffy vs DD thread

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Shasha23

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How does the Manga show this, where exactly?
I was about to ask the same thing, some times I feel like people aren't reading the same manga as some of us, maybe he should watch the anime part of this so he can get a clue of how the fight went down, I mean in the whole fight when it was 1 on 1 Doffy didn't even damage Luffy while on the other hand Luffy was landing kicks and punches and kkck thinks Doffy was "overwhelmingly more powerful"???? just don't get how he got that from that fight

hmmm just finished re-reading the fight and kkck is right even though he is going overboard with the "overwhelmingly more powerful" statement.
Doffy was beating Luffy before G4 but the problem is his attacks didn't really do that much damage to Luffy, Doffy was a bit faster than Luffy before G4 but Luffy wasn't using G2 when he was, this was almost very similar to Luffy vs Lucci fight where Luffy was just a little bit slower and weaker before G2 but after G2 was outright stronger, think the same can be said about this fight.
Doffy was a little bit faster and stronger to Luffy but after G4 he was outright weaker and stood no chance
 
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I Am Atomic

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@kkck Why do you keep saying Gear 2 and 3 is useless against DD generally? DD could have meant that gear 2 and 3 will be unable to take him down in the limited time. You are implying that gear 2 does 0 damage.
 

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@kkck Why do you keep saying Gear 2 and 3 is useless against DD generally? DD could have meant that gear 2 and 3 will be unable to take him down in the limited time. You are implying that gear 2 does 0 damage.
Well not sure if Gear 2 can really be enough if DD used Awakening too tbh
Gear 3 tho is just too slow, and not even stronger than Gear 4 too.. It's just good to beat a huge number of fodders I guess or slow opponents
 

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Well not sure if Gear 2 can really be enough if DD used Awakening too tbh
Gear 3 tho is just too slow, and not even stronger than Gear 4 too.. It's just good to beat a huge number of fodders I guess or slow opponents
Yeah I do know that gear 2 and gear 3 are not enough to beat Doflamingo. Gear 4 is needed to fight his awakening. I am just saying that gear 2 can do some damage to Doflamingo unlike what kkck make it out to be.

---------- Post added at 03:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:58 PM ----------

@kkck

[video]https://youtu.be/b-N1Rg_ZPds?t=503[/video]

Watch this exchange between Luffy and Doflamingo. In the settings you watch it 4 times slower. Luffy first punched with haki but DD blocked it but at the same time Luffy hit DD's stomach then punched his face and then dealt an uppercut but DD only managed to knee Luffy.

Luffy dealt 4 blows but DD could only attack once.
 

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Yeah I do know that gear 2 and gear 3 are not enough to beat Doflamingo. Gear 4 is needed to fight his awakening. I am just saying that gear 2 can do some damage to Doflamingo unlike what kkck make it out to be.
The only instance where gear 2 apparently did anything to doflamingo was when luffy used redhawk. Which to begin with luffy landed because of law's help and the manga conveniently brushes off as having caused no damage.
https://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/40425
http://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/760/12
http://www.mangastream.to/one-piece-chapter-761-page-8.html

There isn't any evidence of luffy really keeping with doflamingo with gear 2 or 3. Or of him being able to deal any real damage with them (safe for redhawk). Luffy with gear 2 or 3 actually did about as well as law did against doflamingo.

---------- Post added at 04:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 PM ----------

Yeah I do know that gear 2 and gear 3 are not enough to beat Doflamingo. Gear 4 is needed to fight his awakening. I am just saying that gear 2 can do some damage to Doflamingo unlike what kkck make it out to be.

---------- Post added at 03:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:58 PM ----------

@kkck

[video]https://youtu.be/b-N1Rg_ZPds?t=503[/video]

Watch this exchange between Luffy and Doflamingo. In the settings you watch it 4 times slower. Luffy first punched with haki but DD blocked it but at the same time Luffy hit DD's stomach then punched his face and then dealt an uppercut but DD only managed to knee Luffy.

Luffy dealt 4 blows but DD could only attack once.
Is that how it happened in the manga though? As far as I can tell that is not the case.
 

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Yeah I think many of us forget that manga logic isn't real life logic. By that I mean that normally Gamma knife should have killed DD on the spot, because no amount of stitching can really help against an internal bleeding. If you bleed too much internally you die. Same for WB etc. The point being that DD got up and continued to fight, and he didn't seem that affected. Being affected usually translates as his movements being slow, him suddenly taking more damage from regular attacks etc.

That was not the case. After Gamma knife Luffy still used Gear 2 and if DD was really weak at that point, then a Gear 2 punch would have made more damage...but it didn't. While Luffy landed a few hits DD was still taunting him by saying he wasn't hurt. Also Luffy simply assumes that DD is affected, there's no way for him to know for sure that he was. He simply didn't want to waste the window of opportunity given by Law and thought that DD was really weakened.

But I really doubt it. DD was able to tank in even the Leo Bazooka. If he was really on the verge of dying, because of his organs being hit by Gamma knife, then he simply wouldn't have gotten up again.So it can't be that the Gamma knife was really that damaging,to the point it crippled DD and made him weak and frankly it doesn't matter, because we saw plenty of characters receiving deadly blows and standing up again to resume their fight like nothing happened.And Holt WB didn't die because of Magma Kouzou's punch, he was also sickely because of his old age. During the war there were a few times where he was taken by the sickness and almost collapsed. You could see him holding his chest so that too played, not just the injuries.And frankly all those don't really matter in the end, he was already dying.

So it's certainly not fair to say that Luffy won because of Gamma knife.It's not fair to Luffy because Gear 4 was effective against DD, maybe too effective as it simply allowed Luffy to surpass him in terms of strength and speed. And it's not fair to DD either because he's really a tank, and he was able to withstand all those attacks and continue to fight.

So I'm really not confident this is the right analysis of how things went with Luffy and DD. Gear 4 is powerful but limited in time, but it was still able to hurt DD more than Gear 2 and 3 combined. And DD has an outstanding defense and stamina, that's why he was able to come back numerous times despite suffering heavy injuries.Gamma knife alone is certainly not what decided the outcome of the fight, if that were really the case there would have been no need for Luffy's help to begin with.

The whole point of Gamma knife(other than Law trying to get his revenge) is simply to make Luffy and DD enter the fight without being fresh. DD was fresh before Gamma knife, it's just that maybe Oda went a little overboard with it, by saying it targeted the organs. It prolly wasn't the best decision he made.
 
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Through all of it. As far as I can tell before using gear 4 there are 2 instances of luffy fighting doflamingo alone which are in the links I showed before. The following chapters to be precise:
http://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/745
Really? The moment where Luffy is fighting Joker and attacked from behind is Joker dominating Luffy? That was literally a 2 on 1 situation. Every situation where it's a 2 on 1 situation has the person with more numbers having the advantage whether it's Joker or Luffy, it really is simple mathematics in this scenarios. When Joker + 1 more are against Luffy, they have the advantage; when Luffy + Law are against Joker, they have the advantage, so that's not proof that Joker was superior.

Through all of it. As far as I can tell before using gear 4 there are 2 instances of luffy fighting doflamingo alone which are in the links I showed before. The following chapters to be precise:
http://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/783
This chapter didn't show Joker being clearly superior:
His Bazooka attack is not proof that Joker overwhelmed Luffy, the fact is Joker was in the air which means he could cut down the power of the attack to an extent or he'd surely have reacted like he did to Luffy's earlier attacks while they were on ground. So, one of his attacks didn't draw blood, but what about the other attacks that drew blood in his Gear 2nd form, are they irrelevant?

Luffy's Gear 3rd clearly was also too slow to reach Joker. At the end of it all, his Gear 2nd form was able to keep up with Joker and hurt him; thing is like Barrier said, it wasn't enough to conclude things within 30 minutes which is why he needed to rely on Gear 4th.

Yoiu've provided 2 instances of which Joker had the upper hand in a 1v1 scenario, the thing is there are times Luffy had the upper hand too; having the upperhand in a 1 on 1 situation is not something that can be credited solely to Joker.
 

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The whole point of Gamma knife(other than Law trying to get his revenge) is simply to make Luffy and DD enter the fight without being fresh. DD was fresh before Gamma knife, it's just that maybe Oda went a little overboard with it, by saying it targeted the organs. It prolly wasn't the best decision he made.
Oda being annoying for no reason basically, could've avoided all this if the Chinjao and the likes were introduced differently
Muh legendary pirate, muh legendary pirate couldn't beat a fodder character like Lao G
 
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kkck

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Really? The moment where Luffy is fighting Joker and attacked from behind is Joker dominating Luffy? That was literally a 2 on 1 situation. Every situation where it's a 2 on 1 situation has the person with more numbers having the advantage whether it's Joker or Luffy, it really is simple mathematics in this scenarios. When Joker + 1 more are against Luffy, they have the advantage; when Luffy + Law are against Joker, they have the advantage, so that's not proof that Joker was superior.


This chapter didn't show Joker being clearly superior:
His Bazooka attack is not proof that Joker overwhelmed Luffy, the fact is Joker was in the air which means he could cut down the power of the attack to an extent or he'd surely have reacted like he did to Luffy's earlier attacks while they were on ground. So, one of his attacks didn't draw blood, but what about the other attacks that drew blood in his Gear 2nd form, are they irrelevant?

Luffy's Gear 3rd clearly was also too slow to reach Joker. At the end of it all, his Gear 2nd form was able to keep up with Joker and hurt him; thing is like Barrier said, it wasn't enough to conclude things within 30 minutes which is why he needed to rely on Gear 4th.

Yoiu've provided 2 instances of which Joker had the upper hand in a 1v1 scenario, the thing is there are times Luffy had the upper hand too; having the upperhand in a 1 on 1 situation is not something that can be credited solely to Joker.
Two on one? Joker is using his clone. His clone doesn't count as a separate individual, it is not a circumstantial technique. Anything done with doflamingo's clone counts as 1 on 1. Doflamingo could use a battalion of thread clones and it would still be one on one.

Well, what other attacks? When did luffy fight doflamingo alone and hold his ground? As far as I can tell there aren't instances of luffy using gear two or three and actually dealing damage on his own. Most confrontations between the two under the specific circumstance of neither side having third party help end with luffy taking damage while doflamingo takes virtually none. Luffy fared no better than law did using gear 2 or 3
 

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Oda being annoying for no reason basically, could've avoided all this if the Shitjao and the likes were introduced differently
Muh legendary pirate, muh legendary pirate couldn't beat a fodder character like Lao G
Lol it's prolly better not to open that can of worms...

But I think the whole point of the arc was to have Luffy get as many allies as possible. It certainly isn't that Luffy asked for their help, they all decided of their own volition to bet on him and saw him as the only person who could beat DD and save everyone. I'm not confident anyone else would have been able to take down DD, not even Sabo. He might even be more in danger since he only ate the Mera Mera recently, and against DD only someone who is an experienced DF user stands a chance imo.And well Fujitora simply couldn't, because of the whole Shichibukai thing.
So did Oda intentionally have Law "help" Luffy? Yes because he wanted to flesh out their alliance by having Law trying to take out DD only to fail and let Luffy do it instead. So now Law has a rather big debt towards Luffy.
And Dressrosa in general is going to have a big impact, we can already say it's the case because of Luffy indirectly saving the minks from getting exterminated by Jack.

Just because Luffy received all this help doesn't mean he's weak and can't do anything on his own.
 
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kkck

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Yeah I think many of us forget that manga logic isn't real life logic. By that I mean that normally Gamma knife should have killed DD on the spot, because no amount of stitching can really help against an internal bleeding. If you bleed too much internally you die. Same for WB etc. The point being that DD got up and continued to fight, and he didn't seem that affected. Being affected usually translates as his movements being slow, him suddenly taking more damage from regular attacks etc.

That was not the case. After Gamma knife Luffy still used Gear 2 and if DD was really weak at that point, then a Gear 2 punch would have made more damage...but it didn't. While Luffy landed a few hits DD was still taunting him by saying he wasn't hurt. Also Luffy simply assumes that DD is affected, there's no way for him to know for sure that he was. He simply didn't want to waste the window of opportunity given by Law and thought that DD was really weakened.

But I really doubt it. DD was able to tank in even the Leo Bazooka. If he was really on the verge of dying, because of his organs being hit by Gamma knife, then he simply wouldn't have gotten up again.So it can't be that the Gamma knife was really that damaging,to the point it crippled DD and made him weak and frankly it doesn't matter, because we saw plenty of characters receiving deadly blows and standing up again to resume their fight like nothing happened.And Holt WB didn't die because of Magma Kouzou's punch, he was also sickely because of his old age. During the war there were a few times where he was taken by the sickness and almost collapsed. You could see him holding his chest so that too played, not just the injuries.And frankly all those don't really matter in the end, he was already dying.

So it's certainly not fair to say that Luffy won because of Gamma knife.It's not fair to Luffy because Gear 4 was effective against DD, maybe too effective as it simply allowed Luffy to surpass him in terms of strength and speed. And it's not fair to DD either because he's really a tank, and he was able to withstand all those attacks and continue to fight.

So I'm really not confident this is the right analysis of how things went with Luffy and DD. Gear 4 is powerful but limited in time, but it was still able to hurt DD more than Gear 2 and 3 combined. And DD has an outstanding defense and stamina, that's why he was able to come back numerous times despite suffering heavy injuries.Gamma knife alone is certainly not what decided the outcome of the fight, if that were really the case there would have been no need for Luffy's help to begin with.

The whole point of Gamma knife(other than Law trying to get his revenge) is simply to make Luffy and DD enter the fight without being fresh. DD was fresh before Gamma knife, it's just that maybe Oda went a little overboard with it, by saying it targeted the organs. It prolly wasn't the best decision he made.
Even if we ignore logic it's a bit of a stretch that doflamingo did not suffer any damage from the attack though. True, he didn't "seem" affected. However that is simply because in this manga taking damage does not necessarily translate to being slower, weaker or appearing tired. And even if they do weaken they would still have superhuman strength, speed and stamina anyways. In most of the manga's fights that is how it works. People get thrown through buildings, they get stabbed, and so on and yet continue to fight. That does not mean no damage is dealt, it simply means people have the stamina to continue in spite of it which is a dramatically different scenario from an attack not doing damage (unless the manga makes the point that whatever happened did not cause damage). Take WB for instance. Under your reasoning the implication would be that he got stabbed, shot, burned, frozen and then had his half his face burned of by akainu but in turn none of it caused any damage because he seemed to fight just like before. Which doesn't make sense even within the insane context presented in the manga. Consider how BB died. He died shortly after taking an attack from BB's crew. However how does that compare to everything else WB went through? In context it's not more than what he had received before. He had been shot, stabbed and burned before that moment after all. However WB died after it. Was it because he reached his limit and all the damage he had accumulated finally got to him or was it because for some reason what BB and his crew did at the end for some reason do more damage than everything that had happened before? It's the same with doflamingo. Every bit of damage doflamingo took counted towards his ultimate defeat.

I mean, how can it be the same for doflamingo to fight with his organs in the sorry state they were (sewn up) as fighting with perfectly healthy organs? How could the final confrontation with doflamingo go the same way it did without doflamingo having been punched, stabbed, slashed and everything else which was done to him? Sure, logic doesn't necessarily apply. But there is nothing reasonable about what is being suggested here even within the ridiculous context of this manga.
 

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Even if we ignore logic it's a bit of a stretch that doflamingo did not suffer any damage from the attack though. True, he didn't "seem" affected. However that is simply because in this manga taking damage does not necessarily translate to being slower, weaker or appearing tired. And even if they do weaken they would still have superhuman strength, speed and stamina anyways. In most of the manga's fights that is how it works. People get thrown through buildings, they get stabbed, and so on and yet continue to fight. That does not mean no damage is dealt, it simply means people have the stamina to continue in spite of it which is a dramatically different scenario from an attack not doing damage (unless the manga makes the point that whatever happened did not cause damage). Take WB for instance. Under your reasoning the implication would be that he got stabbed, shot, burned, frozen and then had his half his face burned of by akainu but in turn none of it caused any damage because he seemed to fight just like before. Which doesn't make sense even within the insane context presented in the manga. Consider how BB died. He died shortly after taking an attack from BB's crew. However how does that compare to everything else WB went through? In context it's not more than what he had received before. He had been shot, stabbed and burned before that moment after all. However WB died after it. Was it because he reached his limit and all the damage he had accumulated finally got to him or was it because for some reason what BB and his crew did at the end for some reason do more damage than everything that had happened before? It's the same with doflamingo. Every bit of damage doflamingo took counted towards his ultimate defeat.

I mean, how can it be the same for doflamingo to fight with his organs in the sorry state they were (sewn up) as fighting with perfectly healthy organs? How could the final confrontation with doflamingo go the same way it did without doflamingo having been punched, stabbed, slashed and everything else which was done to him? Sure, logic doesn't necessarily apply. But there is nothing reasonable about what is being suggested here even within the ridiculous context of this manga.
So he took all that damage and could still fight. That certainly doesn't mean he was weaker because of it, which many people have been saying.
Like you said receiving some really heavy injuries doesn't translate to becoming weak, far from it.DD's performance in that regard didn't change.So it has to be that while normally DD couldn't be hurt by pre Gear 4 Luffy, since his PL if you will is the same, then DD simply couldn't hold his own against Gear 4 Luffy.
Which is the whole point of this discussion, to figure out if Luffy was indeed stronger than DD.
So DD's perforamance wasn't affected by Gamma knife, he could still stand up after using it, he could also tank in the Leo Bazooka, but he couldn't stand the King Kong Gun which is Luffy's last resort when he faces opponents who are stronger than usual.
So while Gamma knife might have affected DD, it certainly didn't make him weaker or less of a fighter. It didn't incapaciate him.
So Gear 4 Luffy is superior to DD.

But in the end DD went down because of all the injuries he sustained....or just because he received a giant punch to the head. :cookiehand
 
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My only problem with that fight is the fact that Luffy broke out of Parasite using Gear 4, despite the fact that he wasn't able to move, which he needs to be able to do to blow air into his muscles to even activate the technique. Other than that, Doffy is superior to base Luffy, and Gear 4 Luffy is unable to be harmed by Doffy. If Doffy could harm Luffy's armament increased elastic body, I think it's likely he'd stand a better chance against Luffy.
 

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Two on one? Joker is using his clone. His clone doesn't count as a separate individual, it is not a circumstantial technique. Anything done with doflamingo's clone counts as 1 on 1. Doflamingo could use a battalion of thread clones and it would still be one on one.
No, sorry, that's absurd and essentially throwing logic out the window. It's a 2 on 1 situation nonetheless and a situation that requires focusing on 2 opponents at once; it's no different to putting one's head in the sand and concluding that no one can see you.

Well, what other attacks? When did luffy fight doflamingo alone and hold his ground? As far as I can tell there aren't instances of luffy using gear two or three and actually dealing damage on his own.
They're there, you're disregarding it:
Then what is this?1,2,3,4. Where in all that is Joker having the advantage? No one landed a hit, both evaded each other's attacks; something which Law wasn't very well capable of doing.

What about here? Where's Joker's dominance?1,2
,3,4,5,6,7

What are those? A lot of them are pretty much them stalemating whilst in Gear 2nd; how many times did we see Law being able to stand his ground that much against Joker? It was utterly a 1 sided event in their duel while Joker is actually being stopped and pushed.

Where is that overwhelming advantage he showed against Luffy when he used his clone? It's non-existent where it's not a 2 on 1 situation whether in favour of Luffy or Joker which logically implies and shows they're pretty much evenly matched.

The abilities Joker used on Luffy were not all used on Law; Law was no match for Joker while Luffy was holding his own even with Gear 2nd.
 
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No, sorry, that's absurd and essentially throwing logic out the window. It's a 2 on 1 situation nonetheless and a situation that requires focusing on 2 opponents at once; it's no different to putting one's head in the sand and concluding that no one can see you.


They're there, you're disregarding it:
Then what is this?1,2,3,4. Where in all that is Joker having the advantage? No one landed a hit, both evaded each other's attacks; something which Law wasn't very well capable of doing.

What about here? Where's Joker's dominance?1,2
,3,4,5,6,7

What are those? A lot of them are pretty much them stalemating whilst in Gear 2nd; how many times did we see Law being able to stand his ground that much against Joker? It was utterly a 1 sided event in their duel while Joker is actually being stopped and pushed.

Where is that overwhelming advantage he showed against Luffy when he used his clone? It's non-existent where it's not a 2 on 1 situation whether in favour of Luffy or Joker which logically implies and shows they're pretty much evenly matched.

The abilities Joker used on Luffy were not all used on Law; Law was no match for Joker while Luffy was holding his own even with Gear 2nd.
Why would it be absurd? doflamingo's string clone isn't a separate individual from doflamingo himself, it's is an ordinary technique with no consciousness of its own. There is no rational reason to consider this 2 on 1, the alternative is to treat it like a person that helped doflamingo. This isn't more 1 on 1 than, say, naruto using his kage bushin against an enemy. The amount of clones luffy has to focus on is irrelevant, it's still doflamingo's technique.

Stalemating? Only if you consider individual frames. Looking at the fights as a whole it is quite clear doflamingo is the one dealing the most damage. In the links you show there is one more scene with luffy dealing some punches that I did not consider earlier but it still does not changes relatively little. It's a relatively short skirmish which ends with doflamingo kicking luffy back, cutting him with strings and trapping him inside trebol. Luffy using hawk whip clearly did not cause any damage either, and doflanigo was not even going for luffy. And luffy being able to hold back doflamingo does not mean they were even at that stage. Take sabo vs burgues for example. Sabo took a bit to defeat burgues but that does not mean burgues was on sabo's level at all. It's just means the fight is not one that can be finished instantly. However it is still a fight which sabo won with a more than ample margin. It's the same situation here. Even if luffy landed a hit every confrontation he had with doflamingo pre gear 4 ended with doflamingo having the advantage and the links you show are not an exception. Unless of course you look at individual frames rather than the entire confrontation.
 

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Why would it be absurd? doflamingo's string clone isn't a separate individual from doflamingo himself, it's is an ordinary technique with no consciousness of its own. There is no rational reason to consider this 2 on 1, the alternative is to treat it like a person that helped doflamingo.
Just because the clone is a part of his technique does not make it any less of a 2 on 1 situation. Pulling a logical fallacy by disregarding this and a pedantic one at that.

The amount of clones luffy has to focus on is irrelevant, it's still doflamingo's technique.
Logic is definitey out the window here, if Luffy struggled fighting with Joker + his clone, why wouldn't he struggle against fighting more than 1 clone?

If this wasn't a 2 on 1 situation or multiple opponents were not relevant in Luffy's or Joker's status in the fight, surely, Joker would only have to stand just to meet Luffy with his fist in his face everytime, but it that the case? No.

Even if it's his technique, it's still a 2 on 1; the whole purpose of a 2 on 1 is to give the advantage in numbers, and that's the point and the result of every 2 on 1 situation.

It's a relatively short skirmish which ends with doflamingo kicking luffy back, cutting him with strings and trapping him inside trebol.
You make it sound like that kick concluded the entire thing, and of course, into Trebol. Isn't this more or less a 2 on 1 situation too? It's not like Luffy couldn't have gotten back up to challenge Joker if Trebol weren't in the way? It's not like he was incapacitated and struggling to stand or make the next step.

Luffy using hawk whip clearly did not cause any damage either, and doflanigo was not even going for luffy.
That's the point, Doflamingo wasn't going for Luffy, yet he got stopped and that wasn't the first time. If he could just get his way, he'd have killed Law.

One can say Joker's athlete thread didn't hurt Luffy either, only result of that kick was Luffy ended up in Trebol's slime and got stuck.

How exactly is Luffy stopping Joker from killing Law not different to Kizaru being stopped by Rayleigh in his attempt to kill Zoro? I guess you analysis would be that Rayleigh isn't at least on par with Kizaru for being able and ultimately stopping him from having his way.

Stalemating? Only if you consider individual frames. Looking at the fights as a whole it is quite clear doflamingo is the one dealing the most damage.
If it were one panel where Luffy did that, then your analysis would be valid. The thing however is both have these moments of stalemate over and over again, so you really can't attribute that Joker was superior if looking at things objectively.

Also, what do you expect from individual panels? They're not exactly going to turn into animations. There's only so much a panel will be able to convey. How else did you try to prove that Joker was superior? With panels, so I don't see why using panels to make a point is now suddenly an invalid way to show the fact that they were indeed stalemating.

Also, the fact that these panels of stalemating usually carry-on to the next page essentially proves that they were indeed stalemating, or it'd end up with Joker always coming out on top like is the case in his fight against Law.

Can you show Law having those moments of stalemating with Joker? Probably not. Almost every clash Law has with Joker ends with Joker having the upperhand and Law barely surviving.

Take sabo vs burgues for example. Sabo took a bit to defeat burgues but that does not mean burgues was on sabo's level at all.
You can't even begin to compare Sabo's fight with Burgess as similar to Luffy vs Joker:
  1. Sabo defeated Burgess in 10 minutes.
  2. We never saw Burgess hold his own against Sabo, he came out short in every attempt to attack made.
  3. Sabo wasn't hurt by Burgess while Burgess was clearly hurt by the time we revisit their fight.
We never even saw them Stalemating, Sabo was shown having the upperhand all the time while this is not the case with Joker and Luffy.
 

Fuuji Genichiro

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ok, this argument about doflamingo stalling because luffy was too powerful is bullshit, you all seem not to understand how luffy fights.
he gets more power by fighting more recklessly, sacrificing more life span and stamina while he does it (although he regains energy rather quickly), so if those drawbacks outweigh the advantages, then taking advantage of the drawbacks is just as plausible as luffy using its unfairly massive increase in power, this isnt a plus for doffy, but its a minus for luffy. you cant judge a persons strentgh without looking at weakness, and if a weakness is ultra specific, then thats on luffy, notice how doflamingo has none of these problems, or akainu, or whitebeard or sengoku.... the guys who fight within the limits of their own strength.
haven't seen any refutations about the fact that doflamingo was already handicapped.

Anyone can be more powerful by fighting recklessly, luffy's DF just allows him to do it to an extent which would kill normal people. i dont see anyone where who could tell me that doffy was RUNNING, no, he tanked all those ridiculously powerful hits, DEFENSE is just as relevant in a battle as attack. if after all the handicaps and sacrificed lifespan, doflamingo can still take all those hits, and begin to demolish an army("i dont need any 'stamina' for you fodder), whereas, luffy has to take a nice 10 minute rest, its pretty obvious who the monster here is.

for the guy who mentioned whitebeard destroying akainu after being impaled twice, thanks for proving my point, im sure whitebeard wasn't gasping for breath or screaming in pain, but don't bullshit me and say he wasn't seriously injured or that he wasnt feeling any pain.

So yeah, take away those handicaps, and doflamingo wipes the floor with luffy, i cant believe after all that people underrate doflamingo, just because he lost in the end.

Gear 4th was developed for monsters that he couldn't normally handle, from luffy's own words, so if he had to go gear 4th for doflamingo, which still wasn't enough, then gear 2nd was pretty damn useless against him,

---------- Post added at 11:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 AM ----------

stitches don't mean the wound has healed, the fibers have still been torn, they aren't connected, thus they aren't as effective, and they still hurt, albeit not as much as the open wounds, i don't see why this isn't the case (or worse) for otherwise fatal internal stitches.
And unless there is some double standard for doflamingo, where fighting moves take some energy, while an immovable fortress like birdcage that zorro, hundreds of fighters, hundreds of navy soilders, thousands of towns people, a navy admiral, franky, and a few hundreds tonttatas (stronger than the towns people), takes no effort at all, despite it being the same DF, and the exact same strings from the clones. why diidnt those immovable strings demolish luffy?
 
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I Am Atomic

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ok, this argument about doflamingo stalling because luffy was too powerful is bullshit, you all seem not to understand how luffy fights.
he gets more power by fighting more recklessly, sacrificing more life span and stamina while he does it (although he regains energy rather quickly), so if those drawbacks outweigh the advantages, then taking advantage of the drawbacks is just as plausible as luffy using its unfairly massive increase in power, this isnt a plus for doffy, but its a minus for luffy. you cant judge a persons strentgh without looking at weakness, and if a weakness is ultra specific, then thats on luffy, notice how doflamingo has none of these problems, or akainu, or whitebeard or sengoku.... the guys who fight within the limits of their own strength.
haven't seen any refutations about the fact that doflamingo was already handicapped.

Anyone can be more powerful by fighting recklessly, luffy's DF just allows him to do it to an extent which would kill normal people. i dont see anyone where who could tell me that doffy was RUNNING, no, he tanked all those ridiculously powerful hits, DEFENSE is just as relevant in a battle as attack. if after all the handicaps and sacrificed lifespan, doflamingo can still take all those hits, and begin to demolish an army("i dont need any 'stamina' for you fodder), whereas, luffy has to take a nice 10 minute rest, its pretty obvious who the monster here is.

for the guy who mentioned whitebeard destroying akainu after being impaled twice, thanks for proving my point, im sure whitebeard wasn't gasping for breath or screaming in pain, but don't bullshit me and say he wasn't seriously injured or that he wasnt feeling any pain.

So yeah, take away those handicaps, and doflamingo wipes the floor with luffy, i cant believe after all that people underrate doflamingo, just because he lost in the end.

Gear 4th was developed for monsters that he couldn't normally handle, from luffy's own words, so if he had to go gear 4th for doflamingo, which still wasn't enough, then gear 2nd was pretty damn useless against him,

---------- Post added at 11:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 AM ----------

stitches don't mean the wound has healed, the fibers have still be torn, they aren't connected, thus they aren't as effective, and they still hurt, albeit not as much as open wounds, i don't see why this isn't the case (or worse) for otherwise fatal internal injuries.
You are the one who is not being specific here. Gear 2 was not useless rather it was not enough to beat Doflamingo.

DD can wipe the floor with luffy? Plz give me actual facts and not your thoughts. Luffy was not in best shape either so how can you possibly know that is what is going to happen? Your choice of words are rather not very valid. Even admirals will have trouble beating Luffy.

Doflamingo was actually strategically retreating and not tanking. He used his awakening to keep Luffy at bay and was waiting for Luffy's haki to run out.

Luffy's DF is one of the worst in OP so he have to find creative ways to make it stronger. You said it's minus for luffy but not plus for doffy? WTF? Gear 4's time limit was the minus bit for luffy and that was the plus bit for doffy.
 

Hannibal Psyche

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Anyone can be more powerful by fighting recklessly,
If that was true, Law wouldn't have needed Luffy to dispatch of Joker.

The stalling is pretty much a fact, we saw how Joker couldn't do much with physical attacks and he repetitively used his "white shield" to deter Luffy.
 
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kkck

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How is the stalling a fact? There is no evidence of that.
 
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