Fantasy Natsu Dragneel Vs Laxus Dreyar

[Axel Stone]

No really. It literally says right here, "Right in front of them was the man that went toe to toe with Gildarts".

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Literally the whole reason to even have Natsu oneshot Bluenote is to show how powerful he's become. Bluenote was chosen for the very fact he once was on the level of Gildarts.

Natsu's durability was shown to be pretty decent even without having to take hits from Tempesta. Why is this a problem?

You're changing your mind over and over again. You said that LDJaw from Tartarus would oneshot Natsu. Now you're saying secret art of Fairy Law, which is basically Laxus' best spells.

Yes, Gildartz and Bluenote standed toe to toe with each other but what does have that mean exactly? It means Bluenote was strong enough to make Gildartz serious enough, and in the end still got oneshotted.

Or Bluenote could've become weaker as his prime of age is not there for fighting as it once was. Bluenote is not on the level of Gildartz, you don't go around becoming the level of the same character that oneshotted you.

It's shown to be adequate, but not good enough to take on attacks from Laxus level characters.

I only changed my mind once, not "over and over again". and I explained why I changed my mind once, and that is to give Natsu benefit of doubt and gave him some hype just because. Low to mid diff it is.

 

[Axiomus]

Yes, Gildartz and Bluenote standed toe to toe with each other but what does have that mean exactly? It means Bluenote was strong enough to make Gildartz serious enough, and in the end still got oneshotted.

Or Bluenote could've become weaker as his prime of age is not there for fighting as it once was. Bluenote is not on the level of Gildartz, you don't go around becoming the level of the same character that oneshotted you.

It's shown to be adequate, but not good enough to take on attacks from Laxus level characters.

I only changed my mind once, not "over and over again". and I explained why I changed my mind once, and that is to give Natsu benefit of doubt and gave him some hype just because. Low to mid diff it is.

Man that's a pretty impressive oneshot Gildarts did,
considering he must have had to warp time and hit Bluenote 4 times.
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Such an amazing oneshot that Mashima couldn't portray it on the same page. Actually, he couldn't even portray it within the same chapter. It was so great of a oneshot that he couldn't even portray it within the same attacks. This right here is the definitive example of what taking out somebody with a single hit looks like.

There's no reason to assume that Bluenote got weaker. We've seen characters like Makarov and Warrod grow old, and they were never stated to have gotten weaker. Also, Bluenote is like in his late 30s. He should still be in his prime.

 

[SirSamuel016]

Laxus vs Tempesta shouldn't even be used as an example as it happened in the anime, and at the end of the day the manga is the most relevant source in terms of canon content.

Now, if we're going to use Gildarts vs Bluenote as a reference to Natsu vs Bluenote to scale Natsu's power a bit, then it should be noted that the manga even made a note of Gildarts and Bluenote being equals the very same chapter Natsu causally oneshotted him with a Flame Dragon's Roar. So that puts Alvarez Natsu > Tenrou Gildarts. Now all things considered, it was pretty apparent that Bluenote was the guild master of Orochi Fin, so that means that in those eight years, he wouldn't of slowed down that much, and would at least still be on the same level he was at in the Tenrou arc, perhaps a bit stronger if he trained at all. So we have Gildarts who in my book didn't oneshot Bluenote because the two had exchanged blows, whereas Natsu just went roar and it was all over. There's a clear difference there.

Now, OP didn't state whether Natsu has access to FDK mode or not, so seeing as it wasn't mentioned Natsu doesn't have it. That means he'd only have access to LFDM, Dragon Force and some FDK spells which he's used outside of FDKM. Thats quite an arsenal to have up your sleeve. Now Laxus has shown in Alvarez that he can potentially do severe damage to a low-tier spriggan like Ajeel, so that should be noted as well.

For me, seeing how both sides of the argument have fared, Natsu wins high diff. I say this simply because Laxus really has nothing to match the sheer power, speed and other stuff that Dragon Force gives the user. Lightning-Flame Dragon Mode could potentially reduce damage from Lightning-based attacks due to part of its constitution being lightning as well, and that is something to consider. Laxus would have the upper hand over base Natsu, but Lightning-Flame Dragon Mode would be where Natsu would start to turn the tables with some difficulty imo. Dragon Force is definitely the power that would allow Natsu to win this fight, aside from FDK spells which could do some damage as well.

 

[Axel Stone]

^We're talking about Tempesta vs Laxus fight in the manga.
the anime filler revenge fight was just garbage, and made me like Laxus less.

Orochi Fin is a fodder guild composed of weak characters.
Most likely the strongest member was made to become a GM. Even Cana would become GM of that guild if it's based on strength merit.

Man that's a pretty impressive oneshot Gildarts did, considering he must have had to warp time and hit Bluenote 4 times.

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There's no reason to assume that Bluenote got weaker. We've seen characters like Makarov and Warrod grow old, and they were never stated to have gotten weaker. Also, Bluenote is like in his late 30s. He should still be in his prime.

Thanks for showing those panels. Gotta love the dedication, and makes the debate more easier to part of.
When I meant oneshot, I meant not in fist fighting, but as in spells use.
So far, Gildartz punched Bluenote a few times, and that's about it.

Just because Makarov and Warrod grew old and didn't become as weak can not be exactly applied to Bluenote. and I'm willing to bet Makarov in his prime is stronger than the current Makarov as he doesn't have restraints as in magical heart ilnesses.
Also Bluenote is unknown age wise.

 

[Brandish μ]

What's the point of scaling characters where feats take precedent in threads like these? We can scale Laxus up to having Spriggan+ Level durability because his one named nuke was speculated to oneshot Ajeel or majorily damage him based on your logic of level of high power gained through scaling.

The question you should be asking is 'why is there a thread about characters when they don't yet have all their feats?' I scale to my own opinions because I don't have feats. With reason of course. I am not going to give them dragon level durability. If I give them both Spriggan durability I think that will end up being closer to their true level than giving them Tartarus feats.

We can scale Gray and Erza to Gildartz level durability given the improvements they have shown. Does that make sense to you?
Gildartz was durable enough to survive against Acnologia (albeit non-serious), tank attacks from Natsu and Bluenote with ease, which shits on any durability Natsu has even shown.

Gildarts durability feats against Bluenote and Natsu would qualify for what in this current arc? Gildarts was durable enough to lose limbs and organs against Acno, he was tough enough to survive, I give him mental toughness but Acno didn't finish him off when he could have easily done so, he likely didn't care.

I am fine with people giving Gray or Erza that level of durability as an estimate for a thread like this. Or do you think Gray is still at Tartarus level durability wise??

You can not say Natsu has the same level of durability and endurance, because consistently Laxus has shown greater level of durability and endurance than Natsu has prior to this timeskip. So the onus is set that Laxus should most likely have greater stats in that regard than Natsu.

Think about it relative to their power level and you'll understand.

Oneshotting a character with your strongest move can still be considered a oneshot. Strange concept, I know.
Laxus vs Tempesta was a two shot. If Laxus used a stronger spell, Tempesta would be oneshotted anyway.

Strange concept it is. I actually don't know if there is a single feat in the manga where someone used their best spell straight off the bat. The closest is Makarov using FL, but he briefly fought Jose before that. There is a context in fighting; strange concept, I know. You generally don't use strong spells straight off because of cast time, and you want your opponent to be hit (they are fresh at the start). It's like throwing an uppercut at the start of a boxing fight, heck you shouldn't even lead with your right hand (unless you're southpaw).

The understimation of Gildartz is appalling. Well that happens when you're away for million years.

I bet if I said Jura and not Gildarts you would not have cared. They're basically equals pre-skip, just that Gildarts is revered by fans to a much greater extent. I

 

[Axiomus]

Thanks for showing those panels. Gotta love the dedication, and makes the debate more easier to part of.
When I meant oneshot, I meant not in fist fighting, but as in spells use.
So far, Gildartz punched Bluenote a few times, and that's about it.

Just because Makarov and Warrod grew old and didn't become as weak can not be exactly applied to Bluenote. and I'm willing to bet Makarov in his prime is stronger than the current Makarov as he doesn't have restraints as in magical heart ilnesses.
Also Bluenote is unknown age wise.

So...Gildarts doesn't use magic when he throws his punches?

Okay, first of all, Bluenote is like half Makarov's age no matter which way you try to spin it. Secondly, there's no evidence at all that Bluenote got weaker.

 

[Brandish μ]

Lightning-Flame Dragon Mode could potentially reduce damage from Lightning-based attacks due to part of its constitution being lightning as well, and that is something to consider. Laxus would have the upper hand over base Natsu, but Lightning-Flame Dragon Mode would be where Natsu would start to turn the tables with some difficulty imo.

It actually gets tricky to me when I think of LFD...
- Natsu gets a power boost to his offensive spells
- Does Natsu gain the ability to resist or eat Laxus lightning in LFD?
- Does Laxus gain the ability to resist/eat half of LFD attacks because half of it is lightning?

 

[Axel Stone]

The question you should be asking is 'why is there a thread about characters when they don't yet have all their feats?' I scale to my own opinions because I don't have feats. With reason of course. I am not going to give them dragon level durability. If I give them both Spriggan durability I think that will end up being closer to their true level than giving them Tartarus feats.



Gildarts durability feats against Bluenote and Natsu would qualify for what in this current arc? Gildarts was durable enough to lose limbs and organs against Acno, he was tough enough to survive, I give him mental toughness but Acno didn't finish him off when he could have easily done so, he likely didn't care.

I am fine with people giving Gray or Erza that level of durability as an estimate for a thread like this. Or do you think Gray is still at Tartarus level durability wise??



Think about it relative to their power level and you'll understand.



Strange concept it is. I actually don't know if there is a single feat in the manga where someone used their best spell straight off the bat. The closest is Makarov using FL, but he briefly fought Jose before that. There is a context in fighting; strange concept, I know. You generally don't use strong spells straight off because of cast time, and you want your opponent to be hit (they are fresh at the start). It's like throwing an uppercut at the start of a boxing fight, heck you shouldn't even lead with your right hand (unless you're southpaw).



I bet if I said Jura and not Gildarts you would not have cared. They're basically equals pre-skip, just that Gildarts is revered by fans to a much greater extent. I

Good question, and that's why threads shouldn't be even made in the first place to begin with. These type of questions should only be asked in a power ranking thread if we're just going to scale characters by all will.

I'm not sure where Gray's durability is because it's unknown in time-skip. and I'll leave it at that. Feat-wise, he hasn't shown any durability yet in current timeskip other than casually taking on a punch from Natsu.

Natsu wouldn't qualify for anything other than having adequate durability feats until proven otherwise.

Think about using what type of arguments is best suited for each corresponding thread, and you'll understand.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 30, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 30, 2016 ---

So...Gildarts doesn't use magic when he throws his punches?

Okay, first of all, Bluenote is like half Makarov's age no matter which way you try to spin it. Secondly, there's no evidence at all that Bluenote got weaker.

Well due to the fact they were un-named fist attacks, I would say no. It's no different than a bar fight where a drunk guy punches you a few times angrily.

That's why I said "could've". and given how Bluenote went from getting oneshotted from the strongest attack from the strongest mage in FT to getting blown out by Base Natsu of all people, I'm going to bank on him becoming much weaker.

The last time we saw Bluenote in action was 8 years. Eight years ago, Bluenote looked like he was in his mid to l ate 30s.
now he looks he's in his mid 40s which is plenty of reasons why he is no longer in his prime and has become weak accordingly due to regressive physical embodiment and age regression.

Does it make logical sense for anyone to accept Natsu went from being toyed around with Gildartz and several tiers below him in power to all of a sudden become stronger than him in one bloody fucking year?

 

[Axiomus]

Well due to the fact they were un-named fist attacks, I would say no. It's no different than a bar fight where a drunk guy punches you a few times angrily.

That's why I said "could've". and given how Bluenote went from getting oneshotted from the strongest attack from the strongest mage in FT to getting blown out by Base Natsu of all people, I'm going to bank on him becoming much weaker.

The last time we saw Bluenote in action was 8 years. Eight years ago, Bluenote looked like he was in his mid to l ate 30s.
now he looks he's in his mid 40s which is plenty of reasons why he is no longer in his prime and has become weak accordingly due to regressive physical embodiment and age regression.

So this can be done without magic.

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Well that's amazing. It's so incredible it's almost as if it's...magic.

Even if Bluenote was in his mid 40s....that would be like where Jura is right now. Still no reason to assume he's grown any weaker.

 

[Axel Stone]

So this can be done without magic.

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Even if he was in his mid 40s....that would be like where Jura is right now. Still no reason to assume he's grown any weaker.

Well it was a clash of fists, but based on the collateral damage, I do have to say some portion of magic was imbued in those panels, not too much though because Gildartz has shown to be a monster powerhouse magic wise, so even a little bit of his MP can be dangerous. His magic aura was enough to make Natsu his crying bitch to put it bluntly

Jura could've become weaker too. He hasn't actually shown any impressive feats in timeskip.

Anyway, answer my question.

 

[Axiomus]

Well it was a clash of fists, but based on the collateral damage, I do have to say some portion of magic was imbued in those panels, not too much though because Gildartz has shown to be a monster powerhouse magic wise, so even a little bit of his MP can be dangerous. His magic aura was enough to make Natsu his crying bitch to put it bluntly

Jura could've become weaker too. He hasn't actually shown any impressive feats in timeskip.

Well what about this one?

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And this one?

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So when the manga says Bluenote was a man that once stood toe to toe with Gildarts, what it really meant was that he was someone who got Gildarts to oneshot him. When Gildarts and Bluenote collided fists multiple times, it doesn't count bcause Gildarts was never really using any magic. Except when he was, which was most of the time, because Gildarts still didn't use a lot of his magic. We know this because Natsu wasn't impressed at all by this punch...

Why stop at Bluenote? Why not say Gildarts is weaker as well?

 

[Axel Stone]

Well what about this one?

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And this one?

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So when the manga says Bluenote was a man that once stood toe to toe with Gildarts, what it really meant was that he was someone who got Gildarts to oneshot him. When Gildarts and Bluenote collided hits, what it really mean was that Gildarts was never really using any magic. Except when he was, which was most of the hits. But Gildarts still didn't use a lot of his magic, because clearly it was a oneshot and they didn't go toe to toe.

Why stop at Bluenote? Why not say Gildarts is weaker as well?

Basically you're using straw men and red herrings. Cool.
Basically we have Bluenote clashing with Gildartz in the start where they were even tilt with punches thrown with some magic imbued to them. that's where Mashima stated they went toe to toe. and how that it result in?
A little bit of Gildartz's MP imbued can result in those collateral effects as we have seen from those panels. I mean this is the same Gildartz who walked in breaking brick walls and buildings due to his magical pressure.

A oneshot happened in the conclusion. A weakened Gildartz punched Bluenote to the sky. The very same Gildartz who was interrupted with Azuma's tree magic that made him drop his guard. Gildartz would've roflstomped Bluenote had Azuma not interfered, and there's a reason why Mashima made Azuma interrupt Gildartz because clearly he was showing Bluenote needed a help from an ally to not get oneshotted. Gildarts suddenly collapsesd as if by exhaustion along with the Fairy Tail Mages all over the island when the Tenrou Tree at the center of the island falls by Azuma's hand.

Nice irrelevant example you made there.

Well that' s speculative as we don't know Current Gildartz strength, whether he's become weaker or not as a result.
Look at where Gildartz stated if only I was younger, I would fair better. What does that tell you?

Can you answer my question or are you going to conveniently dodge it again?

 

[Mirage]

Laxus vs Base Natsu = Laxus mid diff

Laxus vs FDKM Natsu = Natsu high diff

Surely everyone can agree to this.

 

[Axel Stone]

Laxus vs Base Natsu = Laxus mid diff

Laxus vs FDKM Natsu = Natsu high diff

Surely everyone can agree to this.

What about DF Natsu and LFD Natsu?

 

[Axiomus]

Basically you're using straw men and red herrings. Cool.
Basically we have Bluenote clashing with Gildartz in the start where they were even tilt with punches thrown with some magic imbued to them.
that's where Mashima stated they went toe to toe. and how that it result in?
A oneshot. A weakened Gildartz punched Bluenote to the sky. The very same Gildartz who was interrupted with Azuma's tree magic that made him drop his guard.

Well that' s speculative as we don't know Current Gildartz strength, whether he's become weaker or not as a result.
Look at where Gildartz stated if only I was younger, I would fair better. What does that tell you?

Can you answer my question or are you going to conveniently dodge it again?

It's not really a strawman, because I'm not attacking a point you're not making. It's also not really a red herring, because I'm not trying to divert attention away from your point. Quite simply, Gildarts so very clearly did not oneshot Bluenote. Jura vs Orga was a oneshot. Acnologia vs Serena was a oneshot. Natsu vs Bluenote was a oneshot. Gildarts traded multiple blows with Bluenote, most of which we can clearly see using magic. Then, he used a named spell to knock out Bluenote after crushing Bluenote's best spell. Afterwards, we see Gildarts was so exhausted he couldn't even move. The manga goes on to recollect Bluenote as once being someone who went toe to toe with Gildarts. Nothing about this implies a oneshot.

There is no reason to assume Bluenote got weaker.

Does it make logical sense for anyone to accept Natsu went from being toyed around with Gildartz and several tiers below him in power to all of a sudden become stronger than him in one bloody fucking year?

Maybe it's because, that Natsu decided to dedicate 1 year to training? He trained to the point where his body could release Igneel's power. He trained so much that his magic overheated and he developed an anti-ethernano tumor. All his feats since the timeskip have been over the top. Wasn't the entire point of the timeskip so that Natsu could train and get way stronger? We even had Wendy commenting on this:

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So yeah, it not only makes perfect sense, but it's exactly what happened.

 

[Mirage]

What about DF Natsu and LFD Natsu?

Lose.

EDIT: Scratch that. We don't even know how strong current LFD or DF Natsu is. But if FDKM Natsu wins against Laxus high diff, then DF Natsu and below would most likely lose.

 

[SirSamuel016]

Laxus vs Base Natsu = Laxus mid diff

Laxus vs FDKM Natsu = Natsu high diff

Surely everyone can agree to this.

Flame Dragon King Mode would help Natsu beat Laxus of all people high diff? That mode trashed Zeref (arguarbly he wasn't serious but still), and Laxus would fair better against it? I highly doubt Laxus would be stronger than Zeref to be able to do well against it. FDKM would be absolute overkill imo, Natsu'd win easy diff at the worst because this is the same mode that came close to killing an immortal, and it is the power of one of the strongest Dragons.

 

[Mirage]

Flame Dragon King Mode would help Natsu beat Laxus of all people high diff? That mode trashed Zeref (arguarbly he wasn't serious but still), and Laxus would fair better against it? I highly doubt Laxus would be stronger than Zeref to be able to do well against it. FDKM would be absolute overkill imo, Natsu'd win easy diff at the worst because this is the same mode that came close to killing an immortal, and it is the power of one of the strongest Dragons.

Laxus would fare pretty well against calm Zeref. Not as well as FDKM Natsu but still pretty well. He can drop casual city level nukes.

There's the fact that Laxus is much faster than Natsu. It's not like Natsu has all stats over Laxus.

 

[Brandish μ]

FDKM Natsu could burn up Laxus lightning, then give him a beating. Low diff.

 

[Axiomus]

Laxus would fare pretty well against calm Zeref. Not as well as FDKM Natsu but still pretty well. He can drop casual city level nukes.

There's the fact that Laxus is much faster than Natsu. It's not like Natsu has all stats over Laxus.

Laxus' nuke was really only as large as one of Motherglare's roar, or Sema. Natsu was using Igneel's power. I don't see any of the Spriggans doing to Zeref what Natsu did, and I consider Laxus to be around Spriggan level.