Question Hisoka's resurrection discussion

[Hannibal Psyche]

Yes. You say it yourself: Gon is letting out aura. A huge amount of it. his whole body is enveloped by a very strong aura towering into the sky.
Does the picture of hisoka even look comparable to that to you? It doesnt.
Look here:

It's still irrelevant.

Your words lack any credibility.

Machi despite the size said it was stronger, and she's felt Hisoka's Nen before and can compare even if he wasn't releasing the entirety of his Nen.

I'd take the Manga over your statements, yours are distortions as far as the Manga goes.

 

[shionoro]

Now, btw, i am not saying that a nenuser cannot roughly tell the level on which someone else is by other means than just witnessing the ten.

As in the case of the ants, nenusers can often, but not always, tell when they are absolutely outmatched.

But to tell whether someone got stronger in a splitsecond, it is pretty unbelievable that such a task is possible just because that someone uses his hatsu in a way he uses it normally.
Hisoka did nothing but use bungee gum on his arm. Thus you could see him using nen, but that's it.
He didnt, like gone, release insane amounts of aura, or like pitou have a noticably forceful en. His aura didnt really even touch machi.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 24, 2016 ---

It's still irrelevant.

Your words lack any credibility.

Machi despite the size said it was stronger, and she's felt Hisoka's Nen before and can compare even if he wasn't releasing the entirety of his Nen.

I'd take the Manga over your statements, yours are distortions as far as the Manga goes.

Machi didnt say that.
Period. She didnt say what you think she said.

I have explained that in detail. Machi asked herself how there could be nen when hisoka was dead.
And her answer was 'oh, nen getting stronger'.

When you think someone is dead, does it make sense that machi meant 'oh, hisoka got stronger' with that thought?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

When you think someone is dead, does it make sense that machi meant 'oh, hisoka got stronger' with that thought?

I don't need any of your details and I'm simply not going to acknowledge anything you say as long as it's not saying what the Manga said.

I don't care how impossible you think it is, this is what the Manga has said.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 24, 2016 ---

He didnt, like gone, release insane amounts of aura, or like pitou have a noticably forceful en. His aura didnt really even touch machi.

An argument that'd cling on to anything.

His aura is radiating out of his body, it doesn't need to touch her.

Nen can be felt without contact, to say otherwise would be simply lying.

 

[shionoro]

I don't need any of your details and I'm simply not going to acknowledge anything you say as long as it's not saying what the Manga said.

I don't care how impossible you think it is, this is what the Manga has said.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 24, 2016 ---

An argument that'd cling on to anything.

His aura is radiating out of his body, it doesn't need to touch her.

Nen can be felt without contact, to say otherwise would be simply lying.

What you say it just not correct. I even found a clip disproving you directly from the anime:

Here we see gon's aura coming bakc form zetsu.
That is exactly the same thing that happened with hisoka. His aura came back from a zetsu state and enveloped his body in a gentle nature.

And at that point, Morel had absolutely no idea how strong gon was (in the same timeframe machi saw hisoka's aura or even more).
He then asked gon for a punch, and only when gon powered up for the punch for a rather long time, only then morel could see the extent of his power.

Would that make sense if he could judge gon just by seeing the usual aura envelopement any nenuser has?
No, it doesnt.

You can only judge stuff like that when someone actively powers up, uses ten or any of such things, like supergon did for example.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2016 ---

And before you ask: Yes, it looks the same in the manga.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2016 ---

So what we simply see here is that Morel cannot judge someone's power by just looking at their usually neutral aura state.

He can do that when he sees someone power up, or use en or ten, but not like that.

It is very farfetched to think machi can do that with hisoka. Because it is even harder to say whether someone got 'stronger' than to roughly estimate his power.
Leave alone for someone who is dead.

It would also imply that hisoka ever showed machi the complete extent of his power, which is very doubtful. Why would he? Hisoka is not the type to power up anyway. He does not use things which are very aura intense like jajanken.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

What you say it just not correct. I even found a clip disproving you directly from the anime:


Here we see gon's aura coming bakc form zetsu.
That is exactly the same thing that happened with hisoka. His aura came back from a zetsu state and enveloped his body in a gentle nature.

And at that point, Morel had absolutely no idea how strong gon was (in the same timeframe machi saw hisoka's aura or even more).
He then asked gon for a punch, and only when gon powered up for the punch for a rather long time, only then morel could see the extent of his power.

Would that make sense if he could judge gon just by seeing the usual aura envelopement any nenuser has?
No, it doesnt.

You can only judge stuff like that when someone actively powers up, uses ten or any of such things, like supergon did for example.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2016 ---

And before you ask: Yes, it looks the same in the manga.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2016 ---

So what we simply see here is that Morel cannot judge someone's power by just looking at their usually neutral aura state.

He can do that when he sees someone power up, or use en or ten, but not like that.

It is very farfetched to think machi can do that with hisoka. Because it is even harder to say whether someone got 'stronger' than to roughly estimate his power.
Leave alone for someone who is dead.

It would also imply that hisoka ever showed machi the complete extent of his power, which is very doubtful. Why would he? Hisoka is not the type to power up anyway. He does not use things which are very aura intense like jajanken.

Not buying it because it still is irrelevant.

When Pitou died, her Nen became more powerful and Terpsichora was present.

Hisoka died and Bungee Gum was present.

His aura was awakened too, so therefore, she could sense his Nen too, and it was stronger.

Like I said before, you choose what you want to believe, and discard others.

Manga has stated it's stronger, so you can convince yourself all you want, I simply won't be convinced by your false argument.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 24, 2016 ---

Leave alone for someone who is dead.

You mean someone who is alive. Your point is moot.

And nonetheless, you're still clinging on to falalcies.

Whether he's alive or not is irrelevant; Pitou's Nen was felt despite his death and Nen can be felt whether dead or alive.

 

[shionoro]

Not buying it because it still is irrelevant

I posted a clip that disproves what you said. That is no irrelevant.
YOu can either tell me why morel could not judge gon's power in this clip but machi, a less experienced teacher, supposedly can in the same sitution, or you can concede that in fact machi could not gauge hisoka's strength

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I posted a clip that disproves what you said. That is no irrelevant.
YOu can either tell me why morel could not judge gon's power in this clip but machi, a less experienced teacher, supposedly can in the same sitution, or you can concede that in fact machi could not gauge hisoka's strength

It is irrelevant.

You tried to make out like Nen couldn't be sensed just because a character is dead, that was clearly false, Terpishoura's Nen was felt and stated to have become stronger after death.

Bungee Gum was active after Hisoka's death, so clearly, just like Terpishoura, it was felt.

Also, the difference is Nen that animates itself outside the consciousness of the user has been gauged twice in a row in the series now:

1. Terpishoura
2. Bungee Gum

So you can't pretend like this is something new or foreign in the series.

Gon wasn't using the same application of Nen that Hisoka and Pitou emitted whilst dead, it was completely different. What Pitou and Hisoka emitted in their death was their respective abilities - completely different application of Aura which Gon wasn't using at the time against Morel.

Also, another fallacy from you. You're trying to make out like Morel is superior to Machi, with what evidence? None, mere assumption. Perhaps, because she's younger? age is irrelevant, people have different levels of talent.

Even Wikia makes the same observation, you're saying otherwise - there's not much credibility to your statements, you're making excuses and distorting Manga scenes to give them different meanings.

 

[shionoro]

It is irrelevant.

You tried to make out like Nen couldn't be sensed just because a character is dead, that was clearly false, Terpishoura's Nen was felt and stated to have become stronger after death.

Bungee Gum was active after Hisoka's death, so clearly, just like Terpishoura, it was felt.

Also, the difference is Nen that animates itself outside the consciousness of the user has been gauged twice in a row in the series now:

1. Terpishoura
2. Bungee Gum

So you can't pretend like this is something new or foreign in the series.

Gon wasn't using the same application of Nen that Hisoka and Pitou emitted whilst dead, it was completely different. What Pitou and Hisoka emitted in their death was their respective abilities - completely different application of Aura which Gon wasn't using at the time against Morel.

Also, another fallacy from you. You're trying to make out like Morel is superior to Machi, with what evidence? None, mere assumption. Perhaps, because she's younger? age is irrelevant, people have different levels of talent.

Even Wikia makes the same observation, you're saying otherwise - there's not much credibility to your statements, you're making excuses and distorting Manga scenes to give them different meanings.

NO that is not the point i was making. I was making the point that you cannot gauge an individuals raw nenpower just by a casted nenability.
Machi can certainly gauge how much nen is involved in the bungee gum she sees, but that has nothing to do with hisoka's raw nenpower.
Hisoka at that point was dead, and the aura emitted from his body was not enough to judge here even if he was alive.

As i said, you can see that in morel's and gon's case. Morel couldnt judge gon's complete power just by looking at his normal aura, why would machi be able to do that?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Machi can certainly gauge how much nen is involved in the bungee gum she sees, but that has nothing to do with hisoka's raw nenpower.
Hisoka at that point was dead, and the aura emitted from his body was not enough to judge here even if he was alive.

That's not for you to decide, that's for Togashi to do so, and he wrote that his Nen got stronger, so your point is irrelevant.

If judging the strength of Nen that's just been revived is impossible, then there should have been no way to determine that Pitou's Nen had become stronger; Hisoka and Pitou's situations are identical, so you're just being fallacious.

 

[shionoro]

That's not for you to decide, that's for Togashi to do so, and he wrote that his Nen got stronger, so your point is irrelevant.

He didnt. Togashi wrote that Morel could not gauge the raw nenpower by someone just by looking at normal enveloping aura.
That is the exact same situation machi had with hisoka, completely to the letter. Nen just kicks back from zetsu and envelopes the body without overflowing.
And you want to tell me that Machi is better at that than morel, who actually has students which he teaches?

Machi always referred to hisoka's casted nenability, not to hisoka himself (which she still thought was dead).
You are free to think that this might be an indication for hisoka to get stronger on a whole, but at least admit please that machi did not know hisoka was even still alive at that point and thus cannot have referred to his general power, but if anything then to the casted bungee gum treads.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

He didnt. Togashi wrote that Morel could not gauge the raw nenpower by someone just by looking at normal enveloping aura.
That is the exact same situation machi had with hisoka, completely to the letter. Nen just kicks back from zetsu and envelopes the body without overflowing.
And you want to tell me that Machi is better at that than morel, who actually has students which he teaches?

Machi always referred to hisoka's casted nenability, not to hisoka himself (which she still thought was dead).
You are free to think that this might be an indication for hisoka to get stronger on a whole, but at least admit please that machi did not know hisoka was even still alive at that point and thus cannot have referred to his general power, but if anything then to the casted bungee gum treads.

Nope, you're simply being fallacious, Hisoka didn't even know he was dead himself and asked Machi who said he was definitely dead.

Machi saw his Nen while he was dead,and she felt it. The Nen of the dead can be felt as we saw in Terpishoura's case which you're in denial of.

She again acknowledged that he was dead, and he clearly stated that he himself didn't realise that he was dead; he was confirmed to be dead. His Aura reappeared, and just like Terpishoura's Nen was recognised to be stronger, so was Hisoka's.

So, you are indeed making fallacious statements.

Also, having students has no relevance as to whether someone is a superior to a Nen user that doesn't teach. That is utter nonsense.

 

[shionoro]

Machi saw his Nen while he was dead,and she felt it. The Nen of the dead can be felt as we saw in Terpishoura's case which you're in denial of.

The nen of a casted ability is not the same as the general nencapacity of a person.
YOu are basically saying that, if i saw a sun and moon sign the elder of meteor city casted at some point, i could accurately gauge his raw nenpower.
But that is wrong. You can't.
You can only tell that there is nen involved in that sign, and possibly how much nen, but you do not know whether the person who casted it has incredible amounts of aura or whether that was the best he or she could do.

And here, machi only saw bungee gum while hisoka was dead. And unless you think that this bungee gum tread used up more aura than Hisoka could ever muster up before he died, then she cannot gauge whether hisoka got stronger or not.

She again acknowledged that he was dead, and he clearly stated that he himself didn't realise that he was dead; he was confirmed to be dead. His Aura reappeared, and just like Terpishoura's Nen was recognised to be stronger, so was Hisoka's.

So, you are indeed making fallacious statements.

Also, having students has no relevance as to whether someone is a superior to a Nen user that doesn't teach. That is utter nonsense.

Noone debates that hisoka was dead (well, except you at some point, but you seem to have changed your mind).
So....you think that machi is a superior nenuser to morel now? Really?
And of course having students changes whether you can gauge someone's level. If you have to gauge someone by his aura and charisma often you get better at that.

 

[mousiehamster]

It's stronger in the sense that it's acquired permanence. Usually, conjured or transmuted stuff dissipates when the nen user is no longer able to sustain said stuff. Being dead would be a good example of that. However, in certain circumstances, a user can imbue his nen with such powerful will that it persists after death. Additionally, all bungee gum was doing was stretching and contracting to kick-start Hisoka's heart. That doesn't sound like something that would require "stronger" nen. It's stronger in the sense that it's activating without any input from Hisoka and that's all there is to it. And, even if it did become stronger, so what?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

So....you think that machi is a superior nenuser to morel now? Really?

Nope, that's nonsense. It's not a fact, it's not stated in the Manga, it's mere opinion that you state as fact without verifying the truth.

Talent and ability of a Nen user is not dependent on if one is a teacher or not.

Hisoka is a skilled hunter, and he's not a teacher; your point is moot.

Noone debates that hisoka was dead (well, except you at some point, but you seem to have changed your mind).

Nope,again, you're being fallacious.

I've always stated he was dead; if you were remotely following what was said earlier on in this thread, you;d know I was calling out Hisoka's ressurection to be a cop-out by Togashi.

I used the word "resurrect", pretty sure you know the implications of using that word.

As far as I'm concerned, Hisoka's resurrection was fan pleasing at its worst. He was certainly dead in my opinion because we're told his Nen became stronger. I don't think one can pretend to die and trick their own Nen into be stronger. I'm appalled by the way this played out.

As stated by myself on the 2nd page of this thread; you ought to verify your statements, but that's clearly not something you do, you just assume and that's what you've even done despite what the Manga has officially stated.

The nen of a casted ability is not the same as the general nencapacity of a person.
YOu are basically saying that, if i saw a sun and moon sign the elder of meteor city casted at some point, i could accurately gauge his raw nenpower.
But that is wrong. You can't.

I don't care what you think, to be frank.

The Manga is the source of information, and according to it, you're lying.

Pitou's Nen was stated to have become stronger once her Aura was emitted like was the case for Hisoka, so your statement is pretty much baseless.

And here, machi only saw bungee gum while hisoka was dead. And unless you think that this bungee gum tread used up more aura than Hisoka could ever muster up before he died, then she cannot gauge whether hisoka got stronger or not.

Irrelevant. The same way Pitou's Nen was gauged to be stronger after death is the same way Hisoka's has been gauged.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 24, 2016 ---

It's stronger in the sense that it's activating without any input from Hisoka and that's all there is to it.

When you have the phrase "in some cases" in any sentence, you're dealing with probabilities; Phinks also stated it becomes even stronger which means in some cases, Nen thta stays behind gets stronger.

If what you said were remotely true, all Phinks needed to say was "Nen doesn't necessarily disappear after death" and end it at that, but he developed on it and said it does have the chance to grow stronger.

Unless Phinks is now a liar and nothing from the Manga can be accepted as true, then what is believable?

 

[shionoro]

Nope, that's nonsense. It's not a fact, it's not stated in the Manga, it's mere opinion that you state as fact without verifying the truth.

Talent and ability of a Nen user is not dependent on if one is a teacher or not.

Hisoka is a skilled hunter, and he's not a teacher; your point is moot.

It is a consequence. I showed you that morel couldnt evaluate the nenpower of a person accurately with just that.
So in order to think that machi can, you would have to think machi is better at that than morel. Significantly better than him, i might add.
And Machi is not indicated to be a more capable nenuser than morel, while morel has at least some experience in evaluating people.

As stated by myself on the 2nd page of this thread; you ought to verify your statements, but that's clearly not something you do, you just assume and that's what you've even done despite what the Manga has officially stated.

No. The manga never officially stated what you said and you didn't verify what you say. You say Hisoka got stronger. This is said nowhere in the manga. At no place. It is also not indicated by anything someone has said.
I have given evidence for the things i said. i have given evidence about highclass nenusers like morel not being able to gauge the raw nenpower at someone just by seeing their normal enveloping aura.
You would have to give me a good reason why machi should be able to do what morel can't.

I have also raised the question how machi could even have the thought that hisoka got stronger when she believed him to be dead in that situation.

Irrelevant. The same way Pitou's Nen was gauged to be stronger after death is the same way Hisoka's has been gauged.

Once again: Pitou's nen, not Pitou. Which are two very different things between a casted nen ability and the general nencapacity of a person.

If what you said were remotely true, all Phinks needed to say was "Nen doesn't necessarily disappear after death" and end it at that, but he developed on it and said it does have the chance to grow stronger.

Unless Phinks is now a liar and nothing from the Manga can be accepted as true, then what is believable?

You still do not get that i am not debating the fact that nen can get stronger after death.
I am simply telling you that this is not the same as the nenuser to get stronger when he is reanimated.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It is a consequence. I showed you that morel couldnt evaluate the nenpower of a person accurately with just that.

Nope, you're just using fallacy.

The Manga said otherwise.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 24, 2016 ---

Once again: Pitou's nen, not Pitou. Which are two very different things between a casted nen ability and the general nencapacity of a person.

Irrelevant and false.

Still their Nen and their power.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2016 ---

...and Hisoka referred to his Nen as "My Rubber Nen",

Like I said before, Manga over your words.

 

[shionoro]

Nope, you're just using fallacy.

The Manga said otherwise.

No. What happened in the manga is not a fallacy. It happened in the manga that morel could not evaluate gon's aura in the same situation machi was in.
Or do you even debate that?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

No. What happened in the manga is not a fallacy. It happened in the manga that morel could not evaluate gon's aura in the same situation machi was in.
Or do you even debate that?

Nope false.

Gon's Nen wasn't acting independently like Hisoka and Pitou's Nen.

So, you are being fallacious.

Both Hisoka and Pitou's Nen reactivated themselves, and they weren't just releasing Aura, but making use of their abilities and both were discerned to have gotten stronger.

So, to make Gon's situation and Pitou & Hisoka's being similar is a distortion.

And you're still being fallacious, the Manga explicitly shows Machi discerned this.

And you;re under the delusion that Machi is weaker than Morel despite no evidence.

Your statements can simply be rejected, and more so in light with what Manga states.

 

[shionoro]

Nope false.

Gon's Nen wasn't acting independently like Hisoka and Pitou's Nen.

So, you are being fallacious.

Even worse then, if his nen acts independendly she has absolutely no way of knowing whether this can be traced back in any way to hisoka himself.

And you;re under the delusion that Machi is weaker than Morel despite no evidence.

No. You say machi is better than morel at this without any evidence, because there is no other way of her being able to judge hisoka in that situation.
You imply a lot of things you can never back up.

Once again: I have asked you how it is possible for machi to judge a dead man and how she would utter the thought 'hisoka got stronger' when she still thought he was dead.
You never answered that question.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Even worse then, if his nen acts independendly she has absolutely no way of knowing whether this can be traced back in any way to hisoka himself.

But you're still wrong.

Pitou's Nen acted independently and it was stated to have become stronger just like Hisoka;s Nen.

Acting independently doesn't stop Nen from being gauged, so you're making baseless claims.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 25, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 25, 2016 ---

Once again: I have asked you how it is possible for machi to judge a dead man and how she would utter the thought 'hisoka got stronger' when she still thought he was dead.
You never answered that question.

It is an ignorant question.

It's like you've not read the fight between Gon and Pitou.

Pitou was dead, his Nen acted independently, yet was still gauged to have become stronger.

Your question becomes more absurd because you're trying to relate it like it's a real-life scenario. There's no such thing as Nen in reality nor is there dead men with their hands dug into their chest miraculously coming back to life (and let's not go to the actual massaging of one's own heart).