Don't worry. I don't read Crunchyroll's Translations either. It just happened that this was discussed earlier. Even so, from the regular translation, it seems to me that Neinhart's MP indeed has an effect on his Historias.
END negated Age Seal BECAUSE of his power, those two reasons you suggested are pretty much synonymous. As for Brandish, they literally said that her magic power was what was scaring them. In Invel's case it's nothing but speculation.
I admit its speculation but it's not far-fetched. We'll never know what Invel felt there because there was no dialogue. But to say with 100% certainty that he was only shocked to say Gray alive (regardless of sensing his power), that isn't proven either.
A long fight doesn't mean that the two combatants are equal. Laxus was a fair bit above Natsu and Gajeel back in FF but their fight still lasted quite a while.
I agree they aren't exactly equal. That is why I said that if people want to believe that the Historias are a little stronger than Sting and Minerva, then I'm okay with that. The point is that they aren't that strong. After all, Minerva and Rogue were able to take some hits from Historia Wahl + Historia Bloodman.
Gildarts oneshotted him with his strongest move, similar to how Natsu oneshotted Jacob with his. And I sincerely doubt you'd put Natsu as far above Jacob as you put Gildarts over Historia Serena.
We don't know if that is Gildarts strongest move so I can't comment on that one. As for Natsu, I actually do put him as far above Jacob as I put Gildarts over Historia Serena, if we're talking about E.N.D. Like I said, Gray and Natsu are by far the strongest characters on Ishgar's side right now. When I say Gray and Natsu, I am taking their full power into account. In other words, DeS Gray and E.N.D. At least that is what the manga has portrayed...
Never before have we seen a characters arm crack or burn like what happened to Erza's hand. Those are some significant feats right there. How Erza survived is beyond me and something that is reserved for another topic. I have come to disregard that feat whether anybody here likes it or not.
I disagree with Gray and END-Natsu being the strongest characters on Ishgar's side so far. Laxus smashed Wall, and Gajeel ripped Bloodman apart, both resulting in their deaths. I consider that more impressive than hurting Erza's hands. Especially since Erza is currently fighting Irene, and her injuries don't see to be hindering her by much. Both Laxus and Gajeel are right up there with Natsu and Gray imo.
Also Igneel-powered Natsu was far stronger than END Natsu, though this is a temporary power-up (I'm not sure if you're counting everything in the arc, or just right now).
I admit its speculation but it's not far-fetched. We'll never know what Invel felt there because there was no dialogue. But to say with 100% certainty that he was only shocked to say Gray alive (regardless of sensing his power), that isn't proven either.
Well to me it just seems unlikely that Invel would only just now become afraid of Gray's power, since he was in base then and he had gone DeS earlier. Invel only being interested in DeS Gray but being scared of Base Gray doesn't really make sense.
I agree they aren't exactly equal. That is why I said that if people want to believe that the Historias are a little stronger than Sting and Minerva, then I'm okay with that. The point is that they aren't that strong. After all, Minerva and Rogue were able to take some hits from Historia Wahl + Historia Bloodman.
Minerva and Rogue were able to take some hits but so were Natsu and Gajeel against Laxus. And imo Laxus was quite a bit stronger than Natsu and Gajeel combined, not just a little.
We don't know if that is Gildarts strongest move so I can't comment on that one. As for Natsu, I actually do put him as far above Jacob as I put Gildarts over Historia Serena, if we're talking about E.N.D. Like I said, Gray and Natsu are by far the strongest characters on Ishgar's side right now. When I say Gray and Natsu, I am taking their full power into account. In other words, DeS Gray and E.N.D. At least that is what the manga has portrayed...
It's the strongest move Gildarts has shown so far, and until he shows a stronger one I'm going to assume it's his strongest. And regarding Natsu, I'm actually of the opinion that FDKM Natsu > Partial END. Unless you're talking about Complete END, in which case I would put him wayyyy above Gray. Like, maybe August level.
Never before have we seen a characters arm crack or burn like what happened to Erza's hand. Those are some significant feats right there. How Erza survived is beyond me and something that is reserved for another topic. I have come to disregard that feat whether anybody here likes it or not.
Now this point here I couldn't agree with more. Yes Erza took some pretty severe damage to her hands but being able to block two attacks from two of the strongest characters in the manga with her bare hands was absolutely ridiculous. I've actually been paying close attention to her these past couple of chapters to make sure those injuries are still there because at the very least that damage had better be permanent.
I disagree with Gray and END-Natsu being the strongest characters on Ishgar's side so far. Laxus smashed Wall, and Gajeel ripped Bloodman apart, both resulting in their deaths. I consider that more impressive than hurting Erza's hands. Especially since Erza is currently fighting Irene, and her injuries don't see to be hindering her by much. Both Laxus and Gajeel are right up there with Natsu and Gray imo.
Also Igneel-powered Natsu was far stronger than END Natsu, though this is a temporary power-up (I'm not sure if you're counting everything in the arc, or just right now).
Fair enough. But that is my assessment of the power ranking right now.
The main difference between you and me is that I rate E.N.D higher than FDKM Natsu (who is more or less similar to Gajeel/Laxus). And this stems from the fact that not all the Spriggans are on the same level. Knowing your positions on these matters, we see things completely different so I can tell we're not going to agree.
Anyways, I don't think Laxus and Gajeel are on the same level as Natsu and Gray. First of all, they all destroyed a Spriggan quite easily. But note that Laxus was at full power and Gajeel was using DF (or whatever mode it was). Meanwhile, Natsu was using FDKM while Gray was in Base Form. It only makes sense that a power-up for each of them, E.N.D and DeS respectively, would be stronger. You also have to take into account the amount of advantages that each character had in their fight.
As for Igneel-powered Natsu, he is not only stronger than anybody on Ishgar's side but even on Alvarez's side (except Zeref). For the sake of discussion, I'm strictly talking about the power-ups available to him right now. In this case, it's E.N.D which I believe is on par with DeS Gray (through portrayal and some feats).
Well to me it just seems unlikely that Invel would only just now become afraid of Gray's power, since he was in base then and he had gone DeS earlier. Invel only being interested in DeS Gray but being scared of Base Gray doesn't really make sense.
Okay. I see your point. We'll just disagree though because I see it just a little differently. When Invel saw Gray in DeS, he wasn't at full power. But when Invel saw Gray in Base form, he was so that could be a possible factor.
Minerva and Rogue were able to take some hits but so were Natsu and Gajeel against Laxus. And imo Laxus was quite a bit stronger than Natsu and Gajeel combined, not just a little.
I don't know about this one. I tend to think that Gajeel and Natsu (collectively) gave Laxus an Extreme Difficulty fight. I don't see Laxus being that much more powerful than them at all. So if you disagree, then we should leave it as that. I thought about it a lot in the past and I probably won't change my stance on this but I'm open to different opinions and further discussion.
It's the strongest move Gildarts has shown so far, and until he shows a stronger one I'm going to assume it's his strongest. And regarding Natsu, I'm actually of the opinion that FDKM Natsu > Partial END. Unless you're talking about Complete END, in which case I would put him wayyyy above Gray. Like, maybe August level.
Haha. And you're not the only one. I have my reasons for why I put E.N.D higher than FDKM Natsu. Even if it's partial although I don't quite agree with that term. I think E.N.D is E.N.D. There is no partial. The only thing is that Natsu wasn't going all out as E.N.D which is why his transformation wasn't complete. I may be the only one in this forum to think this, but I believe Partial E.N.D can give August quite a fight.
Now this point here I couldn't agree with more. Yes Erza took some pretty severe damage to her hands but being able to block two attacks from two of the strongest characters in the manga with her bare hands was absolutely ridiculous. I've actually been paying close attention to her these past couple of chapters to make sure those injuries are still there because at the very least that damage had better be permanent.
If the Historias couldn't even take down their opponents then they don't have much of a chance against Gray. Tbh they'd probably get one shot. Serena would be annoying but Gray can dish out more than the power of a Gildarts headbutt.
Just on the topic of Invel sensing Gray, I think it's the MP Gray is radiating. Those streams coming off him were similar to Jellal's, when he got angry. Also that panel where Invel shivers, Hiro sometimes draws that when someone is sensing incredible power. The fact that it's a Spriggan doing the sensing, Gray's MP would have spiked a fair bit there imo.
Gajeel should have also been dead if it weren't for Irene helping him out. So Gajeel technically didn't really "win" his fight like Laxus and Gray did.
He's close to Laxus, Natsu, and Gray, but not quite there yet.
I consider that more impressive than hurting Erza's hands. Especially since Erza is currently fighting Irene, and her injuries don't see to be hindering her by much.
The punch that DeS Gray and Partial END threw at each other was nowhere near their full power. If they had done a full-powered attack, Erza would be currently where Makarov is right now.
That was a ridiculous scene. If the "cracks" on her hands were meant to be taken seriously, then her hands should be falling off while fighting Irene.
Fair enough. But that is my assessment of the power ranking right now.
The main difference between you and me is that I rate E.N.D higher than FDKM Natsu (who is more or less similar to Gajeel/Laxus). And this stems from the fact that not all the Spriggans are on the same level. Knowing your positions on these matters, we see things completely different so I can tell we're not going to agree.
Anyways, I don't think Laxus and Gajeel are on the same level as Natsu and Gray. First of all, they all destroyed a Spriggan quite easily. But note that Laxus was at full power and Gajeel was using DF (or whatever mode it was). Meanwhile, Natsu was using FDKM while Gray was in Base Form. It only makes sense that a power-up for each of them, E.N.D and DeS respectively, would be stronger. You also have to take into account the amount of advantages that each character had in their fight.
As for Igneel-powered Natsu, he is not only stronger than anybody on Ishgar's side but even on Alvarez's side (except Zeref). For the sake of discussion, I'm strictly talking about the power-ups available to him right now. In this case, it's E.N.D which I believe is on par with DeS Gray (through portrayal and some feats).
I'm willing to say that END mode is stronger than FDK overall (in that END has more curse power than Natsu has magical power), but I think the FDK attacks we've seen so far are stronger than the END mode attacks we've seen.
Wall is a bad match for Laxus though. I think Laxus would have one or two hit Wall had he not had the immunity to lightning, provided that Wall had a similar durability to someone like Ajeel whom probably would have been heavily in by that nuke. For me, the most impressive thing for END mode was his ability to walk through Age Seal and what Brandish said about her magic being unable to effect it anymore. I find this hype to be somewhat similar to Irene enhancing Neinhart to a point where Brandish's magic wouldn't work on him. In terms of the actual fighting, we saw Natsu beat up Dimaria (and I'm assuming he dominated) but we already know Natsu can take down a Spriggan with 1 or 2 hits, so there's nothing extraordinary in terms of his performance there.
I agree that END Natsu and Gray are on the same level, and generally above the average Spriggan. There's other characters I would consider on that level as well, like Laxus or Gajeel. Or even WSD Sting now that he's defeated Larcade.
Gajeel should have also been dead if it weren't for Irene helping him out. So Gajeel technically didn't really "win" his fight like Laxus and Gray did.
He's close to Laxus, Natsu, and Gray, but not quite there yet.
The punch that DeS Gray and Partial END threw at each other was nowhere near their full power. If they had done a full-powered attack, Erza would be currently where Makarov is right now.
That was a ridiculous scene. If the "cracks" on her hands were meant to be taken seriously, then her hands should be falling off while fighting Irene.
Gajeel's attacks still ended up killing Bloodman, which puts his fighting prowess at the level where he can kill the average Spriggan. Bloodman just happened to have the ability to drag someone with him to the underworld.
Why wouldn't they have been going all out? They were emotionally invested, and later both of them were exhausted afterwards. Just because Erza stopped them doesn't mean they weren't going all out. It might just mean Erza is just that tough.
Okay. I see your point. We'll just disagree though because I see it just a little differently. When Invel saw Gray in DeS, he wasn't at full power. But when Invel saw Gray in Base form, he was so that could be a possible factor.
But the thing is, if Gray only decided to go all out after Juvia's death, why wouldn't he go DeS? This is the reason why I don't really consider the Gray that stomped Invel as Base Gray, but rather Gray with a darkness powerup. Otherwise I really have no idea why Gray would decide to stay in base to avenge Juvia.
I don't know about this one. I tend to think that Gajeel and Natsu (collectively) gave Laxus an Extreme Difficulty fight. I don't see Laxus being that much more powerful than them at all. So if you disagree, then we should leave it as that. I thought about it a lot in the past and I probably won't change my stance on this but I'm open to different opinions and further discussion.
Haha. And you're not the only one. I have my reasons for why I put E.N.D higher than FDKM Natsu. Even if it's partial although I don't quite agree with that term. I think E.N.D is E.N.D. There is no partial. The only thing is that Natsu wasn't going all out as E.N.D which is why his transformation wasn't complete. I may be the only one in this forum to think this, but I believe Partial E.N.D can give August quite a fight.
Well the thing is, I don't think the END that fought Gray could fully transform at all. I don't see how only a small hole in the Book of END would be able to trigger a complete transformation.
Gajeel's attacks still ended up killing Bloodman, which puts his fighting prowess at the level where he can kill the average Spriggan. Bloodman just happened to have the ability to drag someone with him to the underworld.
Sure, Gajeel can kill an average Spriggan. Still doesn't put him on Laxus' and Gray's level.
Gajeel may have the power above an average Spriggan, but that doesn't mean his overall combat ability is on par with Laxus and Gray.
While Laxus and Gray secured a victory against their opponent, Gajeel failed in that task. Maybe it's because of his lack of awareness, but I would like to point something out:
Gajeel was lucky in the fact that his opponent uses MBPs. Without Bloodman's MBPs, Gajeel would not have been able to turn DF.
Which means, if Gajeel were to face Wahl or Invel, he just might've lost.
Why wouldn't they have been going all out? They were emotionally invested, and later both of them were exhausted afterwards. Just because Erza stopped them doesn't mean they weren't going all out. It might just mean Erza is just that tough.
They were going all out right before Erza came, but after they "felt" Makarov's Fairy Law, they somewhat lost motivation.
It would make a lot more sense considering Erza's hands aren't cracking anymore. One doesn't just make cracks on their body disappear.
It was a poorly written scene and should be judged in a poor way. It didn't make a shred of sense other than to make a point.
I'll agree that Gray and END went all out there if Erza's hands fall off in the upcoming chapters. Otherwise, I'll interpret it as neither Gray nor END going full power, cuz that would explain why the cracks just all of a sudden disappeared.
On a second thought i think Gray may pull up a victory.I am just stuck in Bloodman's case.That person has Des Magic.If it had been 2 Historias and one full powered Spriggan i would still have given the battle to Gray.
@Brandish Bloodman did say he uses all 9 Curses of Tartaros.He also used the same Des Roar against Gajeel that Silver had used against Gray.If Gray uses any Des Spell then there is a possibility that Bloodman may eat it.
I disagree with Gray and END-Natsu being the strongest characters on Ishgar's side so far. Laxus smashed Wall, and Gajeel ripped Bloodman apart, both resulting in their deaths. I consider that more impressive than hurting Erza's hands. Especially since Erza is currently fighting Irene, and her injuries don't see to be hindering her by much. Both Laxus and Gajeel are right up there with Natsu and Gray imo.
Also Igneel-powered Natsu was far stronger than END Natsu, though this is a temporary power-up (I'm not sure if you're counting everything in the arc, or just right now).
I'll give you this, Igneel is immensely stronger than a regular dragon so it would take way more than 3 S12. A regular GMG dragon would take 3-4 S12 mages tops though, gotta meet me somewhere in the middle lol.
Sure, Gajeel can kill an average Spriggan. Still doesn't put him on Laxus' and Gray's level.
Gajeel may have the power above an average Spriggan, but that doesn't mean his overall combat ability is on par with Laxus and Gray.
While Laxus and Gray secured a victory against their opponent, Gajeel failed in that task. Maybe it's because of his lack of awareness, but I would like to point something out:
Gajeel was lucky in the fact that his opponent uses MBPs. Without Bloodman's MBPs, Gajeel would not have been able to turn DF.
Which means, if Gajeel were to face Wahl or Invel, he just might've lost.
They were going all out right before Erza came, but after they "felt" Makarov's Fairy Law, they somewhat lost motivation.
It would make a lot more sense considering Erza's hands aren't cracking anymore. One doesn't just make cracks on their body disappear.
It was a poorly written scene and should be judged in a poor way. It didn't make a shred of sense other than to make a point.
I'll agree that Gray and END went all out there if Erza's hands fall off in the upcoming chapters. Otherwise, I'll interpret it as neither Gray nor END going full power, cuz that would explain why the cracks just all of a sudden disappeared.
Gajeel's combat ability isn't what caused him to lose against Bloodman. It's not like Bloodman outfought Gajeel once he started using his new form. Gajeel just kind of beat him down when it came to the actual fighting, but got dragged with him to the underworld when he thought the fight was over. Gajeel might not have been able to use his kurogane form if not for Bloodman, but he never would have had a problem landing hits against the other Spriggans who don't have MBPs making up most of their body. Assuming that Gajeel can now freely enter this form, I would still put him on the same level as Natsu, Laxus, Gray - or anyone who managed to take down a Spriggan member.
I didn't see any indication that Natsu or Gray lost motivation after Makarov cast Fairy Law. If anything, most of their fight was off-screen and the longest portion of the fight we got to see was after Makarov cast Fairy Law. I don't see that as bad writing either, especially with all the emphasis on how important Irene is. I think it's entirely possible that Erza is just that tough.
Sure, Gajeel can kill an average Spriggan. Still doesn't put him on Laxus' and Gray's level.
Gajeel may have the power above an average Spriggan, but that doesn't mean his overall combat ability is on par with Laxus and Gray.
While Laxus and Gray secured a victory against their opponent, Gajeel failed in that task. Maybe it's because of his lack of awareness, but I would like to point something out:
Gajeel was lucky in the fact that his opponent uses MBPs. Without Bloodman's MBPs, Gajeel would not have been able to turn DF.
Which means, if Gajeel were to face Wahl or Invel, he just might've lost.
They were going all out right before Erza came, but after they "felt" Makarov's Fairy Law, they somewhat lost motivation.
It would make a lot more sense considering Erza's hands aren't cracking anymore. One doesn't just make cracks on their body disappear.
It was a poorly written scene and should be judged in a poor way. It didn't make a shred of sense other than to make a point.
I'll agree that Gray and END went all out there if Erza's hands fall off in the upcoming chapters. Otherwise, I'll interpret it as neither Gray nor END going full power, cuz that would explain why the cracks just all of a sudden disappeared.
Gajeel was at disadvantage against bloodman who had no physical body, so he's not that lucky his opponent used MBP.... +It's Gajeel, he can eat a lot of stuff, shadows got no Iron so he would have pulled another mode Even if he didn't face Bloodman I think.
+Gray was more at advantage against Invel,he has more resistance to ice than anybody and he had to have Juvia "die" to actually win
Sure Gray is powerful but I dont rank him Laxus level yet, he is more in between Laxus and DF Gajeel imo (only his rage mode but I dont know if it will be permanent now that juvia is alive and he calmed down, maybe he will revert to his level when he started Fighting Invel and in that case I rate DF Gajeel > Gray )
Gajeel's combat ability isn't what caused him to lose against Bloodman. It's not like Bloodman outfought Gajeel. He simply dragged Gajeel with him to the underworld as a last resort. Gajeel might not have been able to use his kurogane form if not for Bloodman, but then again he never would have had a problem landing hits against the other Spriggans who don't have MBPs making up most of their body. Assuming that Gajeel can now freely enter this form, I would still put him on the same level as Natsu, Laxus, Gray - or anyone who managed to take down a Spriggan member.
Gajeel was at disadvantage against bloodman who had no physical body, so he's not that lucky his opponent used MBP.... +It's Gajeel, he can eat a lot of stuff, shadows got no Iron so he would have pulled another mode Even if he didn't face Bloodman I think.
Well, I can see Gajeel having a difficult time to hit Bloodman without going DF. But it's just the same for Bloodman if Gajeel went Iron Shadow Dragon Mode.
That would put them on even terms because they are both intangible combatants. The fact that Gajeel had difficulty withstanding hits from Bloodman in base form, kind of creates room for assumption that he may not have been able to secure a victory if he were to face Wahl or Invel.
And it's not like Bloodman has high offensive firepower like Wahl. Bloodman's attack is average, since he relies on his hax magic.
Like I said, it may have been Gajeel's lack of awareness when getting sucked into the portal, but the bottom line is that he would have stalemated that fight whereas Laxus and Gray achieved a definite victory.
Gajeel is definitely near Natsu, Laxus, and Gray's level, but because he was caught in Bloodman's trap and would have died, I don't see him being their equal.
But this is a minor issue. I don't agree with Gajeel being their equal yet, but if you do think so, then it's not that big of a dispute.
I didn't see any indication that Natsu or Gray lost motivation after Makarov cast Fairy Law. If anything, most of their fight was off-screen and the longest portion of the fight we got to see was after Makarov cast Fairy Law. I don't see that as bad writing either, especially with all the emphasis on how important Irene is. I think it's entirely possible that Erza is just that tough.
When I said they "lost motivation", I was referring to this panel:
You can interpret it the way you like, but I think it was pretty obvious that Mashima was trying to make a point about Makarov's decision affecting both Gray and Natsu (END form) in this panel.
Even if it is for a brief second, you can see that they were stunned from fighting and both showed a calmer attitude/expression.
If anything, this had a greater effect on them and was what caused for the whole misunderstanding situation to dissolve.
Erza blocking both their punches was just to make a point and create closure, but if Gray and END had gone full power, I guarantee you that Erza would join Makarov in wherever he is at.
The cracks disappearing on Erza's arm just shows that the injury was supposed to be more figurative than literal.
I don't doubt that Erza has a reputation for being durable, but against two people who defeated their respective Spriggan opponents in base form??
I highly doubt that considering Erza barely won her fight with Ajeel.
+Gray was more at advantage against Invel,he has more resistance to ice than anybody and he had to have Juvia "die" to actually win
Sure Gray is powerful but I dont rank him Laxus level yet, he is more in between Laxus and DF Gajeel imo (only his rage mode but I dont know if it will be permanent now that juvia is alive and he calmed down, maybe he will revert to his level when he started Fighting Invel and in that case I rate DF Gajeel > Gray )
I kind of discussed this in my previous posts, but Gray had already caused significant damage to Invel in base form before the whole "resistance to ice" thing.
Sure, the resistance to Invel's ice helped, but what else do you expect considering Invel's Divine Ice is practically hax? (freezes anything and everything instantly)
I think, even with help from resistance to ice, Gray practically had Invel beat. It was only a matter of time.
Bradman has no advantage against Gray, and has shown to not eat ice.
Infact Gray pretty much stomps Bradman due to him being etherious.
I rank Gray above DF Gajeel.
Gray should solo this match mid diff. At this point Gray's raw force is being underestimated. He literally destroyed a spriggan with his bare hands in base, and his hands and collision were enough to be equal to someone who's known to have raw force and destructive in Natsu who was boosted with END's powers.
God serena is still strong even if hes a historia and he can still use all 8 lacrima and gray has no elemental advantange this time which is the only reason he beat invel
Gray has chances to match Laxus depending on his trump card, Gray can give Laxus a mid diff or push it mid-high fight in darkness DeS form, so your point is invalid, so the only wanking here is you with your Laxus wank.
LOL what? You can't say Partial END is way above a character who stalemated him and even got a hit in and then proceeed to say they were even because of slaying advantage. What a biased way of approaching things. CQC wise and magic employment they were shown to be even which is hardly anything to do with slaying advantage. Try reading the fights.
