Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2017] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[G_I_A]

You guys are failing to understand completely Japan's culture about the relations between men and women in manga. There's different demographys exactly because of that. The main focus of JUMP are boys, it doesn't particularly matter their age depending of the series, but ARE boys. There's also a reason why lots of them happens in schools. Because the readers need to feel represented in them (since the majority of jump reader are school kids). People likes to read and interact with things that they can see themselves in. That's why the vaaaaast majority of protagonists are BOYS. That's also why series that have girls as protagonists, even ecchi ones, generally fail.

That's exactly why series like Kuroko no Basket, that have a large fanbase of girls (fujoshis specifically) are special. Because it has a characteristic that makes it appealing for other demography(s).

And nooooo, if Emma was a BOY it would be COMPLETELY different. Emma has a totally feminine personality. She cares about the other kids WAY more than the other 2 "protagonists" (I agree that Emma is the main one here). She was the ONLY one willing to save everybody, this is clearly a maternal love. And guess what? There's NOTHING wrong with that. But don't start a conversation saying that "if she was a he nothing would change". It would most certainly change.

Spoiler

Because Norman acted solely on his love for her and all plan was only possible because of his sacrifice.

Just stop trying to use an "ocidental" (leftist) perspective to analyze this particular point of view of manga, you will fail. Miserably. Boys and girls are different. They will always be. There's biology explaining that. There's markets explaining that... There's a world damn world that explains and proves that.

Neverland is not a great series because of that. But because it's interesting. Stop trying to twist it so it can be putted on your world view.

Girls can be AWESOME protagonists. If they are not, that's not because what they have under panties, but because they suck.

--- Double Post Merged, May 12, 2017, Original Post Date: May 12, 2017 ---

You take that back right this instant or return to where you came from.

I'm not quite sure but... Does Medaka ever, EVER got first position on TOC? And even if it did, I doubt that it was within the same number of chapters that Neverland has. So it's pretty obvious that Emma is not only better, she makes the series better and Neverland does not even have "Emma" on its name =)

 

[N0R7H]

About Norman's death, I don't think he was killed. They didn't show the corpse, he even was surprised of what he was seeing, so it's probable he will return at some point (Although I hope he doesn't come back as a demon or someone of the bad guys, because that would be a cliché).

 

[ChocoBar9]

I really shouldn't bite but...

That's exactly why series like Kuroko no Basket, that have a large fanbase of girls (fujoshis specifically) are special. Because it has a characteristic that makes it appealing for other demography(s).

You're joking right? A shounen series appealing to females is incredibly common, in fact the demographic that supports and reads Jump the most nowadays are female because low and behold a magazine that has stories filled with attractive young male leads is going to catch the eye of girls over boys.

And nooooo, if Emma was a BOY it would be COMPLETELY different. Emma has a totally feminine personality. She cares about the other kids WAY more than the other 2 "protagonists" (I agree that Emma is the main one here). She was the ONLY one willing to save everybody, this is clearly a maternal love. And guess what? There's NOTHING wrong with that. But don't start a conversation saying that "if she was a he nothing would change". It would most certainly change.

Nothing in the manga even states that was the case. You wanna know why she wanted to save everyone? They're her family and she loves them which is a sentiment shared throughout the cast. There's no gender bias towards wanting to save people especially the people you love in fact its what drives most of the cast throughout the story even assholes like Ray did what he did because he wanted to save the two people that matter most to him. The Norman bit I've already touched on and a self-sacrificial love is something that's not foreign for Jump manga either.

Just stop trying to use an "ocidental" (leftist) perspective to analyze this particular point of view of manga, you will fail. Miserably. Boys and girls are different. They will always be. There's biology explaining that. There's markets explaining that... There's a world damn world that explains and proves that.

So why the hell are their shounen manga with female protagonists and shoujo manga with male ones? Why is one of the most popular and well-celebrated manga ever published from Jump have a female lead? To say that stories can't be universal is ridiculous in itself which is not ruling out the fact that they are stories that work with one specific gender in mind and TPN is not one of them. To say that all stories can't work with either gender in mind is incredibly unethical and shits on all the stories that's been published by other authors that doesn't have the same mindset towards it.

 

[shoyoboyo]

I'm not quite sure but... Does Medaka ever, EVER got first position on TOC? And even if it did, I doubt that it was within the same number of chapters that Neverland has. So it's pretty obvious that Emma is not only better, she makes the series better and Neverland does not even have "Emma" on its name =)

what is this logic
no seriously I'm actually speechless at this

Also about Emma wanting to save everyone, that's not maternal love. That's literally the mindset of the generic shounen mc. Emma is basically a genderbent shounen mc, although generally more rational than others.

 

[Nakura]

I definitely disagree that the reason for Emma wanting to save everyone is because she is female.

 

[ruggia]

For reference (?) from 2012:

Top 5 series with the highest proportion of each gender. (M - blue / F - red)

Jump readership at the time was 79.8% Male, 20.2% Female.

 

[G_I_A]

About Norman's death, I don't think he was killed. They didn't show the corpse, he even was surprised of what he was seeing, so it's probable he will return at some point (Although I hope he doesn't come back as a demon or someone of the bad guys, because that would be a cliché).

I hope he does not as well. It does not matter however is he is dead or not. The plan worked because Emma and Ray thinks he is.

I really shouldn't bite but...


You're joking right? A shounen series appealing to females is incredibly common, in fact the demographic that supports and reads Jump the most nowadays are female because low and behold a magazine that has stories filled with attractive young male leads is going to catch the eye of girls over boys.


Nothing in the manga even states that was the case. You wanna know why she wanted to save everyone? They're her family and she loves them which is a sentiment shared throughout the cast. There's no gender bias towards wanting to save people especially the people you love in fact its what drives most of the cast throughout the story even assholes like Ray did what he did because he wanted to save the two people that matter most to him. The Norman bit I've already touched on and a self-sacrificial love is something that's not foreign for Jump manga either.



So why the hell are their shounen manga with female protagonists and shoujo manga with male ones? Why is one of the most popular and well-celebrated manga ever published from Jump have a female lead? To say that stories can't be universal is ridiculous in itself which is not ruling out the fact that they are stories that work with one specific gender in mind and TPN is not one of them. To say that all stories can't work with either gender in mind is incredibly unethical and shits on all the stories that's been published by other authors that doesn't have the same mindset towards it.

It's specifically written fujoshi there.

--- Double Post Merged, May 12, 2017, Original Post Date: May 12, 2017 ---

I definitely disagree that the reason for Emma wanting to save everyone is because she is female.

Nobody said that. I said that she was the only one willing to do that.

--- Double Post Merged, May 12, 2017 ---

what is this logic
no seriously I'm actually speechless at this

Also about Emma wanting to save everyone, that's not maternal love. That's literally the mindset of the generic shounen mc. Emma is basically a genderbent shounen mc, although generally more rational than others.

True, the generic shounen act. But again, a (Good) girl shounen mc is beyond rare.

Rational? She was willing to jeopardize the whole escape plan if was not possible to save everyone. At the end she gave up doing that. That was the only rational part.

--- Double Post Merged, May 12, 2017 ---

For reference (?) from 2012:

Top 5 series with the highest proportion of each gender. (M - blue / F - red)

Jump readership at the time was 79.8% Male, 20.2% Female.

So pretty much the manga that girls like more are the ones with men exercising, comedy and good art That's the definition of shoujo dude. One Piece everybody likes, not a biggy.

What a shock!

It's worth mentioning that love comedy like Nisekoi is NOT that "loved" by girls. Probably because the harem part.

 

[tirakai]

I think we've hit the 80 post mark of this sexism discussion now.

In an attempt to twist it into something a bit more positive, who are everyone's favourite WSJ female characters? From the current line-up mine would be either Noelle, Nezuko, or Tadokoro (now if only she could get some time in the spotlight again) but I have no clue about an all time top. Just counting romance series it would probably be Nishino from Ichigo 100% but the whole magazine is a lot harder to pick from.

 

[Nakura]

In an attempt to twist it into something a bit more positive, who are everyone's favourite WSJ female characters?

Kagura, Nezuko, Reina and Uraraka from the current line up.

 

[G_I_A]

Dude what sexism?? Come on... Pretty much everybody said: We don't care if a mc is male or female... As long as it's good... But ok...

It's hard to find appealing female characters as I said...

But my favorite is Chrome from Reborn. I like her unique design and personality.

 

[Inumaru]

Teruhashi from the current line-up and Himeko from all time.

 

[ruggia]

who are everyone's favourite WSJ female characters?

Yako from Noukami Neuro hands down. Also probably Elraine of Double Arts had it coninued on.

 

[Nakura]

Dude what sexism?? Come on... Pretty much everybody said: We don't care if a mc is male or female... As long as it's good... But ok...

He meant that the discussion was on sexism, not that the discussion itself was sexist.

 

[G_I_A]

He meant that the discussion was on sexism, not that the discussion itself was sexist.

Indeed I misinterpreted... I'm sorry.

 

[Koi Kage]

Iwho are everyone's favourite WSJ female characters? From the current line-up mine would be either Noelle, Nezuko, or Tadokoro (now if only she could get some time in the spotlight again) but I have no clue about an all time top. Just counting romance series it would probably be Nishino from Ichigo 100% but the whole magazine is a lot harder to pick from.

From the current line up my favorite WSJ female characters are: Noelle, Megumi, Tsu, Rizu-Furuhashi-Takemoto, Kagura, and Robin-Reiju
From older line ups my favorite WSJ characters are: Chrome, Rukia, Botan, and Videl

 

[Deathinteresse]

In an attempt to twist it into something a bit more positive, who are everyone's favourite WSJ female characters?

Present: Yuuna & Alice
Past: Medaka, Porno Dianno (Bastard!!) & Clare (Claymore)

 

[savethecat]

What's been going on in U19

 

[Leoat12]

Have to admit, I usually lurk on this thread but the topic of the lack of good female characters is interesting. First it's silly to say "who reads jump for girls" Erina? Yuuna? Chitoge? Sakura seems to have set the standard of what not to make your mc if she's a girl. We all can agree Kishi sucks at women, even Tsunade, who was propped up as so strong and admirable, was supported by Dan so again iceempeeor's point is valid and I loved his answer to this condundrum.

On neverland, I ageee with chocobar. I'm a girl but I can admit nothing would be too different if Emma was a boy. Norman would be a girl and so the crush would still exist. Neverland's story does not matter who's the main lead, it's simply inspiring enough to have anyone be the lead, as most of the children get their screentime as the lead. I don't read neverland for Emma being a girl but it's nice to see a female lead even if she's a tomboy. We can't tell others what to read this or that for but we also shouldn't discriminate things due to this having no girls or this having no boys. A good story is a good story.

Just to confirm, you are saying that Erina and Chitoge are good characters and Sakura is not, right? I agree, but it is the first time that someone says that Erina and Chitoge are good characters so maybe I misunderstood. XD
Man, Chitoge was a good character, deeper than many people think and contributed a lot for the subject of women empowerment without losing and delicacy. It is bullshit people saying that girls cannot cry, be emotional or depend on someone sometimes.
For me this one in my signature is another perfect example of how woman should act.

 

[vampire killer]

Why no one is talking about Jolyne? Or Giorno?

 

[TyVip]

Giorno is not a woman lol.