@Axiomus@CaptainTorch ur missing the point those feats are irrelevant because base natsu>iG natsu. Ur logic is debunk becuase u can same the same Wendy we saw that got no diff bluenote isn't the same Wendy that fought Irene so therefore Wendy is around spriggan lvl or erza is high tier sprrigans because she wasn't the same person she was vs ajeel?. @CaptainTorch no the parent dragons have feats and their feats are to erase human memory's and to able to destroy faces around the continents in seconds. Also when using hype and protrayal u have to have a decent feat which zeref doesn't. No diff powerless/exchausted characters is hardly an impressive feat. In my eyes
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Also invel didn't use ice lock on POF Gray. Those panel I can say that natsu using a weaker power to brake out of which means that DF natsu is league below base natsu give gray the pof and he is on the same league as pof natsu
Igneel-powered Natsu could have potentially killed Zeref. Base Natsu just knocked him down. Erza had a bunch of disadvantages against Ajeel, but dealing enough damage to take him out wasn't one of them. With POF, she is definitely above your average Spriggan. Also, the difference between Erza's scenario against Ajeel and Natsu's scenario against Invel is obviously the condition they were in. Gray had POF against Invel. Gray had POF and was demonized against END Natsu. END Natsu wasn't in the same league as DF Natsu, and POF Natsu is above DF.
Base Natsu with POF
FH Zeref
DF Natsu/Igneel-powered Natsu Zeref/August/Irene
END Natsu/Demonized Gray with POF
Base Natsu/Base Gray with POF Invel/Demonized Gray
Base Gray
Sand World isn't even an attacking spell...
And you know that a person can still be top tier even without good feats? Because going by your logic, the Parent Dragons excluding Igneel are weaklings, because they didn't show feats :/
But since you wanted feats, here you go:
Speaking of which, has anyone else noticed the lack of destructive power in Natsu this arc? Like, Laxus is throwing city-busters, Gildarts destroyed Kardia cathedral with a single punch, and August is fucking up everything within his near vicinity, but it takes the combined force of FH Zeref and Natsu's most powerful attacks to destroy the guild. Like, shit, dude. They used to do that without trying.
Speaking of which, has anyone else noticed the lack of destructive power in Natsu this arc? Like, Laxus is throwing city-busters, Gildarts destroyed Kardia cathedral with a single punch, and August is fucking up everything within his near vicinity, but it takes the combined force of FH Zeref and Natsu's most powerful attacks to destroy the guild. Like, shit, dude. They used to do that without trying.
Whats funnier is that the guild didnt even get destroyed by that combined attack, it just lit up the windows. You can see in later panels that the nearby chairs and tables are for the most part fine, even the FT flag managed to escape incineration. I remember when two Erza's clashing blew up islands...
Whats funnier is that the guild didnt even get destroyed by that combined attack, it just lit up the windows. You can see in later panels that the nearby chairs and tables are for the most part fine, even the FT flag managed to escape incineration. I remember when two Erza's clashing blew up islands...
Hiro's been really inconsistent this arc. Natsu had some of the best AoE and DC in the arc up until after the Jacob fight. From that point on his roars have been getting smaller and his fists are only causing people to be sent flying instead of changing the landscape like it used to, etc.
I think Hiro just wants to avoid destroying the guild again. That's why stuff like Zeref's Fairy Heart shockwave and DF Natsu's demolition fist didn't actually destroy the guild despite having sizeable AoE. I don't really see a lack of destructive from Natsu either. He melted the GMG, which can house a city within it. Demolition Fist destroyed the War God, which is about 1/3rd of a city by mass. FDK's body heat affected a lake. FDK roar had comparable AoE to Laxus' nukes. Dragon Force's demolition fist also had a comparable AoE to FDK roar.
I think Hiro just wants to avoid destroying the guild again. That's why stuff like Zeref's Fairy Heart shock wave and DF Natsu's demolition fist didn't actually destroy the guild despite having sizeable AoE. I don't really see a lack of destructive feats from Natsu this arc either. Natsu melted the GMG, which can house a city within it. Demolition Fist destroyed the War God, which is about 1/3rd of a city. FDK's body heat affected a lake. FDK roar had comparable AoE to Laxus' nukes. Dragon Force's demolition fist also had a comparable AoE to FDK roar.
While that is true, Natsu's attacks did get smaller over time during this arc. There are some exceptions(DF + FDK Attack), but overall it is like that sadly.
Like here are his casual attacks for comparison:
Granted, Natsu was more serious in the first example. So maybe he is holding up his destructiveness in the guild... But I just wished to see him wreck shit in the final battle... so dissapointing.
Natsu doesn't use hax, but his magic can burn hax. Natsu's magic can now burn time, infinity and even logic itself. I bet you, it burned even Mashimas pencil when he drew that abysmal chapter lol. That guild emotion fire magic nonsense would drop anyone in the series, even Acnologia, ... and Ankhseram himself.
Zeref has decent attack power. More than enough power to put in hole in Larcade. Zeref's "Black Exploding Flame Blade" is arguably stronger than any of Natsu's attacks except the finisher last chapter that burned Natsu's own arm, and maybe demolition fist in dragon force. Both attacks would erase Invel to be honest, and are way above something like Ice Devil's Broken Fist in terms of attack power. Zeref has attacks that can put holes in Invel, and he can tank attacks that would erase Invel from the face of the earth, and he can keep up in close quarters combat with Natsu tiers. Gray can kick around Invel without just hand to hand combat, and Gray isn't as strong as DF Natsu nor the version of Natsu in 536.
The divine railment was shattered by Gray's brute strength. Also, Gray can actually imitate the ice of the true ice kamui, so the ice isn't actually unique to Invel. It's demonic ice, and as a devil slayer Gray should have demonic as as well. We've actually seen Gray's attempts to instant freeze END Natsu, and the power necessary to break free of it. Don't you think Zeref could recreate the power behind END Natsu's fire if he can keep up with Natsu? Now factor in the fact that Gray still resorted to using lost ice shell in order to trap Zeref. If Gray could imitate Invel's ice, and can obviously instant freeze, why do you think he resorted to giving up his life to trap Zeref?
People are acting as if the version of Natsu that "fought" Invel was anywhere close to the version of Natsu that fought Zeref. Natsu and Invel never really had a proper fight. The roar that Invel froze was intended to be used against the Alvarez Troops. It took way less effort for Natsu to break out of Invel's ice than it did to escape Zeref's black magic. Both spells kept Natsu trapped for around 1 chapter, the only difference is Zeref's spell actually did a fair bit of damage in the process whereas Natsu was basically completely unharmed by the ice
1. Wasn't exploding flame blade used by Fairy Heart Zeref and not base Zeref? Doesn't really matter anyway because his black magic doesn't have any recent impressive feats. Give me a sword and I can do the same thing to an injured, unexpecting Larcade.
2. Recreate the the fire of END? When has he been shown to possess any of the powers of his demons or flames as hot as Natsu's? Giving him magic he hasn't shown is just choosing hype over feats.
3. I thought he integrated the ice, not imitated it but if that is the official translation than Invel can still use Ice Lock which has been shown to work on someone stronger than him, Gray, and someone with more magic power than him, Mavis. Dimaria's and Brandish's hax don't work on stronger opponents but Larcade is proof that not all haxs work this way. Plus I could easily argue that Gray chose iced shell instead of Invel's ice because he only managed to replicate it across his arm which would require him to manage to punch Zeref that would be difficult for him in his injured state.
Well, that's not the reason I quoted you. And I didn't compare any battles. I just wanted to make fun of Natsu, and show that at this moment forward its pointless comparing him to anyone.
1. Wasn't exploding flame blade used by Fairy Heart Zeref and not base Zeref? Doesn't really matter anyway because his black magic doesn't have any recent impressive feats. Give me a sword and I can do the same thing to an injured, unexpecting Larcade.
2. Recreate the the fire of END? When has he been shown to possess any of the powers of his demons or flames as hot as Natsu's? Giving him magic he hasn't shown is just choosing hype over feats.
3. I thought he integrated the ice, not imitated it but if that is the official translation than Invel can still use Ice Lock which has been shown to work on someone stronger than him, Gray, and someone with more magic power than him, Mavis. Dimaria's and Brandish's hax don't work on stronger opponents but Larcade is proof that not all haxs work this way. Plus I could easily argue that Gray chose iced shell instead of Invel's ice because he only managed to replicate it across his arm which would require him to manage to punch Zeref that would be difficult for him in his injured state.
It was done using the black magic, so it might not have been done with Fairy Heart's power. In any case, Zeref still has the ability to blow holes in Larcade and trap Natsu in his black magic. However unimpressive you think Zeref was against Larcade are, Invel's feat against Natsu was even less impressive. Matching END's flames would break Gray's ice. Zeref doesn't need to match END to dispel Invel's ice. Zeref only needs to generate flames as powerful as the ones Natsu used to dispel Invel's ice. Even if you think black exploding flame blade is severely weakened without Fairy Heart, surely it can't be so weak to be weaker than what is shown below. At the very least, it should still be stronger than the attack that killed Larcade.
That was the official translation. There is a limit on who Invel's ice lock would work against, and that limit was base Gray w/POF. Zeref is on a level higher than that. Again, Gray can instant freeze as well. He can do it better than Invel can to be honest. If beating Zeref was as simple as instant freezing him, then Gray didn't have resorted to ice shell.
Well, that's not the reason I quoted you. And I didn't compare any battles. I just wanted to make fun of Natsu, and show that at this moment forward its pointless comparing him to anyone.
Sure, I understand some people want to make fun of Natsu. But I'm not here to do that. (Nor could I care any less about that)
I'm here to strictly compare Zeref and Invel.
And personally, I don't see any reason why Invel should not proceed over Zeref, according to Mashima's writing.
I assumed everybody was going by feats and performances, but I found it hard to believe that some people would start ignoring critical areas of the manga just to say that Zeref wins.
Invel wins in my honest opinion and by my honest analysis.
It was done using the black magic, so it might not have been done with Fairy Heart's power. In any case, Black Exploding Flame Blade might be the exception, but Zeref still has the ability to blow holes in Larcade. However unimpressive you think Zeref was against Larcade, Invel's feat against Natsu was even less impressive.
Zeref doesn't need to recreate END's flames, he needs to create flames as powerful as END's. To be honest, END's attacks weren't all that impressive at all. Zeref's exploding flame blade is easily more powerful than any of END's attacks. Besides, Zeref doesn't need to match END to dispel Invel's ice. Zeref only needs to generate flames as powerful as the ones Natsu is using here to dispel Invel's ice.
That was the official translation. There is a limit on who Invel's ice lock would work against, and that limit was Gray after he reached POF. Zeref is on a level higher than that. Again, Gray can instant freeze as well. He can do it better than Invel can to be honest. If beating Zeref was as simple as instant freezing him, then Gray didn't have resorted to ice shell.
He would have to create flames both as powerful and hot as Natsu's partial END's flames and continually radiate them from his body, a feat that he hasn't shown. Invel didn't even attempt ice lock on Gray again and I don't think that has much to do with Gray's pof power. Based on the context of his uses of ice lock, I think it works best as a sneak attack but he wouldn't need to catch Zeref off guard if he can freeze him for a moment long enough to ice lock him. If Invel knew Natsu's abilities and wasn't distracted by Gray he could have ice locked Natsu in the time it took him to melt the ice. I believe that it would take Zeref around the same time to melt Invel's ice that Natsu took
