Discussion About Aura Combat & How Nen Works

[Demonspeed]

Netero's ability is no "special" enough though. He basically uses palm attacks and aura beams to fight. The hand motions are at the core. And even Specialists have categories they are better at.

The bold part is precisely why I think netero is indeed an enhancer as the databook suggests. Why not have an ability? Soon after the concept of nen was introduced the point was made that enhancers don't really need complicated hatsu to be effective fighters as they could just use standard techniques to great effect. That is true to the point where even most enhancers we have seen in the manga today basically use ko or enhanced weapons to fight. Take gon and uvogin, their techniques are virtually identical safe for the name. Phinx also has a variation of ko, nobunaga enhances his sword... And so on. In context, it makes perfect sense for netero to not develop a fancy hatsu for fighting as an enhancer. In turn it would be astoundingly ridiculous if he was anything else and didn't develop a hatsu.

Add to that that by the time netero started his insane "training" he was already a powerful nen user. He wasn't a newby off to die lonely in the mountains. He was an accomplished warrior that had already mastered nen.

As for netero not needing manipulation or transmutation for his nen, assuming such things even apply to it, he absolutely does. Shaping nen regardless of what into and context is a properly of transmutation. Heck, the most basic transmutation training is basically shaping your nen into numbers. If even that is transmutation then turning your nen into a statue, a monkey or a sword absolutely is transmutation.

As for manipulation, I don't see how he can get rid of that. You have emitted nen but you need to do stuff with it. The prayer makes sense as a condition to overcome manipulation limitations he might have. According to the wiki even kastro's clone required manipulation and that was a conjured clone... The idea that a nen construct wouldn't require manipulation makes even less sense in this regard.

Nothing says that Netero was a powerful Nen user before his training in the mountain. We only know that he was a Nen user grateful to martial arts, we also don't know when he started learning it. All he was doing was training for this alone, he surprised himself when he realized how good he had become. His legend began after that. I didn't say that Manipulation is not needed, it is, but not when he is using he Hands techniques like First and Third Hand since there are precise movements he must execute to make the statue attack.

If Transmutation is necessary for HK, then what of Razor and Goreinu's abilities? Following that logic even a Nen ball would be Transmutation. It would mean both Razor and Goreinu disregarded their talents and added Transmutation to their abilities, Paper is a Emission/Transmutation. Even Conjuration abilities and many more would have Transmutation in them because the weapons are part or their aura and have different shapes. We don't know much about Emission training but just as Kurapika's image training, Netero must have visualized the statue in his mind, and later his Hatsu manifested a statue, no Transmutation involved. I can't imagine him emitting a mass of aura behind him and trying to shape it as he wants. And about the shape training, it helps to get better at Transmutation but it is still something possible with the basics. Developing an ability is more advanced than that.

 

[kkck]

Netero's ability is no "special" enough though. He basically uses palm attacks and aura beams to fight. The hand motions are at the core. And even Specialists have categories they are better at.

Nothing says that Netero was a powerful Nen user before his training in the mountain. We only know that he was a Nen user grateful to martial arts, we also don't know when he started learning it. All he was doing was training for this alone, he surprised himself when he realized how good he had become. His legend began after that. I didn't say that Manipulation is not needed, it is, but not when he is using he Hands techniques like First and Third Hand since there are precise movements he must execute to make the statue attack.

If Transmutation is necessary for HK, then what of Razor and Goreinu's abilities? Following that logic even a Nen ball would be Transmutation. It would mean both Razor and Goreinu disregarded their talents and added Transmutation to their abilities, Paper is a Emission/Transmutation. Even Conjuration abilities and many more would have Transmutation in them because the weapons are part or their aura and have different shapes. We don't know much about Emission training but just as Kurapika's image training, Netero must have visualized the statue in his mind, and later his Hatsu manifested a statue, no Transmutation involved. I can't imagine him emitting a mass of aura behind him and trying to shape it as he wants. And about the shape training, it helps to get better at Transmutation but it is still something possible with the basics. Developing an ability is more advanced than that.

Not special enough? It defies most of the stuff we know about nen altogether. The sheer damage output he has is astonishing compared to any amount of nen he can plausibly have. He is faster than anyone else we have seen in the series. His fighting capacity easily and vastly exceeds any other human we have seen in the series. We have never even seen a human whom we can reasonably suggest could avoid at least one punch from netero's kannon....

We are talking about netero being grateful to martial arts altogether... I can't fathom him getting to that point without being a competent nen user at worst.

Of course they need transmutation, if anything in my post I literally mention them. Nen doesn't turn into gorilla's out of wishful thinking. It is a conscious thing which requires time and practice. Of course, a ball requires far more skill than a monkey. You think gon's transmutation technique would be scissors but in turn goreinu would get actual monkeys without transmutation? The only way goreinu's monkeys are not transmuted into that specific shape would be that they are conjured but that is in fact not the case of course.

Kurapica's training for the chain was for conjuration. That is fundamentally different from anything done with emission. And we have seen the basics of emission and transmutation training during the greed island arc. With emission we saw gon throwing tiny balls into the distance and for transmutation we saw him shaping his nen as numbers. We also saw killua learn how to turn his nen into electricity which IIRC was him electrocuting himself, presumably learning the feeling of electricity on him and then "insert random nen jargon here" which results in him being able to shoot lightning. Most stuff in nen does not happen by accident. Except specialization so far and arbitrary mental stuff conditions and whatnot. Ok, that is a fair bit of random but the bulk of it can still be explain within the confines of the 5 traditional nen types and other rules togashi has introduced.

 

[Demonspeed]

Not special enough? It defies most of the stuff we know about nen altogether. The sheer damage output he has is astonishing compared to any amount of nen he can plausibly have. He is faster than anyone else we have seen in the series. His fighting capacity easily and vastly exceeds any other human we have seen in the series. We have never even seen a human whom we can reasonably suggest could avoid at least one punch from netero's kannon....

I don't see what is so special about HK as an ability. It is powerful yes but the way it works is simple, nothing complex about this. Without Netero's incredibly fast hand motions it would not be that good.

We are talking about netero being grateful to martial arts altogether... I can't fathom him getting to that point without being a competent nen user at worst.

The thing about Netero is that he was that dedicated to martial arts. He knew Nen but it doesn't mean he was one of the best or had an ability, then he went to train in the mountains for 10 years with a strict training regimen. The prayers are at the core of his ability, before these years of training, he could have never been able to pray like that. How would he be able to fight efficiently with this when he needed 5-6 seconds for prayers? He developed HK after the two years when he noticed his incredible speed at the earliest, when he was 48.

Of course they need transmutation, if anything in my post I literally mention them. Nen doesn't turn into gorilla's out of wishful thinking. It is a conscious thing which requires time and practice. Of course, a ball requires far more skill than a monkey. You think gon's transmutation technique would be scissors but in turn goreinu would get actual monkeys without transmutation? The only way goreinu's monkeys are not transmuted into that specific shape would be that they are conjured but that is in fact not the case of course.

Kurapica's training for the chain was for conjuration. That is fundamentally different from anything done with emission. And we have seen the basics of emission and transmutation training during the greed island arc. With emission we saw gon throwing tiny balls into the distance and for transmutation we saw him shaping his nen as numbers. We also saw killua learn how to turn his nen into electricity which IIRC was him electrocuting himself, presumably learning the feeling of electricity on him and then "insert random nen jargon here" which results in him being able to shoot lightning. Most stuff in nen does not happen by accident. Except specialization so far and arbitrary mental stuff conditions and whatnot. Ok, that is a fair bit of random but the bulk of it can still be explain within the confines of the 5 traditional nen types and other rules togashi has introduced.

If you consider Kurapika's chains and training as pure Conjuration, can't you consider the possibility that Nen creature training is pure Emission? Transmutation and Emission are two types which don't go well together. We only saw the very basics for Enhancement, Transmutation and Emission and the level 5 for Emission training. And all of this was preparation in order to develop Hatsu. Killua's electricity training was more personal, it had nothing to do with Biscuit's training methods.

 

[howdydodah]

I agree that it's somewhat simple especially for a master like netero, but the efficiency should be lower.

The question here is how he attained such a state. He was just punching, then suddenly everything went slow. He attained a level of speed beyond human limitations, even meruem can't keep up with his pace. Without meruem's deductive skills, and durability, he would'nt have overcame the bodhisattva.

 

[uberfayt]

Personally I'm not bothered by how Netero developed his ability, nevertheless I want to discuss the nen categories involved in HK:

I'd say Emission and Manipulation. The latter is not only needed to control it's general movements, but also to respond to Netero's hand movements. Now the question is: should we also include Transmutation?

I'm inclined to say yes since Netero's shaping his aura to look like Kannon, unfortunately it's not that simple. Why? Well first of all HK is not a transparent entity like Zeon's dragons, it actually has color and looks solid.
The other reason is simply because Togashi never explained how can anybody make tangible nen beasts* (by this I mean an entity like Gorein's apes or Lazor's devils) made of pure aura.

If the beast was conjured, then the problem is solved. If however it's not, then there is this foundamental question:

What nen category (other than Conjuration and specialization) is needed to create an actual solid form (with colors and actual dimensions)?

Emission is of course needed, but by definition it's just for the separation of aura from the body.
Transmutation could give us a shape, but it would be a colorless transparent form made of pure aura (like Zeno's Dragon dive).
Manipulation is finally needed to handle movements and control.

My point is, nothing in the manga explains the ingredients to create lifelike objects or entities out of aura, without using Conjuration. Hopefully Togashi will explain it.

 

[howdydodah]

Gorein's gorillas have a hint of conjuration on them, it's a conjuration ability(summoning them-enabling them to switch) and manipulators ability to control them.

HK i thought was pure aura? if not then a hint of conjuration as well. But I still think it's pure aura, a transmutation property of pure light, controlled by the mastery of manipulation and zero is the emission type.
For the simple reason that transmutation is next to his own category(reinforcement), it would be crazy to expend more time on training conjuration(well it is netero he prolly mastered every category), but in this case his ultimate hatsu should be at it's most effecient, which is Transmutation, Manipulation and Emission(zero). There's no reason for him to go conjuration, and if he did he would've considered giving it an ability w/c most conjurers would opt to doing.
Furthermore, when going for conjuration, one would consider it's advantagfes which it being an independent object, capable of attacking on it's own, however, what we see here is a case of transmuting and manipulating. Although knowing Netero, he prolly added conjuration just for the sake of aesthetics.

If creating objects is involved it is automatically under conjuration. Even 40% effeciency is enough to make simple objects. i.e. Goreinu, Razer, with Kastro being the most complex of the 3.

 

[uberfayt]

If creating objects is involved it is automatically under conjuration. Even 40% effeciency is enough to make simple objects. i.e. Goreinu, Razer, with Kastro being the most complex of the 3.

Well that's how I've depicted it a long time ago. But then I discovered that Gorein and Lazor's stuff were not conjured. It's a fact which is subtely hinted to in the manga :
when Lazor canceled his ability, the devils turned back into pure aura and returned to him. Conjured items however just disappear, they don't turn to aura anymore.
Problem is, it's not clear at all how those abilities are just "Emission".

I don't think you can have an ability with "a hint of conjuration", but then again maybe that's how you give a nen beast a solid image, even if it's still pure aura.

Also note that normal people can only see Conjured objects, and cannot see stuff made of pure aura. That's how one makes the distinction between Conjured and non-Conjured stuff.

 

[Demonspeed]

We have too Emitters who fight with Nen creatures like that. It is enough for me to believe that making pure Nen creatures is Emission related. Conjurers can create weapons with special abilities, Emitters can create Nen creatures with special abilities. I don't see what is the problem with them being tangible. Tangibility could also be a condition for these kind of creatures. Take Knuckle for example, if Potclean was tangible, his ability would not be very useful. But for the likes of Razor and Goreinu, tangibility is necessary or it would be too powerful. By creating these beasts they separate aura from their body too, so they are more vulnerable to attacks.

 

[howdydodah]

Any hatsu is an expenditure of nen, by expending aura to conjure objects, Razer is essentially cutting himself in halves, especially when conjuration for an emitter is only 40%. So it's safe to say conjurers have the ability to absorb them back, but I have to find the issue that supports your claim that they returned to him. I always thought he just turned them off because they were a waste of energy.

Anyway, his goons were conjuration abilities, they can think for themselves and have an ability of combining, all indicative of Conjuration category.

Edit: http://mangafox.me/manga/hunter_x_hunter/v17/c166/13.html
Or his summoning has an extra ability of returning, which is also indicative of Conjurers to imbue objects created with abilities.

@Demonspeed: Wiki's understanding of emission is incorrect at best. Emitters have no ability to create objects, it is in the range of Transmuters and Conjurers. Especially when Goreinu's, Razor's summons have a mind of their own, very indicative of being under the Conjurer category.

We can look at it this way, in the case of Zeno he transmutes his aura to Dragons, hence Dragon lance, then uses emission to enforce dragon dive and use them as arrows of some sort.

 

[Demonspeed]

I am not relying on the wiki though. I said emitted creatures, not objects. Razor, Goreinu and Knuckle are Emitters and created such creatures with their special abilities. The creatures they emit can be controlled via Manipulation(80% compatibility) and since they are emitted, their range wide. Conjurers and Transmuters however lack these good manipulation skills and range. Transmuters don't create object, but they are good at Conjuration so they can create an abilitie which are a mix of both types, same for Conjurers.

 

[uberfayt]

Any hatsu is an expenditure of nen, by expending aura to conjure objects, Razer is essentially cutting himself in halves, especially when conjuration for an emitter is only 40%. So it's safe to say conjurers have the ability to absorb them back, but I have to find the issue that supports your claim that they returned to him. I always thought he just turned them off because they were a waste of energy.

Anyway, his goons were conjuration abilities, they can think for themselves and have an ability of combining, all indicative of Conjuration category.

That's actually the problem, it is far from safe to assume conjurers can turn their objects to aura then absorb them. We can just speculate at best.
Here is how I see it: For conjurers, the difficult part is to create an object, but once that is done, I don't think it takes that much aura to make it appear. Moreover that aura is used only to materialize the object, kinda like a fee to make it appear, and therefore won't return to their maker as aura once they disappear.

Take Korutopi's ability for example when Chrollo used it on the arena against hisoka. The puppets which disappeared (like the referee's clone) didn't return to Chrolla as aura, it just vanished.

Razor's ability is not conjuration.

I don't see what is the problem with them being tangible.

Tangibility is not the problem, it's the lifelike form they get which is. To not confuse anybody, I'm gonna use pictures to make myself clearer:

Lets say I want to make a dragon with my nen. However, I don't want to use conjuration for it. And most importantly, I want it to look like this:

Spoiler

(i.e. lifelike, with colors and real dimensions), and I definitely don't want it like this :

Spoiler

(i.e. just transparent pure aura).


So what should I do then? It's not specified in the manga how to do it. And saying that it is an aspect of emission is just speculation of course, but it's not confirmed.

Take Knuckle for example, if Potclean was tangible, his ability would not be very useful

But potclean is tangible, Gon did punch it.

Another thing, Wikia states that Biscuit's ability "Cookie" is Emission...doesn't make much sense since as a transmutter she's closer to Conjuration.

 

[kkck]

I don't see what is so special about HK as an ability. It is powerful yes but the way it works is simple, nothing complex about this. Without Netero's incredibly fast hand motions it would not be that good.

The thing about Netero is that he was that dedicated to martial arts. He knew Nen but it doesn't mean he was one of the best or had an ability, then he went to train in the mountains for 10 years with a strict training regimen. The prayers are at the core of his ability, before these years of training, he could have never been able to pray like that. How would he be able to fight efficiently with this when he needed 5-6 seconds for prayers? He developed HK after the two years when he noticed his incredible speed at the earliest, when he was 48.

If you consider Kurapika's chains and training as pure Conjuration, can't you consider the possibility that Nen creature training is pure Emission? Transmutation and Emission are two types which don't go well together. We only saw the very basics for Enhancement, Transmutation and Emission and the level 5 for Emission training. And all of this was preparation in order to develop Hatsu. Killua's electricity training was more personal, it had nothing to do with Biscuit's training methods.

Netero threw hundreds of thousands of punches through his fight and perhaps even more than that. If he worked like normal nen users then each attack would have a nen tool on him. In the same way gon used a couple hundred worth of nen when he exchanged blows with knuckle. Not to mention the creature was virtually indestructible considering mereum never put so much as a dent on it which is also kinda weird because he vastly exceeded netero's nen amount as well.

Of course kannon was developed after the training, it would be impossible for him to fight with it without the training he underwent. But that only means he become an accomplished martial artist and nen user before that.

Kurapica's chain training? No, absolutely not. Conjuration and emission as nen types have no points in common. That said, we have seen plenty of cases of transmutation and emission working together. You have genthru at greed island, hisoka when he uses his gum at a distance... Zeno when doing his dragon rain technique. You would be correct in saying that emission and transmutation are somewhat far from each other however that limitation can be overcome via training and by simply not having the main focus of the nen be emission. In the end, if you have a "nen creature" then it necessarily requires transmutation and emission. Nen doesn't take shape by itself unless it was shaped like that to begin with which only applies to specialization nen which the user didn't have a had in specifically creating.

Pure emission would be something like what razor, gon or franklin have. More complex nen emitted objects would require intentionally shaping them in some way which is the literal definition of transmutation.

 

[howdydodah]

I am not relying on the wiki though. I said emitted creatures, not objects. Razor, Goreinu and Knuckle are Emitters and created such creatures with their special abilities. The creatures they emit can be controlled via Manipulation(80% compatibility) and since they are emitted, their range wide. Conjurers and Transmuters however lack these good manipulation skills and range. Transmuters don't create object, but they are good at Conjuration so they can create an abilitie which are a mix of both types, same for Conjurers.

Goreinu is not an emitter, he is a manipulator.
Emitters do not have the ability to create objects or creatures, it is under transmutation and Conjuration(creatures). For knuckle to create pot clean, he has to have a good degree of training in the arts of conjuration, because pot clean has a mind of it's own and has a seemingly limitless distance/range.

Emitters sole talents are separating the nen from it's body, so the clear example of an emitted, created nen object(non living) is Zeno's dragon. It does not have a mind of it's own and needs to be controlled via manipulation.

Conjurers can create objects and creatures, and in the case of creatures can have a mind of it's own. I.e. The princes nen beasts, although invisible it's safe to say it can be made that way due to restrictions. http://mangafox.me/manga/hunter_x_hunter/v07/c060/6.html

Transmuters creates/copies an objects properties not the object themselves, what they can do however, is copy the shape of the object as well or make their own unique one entirely. Transmuters can't make their nen objects visible, alive, with colors that'd be under Conjuration. Transmuters as well can't separate created objects from the users, that'd be under emission. The clear case of Transmutation is copying the properties of electricity, gum, or concrete.

So to summarize, you can combine different categories to get a desired effect. That's why Razers, Goreinu's, knuckle's nen creatures have their own mind because they are under Conjuration.

In Razer's case, just to make it clearer. He summons minions that can be hit physically, knows the rules, and have an extra ability of combining with one another to make them stronger as one. That is a clear case of Conjuration. Since Razer is only 40% effecient with the category, it's highly likely that he had to make conditions/restrictions in order to enhance it passed his 40%, which means the condition can only be to divide his aura according to the number of minions and then has the option to return his aura back whenever called upon.

 

[kkck]

Goreinu is not an emitter, he is a manipulator.
Emitters do not have the ability to create objects or creatures, it is under transmutation and Conjuration(creatures). For knuckle to create pot clean, he has to have a good degree of training in the arts of conjuration, because pot clean has a mind of it's own and has a seemingly limitless distance/range.

Emitters sole talents are separating the nen from it's body, so the clear example of an emitted, created nen object(non living) is Zeno's dragon. It does not have a mind of it's own and needs to be controlled via manipulation.

Conjurers can create objects and creatures, and in the case of creatures can have a mind of it's own. I.e. The princes nen beasts, although invisible it's safe to say it can be made that way due to restrictions. http://mangafox.me/manga/hunter_x_hunter/v07/c060/6.html

Transmuters creates/copies an objects properties not the object themselves, what they can do however, is copy the shape of the object as well or make their own unique one entirely. Transmuters can't make their nen objects visible, alive, with colors that'd be under Conjuration. Transmuters as well can't separate created objects from the users, that'd be under emission. The clear case of Transmutation is copying the properties of electricity, gum, or concrete.

So to summarize, you can combine different categories to get a desired effect. That's why Razers, Goreinu's, knuckle's nen creatures have their own mind because they are under Conjuration.

In Razer's case, just to make it clearer. He summons minions that can be hit physically, knows the rules, and have an extra ability of combining with one another to make them stronger as one. That is a clear case of Conjuration. Since Razer is only 40% effecient with the category, it's highly likely that he had to make conditions/restrictions in order to enhance it passed his 40%, which means the condition can only be to divide his aura according to the number of minions and then has the option to return his aura back whenever called upon.

Goreinu is an emitter. His creatures can't be seen by normal people since they are made purely out of nen.

As for potclean, it is emission. The distance bit you mention is specifically a properly of emitters. And the nen works by imposing it on someone, yet another emitter trait. Kinda like kurapica's chain which he places on his enemy's heart, that is also emission.

Zeno's dragons are transmutation as far as the series has revealed. However the bit he used during the quimera ants bit certainly uses a fair bit of emission.

I think you are confusing emiters and conjurers, you have those perfectly backwards there. Razor is a particularly powerful emitter, just look at his nen ball. Besides, his nen creatures are also emitted. Conjured objects can be seen without nen, nen beasts can' What goreinu and razor had is closer to nen beasts.

 

[Demonspeed]

Tangibility is not the problem, it's the lifelike form they get which is. To not confuse anybody, I'm gonna use pictures to make myself clearer:

Lets say I want to make a dragon with my nen. However, I don't want to use conjuration for it. And most importantly, I want it to look like this:

Spoiler

(i.e. lifelike, with colors and real dimensions), and I definitely don't want it like this :

Spoiler

(i.e. just transparent pure aura).


So what should I do then? It's not specified in the manga how to do it. And saying that it is an aspect of emission is just speculation of course, but it's not confirmed.

It depends on the category of the user and what you want to do with it first. I say it would be a Nen creature like the Gorillas, HK and the 14 Devils but disregarding Conjuration limits the possibilities. I don't think using Conjuration would be good for this anyway, the ability would be bad. You would get a real dragon, but what after this? Conjured things are real, would the dragon have life in it? I don't think so, would he listen to you? I don't think so, you would need Manipulation to control it. And even if you use conditions to conjure a dragon with life in it and poor Manipulation skills to control him since he would have his own will, he would die once killed and require food and stuff(unless of course, you add other conditions). It can't be a good ability if you are planning to use Conjuration for this. So in the end, Emission is the good option, you could get something like Shenron but he would not be a real creature.

But potclean is tangible, Gon did punch it.

Another thing, Wikia states that Biscuit's ability "Cookie" is Emission...doesn't make much sense since as a transmutter she's closer to Conjuration.

My bad, you are right. But Potclean is invincible, this is not the case for the others.

Netero threw hundreds of thousands of punches through his fight and perhaps even more than that. If he worked like normal nen users then each attack would have a nen tool on him. In the same way gon used a couple hundred worth of nen when he exchanged blows with knuckle. Not to mention the creature was virtually indestructible considering mereum never put so much as a dent on it which is also kinda weird because he vastly exceeded netero's nen amount as well.

Of course kannon was developed after the training, it would be impossible for him to fight with it without the training he underwent. But that only means he become an accomplished martial artist and nen user before that.

I am not sure I understand, are you saying that Netero had Kannon before his training in the mountains or not? If it's the latter I agree.

Kurapica's chain training? No, absolutely not. Conjuration and emission as nen types have no points in common. That said, we have seen plenty of cases of transmutation and emission working together. You have genthru at greed island, hisoka when he uses his gum at a distance... Zeno when doing his dragon rain technique. You would be correct in saying that emission and transmutation are somewhat far from each other however that limitation can be overcome via training and by simply not having the main focus of the nen be emission. In the end, if you have a "nen creature" then it necessarily requires transmutation and emission. Nen doesn't take shape by itself unless it was shaped like that to begin with which only applies to specialization nen which the user didn't have a had in specifically creating.

They are Nen categories, in the end the basis is always aura. Genthru's Countdown is not a good example because he needs his two friends's help. And Countdown is not Transmutation since the bombs are real. Hisoka can stretch his gum rather far, but it's been mentioned that when it's separated from his body, his limit is 10 meters. When it's stuck to his body Emission skills don't matter.

Pure emission would be something like what razor, gon or franklin have. More complex nen emitted objects would require intentionally shaping them in some way which is the literal definition of transmutation.

Razor has his Devils though. They have a clear shape and are Nen creatures. I don't think he needed Transmutation for that, they have born out of his imagination. Transmutation is incompatible with Emission, especially for such creatures, where Manipulation would be needed.

Goreinu is not an emitter, he is a manipulator.
Emitters do not have the ability to create objects or creatures, it is under transmutation and Conjuration(creatures). For knuckle to create pot clean, he has to have a good degree of training in the arts of conjuration, because pot clean has a mind of it's own and has a seemingly limitless distance/range.

Emitters sole talents are separating the nen from it's body, so the clear example of an emitted, created nen object(non living) is Zeno's dragon. It does not have a mind of it's own and needs to be controlled via manipulation.

If Knuckle, an Emitter, has to be good at Conjuration, don't you think it's inefficient? Conjuration has the worst compatibility with Emission, then there is Transmutation. He is not the only Emitter who uses Nen creatures like that so it is clearly an Emitter fighting style. According to this, the Devils would require Emission(100%), Conjuration(40%) or Transmutation(40%) and Manipulation(80%). It is too much, it can't work as a good Nen ability at all. Do you believe Razor, Knuckle and Goreinu were as dumb as Kastro? I don't.

I was wondering where it had been said where Goreinu is a Manipulator and saw on the wiki that it's from a game. I don't trust this but it doesn't matter much anyway because Emission and Manipulation are compatible. He can emits the gorillas and control them well over a large distance because of his Emission skills(80%).

Conjurers can create objects and creatures, and in the case of creatures can have a mind of it's own. I.e. The princes nen beasts, although invisible it's safe to say it can be made that way due to restrictions. http://mangafox.me/manga/hunter_x_hunter/v07/c060/6.html

Transmuters creates/copies an objects properties not the object themselves, what they can do however, is copy the shape of the object as well or make their own unique one entirely. Transmuters can't make their nen objects visible, alive, with colors that'd be under Conjuration. Transmuters as well can't separate created objects from the users, that'd be under emission. The clear case of Transmutation is copying the properties of electricity, gum, or concrete.

So to summarize, you can combine different categories to get a desired effect. That's why Razers, Goreinu's, knuckle's nen creatures have their own mind because they are under Conjuration.

Kastro is the perfect example of a Nen user who made bad choices. He conjured a real person(60%, Hisoka said it's even harder than weapons), and he needed Manipulation(60%) to control him even though he was an Enhancer. It's just as I said, a bad choice.

Transmuters can't separate their aura depending on the ability, but it would not be very effective because they are not good at it.

Spoiler: Hisoka and Machi as examples

 

[kkck]

I am not sure I understand, are you saying that Netero had Kannon before his training in the mountains or not? If it's the latter I agree.

They are Nen categories, in the end the basis is always aura. Genthru's Countdown is not a good example because he needs his two friends's help. And Countdown is not Transmutation since the bombs are real. Hisoka can stretch his gum rather far, but it's been mentioned that when it's separated from his body, his limit is 10 meters. When it's stuck to his body Emission skills don't matter.

Razor has his Devils though. They have a clear shape and are Nen creatures. I don't think he needed Transmutation for that, they have born out of his imagination. Transmutation is incompatible with Emission, especially for such creatures, where Manipulation would be needed.

If Knuckle, an Emitter, has to be good at Conjuration, don't you think it's inefficient? Conjuration has the worst compatibility with Emission, then there is Transmutation. He is not the only Emitter who uses Nen creatures like that so it is clearly an Emitter fighting style. According to this, the Devils would require Emission(100%), Conjuration(40%) or Transmutation(40%) and Manipulation(80%). It is too much, it can't work as a good Nen ability at all. Do you believe Razor, Knuckle and Goreinu were as dumb as Kastro? I don't.

I was wondering where it had been said where Goreinu is a Manipulator and saw on the wiki that it's from a game. I don't trust this but it doesn't matter much anyway because Emission and Manipulation are compatible. He can emits the gorillas and control them well over a large distance because of his Emission skills(80%).

Kastro is the perfect example of a Nen user who made bad choices. He conjured a real person(60%, Hisoka said it's even harder than weapons), and he needed Manipulation(60%) to control him even though he was an Enhancer. It's just as I said, a bad choice.

Transmuters can't separate their aura depending on the ability, but it would not be very effective because they are not good at it.

I am saying he got kannon as a result of his training.

Countdown IIRC is a combination of nen. Though there is no emission there. However genthru is a transmuter who gives his nen explosive property.

It's not incompatible. It's not close to his category but he can learn the skill. And the skill ultimately does not depend primarily on transmutation but rather emission. Practicing a specific transmutation and then focusing on the emission part is not a stretch overall. And still, what you are suggesting is that emitted creatures are made essentially by doing what conjurers do. Which would not make too much sense with at least the early stages of transmutation training. We are talking about transmutation being trained by shaping your nen into numbers, why would shaping your nen into monkeys not require some level of transmutation? Emission and conjuration are practically opposite in regards to how they work....

 

[XXGenesis]

Come on guys it's been years & we are still mixing up the definitions of the 6Nen affinities.

Just because an enhancer's affinity for emission is 80% doesn't mean an ability like HK cannot be created & used.

HK is rather pretty simple. What makes it haxx & powerful is simply the users Base stats & Overall mastery of nen. Netero's overall nen capacity is ridiculously high plus in sure he can attack with a likewise enormous amount of nen. Top that off with A dexterity faster than sound , you have one of the greatest bad ass grandpa's.

Transmuter's are not bad at emission! Killua* personally doesn't have a natural niche for its application. Zeno has shown he has emission variants of his Hatsu which were still very powerful...I.E Dragon Dive which rained down on the castle. & Dragon Head which he created an entire dragon to transport Meruem & Netero

 

[Demonspeed]

I am saying he got kannon as a result of his training.

Then I agree.

Countdown IIRC is a combination of nen. Though there is no emission there. However genthru is a transmuter who gives his nen explosive property.

Emission matters for Countdown. Because the ability is active even if the target is very far. It uses the Nen of three people so I assume Genthru's weaknesses are not an issue. Knuckle's Potclean/Toritaten can follow the target no matter the distance, but it counts interests only when they are in a range of 100 meters.

It's not incompatible. It's not close to his category but he can learn the skill. And the skill ultimately does not depend primarily on transmutation but rather emission. Practicing a specific transmutation and then focusing on the emission part is not a stretch overall. And still, what you are suggesting is that emitted creatures are made essentially by doing what conjurers do. Which would not make too much sense with at least the early stages of transmutation training. We are talking about transmutation being trained by shaping your nen into numbers, why would shaping your nen into monkeys not require some level of transmutation? Emission and conjuration are practically opposite in regards to how they work....

If only these two categories were needed I would have agreed probably. But it is not the case here because Manipulation plays a huge role, it is another load on the Nen user's "memory". I posted Hisoka and Machi's pics for that reason. Bungee Gum and Machi's Nen threads are pure Transmutation abilities and yet their abilities become less effective the closer they do something similar to Emission. An Emitter who uses Nen creatures would be in a worse situation because he would be using three categories if what you are saying is correct. Which would make the creations frail.

Why do you think image training doesn't make sense for an Emitter because Conjurers do the same and yet believe that it's fine when it's Transmutation? Emitters are bad at both. And in the end, what we saw from Transmutation training was the basic. When Killua was training to turn his Nen into electricity, he needed image training as well. If they cant imagine what they want then they can't progress. It can't be something random.

Spoiler: Killua's training

 

[uberfayt]

Transmuter's are not bad at emission! Killua* personally doesn't have a natural niche for its application. Zeno has shown he has emission variants of his Hatsu which were still very powerful...I.E Dragon Dive which rained down on the castle. & Dragon Head which he created an entire dragon to transport Meruem & Netero

In general transmutters are not good with emission, which no wonder since it's only at 60% efficiency for them. Togashi gave examples with Hisoka and Machi (check @Demonspeed 's post above). Sure with a lot of talent, training, and some strict conditions on the ability, transmutters could compensate for said weakness. Examples of such transmutters would be Zeno and Silva. Heck there are even Conjurers who have overcome the emission weakness (through conditions), such as Kurapika or Genthru.

It depends on the category of the user and what you want to do with it first. I say it would be a Nen creature like the Gorillas, HK and the 14 Devils but disregarding Conjuration limits the possibilities. I don't think using Conjuration would be good for this anyway, the ability would be bad. You would get a real dragon, but what after this? Conjured things are real, would the dragon have life in it? I don't think so, would he listen to you? I don't think so, you would need Manipulation to control it. And even if you use conditions to conjure a dragon with life in it and poor Manipulation skills to control him since he would have his own will, he would die once killed and require food and stuff(unless of course, you add other conditions). It can't be a good ability if you are planning to use Conjuration for this. So in the end, Emission is the good option, you could get something like Shenron but he would not be a real creature.

Tbh, we can't know for sure if a conjured dragon would be bad or not, but it's not the problem at hand. Say that we want it through Emission. Now based on the given definition of Emission, how do we create a dragon such as Shenron, and not such as Zeno's? Or in general, how do we make a nen creature using Emission? This is my question.

The answer is we don't know, as it was never explained in the manga. I'm not intending by this that it's wrong to say Emission is the way to do it, I'm saying we cannot say with precision what must be used to create a nen-beast.

Oh and one more confusing thing ^^ : We know that Conjured items are real, but they can still be hidden by In, thus they are still considered aura, a bit of a contradiction here IMO...What's your take on this guys?

 

[howdydodah]

"As for potclean, it is emission. The distance bit you mention is specifically a property of emitters. And the nen works by imposing it on someone, yet another emitter trait. Kinda like kurapica's chain which he places on his enemy's heart, that is also emission. "

An emitter's limitations pertaining to distance/range isn't necessarily a conjurer's. A conjured object/creature can be left anywhere in the world regardless the distance and it'd be perfectly fine.

Ok, I admit I was disregarding Manipulation too much and was overthinking the "alive" factor of the Gorillas and Razer's nen Demons. It is the most logical route for them to use transmutation, emission, and manipulation to pull the summons off. And that the appearance of real monkeys are just there for the audience and not necessarily for the characters themselves, hence just nen shaped like monkeys due to transmutation.

But I have to make clear though, creating nen beasts is not an emitter ability, it is under Conjuration and Transmutation. In the case of Transmutation, it is just a hollow form, while Conjurations are actually real. And that the way Razer's demons act is just his pre-imposed commands through manipulations, like puppets.

In the case of pot clean, it may just be pre-set commands and not actually alive, so it'sstill a transmutation, emission combo. But Why the hell would an emitter choose that kind of hatsu though? I always though Knuckle was an enhancer, potclean doesn't suit an emitters hatsu.