Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2017] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Bigivelfhq]

I don't know. I think the era of the million sellers has passed. SnK only got it because before the anime it was already selling 700k.
I mean, some manga may achieve this in long-term, but in the first weeks as it was ten years ago with NANA, DN, Naruto, FMA, etc, I don't think so. AssClass and OPM made me understand that.

Neither Naruto, Full Metal Alchemist nor Death Note got first weeks 1 Million copies sold. Naruto only reached 900k first weeks, and in the end of the year reached around 1.1M to 1.2M, the same for Full Metal Alchemist. Death Note got a boost after the anime that only started after all the series was already released.

Reaching 1M copies in first weeks is a rarety. Even HunterxHunter didn't reached it, and only with the last 2 volumes has been able to reach it.
Don't let the 1.5M first weeks of Attack on Titan or the 2.5M first weeks of One Piece betray you to think that something like this is more common than what it is.

The market of the top sellers overall isn't that lower as one might think. It just seems like that because one person looks at the better numbers of the past series and is looking at the current numbers of past series.

In the past, the past decade, there was 5 series that in the end of the year reached 1M copies and 3 above 800k:

2008
1. One PIece 1.6M
2. Nana 1.6M
3. Nodame Cantabile 1.2M
4. Naruto 1.2M
5. Full Metal Alchemist 1M
---
6. Bleach 870k
7. HxH 860k
8. Boys Over Flowers 816k

Right now we have 1 close to 3M, another close to 2M, 3 reached 1M, 1 close to 1M, and 1 above 800k, 1 close to 800k(Note how is the same 8 series):

2016:
1. One Piece 2.98M
2. Attack on Titan 1.98M
3. HxH 1.27M
4. Assassination Classroom 1M
5. Haikyuu!! 1M
---
6. Tokyo Ghoul: re 997k
7. One-Punch Man 912k
8. Yotsuba 794k

Lets compare positions

1st -> 2016 wins by 1.38M
2nd -> 2016 wins by 380k
3rd -> 2016 wins by 70k
4th -> 2008 wins by 200k
5th -> Draw
---
6th -> 2016 wins by 127k
7th -> 2016 wins by 52k
8th -> 2008 wins by 22k

2016 is doing better for all except 2 series of 2008 and one Draw. Don't go draw conclusions so easily about the 1M line and the other near series either.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 9, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 9, 2017 ---

Why are we talking of total sales? While that number is a good measure of the profit the series gave to the magazine and its entire contribution, it doesn't tell about the peak of popularity of a series.
Dr. Slump only has 35M copies in total, but in its peak was way bigger than bleach peak, in fact significantly bigger than even Naruto.

 

[Shinji Hirako]

What? Dr Slump reached 2.2 million first print at volume 6. That's crazy. Also Toriyama will surely never be matched with two series having over 2 million for a first printing.

 

[De La Croissant]

Neither Naruto, Full Metal Alchemist nor Death Note got first weeks 1 Million copies sold. Naruto only reached 900k first weeks, and in the end of the year reached around 1.1M to 1.2M, the same for Full Metal Alchemist. Death Note got a boost after the anime that only started after all the series was already released.

Weird, from what I had seen on this site: https://animetics.net/2014/02/15/weekly-manga-sales-charts-for-2009/ FMA and Naruto could reach 1M in 3 weeks:
17, *30,399 1,017,218 Fullmetal Alchemist vol.21
11, *72,795 1,034,320 Naruto vol.47

Kimi ni Todoke could do that, too, after the anime.
4, *87,292 1,022,465 Kimi ni Todoke vol.14

My point is that they reached 1M faster. AssClass, for example, one of the biggest debuts of Jump, left the charts before reaching this.

 

[Caiops]

Just started reading Toriko again(Chapter 280 right now), and looks like Shimabukuro thought the series would run for over at least more ten years, so much foreshadowing, right now i cant see it finishing just in two years.

For mem it looks like Jump said
"Hey, what do you think about finishing Toriko? Its popular in the magazine, but the volumes don't sell so well anymore"

 

[Shinji Hirako]

[QUOTE="Caiops, post: 4603539, member: 188788"For mem it looks like Jump said
"Hey, what do you think about finishing Toriko? Its popular in the magazine, but the volumes don't sell so well anymore"[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't that be hypocritical of Jump. I mean Hinomaru Zumo is still in the magazine because of this situation. Plus I remember Toriko's rankings being all over the place so whilst it wasn't the least popular it wasn't thriving in the magazine.

 

[Bigivelfhq]

Weird, from what I had seen on this site: https://animetics.net/2014/02/15/weekly-manga-sales-charts-for-2009/ FMA and Naruto could reach 1M in 3 weeks:
17, *30,399 1,017,218 Fullmetal Alchemist vol.21
11, *72,795 1,034,320 Naruto vol.47

Kimi ni Todoke could do that, too, after the anime.
4, *87,292 1,022,465 Kimi ni Todoke vol.14

Yep, seems like since volume 47 to volume 54, Naruto was able to reach the 1M copies in around 3 weeks. Before that and after most volumes would take at least 5-6 weeks for that(with some volumes doing exceptionally well and doing better).

Fullmetal Alchemist volume 21 reached 1M in 5 weeks(it had 2 more weeks in the previous year).
It seems after that the series got way more popular and was able to achieve 1M copies in just 2 weeks.

I didn't remember they achieving 1M copies before the yearly results. I remembered seeing Naruto reaching 900k before another volume appearing. So I was wrong!
Strange enough after those big numbers they didn't increase that much more after dissapearing from the Oricon ranking. Seems like right now the sales are better distributed along the year.

 

[AllEyez]

In terms of manga released since 2001 I agree only Attack On Titan can pass Bleach in total sales. However we still don't know how much Bleach has sold outside of Japan.
There are still people who believe Bleach has not crossed the 100 million mark when adding worldwide numbers which is almost impossible.

US Sales - 2.6 Million: https://www.viz.com/news/newsroom/v/1006443

French Sales - 4 million(very good estimate): Only sales of volumes 17-71 have been shown and the total for those volumes is 2,618,940. The highest print for a volume is 60k and the early volumes were slow burners which is why they never ranked. It is reasonable to assume that volumes 1-16 have each reached 60k through reprints as they are the oldest volumes and cover a good portion of the Soul Society arc. That adds on 960,000 and all that is left is volumes 72-74 which should make up sales of 30k each as last year volumes were selling 34k. So 2,618,940+960,000+90,000 = 3.67 million(roughly). The remaining 330k would come from any subsequent reprints for volumes other than the first 16.
Sources - 2006-15: http://www.acbd.fr/category/les-bilans-de-l-acbd/ and 2016: http://www.acbd.fr/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Rapport-ACBD_2016.pdf

German Sales - 800k: http://tokyopop.de/aktuell/bleach-abschied/

Bleach reached 90 million at volume 73: http://www.mangamag.fr/actualite/ac...ews-lactualite-manga-japon-22-septembre-2016/
We know volume 74 has sold over 500k when you combine the amount it sold in 2016 and the amount it sold during the first half of this year.

Therefore Total Bleach sales worldwide = 90,500,000(Japan)+2,600,000(US)+4,000,000(France)+800,000(Germany) = 97,900,000

Remember that this number represents sales from Japan and three countries outside of Japan. But the real thing that proves that it has surpassed 100 million is the fact that Bleach manga has been printed in over 30 countries according to Lucca Comics and Games where Kubo will be a guest this year in Italy.
Source: https://www.luccacomicsandgames.com/it/2017/comics/ospiti/tite-kubo/

Final: 27 plus countries unaccounted for and just over 2 million to make up. Some of those are countries where manga is very popular such as Thailand, Indonesia, China etc.

Damn it took me so long to gather all this information and write it but considering Shueisha will probably never reveal its worldwide numbers this is the closest we can get to having an idea of its performance.

Yeah it's likely it could go over 100 mill

AOT I think won't beat it it's coming close to it's climax

And outside of JPN it's only hugely popular in US/Canada everywhere else it seems to be some what popular or it's banned.

So it won't have that to carry it over bleach.


What I'm wondering is why don't they report Bleach or HXH sales outside of Japan?

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 9, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 9, 2017 ---

Neither Naruto, Full Metal Alchemist nor Death Note got first weeks 1 Million copies sold. Naruto only reached 900k first weeks, and in the end of the year reached around 1.1M to 1.2M, the same for Full Metal Alchemist. Death Note got a boost after the anime that only started after all the series was already released.

Reaching 1M copies in first weeks is a rarety. Even HunterxHunter didn't reached it, and only with the last 2 volumes has been able to reach it.
Don't let the 1.5M first weeks of Attack on Titan or the 2.5M first weeks of One Piece betray you to think that something like this is more common than what it is.

The market of the top sellers overall isn't that lower as one might think. It just seems like that because one person looks at the better numbers of the past series and is looking at the current numbers of past series.

In the past, the past decade, there was 5 series that in the end of the year reached 1M copies and 3 above 800k:

2008
1. One PIece 1.6M
2. Nana 1.6M
3. Nodame Cantabile 1.2M
4. Naruto 1.2M
5. Full Metal Alchemist 1M
---
6. Bleach 870k
7. HxH 860k
8. Boys Over Flowers 816k

Right now we have 1 close to 3M, another close to 2M, 3 reached 1M, 1 close to 1M, and 1 above 800k, 1 close to 800k(Note how is the same 8 series):

2016:
1. One Piece 2.98M
2. Attack on Titan 1.98M
3. HxH 1.27M
4. Assassination Classroom 1M
5. Haikyuu!! 1M
---
6. Tokyo Ghoul: re 997k
7. One-Punch Man 912k
8. Yotsuba 794k

Lets compare positions

1st -> 2016 wins by 1.38M
2nd -> 2016 wins by 380k
3rd -> 2016 wins by 70k
4th -> 2008 wins by 200k
5th -> Draw
---
6th -> 2016 wins by 127k
7th -> 2016 wins by 52k
8th -> 2008 wins by 22k

2016 is doing better for all except 2 series of 2008 and one Draw. Don't go draw conclusions so easily about the 1M line and the other near series either.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 9, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 9, 2017 ---

Why are we talking of total sales? While that number is a good measure of the profit the series gave to the magazine and its entire contribution, it doesn't tell about the peak of popularity of a series.
Dr. Slump only has 35M copies in total, but in its peak was way bigger than bleach peak, in fact significantly bigger than even Naruto.

If we were to by peak for all the series all time.

How would that ranking look?

 

[SkerllyFC]

I was watching this video where Gigguk comments on what it´s sorta needed to make a good tournament arc. If you have a tournament in shonen jump that you´ve experienced and you didn´t like it, what do you think it did wrong? And what´s your opinion of Black Clover´s tournament from a sorta critical point?

I finished watching the Dark Tournament from YYH, and for me the only fight that felt consequential or unique or well executed was Toguro vs Yusuke, because there was a proper buildup to the fight even before the arc started. The other fights were mostly inconsequential, and done with characters we never got to see back again. Some of these fights might be intense, but not to the point of Toguro vs Yusuke.

 

[Bigivelfhq]

I was watching this video where Gigguk comments on what it´s sorta needed to make a good tournament arc. If you have a tournament in shonen jump that you´ve experienced and you didn´t like it, what do you think it did wrong? And what´s your opinion of Black Clover´s tournament from a sorta critical point?

I finished watching the Dark Tournament from YYH, and for me the only fight that felt consequential or unique or well executed was Toguro vs Yusuke, because there was a proper buildup to the fight even before the arc started. The other fights were mostly inconsequential, and done with characters we never got to see back again. Some of these fights might be intense, but not to the point of Toguro vs Yusuke.

I didn't liked much of the Toguro vs Yusuke fight. It was full of power-ups out of nowhere. Yusuke powered up right before the fight because of the death of his master(that got resurrected somehow), and then during the fight, it powered at least 2 times, but I don't remember really how many.

Good Tournaments you have Dragon Ball tournaments and One Piece Dressrossa one. Naruto tournaments(the one during the 2nd phase of chuuning exam and the 3rd phase) have really big high moments, but it also have some really low moments. But I would still consider as one of the best well done tournament.

Other than that Sport manga have excellent tournaments, but each game can be seens as a arc of itself, so they don't really have a tournament arc.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 9, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 9, 2017 ---

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 9, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 9, 2017 ---

If we were to by peak for all the series all time.

How would that ranking look?

Looking at the best 1st print of every series you have this:

>4.05 million: One Piece 67
>2.75 million: Shingeki no Kyojin 13
>2.50 million: Slam Dunk 21, 22, 23
>2.39 million: Chibi Maruko-chan 7
>2.37 million: BE-BOP HIGHSCHOOL 8
>2.30 million: NANA 14
>2.20 million: Dr. Slump 6
>2.20 million: Dragon Ball 35
>2.14 million: Kindaichi Case Files
>2.00 million: Miyuki
>2.00 million: Detective Conan 17
>1.90 million: Crayon Shin-chan 7
>1.83 million: Vagabond 15
>1.70 million: YuYu Hakusho 15
>1.70 million: Ping-Pong Club 9
>1.62 million: Naruto 31
>1.60 million: Kinnikuman 17
>1.60 million: HUNTER×HUNTER 13
>1.52 million: Fullmetal Alchemist 27
>1.50 million: Ranma ½ 13
>1.50 million: H2 17

Somethin like that. I don't believe Assassination Classroom got more than 1.5 Million copies per volume and that is I believe the only other recent series that would be closer to reach this list.

 

[Tamil]

Dark Tournament is pretty overrated but the anime made it better. Hiei's fights were amazing but trippy with the visuals.

Nothing to really brag about Dressrosa's tournaments and I'm not the biggest fan of Dragon Ball but it is good with tournaments from what I remember. Sports tournaments are good for sure, like Haikyuu's. My fav tournament arcs would be Sports Festival (MHA) & most of the tournaments in Hinomaru Zumou. HZ does it the best for me and it will only take an anime by IG for people to realize that sadly.

 

[De La Croissant]

Looking at the best 1st print of every series you have this:

>4.05 million: One Piece 67
>2.75 million: Shingeki no Kyojin 13
>2.50 million: Slam Dunk 21, 22, 23
>2.39 million: Chibi Maruko-chan 7
>2.37 million: BE-BOP HIGHSCHOOL 8
>2.30 million: NANA 14
>2.20 million: Dr. Slump 6
>2.20 million: Dragon Ball 35
>2.14 million: Kindaichi Case Files
>2.00 million: Miyuki
>2.00 million: Detective Conan 17
>1.90 million: Crayon Shin-chan 7
>1.83 million: Vagabond 15
>1.70 million: YuYu Hakusho 15
>1.70 million: Ping-Pong Club 9
>1.62 million: Naruto 31
>1.60 million: Kinnikuman 17
>1.60 million: HUNTER×HUNTER 13
>1.52 million: Fullmetal Alchemist 27
>1.50 million: Ranma ½ 13
>1.50 million: H2 17

Toriyama, Togashi and Adachi are monsters. Btw, no Touch?

 

[Leoat12]

What is the deal with all these numbers out of the blue? We were not talking about My Hero Academia and Haikyuu reaching Naruto and we agreed that it will never happen?

 

[Bigivelfhq]

Dark Tournament is pretty overrated but the anime made it better. Hiei's fights were amazing but trippy with the visuals.

Nothing to really brag about Dressrosa's tournaments and I'm not the biggest fan of Dragon Ball but it is good with tournaments from what I remember. Sports tournaments are good for sure, like Haikyuu's. My fav tournament arcs would be Sports Festival (MHA) & most of the tournaments in Hinomaru Zumou. HZ does it the best for me and it will only take an anime by IG for people to realize that sadly.

There is a lot to brag about Dressrossa tournament. During that time a lot of people was guessing who would win each phase, if there was any hidden strong and maybe known character like Jesus Burgess, and wanting to know the abilities of the named characters. It was a really well made tournament and you have a ton of high points. The Burgess appearance, Bellamy reappearance, King Punch, Bartolomeo, Lucy and Muchi, Appou Navy, Luffy vs Chinjao, Rebecca water dancing, Cavendish and Hakuba, Diamante, Burguess Hadou Elbow and finally the Dragon Breath and Sabo eating the fruit and ending it with a Hiken.
And all of that while other things were happening at that time and after the tournament a ton of characters still were relevant, and are still now.

Yep, a lot of people, normally the people that complain about anything to seem like they are expert critics, complained about the amount of characters, even though Oda made sure to introduce them a ton of times and each time in a different way to make them stick in your head and know that they were relevant, and called them fodder due to the structure of the tournment, even though a 1vs1 format make the same number of fodder characters, but it takes longer to go into all the fodders(Like how Yu Yu Hakusho dark tournament took 9 volumes of going from fodder to fodder with each of them getting their little time of limelight and then disappearing for ever).

People also complained about other things, it seems like with One Piece people search for things to complain and to say how before it was so much better, but you go to before(as soon as Water 7, Skypiea and even Alabasta) and you can also find a ton of this so called "expert critics" also complaining a ton about those arcs.

Still one of the best tournaments ever made. Though I would like some more chapters were added in some parts. While people were complaining of how long things were going; they are always complaining about this, they can't enjoy what is happening, they always want to see the next epic stuff, and unfortunately(or fotunately) One Piece as always a ton of future epic things set for the future.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 9, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 9, 2017 ---

Toriyama, Togashi and Adachi are monsters. Btw, no Touch?

You forgot Inoue Takehiko, you know the guy with 2.5M for Slam Dunk and 1.83M for Vagabond. And I believe 1M(or a little more) with Real.

Nope, it seems it didn't got a huge 1st print numbers. Well by huge I mean higher than 1.5 Million. Also it only got the anime when the manga was almost ending. Is possible that the huge sales, happened only after the anime and so in prints after the 1st.

Basically like Death Note.

 

[Tamil]

There is a lot to brag about Dressrossa tournament. During that time a lot of people was guessing who would win each phase, if there was any hidden strong and maybe known character like Jesus Burgess, and wanting to know the abilities of the named characters. It was a really well made tournament and you have a ton of high points. The Burgess appearance, Bellamy reappearance, King Punch, Bartolomeo, Lucy and Muchi, Appou Navy, Luffy vs Chinjao, Rebecca water dancing, Cavendish and Hakuba, Diamante, Burguess Hadou Elbow and finally the Dragon Breath and Sabo eating the fruit and ending it with a Hiken.
And all of that while other things were happening at that time and after the tournament a ton of characters still were relevant, and are still now.

Yep, a lot of people, normally the people that complain about anything to seem like they are expert critics, complained about the amount of characters, even though Oda made sure to introduce them a ton of times and each time in a different way to make them stick in your head and know that they were relevant, and called them fodder due to the structure of the tournment, even though a 1vs1 format make the same number of fodder characters, but it takes longer to go into all the fodders(Like how Yu Yu Hakusho dark tournament took 9 volumes of going from fodder to fodder with each of them getting their little time of limelight and then disappearing for ever).

People also complained about other things, it seems like with One Piece people search for things to complain and to say how before it was so much better, but you go to before(as soon as Water 7, Skypiea and even Alabasta) and you can also find a ton of this so called "expert critics" also complaining a ton about those arcs.

Still one of the best tournaments ever made. Though I would like some more chapters were added in some parts. While people were complaining of how long things were going; they are always complaining about this, they can't enjoy what is happening, they always want to see the next epic stuff, and unfortunately(or fotunately) One Piece as always a ton of future epic things set for the future.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 9, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 9, 2017 ---

You forgot Inoue Takehiko, you know the guy with 2.5M for Slam Dunk and 1.83M for Vagabond. And I believe 1M(or a little more) with Real.

Nope, it seems it didn't got a huge 1st print numbers. Well by huge I mean higher than 1.5 Million. Also it only got the anime when the manga was almost ending. Is possible that the huge sales, happened only after the anime and so in prints after the 1st.

Basically like Death Note.

Why call them "expert critics"? Is One Piece not allowed to be criticized?

 

[Leoat12]

Why call them "expert critics"? Is One Piece not allowed to be criticized?

He was being ironic because people complain without giving any reason. Dressrosa, for example, I only see people saying that "Dressrosa is too long" but it is not argument for anything, long things can also be great and Dressrosa was great, I didn't have any complain along the arc. It sounds to me that they complain for the sake of complaining.

 

[De La Croissant]

My problem with Dressrosa is not necessarily the duration, but the excess of subplots. We see a bit of X (cut) now we see a bit of Y (cut) now we see a bit of Z (cut) now we see a little more of X (cut) now we see a bit of R (cut) then we go back to see a little bit of Y... This hurts the pace. Individually, it's cool, because the humor, the new information and the characters are cool, but as a whole it's tiring as hell, especially if read weekly.

 

[ChocoBar9]

Why call them "expert critics"? Is One Piece not allowed to be criticized?

That's exactly what he's saying. Even a significant portion of the fanbase aren't too thrilled about Dressarosa.

He was being ironic because people complain without giving any reason. Dressrosa, for example, I only see people saying that "Dressrosa is too long" but it is not argument for anything, long things can also be great and Dressrosa was great, I didn't have any complain along the arc. It sounds to me that they complain for the sake of complaining.

Dressrosa has a lot more problems than it being long you can't just say people's arguments are invalid because you don't agree with them.

 

[jagman1x3]

My problem with Dressrosa is not necessarily the duration, but the excess of subplots. We see a bit of X (cut) now we see a bit of Y (cut) now we see a bit of Z (cut) now we see a little more of X (cut) now we see a bit of R (cut) then we go back to see a little bit of Y... This hurts the pace. Individually, it's cool, because the humor, the new information and the characters are cool, but as a whole it's tiring as hell, especially if read weekly.

This was honestly what made me finally give up and drop One Piece. Also they kept referencing old stuff and characters I'd forgotten about years ago, let alone not being able to remember what happened last week.

 

[xAsum0x]

This was honestly what made me finally give up and drop One Piece. Also they kept referencing old stuff and characters I'd forgotten about years ago, let alone not being able to remember what happened last week.

Not trying to start an argument but I have no idea how you can read and experience 700+ chapters of OP and then drop it over something minor like that.

 

[jagman1x3]

Not trying to start an argument but I have no idea how you can read and experience 700+ chapters of OP and then drop it over something minor like that.

I think I worded that really poorly but I dropped it because that arc was pretty much impossible for me to understand what was going on reading it weekly, and then I realized I had no idea who a bunch of important characters even were anymore and the only way to know what was going on would be to read the entire series again and I just don't care enough to do that. Dressrosa specifically was just the last straw since I couldn't even enjoy that single arc in isolation.
Had the same problem with HxH when it came back, and probably will also World Trigger when that comes off hiatus although that one I actually do like enough to have reread it once already.
Basically my memory kind of sucks for weekly series, OP is probably not the best thing to be reading if that's the case.