Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2017] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[xAsum0x]

She can't aid a male character in their development. Fixed.
We know what is going on here, people nowadays thinks it is an insult to have a girl below a boy in any moment in the story. She cannot help a boy, she has to ascend in the story without help of any boy. That's what they mean as "good representation".

How was she below Kirishima in this situation? She did something in which he couldn't do, which was sacrifice herself to save others, which like I said aided his development. That's the whole cause of it, because she was better than him lol. Unless I'm not understanding what theyre saying

 

[Leoat12]

How was she below Kirishima in this situation? She did something in which he couldn't do, which was sacrifice herself to save others, which like I said aided his development. That's the whole cause of it, because she was better than him lol. Unless I'm not understanding what theyre saying

But it was not her development, it was him. He was the focal point, she looks better than him for sure, but the point of view was not hers.

 

[ChocoBar9]

Though I'm not happy that Ochaka, the female lead, didnt do much besides being the loveinterest of Deku.(And yeah, I know she made up her mind about that before, but since then she still didnt really do much to prove herself in my eyes).

Well there was her big moment Sports Festival which shake the foundation of her character which had nothing to do with Deku really that's pretty much been her drive through the manga is to improve herself.

Though it also needs to mention, that a female character having a crush is not a bad thing; It's bad if that is her entire character. That's why I dont mind, for example, that Noelle has a crush on Asta(but why Asta, though?XP), because she has still more personality beyond that. She is overall a decent female character(and she'd be a better protagonist than Asta, too).

Noelle wasn't that great of a character before she fell for Asta so it didn't really ruin her. Its best to say that she only stands out because everyone in her manga is so unremarkable

Funny enough, though I've complained about Kishimoto before, I've also enjoyed Sarada as a character, in her spin off manga. I guess, trying to write a "daughter" made it easier for Kishimoto to write her. Many shounen mangaka seem to struggle to write decent women in their work. Especially Ohba/Obata is really, REALLY bad regarding this.
I think they all should take George R. R. Martins advice to heart: Considering women as people.

Yeah I forgot about them, Kishi just comes off as incompetent but the way Ohba treats his female character makes him comes off as sexist Misa really is the worst character in Death Note and feels like an inclusion made by their editor just to have a cute girl in the manga and we all know about how Bakuman handled its female characters and if Takagi really is suppose to represent Ohba then it only strengthens the previous statement.

I don't want to go into comparisons here but I'll comment anyway. When people ask for female representation in content they're looking to hand out participation trophies. The goal is an active character. Active doesn't mean doing bullshit plot stuff, it mean making decisions and changing as a person.

This right here is the definition of bad representation. Existing as an accessory to a male character's development.

Congrats you literally just called Kaoru and Kenshin's development a bad representation when it served to improve both of their characters in the process through the course of the manga. That being said Mina's inclusion in the flashback only just serve to compare where both of them stood in regards to how they were when they were in middle school and how far he had changed which was through his own effort and the words of Crimson Riot, she wasn't used as an anchor for his character development.

 

[Mawara]

She can't aid a male character in their development. Fixed.
We know what is going on here, people nowadays thinks it is an insult to have a girl below a boy in any moment in the story. She cannot help a boy, she has to ascend in the story without help of any boy. That's what they mean as "good representation".

Don't act like this and don't do this. The reason why so are many complaining, and you know why, is for the tiresome fact, that many women in shounen manga will never be more than a damsel in distress, or a loveinterest. But most times both. And if that actually happens, why shouldnt we complain? That's ludicous.
Also, another reason why we're complaining, because the idea that a woman is more than a loveinterst or a damsel, seems too alien for some people. So alien at least, that the idea to complain about it, is disregarded and shouldnt even be considered by some.

I get, why this happens in shounen manga, and perfect representation in an entire medium is impossible, but that seemingly half of humanity gets regularly presented as "things" is NOT a pleasant feeling.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 17, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 17, 2017 ---

Well there was her big moment Sports Festival which shake the foundation of her character which had nothing to do with Deku really that's pretty much been her drive through the manga is to improve herself.

The issue that she is mostly presented as a LoveInterest, is meant for the time, AFTER the sport festival. Because her fight with Bakugou was damn awesome. Too bad, that we didnt get anything else from her since then.

Noelle wasn't that great of a character before she fell for Asta so it didn't really ruin her. Its best to say that she only stands out because everyone in her manga is so unremarkable

I didnt mean to say, that having a crush would ruin her, or any female character-
It's OK, as long if there is more about the character, and I do enjoy her character.

Yeah I forgot about them, Kishi just comes off as incompetent but the way Ohba treats his female character makes him comes off as sexist Misa really is the worst character in Death Note and feels like an inclusion made by their editor just to have a cute girl in the manga and we all know about how Bakuman handled its female characters and if Takagi really is suppose to represent Ohba then it only strengthens the previous statement

But it's not just Misa! Light says women would be easily manipulated, and that could've been presented as a flaw of his, but the actual narrative of the manga confirmed his belief several times.
And there was this one manga, about holding trials in classrooms, where the 2 most important girls were a lolita and a dominatrix. Which is very uncomfortable, if one remember, that these were quite young. *shivers*

 

[shoyoboyo]

Yup, that was Gakyuu Hotei I believe. Elementary kids hold trials to solve childish cases. Coincidentally, that one was drawn by Obata as well.

 

[Leoat12]

Don't act like this and don't do this. The reason why so are many complaining, and you know why, is for the tiresome fact, that many women in shounen manga will never be more than a damsel in distress, or a loveinterest. But most times both. And if that actually happens, why shouldnt we complain? That's ludicous.
Also, another reason why we're complaining, because the idea that a woman is more than a loveinterst or a damsel, seems too alien for some people. So alien at least, that the idea to complain about it, is disregarded and shouldnt even be considered by some.

I get, why this happens in shounen manga, and perfect representation in an entire medium is impossible, but that seemingly half of humanity gets regularly presented as "things" is NOT a pleasant feeling.

Do you really understand why it happens in shounen manga? Because if you understood, you wouldn't be complaining, I believe. Shounen manga are aimed to boys, boys likes seeing their heroes on mangas having girls falling for them, they like to see the heroes saving girls, it is a boys thing, we like to protect what we love, we feel good, we identify with such things. I think you don't understand boy's mentality. We can say that it is sexism all you want, but we can't deny that we identify with such situations. Courage, pride, heroism, see our heroes doing such things is what makes us read battle shounen. The main character has to be a boy and, as such, the girls will be side characters, it will not change, no matter what you say. If you are not satisfied, you should look for another demography and genre, this is not the place for you.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 17, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 17, 2017 ---

Shounen manga is not synonym of "everything is possible" genre, it has its characteristics that makes shounen manga shounen manga, they cannot be changed, otherwise it will cease to be shounen manga.

 

[razerxs]

Does a character's parents exist as "accessories" to a character's development? How about their friends? Their inspirations?

Yes. Very literally yes.

They are not characters unless they are making a choice or acting on an emotion.

Otherwise they're just a interchangeable prop. A plot device and not a person.

How was she below Kirishima in this situation? She did something in which he couldn't do, which was sacrifice herself to save others, which like I said aided his development. That's the whole cause of it, because she was better than him lol. Unless I'm not understanding what theyre saying

Mina's inclusion in the flashback only just serve to compare where both of them stood

The question isn't whether she's competent or important, it's whether she's a character. Inspirations and comparisons are objects the same way damsels and fridged lovers are objects.

 

[Mawara]

@Edit: @Leoat12: Won't answer to your post, because that was not what I've said or meant & we clearly talking past one another.

Actual post:
I guess, we can let this discussion end, because I think at this point, it is made clear, what several people is bothering about several shounen manga. And I doubt, that the few people who disagreed with the complaints, meant that women should be treated as damsels and loveinterests, but it's just a thing, which belongs to shounen manga, sadly, and won't change so easily.

But before I would say good bye to this discusson, I want to praiseThe Promised Neverland, because it has a excellent presentation of its female characters. Not just because of having a girl as a protagonist, but because several of the most important characters are women with their own agendas und goals: Isabelle, Krone, Gilda and Mujica/Musica.
No, I don't say that's how all the other shounen manga should be, but it's nice to see someone doing something different and succeeding doing so, which deserves respect.

 

[xAsum0x]

Yes. Very literally yes.

They are not characters unless they are making a choice or acting on an emotion.

Otherwise they're just a interchangeable prop. A plot device and not a person.




The question isn't whether she's competent or important, it's whether she's a character. Inspirations and comparisons are objects the same way damsels and fridged lovers are objects.

You lost me. Now you're saying she's not a character? Inspirations and comparisons are objects? I do not understand your point anymore. If you're arguing whether or not she's a good character, she hasn't done much significantly in the story, but she has had cool moments of shine in the manga, plenty of them really. She'll no doubt have an important role, just like most of Class 1-A, but Jesus people overreact to this. Just because a character doesn't get to do something at a current situation doesn't mean they're gonna be forever ignored.

 

[ChocoBar9]

The question isn't whether she's competent or important, it's whether she's a character. Inspirations and comparisons are objects the same way damsels and fridged lovers are objects.

Wait so her deciding on her own to save those people doesn't make her a character because she's being compared to Kirishima

 

[Mammo]

Yup, that was Gakyuu Hotei I believe. Elementary kids hold trials to solve childish cases. Coincidentally, that one was drawn by Obata as well.

I will never understand why they team the writer with Obata

all his oneshots which he both wrote and illustrated were perfectly fine

his 006 oneshot, his dinosaurs king oneshot, his Gakyuu Hotei pilot oneshot were alright

Spoiler

I hope he will do his next series alone

 

[savethecat]

I will never understand why they team the writer with Obata

all his oneshots which he both wrote and illustrated were perfectly fine

his 006 oneshot, his dinosaurs king oneshot, his Gakyuu Hotei pilot oneshot were alright

Spoiler

I hope he will do his next series alone

Wow I actually like his art style

 

[TyVip]

I just want a series that i can get HYPE again every week.

 

[RafaFedKilla]

I will never understand why they team the writer with Obata

all his oneshots which he both wrote and illustrated were perfectly fine

his 006 oneshot, his dinosaurs king oneshot, his Gakyuu Hotei pilot oneshot were alright

Spoiler

I hope he will do his next series alone

I haven't seen any of his oneshots, but that 006 preview pic looks pretty schway.

 

[Leoat12]

I just want a series that i can get HYPE again every week.

Have you ever tried One Piece?
One Piece is a hype machine, I get excited every week, something that no series can do. Shokugeki no Soma and My Hero Academia has been pretty exciting as well.

 

[razerxs]

If you're arguing whether or not she's a good character, she hasn't done much significantly in the story, but she has had cool moments of shine in the manga, plenty of them really.

This is probably the main misconception. No one's asking for cool moments. That's no different from fanservice.

Y'all brought her up as an example of a good female character when she's barely 2 dimensional. As of yet, she's just background.

Wait so her deciding on her own to save those people doesn't make her a character because she's being compared to Kirishima

Yes. It's not even her decision because it's just for the sake of the plot: an example designed for Kirishima.

It doesn't matter what she did because it doesn't matter who was in that flashback.

It's not bad writing and I'm not calling it sexism. It's just not representation.

 

[WyldViolet]

I just want a series that i can get HYPE again every week.

It's sad.
Right now in jump I get hyped over Neverland and Sumo. Sometimes Robot x Lazerbeam, One Piece and Yuragi (rip shoodan). I want a battle series to hype over damn it.
MHA is losing me, Kimetsu is simply there tbh, Black Clover and Dr. Stone I'm not fond of.
The only other weekly non Jump shonen series I feel legitimately hyped for every week now are Beastars and To You, The Immortal, neither of which are really battle series (at least not atm). Helck is kind of meh now and near ending.

 

[ChocoBar9]

Yes. It's not even her decision because it's just for the sake of the plot: an example designed for Kirishima.

It doesn't matter what she did because it doesn't matter who was in that flashback.

It's not bad writing and I'm not calling it sexism. It's just not representation.

How the hell is it not her decision now? Are you just making crap up because people called you out on your bad logic or you legit have no idea what was the point of the flashback.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 17, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 17, 2017 ---

It's sad.
Right now in jump I get hyped over Neverland and Sumo. Sometimes Robot x Lazerbeam, One Piece and Yuragi (rip shoodan). I want a battle series to hype over damn it.
MHA is losing me, Kimetsu is simply there tbh, Black Clover and Dr. Stone I'm not fond of.
The only other weekly non Jump shonen series I feel legitimately hyped for every week now are Beastars and To You, The Immortal, neither of which are really battle series (at least not atm). Helck is kind of meh now and near ending.

Yes I too also gets hyped over nothing happening each chapter.

 

[WyldViolet]

How the hell is it not her decision now? Are you just making crap up because people called you out on your bad logic or you legit have no idea what was the point of the flashback.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 17, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 17, 2017 ---

Yes I too also gets hyped over nothing happening each chapter.

I'm digging the world building and feelings of tense exploration, and giving us time to build atmosphere and the character vibes.
I wouldn't say nothing is happening at all. I've honestly been enjoying this post-escape stuff more than the stuff in the orphanage. I have no idea whats gonna happen next so every week is hype.

 

[ChocoBar9]

This is probably the main misconception. No one's asking for cool moments. That's no different from fanservice.

Y'all brought her up as an example of a good female character when she's barely 2 dimensional. As of yet, she's just background.

Nobody even said this to begin with.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 17, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 17, 2017 ---

I'm digging the world building and feelings of tense exploration, and giving us time to build atmosphere and the character vibes.
I wouldn't say nothing is happening at all. I've honestly been enjoying this post-escape stuff more than the stuff in the orphanage. I have no idea whats gonna happen next so every week is hype.

Its largely just been exposition and little to no action and since we know the children aren't going to be dying any time soon there's no ideal threat to be had at least not at the moment.