Discussion Goku vs Superman

[KnightLancer]

Guess you don't have any common sense? Master Roshi with a power level of 312 was able to INSTANTLY destroy the moon. Goku later with a power level in the thousands shot a Kamehameha at Radditz who OUTRAN the attack. Think...

Who cares about the damn math.........

Goku as a child in early Dragonball was able to move "FASTER" than lightning. Goku only got stronger as the series went on and immediately broke the light barrier later on. Any moron wit half a brain cell can see that.

Do you have any proof of any FTL speed besides power levels, the extremely broad "they got stronger" argument, and claiming that ki blasts are light/are as fast as light/are faster than light when there are so many instances of them not showing a level of speed anywhere close to light? And it's incredible you claim that the ki blasts are faster than light, since when Raditz ran away from Goku's kamehameha (which he didn't even avoid, instead turning around to face it head on), all the combatants were and remained in more or less the same area where the fight began, whereas if Raditz actually was running at the speed of light, he would have at least ended up in another continent as opposed to staying in the same rather pleasant meadow surrounded by snowcapped mountains.

Who cares about the math? Rational people, it gives concrete levels of approximate speeds to compare, as opposed to "OMFG THIS GUY IS WAY FASTER YOU IDIOT, WTF WTF WTF UR STOOPID FOR THINKING THAT!!! LOLOLOL!"

Yakkon's absorption powers specifically absorbed light!!!! light cannot escape his sucktion powers!!!

DBZ= FTL fighting.

How the fuck does his power specifically being the power to absorb light prove DBZ characters fight at faster-than-light speeds? Besides, they didn't beat Yakkon by speed-blitzing him, they just let him absorb the energy until he exploded.

If you're gonna say that, than I can say just about EVERYONE who was on the Teen Titans, even Nightwing, was faster-than-light because they fought Dr. Light, a person with the power to manipulate, project, and absorb light.

But that's obviously not true.

Ah, and yes, thank you for starting with the direct personal attacks on other users. We're only that much closer to this devolving into a flame war, good work.

 

[Phenomenol]

Do you have any proof of any FTL speed besides power levels, the extremely broad "they got stronger" argument, and claiming that ki blasts are light/are as fast as light/are faster than light when there are so many instances of them not showing a level of speed anywhere close to light? Who cares about the math? Rational people, it gives concrete levels of approximate speeds to compare, as opposed to "OMFG THIS GUY IS WAY FASTER YOU IDIOT, WTF WTF WTF UR STOOPID FOR THINKING THAT!!! LOLOLOL!"

Really? Master Roshi blew up the moon in an instant, Piccolo blew it up again in an instant. DBZ characters dodge attacks like those all the damn time. Not too mention Goku as a CHILD was "FASTER than lightning!!!" Commom sense that they have FTL reflexes. Doean't take math to figure that out

How the fuck does his power specifically being the power to absorb light prove DBZ characters fight at faster-than-light speeds? Besides, they didn't beat Yakkon by speed-blitzing him, they just let him absorb the energy until he exploded.

If you're gonna say that, than I can say just about EVERYONE who was on the Teen Titans, even Nightwing, was faster-than-light because they fought Dr. Light, a person with the power to manipulate, project, and absorb light.

But that's obviously not true.

Yakkon is similar to Blackbeard of One Piece who can absorb Energy/Light and even absorb the true users form!!!! A single beam of light cannot escape Yakkon's absorption powers. That is having the propeties of a Black hole, Common sense fool.

 

[KnightLancer]

Really? Master Roshi blew up the moon in an instant, Piccolo blew it up again in an instant. DBZ characters dodge attacks like those all the damn time. Not too mention Goku as a CHILD was "FASTER than lightning!!!" Commom sense that they have FTL reflexes. Doean't take math to figure that out

So...you still have no actual speed feats, using energy blasts that vary speed wildly to try and prove your point. And than calling us idiots and fools if we don't agree with you.

Common sense does not say that they have faster-than-light reflexes. Common sense says they have faster-than-lightning reflexes, since, as you say, Goku was trained to be faster than lightning. You still don't have any concrete speed feats putting Goku at or above light speed. The interview you posted was a fake, and when we pointed it out, you tried to basically call us stupid and say that "If it's not proven fake than it's REAL!" (a logical fallacy in itself).

The dodging of ki blasts hardly counts, since they don't seem to have any sort of set speed. At one point they reach moons in a matter of seconds, at others Trunks and Goten are firing off manipulable blasts that are followed by just about everyone watching the Tenkaiichi Budokai's children's division.

Yakkon is similar to Blackbeard of One Piece who can absorb Energy/Light and even absorb the true users form!!!! A single beam of light cannot escape Yakkon's absorption powers. That is having the propeties of a Black hole, Common sense fool.

1) You're not Albel Nox.

2) Energy absorption does not = Properties of a black hole.

Black hole = Ridiculous amounts of gravitic pull, so much so that even light cannot escape. It is theorized large black holes are at the center of galaxies, holding them together. The power to absorb light/energy does not = black hole levels of gravity.

What it equals is...the power to absorb light and energy. That's it. That's the superpower.
And you'd reeeaaaally have to stretch it if you want to try and claim energy absorption = black hole.

 

[Phenomenol]

So...you still have no actual speed feats, using energy blasts that vary speed wildly to try and prove your point. And than calling us idiots and fools if we don't agree with you. Common sense does not say that they have faster-than-light reflexes. Common sense says they have faster-than-lightning reflexes, since, as you say, Goku was trained to be faster than lightning. You still don't have any concrete speed feats putting Goku at or above light speed. The interview you posted was a fake, and when we pointed it out, you tried to basically call us stupid and say that "If it's not proven fake than it's REAL!" (a logical fallacy in itself).

Those are speed feats you imbecile. I just told you ki blasts blowing up the moon instatnly and characters like Radditz are able to outrun them? Goku as a damn CHILD was "FASTER than lightning" but you want to be an ass and say that Goku NEVER increases/improves as the series went on? your the one with the fallacies. DBZ characters fight at FTL speeds.

1) You're not Albel Nox.

2) Energy absorption does not = Properties of a black hole.

Black hole = Ridiculous amounts of gravitic pull, so much so that even light cannot escape. It is theorized large black holes are at the center of galaxies, holding them together. The power to absorb light/energy does not = black hole levels of gravity.

What it equals is...the power to absorb light and energy. That's it. That's the superpower.
And you'd reeeaaaally have to stretch it if you want to try and claim energy absorption = black hole.

Nope, What is stated is that Yakkon is the LIGHT EATER!!! and a single beam of light cannot escape his absorption powers just like a Black hole. I am still waiting for you to disprove these facts.

 

[KnightLancer]

Those are speed feats you imbecile. I just told you ki blasts blowing up the moon instatnly and characters like Radditz are able to outrun them? Goku as a damn CHILD was "FASTER than lightning" but you want to be an ass and say that Goku NEVER increases/improves as the series went on? your the one with the fallacies. DBZ characters fight at FTL speeds.

Why thank you for that eloquent rebuttal Johnny Storm. Flame on!

1) When Raditz outran the ki blast, he didn't appear to be going anywhere near the speed of light. If he was, I doubt he'd even still be in Goku's field of vision, despite his aerial vantage point. If they really moved around at lightspeed, how is it that they never seem to travel very far when they fight? How is it that normal people can more or less watch their fights?

All you're saying is. Goku was really fast as a kid. He got a lot stronger. Now he's FTL.
You're using, basically two instances of a ki blast being used to blow up the moon. As opposed to all the many times that ki blasts have been fired and shown to not be at the speed of light. Ki blasts have no set speed. If we actually know how fast they move, then Goku's dodging of them would be verifiable speed feats. But we don't. Alright, so they can move fast enough to reach the moon in a rather short amount of time. But that doesn't mean every one of the shots fired at Goku were going at that speed. Hell, they often appeared to be going far far slower.

A baseball can be thrown at 100 miles per hour. Does that suddenly mean every baseball being thrown is being thrown at 100 miles per hour? No. Not every Ki blast goes fast enough to blow up the moon that quickly. Therefore, since the speed of a ki blast is an unknown variable, Goku's dodging, or Raditz's outrunning of one cannot be used as a concrete speed feat.

Nope, What is stated is that Yakkon is the LIGHT EATER!!! and a single beam of light cannot escape his absorption powers just like a Black hole. I am still waiting for you to disprove these facts.

I'm saying Yakkon does not have the extreme gravitic properties of a black hole.

He merely has the ability to absorb light, which does not conflict with what you're saying.

If Yakkon did have the extremely potent gravity of a black hole, the whole of the earth and the solar system should've been sucked right into him. But you know what? They didn't. Yakkon =/= Black hole.

His ability to absorb light may be absolute, but he is not the equivalent of a black hole.

And you still haven't explained at all how his ability to absorb light relates at all the the DBZer's fighting speed.

---

You still never explained how or why Goku would beat Tsunami-kami-sama, I think Ronson would be very interested in your explanation.

...Haha, very nice signature by the way. It's quite applicable to its wearer.

 

[Phenomenol]

1) When Raditz outran the ki blast, he didn't appear to be going anywhere near the speed of light. If he was, I doubt he'd even still be in Goku's field of vision, despite his aerial vantage point. If they really moved around at lightspeed, how is it that they never seem to travel very far when they fight? How is it that normal people can more or less watch their fights?

That's because it is fantasy! You actually think Toriyama is going to have his martial artist zip all around the world? That was a pretty dumb question, that is like me asking you to prove the SIZE of Dragonball's earth?

All you're saying is. Goku was really fast as a kid. He got a lot stronger. Now he's FTL.You're using, basically two instances of a ki blast being used to blow up the moon. As opposed to all the many times that ki blasts have been fired and shown to not be at the speed of light. Ki blasts have no set speed. If we actually know how fast they move, then Goku's dodging of them would be verifiable speed feats. But we don't. Alright, so they can move fast enough to reach the moon in a rather short amount of time. But that doesn't mean every one of the shots fired at Goku were going at that speed. Hell, they often appeared to be going far far slower.

Wrong, Goku or any other DBZ character dodging ki blasts (which are light) shows their FTL reflexes. Goku as a CHILD and crappy ass Mr. Popo ws faster than lightning and he only gets faster as the series went on. Common sense.

I'm saying Yakkon does not have the extreme gravitic properties of a black hole.

He merely has the ability to absorb light, which does not conflict with what you're saying.

If Yakkon did have the extremely potent gravity of a black hole, the whole of the earth and most of the solar system should've been sucked right into him. But you know what? They didn't. Yakkon =/= Black hole.

His ability to absorb light may be absolute, but he is not the equivalent of a black hole.

So what's your point? The physics don't work?.....Why doesn't Juggernaut or the Hulk knock the damn planet of it's AXIS when ever they throw down? Or how about Hawkman hitting Superman with the SUPPOSED weight of the earth? Yet I didn't see Supes flying through the damn planet tearing a huge hole in it. There is a reason why Comic writers throw a few things out whenever their is a super battle going on because it would KILL everyone...common sense.

You completely contradicted the Manga/Anime because yakkon has the ability of the Black Hole, light and energy cannot escape his absorption!!! i

DBZ =FTL speeds.

 

[The Boff]

i love this thread, its full of really thought out posts and good arguments but lately i see that its getting a little heated...
and i dont want that. neither do those that have started this "almost flamewar"

so shape up and go back to the posts i like to read or i will have this thread locked up and i might deal out some 3 day bans as well.

later dudes!

 

[Roanapur]

*wants to get a battle thread subforum made at some point*

The flames aren't helping. ><

You actually think Toriyama is going to have his martial artist zip all around the world?

Well.... they have, and it always took them quite some time to do it.

Wrong, Goku or any other DBZ character dodging ki blasts (which are light) shows their FTL reflexes. Goku as a CHILD and crappy ass Mr. Popo ws faster than lightning and he only gets faster as the series went on. Common sense.

As it's been stated, light is 3,600x faster than lightning.

Secondly, even if DBZ ki attacks consistently moved at light speed, it doesn't mean that the characters can move or fight at that speed. Not to mention that there have been many ki attacks that seemingly have barely moved 50mph.

Lastly, you don't need to be faster than a projectile to dodge it. Good coordination and reflexes can allow you to anticipate where a projectile is coming from and act accordingly before it's even thrown.

You completely contradicted the Manga/Anime because yakkon has the ability of the Black Hole, light and energy cannot escape his absorption!!!

Just answer this, was it ever stated or shown that Yakkon's ability could absorb any type matter other than light?

 

[KnightLancer]

Actually, Superman regular punches foes and has been punched incredibly far distances in fights all the time, such as punching Lobo into the stratosphere, punching Orion to China from the US, and getting punched through the earth by Bizarro. He's also been punched from the earth to the moon, no worse for the wear...

And Yakkon can only absorb light and energy. Why? Because THAT'S HIS SPECIFIC POWER.

He does NOT have the ability to suck in matter like a black hole.

 

[Phenomenol]

><Well.... they have, and it always took them quite some time to do it.

No, DBZ does not fight by flying all over the place.

As it's been stated, light is 3,600x faster than lightning.

Secondly, even if DBZ ki attacks consistently moved at light speed, it doesn't mean that the characters can move or fight at that speed. Not to mention that there have been many ki attacks that seemingly have barely moved 50mph.

Lastly, you don't need to be faster than a projectile to dodge it. Good coordination and reflexes can allow you to anticipate where a projectile is coming from and act accordingly before it's even thrown.

Goku after the 22nd tournament was trained by Mr. Popo to move "FASTER" than lightning. Not lightning speed. Goku ONLY improves from that point on, common sense.

DBZ characters dodge ki blasts all the time with their reflexes, which means their reflexes are FTL. Hell, Freeza's Beam cannon was FASTER than light (light could not reflect off of it), non of the Z-warriors could see the beam.

Just answer this, was it ever stated or shown that Yakkon's ability could absorb any type matter other than light?

No, it only states and shows Yakkon absorbing light and Energy. He tried to absorb Goku to eat him as well but failed.

And Yakkon can only absorb light and energy. Why? Because THAT'S HIS SPECIFIC POWER. He does NOT have the ability to suck in matter like a black hole.

Then why did Yakkon try to Absorb and eat Goku?

 

[KnightLancer]

Yakkon was absorbing Goku's ENERGY.

Yakkon died because the fatal flaw in his power was that he had a maximum limit, which Goku realized and then basically fed Yakkon to death.

 

[Phenomenol]

Yes....and?

 

[KnightLancer]

He was not trying to absorb him physically, only the light energy radiating from his SSJ ki aura!

Yakkon does not have the property of a black hole to suck in everything around him, only LIGHT. Because he is a LIGHT EATING MONSTER. THAT ABSORBS LIGHT.

LIGHT.

NOT MATTER.

LIGHT and LIGHT ONLY.

Yakkon therefore =/= Black hole, because Black holes suck in EVERYTHING, light included, and Yakkon only sucks up LIGHT.

 

[Roanapur]

Goku after the 22nd tournament was trained by Mr. Popo to move "FASTER" than lightning. Not lightning speed. Goku ONLY improves from that point on, common sense.

But faster than lightning does not equal light speed.

That's my point.

DBZ characters dodge ki blasts all the time with their reflexes, which means their reflexes are FTL.

As I was saying....

Lastly, you don't need to be faster than a projectile to dodge it. Good coordination and reflexes can allow you to anticipate where a projectile is coming from and act accordingly before it's even thrown.

Hell, Freeza's Beam cannon was FASTER than light (light could not reflect off of it), non of the Z-warriors could see the beam.

That's Freeza's Death Beam.

but..... Freeza's Death Beam =/= every other character's slow ki blasts

Yes....and?

That means that Goku's body was never in any danger of getting absorbed, and that him "escaping" was merely just him overpowering the technique, and not him using FTL speed to escape.

 

[Phenomenol]

But faster than lightning does not equal light speed.

That's my point.

Here is my point. Goku was "FASTER" than lightning as a child in early Dragonball, he got more powerful as the series went on. Which means he broke the light barrier later in his career.

As I was saying....Lastly, you don't need to be faster than a projectile to dodge it. Good coordination and reflexes can allow you to anticipate where a projectile is coming from and act accordingly before it's even thrown.

No, you need FTL reactions to even dodge a beam of light coming at you, period.

That's Freeza's Death Beam. but..... Freeza's Death Beam =/= every other character's slow ki blasts

That just shows that that those blasts are and DBZ characters are FTL!!! Thanks.

That means that Goku's body was never in any danger of getting absorbed, and that him "escaping" was merely just him overpowering the technique, and not him using FTL speed to escape.

Possibly. Cause Yakkon was stated to only go after light and energy, not Goku himself. I just rechecked it.

 

[Roanapur]

Here is my point. Goku was "FASTER" than lightning as a child in early Dragonball, he got more powerful as the series went on. Which means he broke the light barrier later in his career.

Can you cite examples of this?

No, you need FTL reactions to even dodge a beam of light coming at you, period.

Like I said before, which you have yet to refute....

Lastly, you don't need to be faster than a projectile to dodge it. Good coordination and reflexes can allow you to anticipate where a projectile is coming from and act accordingly before it's even thrown.

Also, can you cite examples of ki attacks that move at light speed?

That just shows that that those blasts are and DBZ characters are FTL!!! Thanks.

That's Freeza's Death Beam, which you have yet to truly prove moves FTL.

However, Freeza is not Goku, regardless of whether or not that the Death Beam could move FTL.

 

[Phenomenol]

Can you cite examples of this?

Yeah, Goku gets more powerful as the series goes on, that is the example.

Like I said before, which you have yet to refute....

Lastly, you don't need to be faster than a projectile to dodge it. Good coordination and reflexes can allow you to anticipate where a projectile is coming from and act accordingly before it's even thrown.

Also, can you cite examples of ki attacks that move at light speed?

DBZ has reflexes that dodge and react Faster than Ki blasts! That is shown in the manga/Anime.

That's Freeza's Death Beam, which you have yet to truly prove moves FTL.

However, Freeza is not Goku, regardless of whether or not that the Death Beam could move FTL.

LOL, Freeza's Death Beam was so fast that light itself could not reflect off of it! Neither could light reflect Freeza's movements and Goku BLOCKED fought Freeza at his level.

DBZ=FTL fighting speeds.

 

[KnightLancer]

Here is my point. Goku was "FASTER" than lightning as a child in early Dragonball, he got more powerful as the series went on. Which means he broke the light barrier later in his career.

How the hell do you reach that conclusion?

Once again, all you're saying is:

Goku was fast.

He got faster.

Now he's FTL.

That isn't proof.

No, you need FTL reactions to even dodge a beam of light coming at you, period.

Really? So I guess everyone that has ever dodged a bullet has bullet-time reflexes as opposed to say, seeing where the guy is pointing his gun (or hand concerning ki blasts)
and dodging accordingly?

That just shows that that those blasts are and DBZ characters are FTL!!! Thanks.

How does it prove they have FTL reflexes when you just said no one could see it coming?

Hell, Freeza's Beam cannon was FASTER than light (light could not reflect off of it), non of the Z-warriors could see the beam.

Possibly. Cause Yakkon was stated to only go after light and energy, not Goku himself. I just rechecked it.

...Ugh...

LOL, Freeza's Death Beam was so fast that light itself could not reflect off of it! Neither could light reflect Freeza's movements and Goku BLOCKED fought Freeza at his level.

DBZ=FTL fighting speeds.

What, so now Ki Blasts aren't light? Before you said they were! Stop contradicting yourself man!

2. Ki blasts are faster than light(Ki blasts ARE light)!.

 

[Phenomenol]

How the hell do you reach that conclusion?

Once again, all you're saying is:

Goku was fast.

He got faster.

Now he's FTL.

That isn't proof.

That is common sense! Unless your telling me that Goku didn't get any faster as the series went on?

Really? So I guess everyone that has ever dodged a bullet has bullet-time reflexes as opposed to say, seeing where the guy is pointing his gun (or hand concerning ki blasts) and dodging accordingly?

That is not the same thing. Terrible analogy. They use ACTUAL speed to dodge attacks/Ki blasts.

How does it prove they have FTL reflexes when you just said no one could see it coming?


..Ugh...




What, so now Ki Blasts aren't light? Before you said they were! Stop contradicting yourself man!

1. Freeza's death beam and movements was so fast LIGHT could not reflect off of it! Goku was able to follow and fight freeza because he to is FTL!!!

Ki blasts are light! Otherwise Yakkon would not been able t oabsorb it.

 

[KnightLancer]

Common sense is not proof. Yes they got faster, but we don't know how much faster. You can't just claim they're FTL by saying "it's common sense!"

Death beam is a ki blast, and ki blasts are light, so how the hell would the death beam be faster than light if it IS light? You're saying light can be reflected off of...more light now?

They can't go faster-than-light if they ARE light. Jeez...