Discussion Goku vs Superman

[mrcongojack]

This is the last I'll post in this thread because I think I'm out of things to add. Superman is not really my favorite superhero. He's got way too many powers if you ask me. Which just happens to be the same reason I didn't like latter seasons of DBZ and why I despised GT.

For the sake of this debate I'll assume both Superman and Goku are at the fullest level of power they can be at. That makes it what, ssj 3 or 4 for Goku and Superman is in the presence of a yellow sun.

In terms of speed I think Superman has the advantage. At the height of his power he is able to travel 4 times light speed. Goku, on the other hand, is limited in terms of speed to well within "legal" speeds (as in not breaking any laws of physics, which Superman would have to to travel at such speeds). While Goku does have Instant Transmission that doesn't necessarily translate into super speeds - the technique requires a lot of time and concentration for Goku, something he wouldn't have during a fight with the man of steel.

When it comes to martial arts, Goku is the clear winner. He has had plenty of training while Superman (who may have had some training) has mainly relied on his super strength, speed, and other powers.

In terms of strength Superman is once again the victor. He has been able to move planets while Goku is "limited" (if you can call lifting a bus "limited") to weight much less than that of a sizable planet. Actually, I'm calling this one a tie. I suppose with an intense burst of energy Goku would conceivably be able to move a planet.

When it comes to raw power the winner is Goku. the amount of raw energy he is able to store is incredibly impressive, whereas Superman mainly relies on the sun for his power.

The most durable of the two heroes is definitely Superman. For an easy method of comparison, I just compared the number of times each character died in continuity. Superman-1. Goku-2 or 3.

It is my opinion that Superman would be the clear victor in a battle royale between the two titans. Superman outclasses Goku in speed and durability, the two factors I think would be the most important in this battle. This fight wouldn't be so much of a fight as it would be a collision - martial arts and techniques would quickly be set aside for epic charges and and massive blasts of energy.

The major problem in trying to compare the two was the different styles of comics they appeared in and the way the two attained their powers. Goku gained his incredible strength through intense training and a bit of luck. Superman's powers were his birthright. Villains in Dragonball use martial arts and massive ki balls to terrorize the universe while Superman's foes usually just use brute strength or advanced technology to accomplish their goals.

Well, that's my two cents on the topic. I can honestly say I can think of nothing else to add.

 

[Roanapur]

Fair Do'z but if this is post crisis superman were talking about (still confused) from what i read on another forum, to go 4x speed of light he used a boom tube or something like that. And there speed in DragonBall Z is not measured in long distance its short, i'll admit hands down, when it comes to races and flying long distance superman out weighs Goku but in close combat Goku's punches and kicks far out weigh superman. My proof is the training in which Goku has done. As in strapped weights to arms and legs and trained under some serious gravity.

The light speed aspect of Superman's ability would allow him to hit Goku multiple times, fly out of danger before Goku tries to counter, fly back in to attack, fly back out of danger, fly back into attack, fly back out of danger, all before Goku would be able to react.

Goku has been hit multiple times by characters that don't move anywhere close to Superman's speed, so there's no reason to believe that he would be able to effectively avoid or counter Supes' attacks.

And just incase your implying i don't disconnect from my fan bias, i have. It's just i know little about this superman in which is been used.

I imply nothing.

I say what I mean and mean what I say.

Not to sound harsh with this but, if it hasn't happened it can't be used. There is no proof in this matter so no one can say he punches or kicks this fast. I suppose it'd be the same as me saying Goku is light speed. (I'm not trying to sound rude on this)

What? Superman does have martial arts training, and he can move FTL. That says it all.

In the first part of this same post, I explain how Superman's superior speed would help in this fight.

 

[Paper]

hm... if we ever want this thing to be settled we'll need to set a specific playing field and conditions.

lets have both characters in their best, like goku in SS4 after eating a few of them beans...same goes for superman..well he doesn't really get much "upgrades"....

stage: a planet like planet nemic...that way we have all sorts of terrain.

rules: strictly one on one, no buggers on the side. no items (like dragon balls...or red kryptonite)

 

[~Shin~]

true...it has been proven that superman is a biitch without the sun... all goku has to do is bring him to a darkass place and duke it out with him there...in a way i'm really for goku since i'm a bigger fan of DBZ than i am of superman (i've always liked..you guessed it..batman better).

oh god...lol...
scene: *goku grabs superman and teleports him to a really dark place* goku says- WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW?

sorry...i couldn't help it....

Oh right, Goku instantly figures out Superman's weakness just because you want him to?

If we go by that logic, Superman gets some heart virus and kill Goku with it.

 

[Paper]

you didn't bother reading everything didn't you? i was talking to someone else when i said that, and i've made it quite clear that I GREW UP ON BOTH HEROES. the fact that i chose to stay neutral and not post anything as a form of rebuttal against pro-superman posts.

perhaps it's because you don't really know how i talk (i try to be funny at times and fail miserably), but please read all the other posts before making a quick judgement.

i know how to settle out little hero problem....let them duke it out....ina 10 round rock-paper-scissor match! lets see who lady luck will smile upon.

 

[ronson]

Ok, i'm going to start again because it is getting no where. Bear in mind this is post-crisis superman which ibelieve were talking about.

What? Superman does have martial arts training, and he can move FTL. That says it all.

In the first part of this same post, I explain how Superman's superior speed would help in this fight.

You fail to mention that supermans martial arts training is only brief. Whereas Goku has trained all his life. There is a big difference there. So you nor anyone else can say Goku's martial arts is inferior to supermans. Not only that Superman doesn't apply them to fights, he uses direct brute force. (Partially taken from another forum)


You brought this on your self, the Respect Therad says he moves around 5x the speed of light.

Ok, now for the goodies:

Speed of light: 299 792 458 m / s

Goku in Namek = 300,000,000m/s, faster than (stated by Burter).

SSJ1:

50x Base Form Goku = 15.000.000.000m/s (this is already faster than Supes at his best).

Do you want me to go on onto SSJ3 or is this enough to PROOVE Goku is faster?

The above two are taken from another forum about Goku been equal to and faster than the speed of light.

There was going to be more but my heads pounding...i'll post more later (after some research and you tell me which supermans been used)

 

[KnightLancer]

Ok, i'm going to start again because it is getting no where. Bear in mind this is post-crisis superman which ibelieve were talking about.



You fail to mention that supermans martial arts training is only brief. Whereas Goku has trained all his life. There is a big difference there. So you nor anyone else can say Goku's martial arts is inferior to supermans. Not only that Superman doesn't apply them to fights, he uses direct brute force. (Partially taken from another forum)


You brought this on your self, the Respect Therad says he moves around 5x the speed of light.

Ok, now for the goodies:

Speed of light: 299 792 458 m / s

Goku in Namek = 300,000,000m/s, faster than (stated by Burter).

SSJ1:

50x Base Form Goku = 15.000.000.000m/s (this is already faster than Supes at his best).

Do you want me to go on onto SSJ3 or is this enough to PROOVE Goku is faster?

The above two are taken from another forum about Goku been equal to and faster than the speed of light.

There was going to be more but my heads pounding...i'll post more later (after some research and you tell me which supermans been used)

You know, there is a reason that they more or less stopped ever mentioning direct number power levels beyond Frieza saga. In that:

A) They were completely arbitrary, and really only served to make people's scouters blow up.

B) No seriously, they were completely idiotic. No wonder Toriyama decided to do away with them the fastest he could.

Power levels don't show anything. Goku just doesn't have any solid feats to back up his faster than light claim. All that is shown in your post is numbers, absolutely arbitrary numbers, that do not prove anything.

Are the stat increases garnered from rises in power level linear? Exponential? Quadratic? We don't know! So even trying to use power levels as any form of argument is a waste of time. Akira Toriyama himself must've found that out after realizing he'd have to start making more and more ridiculous figures just to top old figures.

The only solid speed feat Goku really has, of moving long distances under his own power, without teleporting is traversing Snake way.
Snake Way is 1,000,000 km, or about 621,370 miles. Now he covered this distance in less than a day. Alright, so let's just say, for simplicity's sake, that he took 3 hours. A big jump from the almost 200 days he took to go to King Kai's planet the first time no?
That comes out to about...207,123 and 2/3 miles per hour. 3600 seconds in an hour, so now he was going at about 57.5 miles per second.

Pretty fast, pretty fast.

Still, he comes nowhere close to the 186,000 miles per second needed to reach lightspeed.

And is absolutely nowhere close to the minimum 4x lightspeed that Superman has reached.

It seems Burtur suffers from a case of speech hyperbole...

Considering when Goku first rushed in to rescue Gohan and Krillin from Racoom, Jeice, and Burtur, they could actually see him coming. Well, except for Racoom, who was looking the other way.

Now, we can safely assume Goku got there as fast he could, considering his son and one of his best friends were on the verge of dying. According to the calculations the other poster from another forum put up, Goku's top speed should've been around 708,430 kilometers per second, or about 440,197 miles per second. However, Goku took about 3 seconds just to get from where Burter and Jeice were to the point where he was spinning Racoom around like a top.
That's hardly even a mile, let alone the 1,300,000 miles Goku could've traversed according to the other poster from another forum.

Case in point: His theory is crap.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yujJBz1Fqyc
3:49 - Goku passes Burter and Jeice
3:52 - Goku passes Racoom

Hell, he was actually moving faster on snake way.

Of course, you could say that Goku wasn't trying to get there as quickly as possible. Of course, then you'd just be calling Goku a total dick.

 

[Phenomenol]

The light speed aspect of Superman's ability would allow him to hit Goku multiple times, fly out of danger before Goku tries to counter, fly back in to attack, fly back out of danger, fly back into attack, fly back out of danger, all before Goku would be able to react.

BULLOCKS! Superman does NOT fight at lightspeed he doesn't even fight at the speed of sound. Superman can only TRAVEL LINEAR at lightspeed.

Goku has been hit multiple times by characters that don't move anywhere close to Superman's speed, so there's no reason to believe that he would be able to effectively avoid or counter Supes' attacks.

DBZ characters FIGHT at lightspeed. As you can see that they dodge ki blasts (which are LIGHT) and they disapear and reappear at will! Beings who can sense lightyears and dimensions away can't even follow their movements. Not too mention Toriyama ALREADY said that DBZ moves at lightspeed.

What? Superman does have martial arts training, and he can move FTL. That says it all. In the first part of this same post, I explain how Superman's superior speed would help in this fight.

Nope, your post is wrong. Superman NEVER displays any martial arts against his opponents. he just throws punches and hits people with cars.

Goku beats Supes @#$ in NORMAL MODE (at the end of DBZ)! Curbstomp...

 

[ronson]

Been told to send you to another website in which i'm watching on the superman vs goku topic: http://www.moviecodec.com/topics/17280p566.html#msg992815

You don't need to register to post so if you want you could post there. It seems to have quite few people posting in it as well. And like yourself a good superman debater.

James

p.s. i haven't researched yet for another reply will do soon

 

[Phenomenol]

I registered and I am waiting my E-mail activation.

Tell you the truth a member is there that I already had smashed in th Naruto forums concerning this.

 

[ronson]

You don't have to register to post, just simply goto last page and fill in a name and the security code and type your message in at the bottom then click send.

 

[Phenomenol]

Done, Thanks!!!

 

[Roanapur]

BULLOCKS! Superman does NOT fight at lightspeed he doesn't even fight at the speed of sound. Superman can only TRAVEL LINEAR at lightspeed.

That's exactly what I was suggesting Superman can do.

He could fly in linearly, attack, fly out, fly in linearly, attack, etc...

DBZ characters FIGHT at lightspeed. As you can see that they dodge ki blasts (which are LIGHT)

......some of which move so slowly that they have enough time to stare in awe at them for multiple seconds, which is a far cry from the nanoseconds that it would take for a light speed attack to hit them.

and they disapear and reappear at will!

I've already explained that you only have to be moving at a few hundred miles an hour(or basically sound speed) to escape from someone's perception.

If you suggested to me that DBZ characters could meet and exceed the speed of sound, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. Suggesting that they could exceed light speed, however, is ridiculous......

Like I said before, at what point have we ever been led to believe that any DBZ character could move light speed?

If anyone in DBZ could move at the speed of light, why would it take so long for them to fly around Namek? Why did it take them so long to chase down the Androids? Why did chibi Trunks not reach his destination instantly when SSJ3 Goku distracted Majin Buu? Why have they struggled to reach their destinations in the series time and time again?

Beings who can sense lightyears and dimensions away can't even follow their movements. Not too mention Toriyama ALREADY said that DBZ moves at lightspeed.

Where was this?

Also, as I clearly explained above in this very post, Toriyama saying that they move light speed is very inconsistent with the events in his own manga.

Nope, your post is wrong. Superman NEVER displays any martial arts against his opponents. he just throws punches and hits people with cars.

When does Superman have to actually fight a martial artist that has strength and speed even close to being comparable to him?

Also, I know submission grappling and kickboxing, but if I get into a fight with someone considerably weaker and slower than me, am I going to bother to get fancy?

Nope.

I'm just going to hit him. Hard.

Same principle with Superman.

 

[KnightLancer]

I’m still not sure which superman there even using (they won’t tell me after asking several times (they must ignore that question))

and since we are using current comic book Superman for this fight,

Didn't tell you which Superman I was using? Jeez, are you some kinda idiot?

All the scans I posted were from post-crisis comic books.

And, I even said, we were using current comic book Superman.

And current is POST-CRISIS.

Jeez...

The issue with a lot of DBZ "speed feats" is that barely any of them have any sort of concrete time frame, or at least one where the approximate amount of time could be determined. The only real one is when he crossed Snake Way.
Power level speed calculations are more or less pulled from people's asses, since none of us know how power levels directly influence a characters stats.

Case in point, if Goku's power level is 2x higher, does it make him 2x stronger/faster? 4x? 8x? We sure as hell don't know.
You can't create a formula to determine Goku's top-speed if we don't even know how his power level affects his stats.

And before you say "But KnightLancer, you're retarded because you did the same thing!"

I used the other guy's formula to show the inherent flaw in his argument. No more. No less.

Superman however, has at least several timed speed feats, as well as one in which the general time frame could be determined from things we already know, like bullets or light.

his (Superman's) martial arts is better or on equal level with Gokus.

We NEVER said that. I even openly admitted that Goku was better at martial arts than Superman.

except for martial arts knowledge, which I have to hand to Goku.

Haterade never said it either, he was just pointing out that Superman DOES have martial arts training, to counter the notion that Superman is completely untrained in formal ways of fighting.

Besides, in the scans I posted previously, Superman lives through the heat and intensity of the BIG BANG.

The god-damn BIG BANG, which created the universe.

His durability is leagues beyond anything Goku can throw at him.

So where did you get these numbers? I know you just pulled them out of your ass. You try to use the one of the weakest forms of goku in his adult life.. yea thats a typical supes fan for ya.
My calcaltions show that goku could easily pass the speed of light when he fight burta what proof do you have that he cant? besides using the weakest for of goku.

Hey Look Numbers, and they seem pretty damn accurate to me...<-It's a link.

 

[Roanapur]

Also, concerning Phenomenol's "Toriyama said that they can move light speed" argument, a friend of mine has an explanation for how an author of a work of fiction could be wrong....

How can an author be wrong about his own work?
An author/creator surely makes the work so how can they be wrong? Well if I changed the word author/creator to another profession like...programmer, we can clearly see that not even the creator of a work knows his work perfectly. More specifically, for a creator, there is a difference between "creating" a piece of work and "being" a piece of work. If Kishimoto says "Itachi is killed by Gaara" one day, and then the next day the manga is released and Itachi is killed by someone else, the author is wrong. At the same time, you could naively also call it the logical fallacy to "appeal to authority". "Oh but since the creator said so, it must be true". No. What dictates what happens in a manga is exactly that: What happens in the manga.
How can a work be wrong about itself?
This is a little stranger. In a periodically released manga/comic, there is time for change in ideas. We have a term for it, retroactive continuity, or simply "retcon".

 

[Jafoi]

Superman just defend one city ¬¬
Goku defend all Earth, and other planets.

The answer is simple

 

[KnightLancer]

Superman just defend one city ¬¬
Goku defend all Earth, and other planets.

The answer is simple

Actually, Superman regularly defends other places besides just Metropolis. It's just that Superman lives in Metropolis, and that's where a lot of stuff happens in the DC Universe (like New York City in Marvel Comics)

He stops threats around the world, and regularly has other space adventures too.

He's kind of a galactic super-celebrity really...

 

[Phenomenol]

That's exactly what I was suggesting Superman can do.

He could fly in linearly, attack, fly out, fly in linearly, attack, etc...

Superman has NEVER done that, it takes him too long to reach that speed. Goku fights at lightspeed so that won't work.

......some of which move so slowly that they have enough time to stare in awe at them for multiple seconds, which is a far cry from the nanoseconds that it would take for a light speed attack to hit them.

No, DBZ fights at lightspeed which is ALWAYS displayed in combat........

Akira Toriyama Interview by Nirazaki Tihashiberi
Super Otaku Magazine Issue #297

Nirazaki: There have been many changes since the Saiya-jins came to earth. Do you ever think about the progress?

Toriyama-san: Yes I do. Doragonboru has come a long way. They went from running at super speed to moving at the speed of light! (Laughs)

http://www.daizex.com/general/podcast/ (last podcast 0051)

I'm just going to hit him. Hard. Same principle with Superman.

No, Goku FIGHTS at lightspeed like I told you Superman does not fight even at the speed of sound he has been tagged by Doomsday, Gog, Shaggy man All with human speeds.

 

[Roanapur]

Alright, I concede.

 

[Phenomenol]

Thanks, give my regards to the Outskirts Battledome (my house)!