Discussion Goku vs Superman

[Phenomenol]

Common sense is not proof. Yes they got faster, but we don't know how much faster. You can't just claim they're FTL by saying "it's common sense!"

Death beam is a ki blast, and ki blasts are light, so how the hell would the death beam be faster than light if it IS light? You're saying light can be reflected off of...more light now?

They can't go faster-than-light if they ARE light. Jeez...

Yes, common sense tells us that DBZ fights at FTL speeds! Goku as a child was FASTER than lightning and later easily gets stronger and faster with all the training.

The Death Beam is a ki blast but it was FASTER than light itself!!!

 

[Roanapur]

That is common sense! Unless your telling me that Goku didn't get any faster as the series went on?

But just because he gets faster over the course of the series, it doesn't mean that he's FTL.

That's a no limits fallacy of the highest degree.

That is not the same thing. Terrible analogy. They use ACTUAL speed to dodge attacks/Ki blasts.

Actually, that analogy perfectly illustrates the point I was trying to make.

1. Freeza's death beam and movements was so fast LIGHT could not reflect off of it! Goku was able to follow and fight freeza because he to is FTL!!!

....what?

If you claim that ki blasts are composed of light, which they aren't, how could it's movement speed have anything to do with reflecting light if it's light itself? Actually, would you also care to explain how light would reflect light?

Lastly, they give off light, but aren't light themselves. Fire gives off light, but is it composed of only light? No.

 

[Phenomenol]

But just because he gets faster over the course of the series, it doesn't mean that he's FTL.

That's a no limits fallacy of the highest degree.

Wrong, lighting is half the speed of light. Goku was faster than that as a child. Saying Goku did not break the light barrier as the series went on is a fallacy.

Actually, that analogy perfectly illustrates the point I was trying to make.

It is not a good analogy.

....what? If you claim that ki blasts are composed of light, which they aren't, how could it's movement speed have anything to do with reflecting light if it's light itself? Actually, would you also care to explain how light would reflect light?

Lastly, they give off light, but aren't light themselves. Fire gives off light, but is it composed of only light? No.

Your not getting it.

Freeza's blast was FASTER than light because light itself could NOT reflcect off of it. Characters attacks do get faster and stronger as the series moves on.

 

[KnightLancer]

Lightning's maximum speed in the atmosphere is 100,000 miles per hour, I've already posted a source to verify my claim.

100,000 mph, as Haterade has already shown, is much, much, much, much slower than light.
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Freeza's blast was FASTER than light because light itself could NOT reflcect off of it. Characters attacks do get faster and stronger as the series moves on.

If light couldn't reflect off of it, that just means it's invisible. It's why glass is clear but you can still see it, since most light passes through, but a small amount is reflected. If there was a glass through which all light passed, as in, light wasn't reflected, you wouldn't see it. Does that mean this piece of glass is going FTL? NO!

And the character's attacks just do the exact same shit over and over and over and over.
Holy Crap! Rocks are floating when Villain X powers up! Woah, we're so impressed even though we've seen it a billion times before. Craters are created! Mountains are blown up! People crash through cliffs and punch eachother and there are ambiguous shockwaves seen! Fuck-a-doodle-doo, besides near-constant use of A vs B vs C logic (which is inherently flawed in itself), DBZ characters have no solid feats backing up their FTL claim.

God...

 

[Roanapur]

My math was actually off by a considerable amount, since I assumed that light was only 100,000 miles per second(instead of it's true speed of 186,000m/s), in order to keep the math simple.

Light is, in reality, closer to 6,000x faster than lightning.

 

[Phenomenol]

Whenever light can not reflect off of BEAM it is going FTL.

Anyone care to actually get to some match-ups???

 

[KnightLancer]

There already is one Phenom.

Goku vs Tsunami-kami-sama.

Which, by the way, Tsunami-kami-sama wins in a complete curbstomp.

Even Ronson thinks so, and quite rightly too...

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The Death Beam is a ki blast but it was FASTER than light itself!!!

2. Ki blasts are faster than light(Ki blasts ARE light)!.

You just said ki blasts were light. Light cannot go faster than other forms of light. So unless ki blasts are composed of a distinct energy that ISN'T light (like...oh...KI energy?) that can move at speeds independent to the speed of light, the Death beam itself cannot be faster than light.

It can be as fast AS light, which would mean the only time you'd actually see it is when it hits you, but if all your previous statements are true, than the Death Beam is not FTL.

...

It appears logic has been thrown out the window...

 

[Phenomenol]

The power of DBZ increases, Ki attacks get faster and stronger!!!

Freeza's beam could not be reflected by light, therefore FASTER than light.

Tsunami from Tenchi Muyo was not impressive I could care less about her light-hawk wings!

Goku has fought beings more powerful than her.

 

[KnightLancer]

Stronger yea, faster...not really...

And of course Frieza's beam wasn't reflected by light. Hell, the light coming off of me that goes to other people's eyes isn't reflected by light. Try learning how to speak english first, then return to the debate.

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Tsunami was a multiversal level Goddess who could alter the very fabric of reality and created the universe alongside Washuu and Tokimi.

Goku has fought beings more powerful than an effectively omnipotent Goddess on the level of the Beyonder? Tsunami, who can summon the maximum amount of energy that can exist in the universe at one point without destroying the fabric of reality in the form of the lighthawk wings? Effectively, a completely impenetrable shield.

I don't think so!

It doesn't matter how powerful Goku is. He's not getting past those 10 Lighthawk wings. Ever.

Those things are plot devices. On the level of the Ultimate Nullifier, Hokuto Shin Ken, or Anything Adam West Batman pulls out of his belt.

Cause you just know the guy is packing an Anti-SuperSaiyan Personal Repellant Bat-Force field on his person.

Haha...

Next you'll be telling me Goku would be able to beat a Bloodlusted Belldandy, or Pre-Crisis Superman (oh wait).

Which, for that matter...

How the hell would Goku even stand half a chance against Pre-Crisis Superman?

The guy vaped a solar system because he accidentally sneezed, and he flies fast enough to go back in time and to cross galaxies in seconds.

He blows out stars like a normal person would blow out a candle.

Goku has no chance against him. Ever.

 

[Phenomenol]

Your really starting to fail. Freeza's blast could not be seen that means it is faster than light.

I already know Tsunami is omnipotent or nigh omnipotent! Quit using characters like that against non omnipotent beings. For the record Tsunami has never showed this so called all might power!! Her best feat is destroying a quarter of a Galaxy in a fight.

 

[KnightLancer]

Either that or, you know, it's just invisible.

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Oh yeah, destroying a quarter of a galaxy. Because galaxies are so tiny. That feat alone just beats out everything Goku's ever done.

So you know Tsunami's nigh-omnipotent...

And you STILL think Goku would win?

Well then, all I can ask is... What the hell is wrong with you?

 

[Phenomenol]

I already said that Goku loses to nigh-omnipotent Tsunami!!!

BTW; Goku has went toe-to-toe with Galaxy destroyers before, nothing knew to Goku.

I believe you said that someone like the Silver Surfer could beat Goku which is false!!

 

[KnightLancer]

The Silver Surfer can withstand the crushing pressures of a black hole and can easily withstand great extremes in temperature. He is not bothered by the friction associated with atmospheric re-entry, and has withstood plunges into stars and even supernovae. He also routinely weathers the stresses associated with high-speed travel through space and hyperspace.

The Silver Surfer possesses the Power Cosmic which was granted to him by Galactus. He has the ability to absorb and tap ambient cosmic energy into his body at will, and expel those energies violently, or in more subtle ways. He can channel beams of energy through his hands with sufficient destructive force to destroy a planet, or wield the energies with such finesse as to restructure the molecules of the natural dyes within a plant to change its color. The Surfer can rearrange matter to create other configurations and can even transmute elements. (such as turning a steel napkin holder into solid gold or tons of rock into harmless gas) Other uses of the Power Cosmic have included the ability to phase through objects, accelerate the evolution of lifeforms (even on a planet wide scale), see the past by peeling back the layers of time, time travel, trans dimensional travel, the manipulation/absorption and discharge of any form of energy or radiation, and granting limited cosmic powers to others. The Silver Surfer also posses the ability to negate or suppress the powers of the other mutants/beings making them Temporarily (Potentially Permanently) out of use to them.

The Silver Surfer has control over the 4 fundamental forces:

* Electro-magnetism
* Gravitikinesis: Manipulation of Gravity
* Ability to store and discharge nuclear force (Strong/Weak Force).

Hell, nothing would stop Silver Surfer from stopping time and turning Goku's brain into a blueberry muffin.

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And Goku's gone toe-to-toe with Galaxy destroyers? Like Buu? The method by which Buu destroyed that Galaxy is ambiguous and unknown. For all we know, he might've taken thousands or millions of years to go traverse that space and destroy each star and planet.

The only serious galaxy-buster Goku ever fought was Brolly, and Brolly isn't even canon! None of the movies are! The entirety of Brolly's existence (he should be orders of magnitude stronger than Goku and Co. and yet he was defeated) makes no sense whatsoever. Everything about him reeks of extreme Plot Induced Stupidity and Spider-Man vs Firelord for Goku (Spider-Man vs Firelord referring to an incident in which a character does something significantly outside of their given powerset). Not to mention just plain bad writing. Brolly, God, what an emo whiney angst-ridden bastard...

 

[Phenomenol]

He can stop time, travel through time, transmute matter at the molecular level, travel at FTL speeds, fight at FTL speeds, absorb and manipulate energy, and could basically turn Goku into a balloon if he felt like it. His strength can be amped up through the power cosmic to rival Hulk even when Hulk is uber-unrecognizably pissed.

The Silver Surfer can withstand the crushing pressures of a black hole and can easily withstand great extremes in temperature. He is not bothered by the friction associated with atmospheric re-entry, and has withstood plunges into stars and even supernovae. He also routinely weathers the stresses associated with high-speed travel through space and hyperspace.

Surfer ONLY flies at FTL speeds on his board he can't fight anywhere near lightspeed or even at Super Speeds. I take it that you don't know much about the Surfer? Surfer NEVER transmutes in battle he only turns napkins into Gold. Surfer has been knocked out way tooooo many times for him to even look at Goku.

Goku curbstomps the Silver Surfer.

 

[KnightLancer]

And Goku counters the timestop how?

Goku never blew up a planet in battle before. Does that suddenly mean he can't do it?

Surfer COULD transmute Goku. There's nothing stopping him from doing so. So no, Goku loses by a curbstomp in Surfer's favor.

By the way: Goku died waaaaaay too many times for him to look at Surfer.

 

[Phenomenol]

Surfer can NOT stop time...

Surfer could NOT transmute Goku, that is your fanboyism.

Surfer is slow and weak. Please go read Silver Surfer comics then come back and debate.

 

[KnightLancer]

Slow? Weak? Hardly.

The Silver Surfer creates a black hole with his energies.

Surfer goes fast enough to travel through time

Silver Surfer destroys a planet as a byproduct of one of his fights, and a lot of the surrounding moons as well

Surfer has gone through supernovae unharmed, explosions with enough power to wipe out entire solar systems.

And how is it that you just assume Goku can't be transmuted? What, does he suddenly have an immunity to transmutation now? There's nothing stopping Surfer from turning Goku into whatever the hell he wants. Not to mention Surfer could just manipulate the energy in Goku (energy manipulation being one of his powers) to completely negate Goku's abilities.

Sure, Surfer never transmuted anyone for a knockout. Surfer's also a noted pacifist too, so it's rather out of character of him to do so. He's already shown his matter transmutation abilities, by, as you yourself said, turning napkins into gold.
Why the hell wouldn't Surfer be able to turn Goku into a granite statue, or helium, or anything else for that matter?

Or hell, he wouldn't even have to transmute Goku, he could transmute Goku's blood into ice, or the very oxygen in Goku's lungs into...say...well, napkins. If he can turn napkins into gold, I see no reason why he can't turn oxygen into napkins. And quite frankly, Goku's going to have trouble breathing with napkins clogging up his lungs. Or transmute Goku's Gi into bands of true adamantium...

Seriously, the list goes on and on.

 

[ronson]

This threads alive again yay!

First of all, the only Tsunami i imagine Goku could beat, her in the ship form. Simply because ships are easily broke. But that doesn't mean he would beat her, just the ship. And before he could do that damage, should just destroy him. Most of the main characters could beat goku (Tsunami, Tenchi, Z, Washuu etc...)

Don't know what your talking about with the silver surfer but Goku's death have nothing to do with it (this was brought on another forum) but you also have to realize why he died. The first time he sacrificed himself (against raditz) and he did the same with Cell too. But i'm not getting involved with that one.

Knight, is that first image you posted on your last post really silver surfer lmao he don't like silver! (Joke btw)

Ki speeds, i do actually think that's dependant on the users ability to put force behind it. But there is no proof there. For example in the Anime Krillins destructo disk go's pretty fast, whereas in the sayain saga he did a blast that moved pretty slow.

Not only that if Ki Blasts ARE light, then would the z fighters actually be able to touch them as its light? And would it not damage them either as its jsut light?

One thing i did think of is, how would they show Goku fighting at light speed? In the anime, there is a few lines that do some stuff then sound happens which to me means they are equal to light or faster.

The only problem with dragonball/z is that there is no proof about anything. Strength, speed, powers etc. And one advantage Superman has over DB/Z is how long it's been releasing for (even post crisis). As it's been releasing for so long more encounters have occured, thus more proof which is one main reason why there is more evidence for superman to disprove theories for dbz.

Yakkan, yakkun or whatever his name is doesn't have black whole properties. That's the msot retardest thing ever. Giving the Goku followers bad names! (Goku followers as in people who believe he would win against Post Superman.)

Have fun :P

 

[Phenomenol]

Slow? Weak? Hardly.

The Silver Surfer creates a black hole with his energies.

Surfer goes fast enough to travel through time

Silver Surfer destroys a planet as a byproduct of one of his fights, and a lot of the surrounding moons as well

1. Silver Surfer creating a black hole is not impressive. All he has to do is destroy a star to do that. Not too mention the fact that the feat was off panel.

2.Surfer traveling through time is not a combat speed feat. Surfer ALWAYS gets tagged by slow ass beings.

3. Surfer and MORG with their COMBINED powers destroyed a planet. Surfer NEVER in his career destroyed a planet alone because he doesn't have the power.

Surfer has gone through supernovae unharmed, explosions with enough power to wipe out entire solar systems.

And how is it that you just assume Goku can't be transmuted? What, does he suddenly have an immunity to transmutation now? There's nothing stopping Surfer from turning Goku into whatever the hell he wants. Not to mention Surfer could just manipulate the energy in Goku (energy manipulation being one of his powers) to completely negate Goku's abilities.

Sure, Surfer never transmuted anyone for a knockout. Surfer's also a noted pacifist too, so it's rather out of character of him to do so. He's already shown his matter transmutation abilities, by, as you yourself said, turning napkins into gold.
Why the hell wouldn't Surfer be able to turn Goku into a granite statue, or helium, or anything else for that matter?

Or hell, he wouldn't even have to transmute Goku, he could transmute Goku's blood into ice, or the very oxygen in Goku's lungs into...say...well, napkins. If he can turn napkins into gold, I see no reason why he can't turn oxygen into napkins. And quite frankly, Goku's going to have trouble breathing with napkins clogging up his lungs. Or transmute Goku's Gi into bands of true adamantium...

Seriously, the list goes on and on.

[/QUOTE]

Surfer can go through Super nova's and the Sun because he ABSORBS those kinds of energies. That is not a durability feat. Surfer NEVER transmutes in battle because he can't do it to organic matter. Surfer has only been shown to transmute OBJECTS. Surfer is a pacifist too.

Surfer has been knocked out tooooo many times to even look at Goku. I really suggest that you read some of his comics.

 

[mrcongojack]

1. Silver Surfer creating a black hole is not impressive. All he has to do is destroy a star to do that. Not too mention the fact that the feat was off panel.

2.Surfer traveling through time is not a combat speed feat. Surfer ALWAYS gets tagged by slow ass beings.

3. Surfer and MORG with their COMBINED powers destroyed a planet. Surfer NEVER in his career destroyed a planet alone because he doesn't have the power.


Surfer can go through Super nova's and the Sun because he ABSORBS those kinds of energies. That is not a durability feat. Surfer NEVER transmutes in battle because he can't do it to organic matter. Surfer has only been shown to transmute OBJECTS. Surfer is a pacifist too.

Surfer has been knocked out tooooo many times to even look at Goku. I really suggest that you read some of his comics.

To get the Surfer's complete list of powers, I went to Marvel's website. Here's a complete description of his abilities.

Spoiler

Powers
The Silver Surfer wields "the power cosmic", absorbing and manipulating the universe's ambient cosmic energies. He can augment his strength to incalculable levels, and is almost totally indestructible. He can navigate space, hyperspace and dimensional barriers, and can fly at near-limitless speeds on his board, entering hyperspace when he exceeds light speed. He has even proven capable of time travel on occasion. The Surfer does not require food, drink, air or sleep, sustained entirely by converting matter into energy. He is immune to temperature extremes and most radiation, and can survive in vacuum environments such as outer space and hyperspace. He can analyze and manipulate matter and energy, and restructure or animate matter at will, even transmuting elements. He can heal living beings (though he cannot raise the dead), and has proven capable of revitalizing or evolving organic life on a planet wide scale. He can alter the size of himself or of other matter, cast illusions, fire energy blasts, form and manipulate energy constructs, manipulate gravity, absorb and discharge most forms of energy, and phase through solid matter. His senses enable him to detect objects and energies light years away, and to perceive matter and energy in subatomic detail; he can even see through time, and with concentration can achieve limited perception of past and future events in his general vicinity. The Surfer has demonstrated limited telepathic ability on occasion, and has proven able to influence human emotion and sensation.

link: http://www.marvel.com/universe/Silver_Surfer
Nowhere in the description does it say Surfer cannot transmute organic matter. It does say he can restructure matter at will and since Goku is indeed composed of 100% matter he could easily restructure Goku's lungs into napkins or muffins, or any other part of Goku since HE IS MATTER.

Also, creating a black hole is not as easy as destroying a star. A black hole is formed when a star is no longer able to resist its own gravitational pressure (which happens when it either runs out of fuel to burn or gains a large amount of extra mass that does not raise its core temperature, making the star unstable) or when two neutron stars collide.

EDIT:
About the whole "ki=light" debate...
From wikipedia:

Qi, also commonly spelled ch'i (in Wade-Giles romanization) or ki (in romanized Japanese), is a fundamental concept of traditional Chinese culture. Qi is believed to be part of every living thing that exists, as a kind of “life force” or “spiritual energy.”

Ki is a Spiritual energy. While light is......

Light is electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength that is visible to the eye (visible light) or, in a technical or scientific context, the word is sometimes used to mean electromagnetic radiation of all wavelengths.