Discussion Elizabeth

[revo]

I’m not talking about her power level.

I’m explaining to you why some people say the SD must have used Elizabeth to brainwash Mel.

It’s because she’s seemingly not good for anything else at all(explained above already).

One of those theories is to have a proper heir.

People often sight this page as their reason why they believe they have a hidden kid somewhere:

Spoiler

People think she was pregnant, and carrying the taizai Tristan equivalent. We will eventually come back to what they were embarrassed to talk about(I assume).

As for her being the only one fit for Meliodas’s bed, leading to the degradation of her character......

Even though she isn’t strong herself she still has SD genes. I’m sure she would still produce the strongest kid of her clan, and the stronger the person she has the kid with the stronger the kid/heir the SD can have.

I seriously don’t think that theory has anymore thought put into it than that.

Do you disagree that would be the case? Elizabeth would produce the strongest kid in the clan?

Oh, now I see then.
I don't think the SD actually needed Elizabeth being useful. As I always say, we don't know if she wanted a heir just like the DK who was obssesed with Meliodas being the king. What I mean is, we don't know much of the SD relationship with her daughter so we don't know if "she needed Elizabeth or not". What we know is that she was pissed off at her secret relationship, so if she needed Elizabeth for some motive, it didn't really work.
I didn't know that the theory of Elizabeth being pregnant was still popular. I still doubt it, but if she was killed with a child inside of her that would be hard af. And if she really had Tristan then the SD didn't really want Elizabeth to have a kid or a next heir since she punished her tho. Also these two having a kid would be very riscky from their part.
Elizabeth having a child with Meliodas would make a powerful being, even very OP. Elizabeth is far to be a strong fighter but she's still a high rank goddess and has an OP healing and purification, count that with Meliodas's genes and then yes, you have a strong kid.

 

[T25]

The theory was created that the SD used Elizabeth by fans, because Nakaba has given her no purpose in her clan. She does not seem to serve the SD in any seeable capacity, or really do anything at all.

I know you all in the Eli squad hate it but Nakaba gave people ranks, fancy titles and job descriptions for a reason.

She dislikes fighting and stays off the battlefield most of the time.

She’s not the leader of the goddess clan in place of her mom on the battlefield.

She’s not the hope of the clan.

She’s not the almighty invincible heir to the goddess clan.

She’s not Mael and Ludo’s master, the strongest two goddesses.

She’s not the goddess queen’s personal executioner/representative.

She’s not the goddess queen’s personal trusted assistant she thought about giving half her power to before splitting it among the 4 AA.

She’s not an AA herself.

She’s not the leader of the 4 AA’s.

She seemingly does absolutely nothing.

She’s just Lady Elizabeth, the SD’s daughter, and that one goddess who seduced the legendary Meliodas.

That’s her title.

Seeing as that’s not actually serving the SD in any way, people came up with the idea that the SD must have unknowingly used her without her knowing, cause it’s the only thing she can get out of her because she does nothing else.

You say that “degrades” her character, but either the SD used her for something, or she does absolutely nothing at all.

Which is it?

You asked why that degraded her character while degrading her character. Bizarre. Your entire list had nothing but to do with military action and then rendered judgement by saying she does nothing. Kind of a single and narrow minded analysis there.

You said nakaba gave ranks for a reason then rejected that she is of the same rank as your implied characters

Fancy titles for a reason yet degrade her title

As for job description, youre right in that we don’t know.

Were you trying to merely explain how the theory came about? Because it was seemingly laced in your own views of her

 

[Seven777]

It's always been that. The rest was merely build up.


Yes.

Or maybe the plot has always been about the war between the SD and the DK and the "romance" is merely build up.

Their relation was there in the first chapter. The details to it came in due time and continue to do so. It’s the detail that was revealed later. Simple as that.

Sure, but i wasnt talking about their "relation"

Never said I continued so I can read a good romance story.

I know, hence my disbelief

I believe your first flaw is a flaw in and of itself. To perpetuate that a man and woman who simply loved one another is more at fault for the deaths of people than the people who actually committed the act is somewhat deluded. The conflict between the two was there well before the two even met. The difference was merely a title: war. Mels defection was taken advantage of.

Who said anything about fault? Whether its Elizabeth and Mel's fault doesnt matter, its simply a fact that their relationship triggered a war that killed a lot of people, and that they chose to stay together despite this.

Your second point completely disregards any notion that a man can change. You described “AM Mel” a certain way earlier I believe (or was it yesterday?) It seemed as if you viewed him as a psychopath above reasoning with, which I believe is contrary to actual, although sparse, depiction of him. Mel told ban that he believed at that time that the conflict between the two clans was pointless. Stark contrast to the likes of ludo ideology. He wasn’t a complete fanatic to his ways.

Current AM Meliodas when faced with Elizabeth felt nothing, despite thousands of years of history and love backing their relationship. Past AM Meliodas feeling something for someone without all that love and history makes absolutely no sense.

As for the third....I don’t quite understand how that is an issue of concern for you. Or what exactly you mean by that. It would seem that quite a lot of people here think that Mel did what he did simply and singularly so he can be with her instead of also because he wished to find another way to stop the war with her that didn’t necessitate genocide.

What are you talking about? My third point is that rather than engaging with every single Elizabeth after he meets her, he should have just ran to the other side of the world to avoid her so she can live a long life and so he doesnt have to watch her die.

Fair enough. However I don’t agree with your reasonings regarding brainwashing as I had stated regarding those flaws you spoke of. Clearing flaws.....with an overarching flaw huh. There is the fact that we don’t know much of the dynamic between them in the past. It certainly wasn’t exactly the same. All in all brainwashing does not appeal to me, garners my interest nor seems in tune

True, we dont know much about their past relationship, and if Nakaba does give an entirely different explanation for just how the emotional Meliodas fell in love with Elizabeth then im all for that, but as of right now the brainwashing theory seems pretty good and interesting to me, and i personally hope thats what Nakaba goes for.

 

[Shutensatsu]

Oh, now I see then.
I don't think the SD actually needed Elizabeth being useful. As I always say, we don't know if she wanted a heir just like the DK who was obssesed with Meliodas being the king. What I mean is, we don't know much of the SD relationship with her daughter so we don't know if "she needed Elizabeth or not". What we know is that she was pissed off at her secret relationship, so if she needed Elizabeth for some motive, it didn't really work.
I didn't know that the theory of Elizabeth being pregnant was still popular. I still doubt it, but if she was killed with a child inside of her that would be hard af. And if she really had Tristan then the SD didn't really want Elizabeth to have a kid or a next heir since she punished her tho. Also these two having a kid would be very riscky from their part.
Elizabeth having a child with Meliodas would make a powerful being, even very OP. Elizabeth is far to be a strong fighter but she's still a high rank goddess and has an OP healing and purification, count that with Meliodas's genes and then yes, you have a strong kid.

O.k then now we have a understanding.

I don’t think the “SD used Elizabeth” theories are a degradation of her character.

Like wanting a heir. Or using her to tempt Mel away from the demons to weaken them, etc.

It’s just a result of people trying to assign her some kind of job, because everyone that matters in this story has some sort of title/job. But Eli doesn’t, and the SD I don’t think has even had a single line of dialogue with her. Heck right now I’d say obtaining Merlin was more valuable to her than Eli is.

Because as far as we know, if the SD didn’t use her for anything, then she was just Lady Elizabeth, the SD’s daughter, and Meliodas’s waifu.

And doesn’t really have any relevance beyond that to her clan, which is kinda sad since she’s the SD’s daughter.

 

[T25]

Or maybe the plot has always been about the war between the SD and the DK and the "romance" is merely build up.

The war ended. It was brought back by those who had participated.

I know, hence my disbelief

Neither did I say I didn’t

Who said anything about fault?

its killed more people in the manga than anything other than the gods

its simply a fact that their relationship triggered a war that killed a lot of people, and that they chose to stay together despite this

You

Current AM Meliodas when faced with Elizabeth felt nothing, despite thousands of years of history and love backing their relationship. Past AM Meliodas feeling something for someone without all that love and history makes absolutely no sense

You imply it happened in an instant. Let alone that feeling something no matter how small is not contradictory. He had thoughts and views.

What are you talking about? My third point is that rather than engaging with every single Elizabeth after he meets her, he should have just ran to the other side of the world to avoid her so she can live a long life and so he doesnt have to watch her die.

Are you sure he never did?

Part of their curse is that he will meet her and he will watch her die. There were over a hundred circumstance we did not see.

True, we dont know much about their past relationship, and if Nakaba does give an entirely different explanation for just how the emotional Meliodas fell in love with Elizabeth then im all for that, but as of right now the brainwashing theory seems pretty good and interesting to me, and i personally hope thats what Nakaba goes for.

If youre interested okay. Regardless, I do not prefer it

 

[Seven777]

The war ended. It was brought back by those who had participated.

Huh?

Neither did I say I didn’t

I know, which is why i phrased it as a question

You

Wrong, i said that their relationship killed a lot of people, which it did. I didnt say it was their fault, though im also not saying that its not their fault..

You imply it happened in an instant. Let alone that feeling something no matter how small is not contradictory. He had thoughts and views.

Doesnt matter how many or what kind of thoughts, views or even emotions AM Meliodas had, we've seen now that love isnt one of them, and this is despite thousands of years of love with each other. Even if El spent years courting Mel, i dont see how that can be a greater trigger for emotion than thousands of years of love, it just doesnt make sense to me.

Are you sure he never did?

Yep

Spoiler

Part of their curse is that he will meet her and he will watch her die. There were over a hundred circumstance we did not see.

True, and the fact that Elizabeth falls in love with Meliodas every time just makes the brainwashing theory seem that much more reasonable.

 

[T25]

Huh?
I know, which is why i phrased it as a question
Wrong, i said that their relationship killed a lot of people, which it did. I didnt say it was their fault, though im also not saying that its not their fault..
Doesnt matter how many or what kind of thoughts, views or even emotions AM Meliodas had, we've seen now that love isnt one of them, and this is despite thousands of years of love with each other. Even if El spent years courting Mel, i dont see how that can be a greater trigger for emotion than thousands of years of love, it just doesnt make sense to me.
Yep

Spoiler

True, and the fact that Elizabeth falls in love with Meliodas every time just makes the brainwashing theory seem that much more reasonable.

Do you not know what fault means? Do I?You blame a relationship and not the people in it.....huh? Murder is wrong but you, whom have committed murder, are not wrong. Is that an example of your comprehension of fault?

Do you think love is just a physical sensation? You love with action and mind not just physical sensation. It is a mentality. That is what we have seen he has regressed to. He lost certain feelings. Feelings that are gained. Not always instant. Compassion that you didn’t have, learned and gained. Care for life that you didn’t have, learned and gained. Joy of the mundane that you didn’t have, learned and gained. Depression. Taken away. You forgot. Is Mel’s situation that much different?

If you accept the part of the curse that states she will fall in love, why do you reject that he will meet and watch her die? No matter how much he runs. As for that part about falling, it does indeed merit questioning. Especially so since Mel brought it up himself.

 

[Seven777]

Do you not know what fault means? Do I?You blame a relationship and not the people in it.....huh? Murder is wrong but you, whom have committed murder, are not wrong. Is that an example of your comprehension of fault?

Is Hitlers mother at fault for birthing Hitler? Mel and El created a reason for the DC and GC to go to war, and that reason killed a lot of people. Is it their fault? Maybe, maybe not, i certainly wouldnt call them good people for continuing it , though i also cant say i wouldnt do the same.

Do you think love is just a physical sensation? You love with action and mind not just physical sensation. It is a mentality. That is what we have seen he has regressed to. He lost certain feelings. Feelings that are gained. Not always instant. Compassion that you didn’t have, learned and gained. Care for life that you didn’t have, learned and gained. Joy of the mundane that you didn’t have, learned and' gained. Depression. Taken away. You forgot. Is Mel’s situation that much different?

Yes, its completely different. because everything past AM Meliodas could "learn and gain", is already possessed by current AM Meliodas in far greater quantity. He has already learnt everything his past self learned and much, much more, and yet when Elizabeth embraced him and professed her love he felt absolutely nothing. If "learning" was all it took to "gain" then Meliodas' should have started "gaining" his emotions back when his memories returned to him.

If you accept the part of the curse that states she will fall in love, why do you reject that he will meet and watch her die? No matter how much he runs. As for that part about falling, it does indeed merit questioning. Especially so since Mel brought it up himself.

Exactly my point, if their love really is forced upon them then that would give a reasonable explanation for why Meliodas doesnt just leave Elizabeth to live her lives in peace, it would be because he doesnt have a choice, hence why im such a big fan of the brainwashing theory.

 

[revo]

Mel and El created a reason for the DC and GC to go to war,

To be fair, the war already existed, some people just used Meliodas's desicion to take adventage.
I think what T25 is trying to say in this is that the wrong thing in the war wasn't Meliodas and Elizabeth relationship, but the racist and dumb rules that both clans had against each other. Still, yeah, these two were very risky in their desicions in general.

 

[Seven777]

To be fair, the war already existed, some people just used Meliodas's desicion to take adventage.
I think what T25 is trying to say in this is that the wrong thing in the war wasn't Meliodas and Elizabeth relationship, but the racist and dumb rules that both clans had against each other. Still, yeah, these two were very risky in their desicions in general.

True, and im not saying that the goddesses and demons arent responsible for the people that they kill, what i am saying is that if Mel and El didnt get together, there would be a lot less dead people.

 

[Gut's is the man]

True, and im not saying that the goddesses and demons arent responsible for the people that they kill, what i am saying is that if Mel and El didnt get together, there would be a lot less dead people.

Have to agree. When you look at their action objectively they both, mel especially, are incredibly self centered and self righteous, sanctimonious hypocrites. Who argued for peace yet continued fighting a war that their actions escalated and then abandoned their chosen side long after the point in which they should have been disillusioned. (The instant that the goddess gathered the other clans for joint assault while the demons were weak was when Liz and Mel should have left noting both sides as equal bad and focused on mitigating the damage and getting each side to negotiate) The fact they went along with the goddess' in spite of their goals makes brainwashing look like a legitimit option to correlate the selfless personalities of Liz and mel to extent, to the selfishly ignorant actions they perform.

 

[T25]

Is Hitlers mother at fault for birthing Hitler? Mel and El created a reason for the DC and GC to go to war, and that reason killed a lot of people. Is it their fault? Maybe, maybe not, i certainly wouldnt call them good people for continuing it , though i also cant say i wouldnt do the same.
Yes, its completely different. because everything past AM Meliodas could "learn and gain", is already possessed by current AM Meliodas in far greater quantity. He has already learnt everything his past self learned and much, much more, and yet when Elizabeth embraced him and professed her love he felt absolutely nothing. If "learning" was all it took to "gain" then Meliodas' should have started "gaining" his emotions back when his memories returned to him.
Exactly my point, if their love really is forced upon them then that would give a reasonable explanation for why Meliodas doesnt just leave Elizabeth to live her lives in peace, it would be because he doesnt have a choice, hence why im such a big fan of the brainwashing theory.

Do you find the mothers of all killers guilty of their childs’ crimes? Mel and Eli relation was not reason but opening. Why did the gc and dc go to war: because the dc prince got into a romantic relationship with the gc princess? No. Because there was hate and competition. Because their leaders made that choice. And their people made that choice.

My example indicated a progression of learn and gain that was lost in a moment. Your “rebuttal” indicated a progression of learn and gain that was lost in a moment. What difference do you speak of? I see no proper rebuttal.

I questioned how you knew he never tried to leave after meeting her again and gave you a panel where he tried to do just that. You mixed together my two points: they were forced to meet, and there is a reason to question the “will fall” portion of the curse. They were separate points.

To be fair, the war already existed, some people just used Meliodas's desicion to take adventage.
I think what T25 is trying to say in this is that the wrong thing in the war wasn't Meliodas and Elizabeth relationship, but the racist and dumb rules that both clans had against each other. Still, yeah, these two were very risky in their desicions in general.

Correct. And yes they did indeed make risky decisions I believe.

True, and im not saying that the goddesses and demons arent responsible for the people that they kill, what i am saying is that if Mel and El didnt get together, there would be a lot less dead people.

This is exactly what I take your statements to mean. First, no. There was hate and killing well before any outright war. Mel and Eli relation was perceived as an opening. A rope being pulled on either side will only last so long before it snaps.

 

[Seven777]

Do you find the mothers of all killers guilty of their childs’ crimes? Mel and Eli relation was not reason but opening. Why did the gc and dc go to war: because the dc prince got into a romantic relationship with the gc princess? No. Because there was hate and competition. Because their leaders made that choice. And their people made that choice.

Nope, but that doesnt mean that i pretend that if the child hadnt been born then the crime wouldnt have been committed.
You keep repeating the same thing, so i'll ask you outright. Would there or would there not be less dead people if El and Mel didnt get into a relationship, yes or no?

My example indicated a progression of learn and gain that was lost in a moment. Your “rebuttal” indicated a progression of learn and gain that was lost in a moment. What difference do you speak of? I see no proper rebuttal.

Your "example" was merely your view on what love is, there was no reason to me to reply to a "rebuttal" like that at all, but i gave you my two cents on it anyway. If you dont want to reply to it because you dont see it as a "proper rebuttal", then dont, i dont care.

I questioned how you knew he never tried to leave after meeting her again and gave you a panel where he tried to do just that. You mixed together my two points: they were forced to meet, and there is a reason to question the “will fall” portion of the curse. They were separate points.

No, you questioned me on how i knew that Meliodas didnt simply leave Elizabeth to live a full life, you didnt question me on whether he "attempted" it. i have no idea what Meliodas "attempted", nor am i interested, because in the end all Elizabeths still fell in love with Meliodas.

This is exactly what I take your statements to mean. First, no. There was hate and killing well before any outright war. Mel and Eli relation was perceived as an opening. A rope being pulled on either side will only last so long before it snaps.

Doesnt matter, because outright war was triggered by that opening. The fact that there was already clearly so much animosity between the clans just makes Elizabeth and Meliodas actually look culpable for not anticipating this response or attempting to rectify it by ending their relationship. And honestly, after all this discussion on the subject, i am leaning a lot more towards the two of them actually being far more guilty than i originally imagined.

 

[T25]

Nope, but that doesnt mean that i pretend that if the child hadnt been born then the crime wouldnt have been committed.
You keep repeating the same thing, so i'll ask you outright. Would there or would there not be less dead people if El and Mel didnt get into a relationship, yes or no?
Your "example" was merely your view on what love is, there was no reason to me to reply to a "rebuttal" like that at all, but i gave you my two cents on it anyway. If you dont want to reply to it because you dont see it as a "proper rebuttal", then dont, i dont care.
No, you questioned me on how i knew that Meliodas didnt simply leave Elizabeth to live a full life, you didnt question me on whether he "attempted" it. i have no idea what Meliodas "attempted", nor am i interested, because in the end all Elizabeths still fell in love with Meliodas.
Doesnt matter, because outright war was triggered by that opening. The fact that there was already clearly so much animosity between the clans just makes Elizabeth and Meliodas actually look culpable for not anticipating this response or attempting to rectify it by ending their relationship. And honestly, after all this discussion on the subject, i am leaning a lot more towards the two of them actually being far more guilty than i originally imagined.

I am not omniscient. If they had not gotten into a relationship, it is possible that the amount of deaths could eventually reach the same amount as the war. It is also possible that it could accumulate to a point before breaking into all out war. Oh the sheer volume Mel zel ludo mael (etc) could kill had the status quo been kept no? It is also possible that one of the brothers could be killed eventually and further perpetuate the conflict. Or it’s possible that the dk and gq would get bored and quit. And on and on and on. Oh did you want a yes or no? Can I give both?

That was my reply. Regarding my proper rebuttal comment, what I had meant was, in essence, that when I said “the cat is white” you countered with “no because the cat is white.”

Far more guilty huh. Very well

 

[Seven777]

I am not omniscient. If they had not gotten into a relationship, it is possible that the amount of deaths could eventually reach the same amount as the war. It is also possible that it could accumulate to a point before breaking into all out war. Oh the sheer volume Mel zel ludo mael (etc) could kill had the status quo been kept no? It is also possible that one of the brothers could be killed eventually and further perpetuate the conflict. Or it’s possible that the dk and gq would get bored and quit. And on and on and on. Oh did you want a yes or no? Can I give both?

That was my reply. Regarding my proper rebuttal comment, what I had meant was, in essence, that when I said “the cat is white” you countered with “no because the cat is white.”

Far more guilty huh. Very well

Sure, if you're unsure. My answer, if couldnt already tell is a yes. Whether they were at fault or not wasnt my point, my point was that yes more people would be dead, and brainwashing being responsible for this would make this less distasteful, for me anyway.

Then you're seeing something different to me, what it looked like to me was you asked "can the cat become white" and i said "no, we've already seen it fail to do it after rolling around in paint". Or to address the actual topic, you talked about we acquire love through :"learning and gaining" and asked if AM Mel is different from this, i answered yes he is, because his memories already contain everything he has "learned" but he still doesnt "gain" love.

Yep, my view on them already had them somewhat responsible, but now im more in line with Gut's opinion where i find what they've done or refused to do actually rather despicable.

 

[Gallon]

Or maybe the plot has always been about the war between the SD and the DK and the "romance" is merely build up.

That can't be the case because it heavily undermines the protagonist's 3,000 year goal.
"Oh hey, you know the suffering you went through for Elizabeth? It was all for nothing. There's no happy ending, because you never loved her to begin with."

It makes no sense for a shounen ending.

 

[ShadowHeart]

Love has been the single motivator for the entirety of the plot since the beginning of the manga. Mel's and liz' love, king's and diane's, ban's... Escanor even joining the sins likely has something to do with him falling in love with merlin. Heck, meliodas and liz started the great holy war because of their love. And I bet a buck that the demon king and supreme goddess wanting to bone is one of the reasons for the animosity between demon and goddess clan.

So what You're saying is this war between their clans is them fliring?

 

[Seven777]

That can't be the case because it heavily undermines the protagonist's 3,000 year goal.
"Oh hey, you know the suffering you went through for Elizabeth? It was all for nothing. There's no happy ending, because you never loved her to begin with."

It makes no sense for a shounen ending.

Not really, it could easily be something like "it doesnt matter how our love began, it has since grown and became something more, i know that the love we have for each other now and that the memories we made together are real" or something cheesy like that. Not every love story has to begin with "true love" or a "fated encounter" or crap like that, especially when the love story began well before the beginning of the story. There actually being a reason for two people who never should have fallen in love, falling in love, would be incredibly refreshing, stuff like "it was just fate" or "their love was so strong it overcomes the barriers of race and war" wouldnt be nearly as interesting.

 

[Gallon]

Not really, it could easily be something like "it doesnt matter how our love began, it has since grown and became something more, i know that the love we have for each other now and that the memories we made together are real" or something cheesy like that. Not every love story has to begin with "true love" or a "fated encounter" or crap like that, especially when the love story began well before the beginning of the story. There actually being a reason for two people who never should have fallen in love, falling in love, would be incredibly refreshing, stuff like "it was just fate" or "their love was so strong it overcomes the barriers of race and war" wouldnt be nearly as interesting.

You already said it's cheesy. It's not more interesting than genuine love in any way, because it would completely change the way Meliodas and Elizabeth are portrayed.
What's been established is that their love led to the Holy War, and that the same love will end up triumphant against the two gods' ambitions. I don't see another message floating around.

 

[Seven777]

You already said it's cheesy. It's not more interesting than genuine love in any way, because it would completely change the way Meliodas and Elizabeth are portrayed.
What's been established is that their love led to the Holy War, and that the same love will end up triumphant against the two gods' ambitions. I don't see another message floating around.

Them confessing that in the end is cheesy, the events leading up to it would be significantly more interesting than an ordinary love story. The turmoil that goes through them as they come to grips with the fact would be great to see, them reflecting on why they're together and why they love each other would be really good for the development of their relationship(because honestly i have no idea what they love about each other or why they're together), and it would make the manipulator(prob the SD) significantly more devious and interesting.
How exactly are Elizabeth and Meliodas portrayed? Hopelessly in love for no good reason? I'd be okay with a change in that portrayal.

Their love certainly led to the holy war, but not to the conflict, the war between the gods goes far beyond Mel and El's love story, imo their love is just a cog in the wheel of the gods greater conflict. As for their love ending up triumphant, nah, i doubt that in the end like that, imo it'll be the combined effort of the Sins, Elizabeth and possibly the entire country that'll do it. And while i do believe that in the end they'll break their curse, i think it will happen as an afterthought when all is said and done, an unexpected reward for their efforts.