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Curious. What do you think makes a person a “good person” and how has she been portrayed as less than that?
Discussion Elizabeth
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Care to elaborate?
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I suppose, it was a passing comment, but if tyou really want me to expand on it I will, try not to hate me for it though.
For your question "what makes a person a good person": A good person is someone like princess Elizabeth, willing to work hard at her own expense to ensure the safety and happiness of both the people she cares about, and people in general. Princess Elizabeth displays this through seeking out the Sins on her own, so she can save not only her dad and sisters, but also her whole country.
As for why i dont think she has been written as "good" as she used to be, its because of her whole love story with Meliodas. Now that she knows she loves Meliodas, suddenly her noble goals are put on the back burner in favor of that love. For example, she willingly(unless she was brainwashed) took Meliodas as her lover, the enemy of her people, and when that caused a war, she chose to stay with him.
Later, when Derriere was willing to parley in exchange for handing over Meliodas she refused her without a second though, no deliberation or consideration, she didnt even try to negotiate, even if it wouldve been pointless.
To the current time, and this is what I was actually thinking about when I originally said Elizabeth is written as good anymore, Elizabeth refused to accept Meliodas plan to absorb all the commandments, and as a result her country is going to war with the demons. Thats thousands of lives lost because she doesnt want Mel to go to purgatory. Meliodas becoming DK would be the ideal situation for the world, he would have control of the demons, so no war, he would slay the DK so no more evil behind the scenes machinations, and he would break the curses to boot. If Elizabeth had her head on straight she would support Meliodas' in his attempt to take in the commandments, she would ask the Sins to back her up, and she would try and exert her influence as princess of Lioness, and persuade her father and her country to stay away from Camelot long enough for Meliodas, the Sins, Zeldris and the Masters to gather the commandments and give them to Meliodas to absorb.
Maybe i'm just remembering princess Elizabeth better than she was, but i think she would have put the good of her country over her personal feelings on Meliodas going to purgatory.
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-Then there's no need to foreshadow Elizabeth proving Sariel's statement less than perfectly accurate. Even though her claim that she would stop Mael can fit in as foreshadowing.
-Because, as you said, they're both villains and one of them suffices in completely overwhelming 1/2 the Sin squad, you're basically expecting more of an asspull from characters who've so far been portrayed as weaker(raw power and ability wise) than Elizabeth's original form than her truly acting like a member of said team. That actually implies bias against her rather than a fair/objective perspective.
- Ban stealing raw strength to get Maelstarossa in the others' manageable range would only manage to completely wreck the writing choice Nakaba made with DayScanor VS AM Meliodas. It'd be senseless for Ban alone to bridge the enormous gap implied in the synopsis of this chapter. Escanor's involvement would damage even more the opinion on Nakaba's writing. Do you you really only expect the guys to be allowed the "invincible" tag and do you have an issue with women(at least that's what I glean from you missing the fact that even my data below the avi says I'm a "she", not a "he" so "she" will be getting on your case if you give "her" the reasons to)?!
-Those skills do portray her as far more versatile, even in activity, than a healer, no matter how hard you hide your head in the sand. Her actions, ever since the beginning, have portrayed her as more than a healer, she didn't heal against Ruin, she broke the enchantment, she didn't only heal against Hendy, she dispelled Dark Nebula which would've killed hundreds of people and wounded to some extent the very villain, she didn't heal against the Indura in the chapter that states from its mere title that she fought them and she proved to be more resilient in a 1 VS 2 when aware of conflict than each of the DD when trying to 1VS 1 or 2 VS 1 Indura, besides, she purified, not merely healed them; she didn't just heal Ban or Diane at Corrand, she purified the human souls' grudge on Helbram and the "intruders" and took away almost all of Melascula's "toys", hard earned toys; she didn't just heal the S&D army against the demon one, she used whatever type of brainwashing skill she has to try and pacify the demons; she didn't just heal Guila when "Estarossa" attacked, she repelled him and purified one of his attacks that could've harmed the S&D squad once Diane exhausted her energy. Aside from Mel VS Escanor, there isn't 1 major conflict where she was present that would have her act as only healer or simply TnJ her way out of it.
-I've listed 6 skills and only 1 skill is directed towards healing; the argument above also tells you you're the one with a skewed vision of her portrayal, she loves preserving life which in essence should be a staple of her clan, given the main uses of Ark; but that doesn't mean she was only shown healing, or that that's her go to tactic, you can't "heal" opponents out of a conflict. She's not portrayed as a standard fighter, and she's not portrayed as a standard healer, this story doesn't actually have black and white angles, when will you learn that?! Ocean and Tornado would only give her the edge to go near Maelstarossa's and 5 C Mel's range, minus the bloodlust and their typical tactics; when did I say she hypothetically got Sunshine and Flash as well?!
-Gowther Sr and Gowther Jr have recently proved the physical gods aren't "invincible" in this universe, how would Elizabeth with even her mom's status(as SD) be that?! How would Mel as DK?! How would The One with 1/8 or one temporary hax ability of 1 of the "gods"?! And I was actually being modest by going as far as her getting 1/2 of the Graces, from the souls of the AAs that died next to her or being released by mommy from her curse to be able to eventually reach and maintain the form and power level we got to glimpse when she cast the huge triskele in 208.
-That's what I was asking, when was the SD ever portrayed as a fighter by career and not a fantasy parallel to a horrible political leader with too much power on their hands? Ludociel himself implies over and over that Elizabeth has the power to fight and vanquish the demons, Sariel himself said even royal demons would naturally be vulnerable to her Ark, the GC wants her to fight the demons and they're only miffed with her refusing to kill, not her being unable to, which means that we've been getting numerous pieces of foreshadowing that she's supposed to be on par with the 2 dudes you don't mind having immense power cause they're villains; especially since we've been told over and over that she was the only individual who's ever made a strong impression on both of them aside from the "gods".
- According to the fact that Gowther Jr helped his daddy accomplish a relative peace for Britannia with what they pulled and how Merlin was "mourning" Arthur, yes, their codes go quite close to Elizabeth's. There's a small difference there, but Junior seems to be trying to pull a self-sacrificing Elizabeth this chapter, and even Merlin's cryptic chat with Ellie in the chapter they were trying to awaken Arthur implied she wanted a safer, peaceful world to live in and Ellie may have promised her that once upon a time. And recently Arthur did.
-She was less vulnerable when casting HA on the 2 Indura than the Dynamic Duo when engaging them separately or 2 VS Induraspeet. The Derrieri off-guard punch doesn't hold unless you want me claiming that human Elizabeth can 1 VS 1 142k PL Mel.
-The difference is that Elizabeth would focus on helping to stop people like Maelstarossa and 5 C Mel(especially Mel), she wouldn't start clearing the board cause she has nothing better to do. She would focus on the matters that others can't handle or solo, like aoe healing her people or making good of Ban's effort of retrieving Mel's emotions by "persuading" one way or another, 5C Mel to accept his emotions back. She needs her own power to be able to get to him and interact long enough with him to manage that instead of getting knocked out or placed in a "protective" PoD bubble by the moron. You need to read the recent arcs, she's been more "out of distress" than "in" since her awakening and the flashback arc, she wasn't in distress for 1 moment against the army she "converted", she was the main "damage" dealer against the Indura and simply needed added team members, not an actual rescue, she was an equally losing opponent VS the SD & DK as Mel was, she was the one saving the team at Corrand from Mera's nasty tricks with the souls or saving Elaine from certain death since the others seemed to not know how to permanently stop her without killing her; she saved her team from certain death at Chandler's hands, just as much as Glo & Droll did; she staved off Mel's regression and truly dispelled his AM, she saved herself from Mel's stupid domineering 'tude and made her way to the Sins, the Chandler Clones situation is nothing compared to the previous circumstances; she saved the S& D squad from Estarossa's rage when the AAs constantly failed or were disinterested to, so...check again! She's been doing tons of things besides healing or being endangered and not at all by merely talking, so, so much for "she's a healer" or "damsel in distress" staple!
-Hmm, no, they are both equally important and you've got no argument to persuade me of the opposite;
-No, she said she will "stop" him, not chat with him and have a friendly farewell.
1) Only healing on Elizabeth's part won't either;
2)Yes, you are claiming the same Sariel is wrong in thinking and stating that he needs forgiveness from the SD for failing to protect Elizabeth, not just saving Mael; by extension, you're claiming Sariel is wrong in thinking she's still very important to the SD;
3) She purified the grudging souls at Corrand with Hikari Are, not a chat;
4)She's kept her existing and able to reconnect with her original identity, albeit in an extremely cruel way, and the SD's generals/officers seem to believe, despite different personal opinions on her, that the SD wants her back essentially in the same way the DK wants Mel, only the goddesses aren't trying to brainwash or anything direct on Elizabeth. The methods differ, the intention's the same. And now, more than ever, the GC side in the war is in a pinch, Mael has resurfaced corrupted by the DK's power and the SD might not have a direct way to change that; the DD is gone from the picture for what seems like a long while; she technically only has one AA left to fight precisely for her; without BoB/CH Stigma and the Sins are loyal to Elizabeth, not the SD; how do you know she won't try anything to bridge the rift she put between herself and her daughter to save face and her situation?!
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Damn, this argument gets longer every time and we havent gotten anywhere. Im going to summarize my opinion on just the general points, keeping track of this mess of an argument is a real hassle.-Then there's no need to foreshadow Elizabeth proving Sariel's statement less than perfectly accurate. Even though her claim that she would stop Mael can fit in as foreshadowing.
-Because, as you said, they're both villains and one of them suffices in completely overwhelming 1/2 the Sin squad, you're basically expecting more of an asspull from characters who've so far been portrayed as weaker(raw power and ability wise) than Elizabeth's original form than her truly acting like a member of said team. That actually implies bias against her rather than a fair/objective perspective.
- Ban stealing raw strength to get Maelstarossa in the others' manageable range would only manage to completely wreck the writing choice Nakaba made with DayScanor VS AM Meliodas. It'd be senseless for Ban alone to bridge the enormous gap implied in the synopsis of this chapter. Escanor's involvement would damage even more the opinion on Nakaba's writing. Do you you really only expect the guys to be allowed the "invincible" tag and do you have an issue with women(at least that's what I glean from you missing the fact that even my data below the avi says I'm a "she", not a "he" so "she" will be getting on your case if you give "her" the reasons to)?!
-Those skills do portray her as far more versatile, even in activity, than a healer, no matter how hard you hide your head in the sand. Her actions, ever since the beginning, have portrayed her as more than a healer, she didn't heal against Ruin, she broke the enchantment, she didn't only heal against Hendy, she dispelled Dark Nebula which would've killed hundreds of people and wounded to some extent the very villain, she didn't heal against the Indura in the chapter that states from its mere title that she fought them and she proved to be more resilient in a 1 VS 2 when aware of conflict than each of the DD when trying to 1VS 1 or 2 VS 1 Indura, besides, she purified, not merely healed them; she didn't just heal Ban or Diane at Corrand, she purified the human souls' grudge on Helbram and the "intruders" and took away almost all of Melascula's "toys", hard earned toys; she didn't just heal the S&D army against the demon one, she used whatever type of brainwashing skill she has to try and pacify the demons; she didn't just heal Guila when "Estarossa" attacked, she repelled him and purified one of his attacks that could've harmed the S&D squad once Diane exhausted her energy. Aside from Mel VS Escanor, there isn't 1 major conflict where she was present that would have her act as only healer or simply TnJ her way out of it.
-I've listed 6 skills and only 1 skill is directed towards healing; the argument above also tells you you're the one with a skewed vision of her portrayal, she loves preserving life which in essence should be a staple of her clan, given the main uses of Ark; but that doesn't mean she was only shown healing, or that that's her go to tactic, you can't "heal" opponents out of a conflict. She's not portrayed as a standard fighter, and she's not portrayed as a standard healer, this story doesn't actually have black and white angles, when will you learn that?! Ocean and Tornado would only give her the edge to go near Maelstarossa's and 5 C Mel's range, minus the bloodlust and their typical tactics; when did I say she hypothetically got Sunshine and Flash as well?!
-Gowther Sr and Gowther Jr have recently proved the physical gods aren't "invincible" in this universe, how would Elizabeth with even her mom's status(as SD) be that?! How would Mel as DK?! How would The One with 1/4 or one temporary hax ability of 1 of the "gods"?! And I was actually being modest by going as far as her getting 1/2 of the Graces, from the souls of the AAs that died next to her or being released by mommy from her curse to be able to eventually reach and maintain the form and power level we got to glimpse when she cast the huge triskele in 208.
-That's what I was asking, when was the SD ever portrayed as a fighter by career and not a fantasy parallel to a horrible political leader with too much power on their hands? Ludociel himself implies over and over that Elizabeth has the power to fight and vanquish the demons, Sariel himself said even royal demons would naturally be vulnerable to her Ark, the GC wants her to fight the demons and they're only miffed with her refusing to kill, not her being unable to, which means that we've been getting numerous pieces of foreshadowing that she's supposed to be on par with the 2 dudes you don't mind having immense power cause they're villains; especially since we've been told over and over that she was the only individual who's ever made a strong impression on both of them aside from the "gods".
- According to the fact that Gowther Jr helped his daddy accomplish a relative peace for Britannia with what they pulled and how Merlin was "mourning" Arthur, yes, their codes go quite close to Elizabeth's. There's a small difference there, but Junior seems to be trying to pull a self-sacrificing Elizabeth this chapter, and even Merlin's cryptic chat with Ellie in the chapter they were trying to awaken Arthur implied she wanted a safer, peaceful world to live in and Ellie may have promised her that once upon a time. And recently Arthur did.
-She was less vulnerable when casting HA on the 2 Indura than the Dynamic Duo when engaging them separately or 2 VS Induraspeet. The Derrieri off-guard punch doesn't hold unless you want me claiming that human Elizabeth can 1 VS 1 142k PL Mel.
-The difference is that Elizabeth would focus on helping to stop people like Maelstarossa and 5 C Mel(especially Mel), she wouldn't start clearing the board cause she has nothing better to do. She would focus on the matters that others can't handle or solo, like aoe healing her people or making good of Ban's effort of retrieving Mel's emotions by "persuading" one way or another, 5C Mel to accept his emotions back. She needs her own power to be able to get to him and interact long enough with him to manage that instead of getting knocked out or placed in a "protective" PoD bubble by the moron. You need to read the recent arcs, she's been more "out of distress" than "in" since her awakening and the flashback arc, she wasn't in distress for 1 moment against the army she "converted", she was the main "damage" dealer against the Indura and simply needed added team members, not an actual rescue, she was an equally losing opponent VS the SD & DK as Mel was, she was the one saving the team at Corrand from Mera's nasty tricks with the souls or saving Elaine from certain death since the others seemed to not know how to permanently stop her without killing her; she saved her team from certain death at Chandler's hands, just as much as Glo & Droll did; she staved off Mel's regression and truly dispelled his AM, she saved herself from Mel's stupid domineering 'tude and made her way to the Sins, the Chandler Clones situation is nothing compared to the previous circumstances; she saved the S& D squad from Estarossa's rage when the AAs constantly failed or were disinterested to, so...check again! She's been doing tons of things besides healing or being endangered and not at all by merely talking, so, so much for "she's a healer" or "damsel in distress" staple!
-Hmm, no, they are both equally important and you've got no argument to persuade me of the opposite;
-No, she said she will "stop" him, not chat with him and have a friendly farewell.
1) Only healing on Elizabeth's part won't either;
2)Yes, you are claiming the same Sariel is wrong in thinking and stating that he needs forgiveness from the SD for failing to protect Elizabeth, not just saving Mael; by extension, you're claiming Sariel is wrong in thinking she's still very important to the SD;
3) She purified the grudging souls at Corrand with Hikari Are, not a chat;
4)She's kept her existing and able to reconnect with her original identity, albeit in an extremely cruel way, and the SD's generals/officers seem to believe, despite different personal opinions on her, that the SD wants her back essentially in the same way the DK wants Mel, only the goddesses aren't trying to brainwash or anything direct on Elizabeth. The methods differ, the intention's the same. And now, more than ever, the GC side in the war is in a pinch, Mael has resurfaced corrupted by the DK's power and the SD might not have a direct way to change that; the DD is gone from the picture for what seems like a long while; she technically only has one AA left to fight precisely for her; without BoB/CH Stigma and the Sins are loyal to Elizabeth, not the SD; how do you know she won't try anything to bridge the rift she put between herself and her daughter to save face and her situation?!
Sariel
Human,giant, fairy, healing, Gowther, thats what he foreshadowed, he also stated that goddess powers couldnt contribute. Not foreshadowing Oslo means their is more to it(obvious from the start), but those are just the details, we have the main factors listed off, someone absorbing graces is a big factor to miss out on, which means its not likely to happen. If El does something more than heal, it wont be anything bigger than what Oslo just did.
Sariels apology to the SD was for failing his duty as an AA, its like an officer apologizing to the queen, this doesnt even imply the SD is emotionally invested in any of this, let alone coming to help.
Absorbing the graces
Never gonna happen, even if it was possible and she had the knowledge, there is no way she'd be able to absorb them in time to help, unless she was willing to go crazy like Mael which isnt happening. Its taking Mel hours to absorb the same amount of god power, and he's pretty much made for it. On top of that it'd make her too overpowered for the alliance and it'd take the spotlight away from Gowther, both of which arent happening
The Sins
Ban is powered up, he's not the same as he was when AM Mel showed, he could potentially steal Mael's commandments. King and Diane are also powering up, Gowther has his upgrade and is the main in this fight, and yes, Mael completely ignoring Elizabeth means Gowther is more important.
Elizabeth
Nowhere is it implied that Elizabeth is on par with Mel and Mael. I will stipulate that she has become incredibly versatile, perhaps i'll change my opinion on her to a "support" rather than a "healer", im obviously still not going to label her as a combatant because she's never been in a fight before. HA against the Indura was impressive, hardly a fight though, she activated her magic and purified them, there was a struggle but no blows were exchanged. Her staple as a damnsel in distress is still very much active, she had the AA save and shield her after Derriere oneshot her and then had Mel to wake her up, she had the Sins saving her from Chandler after he turned Merlin loli, she had Mel saving her from Estarossa, she had the Sins saving her from Chandler's cheek, and right now she is in the process of being rescued by the Sins after being abducted by Mael. Her "stopping" Mael will likely be through dialogue and healing the real combatants
Females
My apologies for referring to you as a "he", but dont read anything into it, i simply didnt read your data, i'm fine with Diane kicking ass and she's female
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Hating someone is not something I do. Passing comments or any such comments is what I use to try to determine someone’s outlook. Determining someone’s outlook helps me try to better understand someone. How you view a character, how you view a situation, how you express disappointment, anger, emotion through words whether in passing or in focus is what I use to determine what you are “saying” and why you are “saying” it before i try to express to you why I believe it is valid or invalid.
Now I would wish you to give me a better example of her “noble goals going on the back burner” than her staying with Mel. Her “noble goal” was to stop the war between the clans. After she got with Mel her noble goal was to stop the war between the clans. Where do you find indication that this declined? Furthermore, she took the enemy of her people as her lover? Did she now? A man who chose to ally himself with his people’s enemy to stop a destructive conflict. Was Eli supposed to follow her peoples actions and behavior and hate her people’s enemies? Does that make her a “good person” to you?
It seems you have your facts mixed up.
Deri was already willing and was in fact negotiating with Eli. They had come to a decision. After, deri threw in Mel as a bonus to which Eli refused “without a second thought.” Deri stated “I get it” before Eli raised her hand to shake on it. See the bottom left panel? The “fwip.” They had come to an acceptable agreement. Ludo destroyed it. That is what was depicted.
Regardless, I believe there is an even more fundamental issue here.
This is what you had once told me. Why then are you here advocating she betray the man who chose to fight alongside her and her people to accomplish her goal? To abandon her lover and ally to be killed for any reason and especially no reason. Would that make her a “good person” to you?
“Dragged her country into a war” huh. You mean the country that had already been attacked and was geared for self defense upon the attackers who were amassing troops for continued domination at a country they had taken over? This war had already started. Her goal was for her and the six to stop Mel who upon regressing became disconcerned of many matters not regarding their curse. Then ludo came into the picture. Now, she had to take him into consideration. Especially so considering he was inhabiting the body of the first princess of said country. You indicate that Eli became more selfish in that she is now more narrow minded for Mel correct? Had this been the case what then would her next actions be when given the chance to stop Mel with escanor ludo and Merlin? What she did was choose to go with that country she doomed to die to protect them instead of going to that lover she so narrowly minded abandoned everyone else for no?
How and why are you justifying yourself with this baseless hypothetical you have constructed? Mel would stop the war would he? Mel would kill his father would he? Now, upon Mel’s awakening what was it that he told the six? “I don’t want to have to kill you” I believe he said. What were his actions regarding Arthur? He told him to begone and didn’t bat an eye to his endangerment and allowed cusack to kill him I believe it was. What were his orders to the demon army regarding their continued advancement? None. He did not impede it I believe. Mel appeared to be one that would not hesitate to kill anyone who got on his way even comrades. By what contextual evidence do you have to validate your claim that Mel would care to stop the war?That he would kill his father who would be more or less on par with him? What has Mel shown for you to draw the conclusion that Mel, as he is now, would enact the best conclusion?
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People went from debating Elizabeth's PL to character assassinating her as a traitor because she dares go against orders of her mother and her race for someone she knew she could change 
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And it led to a brutal wa5r so horrible more lives would have likely been spared if they both died.People went from debating Elizabeth's PL to character assassinating her as a traitor because she dares go against orders of her mother and her race for someone she knew she could change
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There was already a war going on between the demons and goddesses long before that with fairies, giants and humans in the crossfire, so the lives that were lost would not have be spared. Rather it actually lead to the penultimate end of the war for 3000 years and time of peace. So it was a win win
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The Fairies, giants and humans weren't involved until Mel left though.
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The logic in this illudes me. Here’s my logic tell me if it’s unreasonable or invalid.
More lives would have been spared if the two died before the war so he that the war couldn’t start right? Okay say they had. Now you have two sides killing each other for sport and military conquest. Had their been a war many people would have died at greater speeds and quantities but now it is a long drawn out process where people are killed slowly accumulating more and more hate until it has rose to a precipice coupled with the declining military power all out war is declared before forces dwindle further.
Let’s not forget that Mel’s turn broke the “balance” between the two clans which was taken advantage of to declare war. Now that Mel is dead we have... the same exact position no?
Then we have after centuries upon centuries upon centuries of killing each other they come to a truce for reasons?
What do you think?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Now why did they join?
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And how many more lives would have been born due to a less heated conflict whihc didn't involve the other clans.
They were brainwashed by the goddess.
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Oh so their military wouldn’t be on as much of a decline because it would have even more replenishment of youths fed their ideals. Perpetual conflict till all out war no?
So the other clans didn’t hate the dc too huh. They were stripped of their own free will. At least according to the non existent evidence you have. Am I wrong?
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I mean guts does have a point, the whole reason that the war got this bad was because Mel fell in love with Elizabeth and because Elizabeth reciprocated the feelings as well. Had that not happened odds are the other clans wouldn't have been dragged into the war.
Objectively Mel staying single does have more lives saved. But to me it doesn't matter. The Demon clan was evil so you can't blame Mel for joining the good side. However, the goddess clan also turned out to be evil so really it doesn't matter which side he fought for. Literally the only ethical way to win would've been to fight for neither clan.
Objectively Mel staying single does have more lives saved. But to me it doesn't matter. The Demon clan was evil so you can't blame Mel for joining the good side. However, the goddess clan also turned out to be evil so really it doesn't matter which side he fought for. Literally the only ethical way to win would've been to fight for neither clan.
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I just commented on that point. How were they dragged into the war. Was their no consent?The situation wasn’t worse. An advantage was taken and they all decided to gang up on the dc. Where are you getting this “dragged” from?
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or until both sides get the balls to ask their leader why they are fighting. Rather then join one genocidal side for another and just cause everyone they grew up with, eveyrone they had known or make all the hope put into you meaningless.
So the other option was thatt hey all banded together because of attacks from the demon clan that we have no evidence of ever having occurred before the Holy war, is that what you're getting at?
By the by, this isn't the DC vs GC thread, but the elizabeth thread.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Why weren't they fighting before hand if the demon weren't already attacking them. Why would they have gotten involved.
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How long would that take hm? You don’t know. Hope for? To utterly eliminate all opposition?
So dolor and gloxinia were brainwashed into joining the gc? So you are telling me that it is more reasonable that the alliance was due to brainwashing rather then consent? You think that having little evidence of the dc attacking the other clans before the war is evidence to state that they were brainwashed rather than extrapolating that the other clans joining the gc against the dc may indicate their own grievances? So my answer is yes that is more or less what I am getting at.
Yes why indeed. We either have powerful kings brainwashed or they consented due to their own grievances. The fact that you disregard the second point is rather bizzare
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Also to comment on Elizabeth lack of moral character. She choose to further a holy war when a potential compromise and end was insight purely due to selfish desire and didn't even try the diplomatic route with Zeldris just because diplomacy would have required allowing Mel to become demon king even if that could have ended the war.
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According to the manga the Goddesses only included the other clans as a direct result of Mel’s leaving. It doesn’t say that the other clans joined by their own intuition. If Mel never left then the other clans would’ve been left out. Thus less death because there wouldn’t even be a consent option in the first place. Plus it had to be the Goddesses plan.
Even if it wasn’t the goddess clan’s plan the other clans wouldn’t jump in. The war had been going on for years upon years, yet the other clans only jumped in after Mel left. Which means it’s all contingent on Mel
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