Have you mixed up that role with another? All it does is prevent a mafia from voting his teammates, don‘t see how that in any way goes against discussion or is in any way related to Mafia Gambler?
Have you mixed up that role with another? All it does is prevent a mafia from voting his teammates, don‘t see how that in any way goes against discussion or is in any way related to Mafia Gambler?
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Yeah why I put in Gambler back then. Was an interesting tool for mafia but not too strong. More of those could be nice, and let hosts have more approaches to making a mafia team with interesting actions and strats to pull(or make em all vanilla )
Maybe even one more powerhouse that can be equal to Janitor and Assassin(okay maybe not equal to Assassin that‘s very unlikely).
Like I said years ago, the Slanderer would be such a powerhouse to the Mafia. Janitor hides night kills, assassin can kill at day (for which townies finally got a protecting role due Martyr) and Slanderer could slander targets changing turning their Status on this head (innocent becomes guilty, guilty becomes innocent) for one night. It is not too OP because it can a) be blocked like Janitor and Assassin b) redirected by BK c) nobody would notice if not a det is looking at the exact same target as the slanderer in the very same night. So while it could be powerful it would only outplay its full use by letting dets live, something mafias really don't want to do. So it comes with a natural disadvantage besides its unique way of trying to mess with Det work as said messing only works if he happens to be on the same target as an insane or sane det, since naive or paranoid would not care about the slander. I think we should try the role out at least once. Just to see if it s really OP or maybe even too weak as all dets died too early and the slander action doesn't mean that much anymore.
I really do, and would really want it be approved. Mainly because, this would allow mafias to actually claim strong town roles in larger games. Like how demon claimed Spy in OPM and got killed next night, with a Mafia Doc they could reliably try faking good roles and keep themselves alive from the other mafia team. My last game as mafia I think none of us wanted to claim anything strong because of that too.
More freedom in claims is just one of many advantages I see with giving that role to them, but guess there‘s also viable concerns about it.
I really do, and would really want it be approved. Mainly because, this would allow mafias to actually claim strong town roles in larger games. Like how demon claimed Spy in OPM and got killed next night, with a Mafia Doc they could reliably try faking good roles and keep themselves alive from the other mafia team. My last game as mafia I think none of us wanted to claim anything strong because of that too.
More freedom in claims is just one of many advantages I see with giving that role to them, but guess there‘s also viable concerns about it.
I still believe the Mafia Slanderer to be a great role, up there with Janitor and Daytime Assassin and Mafia Detective and one that could really make a difference for Mafia to be able to win more games without having to count on Townies fucking it up three days in a row.
So, again Slanderer works best with detectives on board. As we have seen plenty of them keep surviving long enough to matter. A Slanderer can be used defensively like a mafia doc "protecting" an important mafia role by making him or her innocent for the night however if the slanderer dies and people see the slanderer used his action on the same person 3 times in a row then that is suspicious. Same if the slanderer only protects his own people, jumping from one to another. Ofc there is always the way to play him aggressively and hope that either someday a townie gets lynched for being seen as guilty by a sane det or that when the slanderer dies his book of his past activities cast doubt on some of the townie claims.
Also here is another investigative role(s) to counter the Mafia Slanderer, Mafia Boss, Traitor, Death Miller and such:
Easy and simple. Basically a Det who does not get tricked by the "fake" status of some roles or the status change of the Mafia Slanderer. We can ofc make it a night action and ofc we can have a "mind" status for Journalist just like for Dets. Aka a sane Journalist who works as above or an insane one who will always be told the opposite of the real status of his target, thus making a mafia boss innocent again as would be all mafias and other guilty roles. A paranoid who always gets guilty no matter what and a naive journalist who always gets innocent no matter what.
However if we keep day action on journalist, the mafia needs something to protect themselves from it and plenty of other day action townie roles like badass cowboy or prosecutor besides the daytime assassin. Here comes the day action blocking role of Mafia the Mafia Bouncer:
Basically a role that can be blocked by townies in the night phase to prevent the day block by him.
Also I would like to change the Townie Martyr as I believe his constant non-stop never-ending changes of target during the day phase is too strong. Either we turn him into a version of Mafia Bouncer meaning he has to chose ONE target during the night phase and it will be protect next day phase, though that is really weak in my opinion which is why it is fine for mafia but not for town, or my fav opinion we make the Martyr a "group protector" meaning each day phase he has to chose up to 3 targets and if any of them gets killed or lynched he dies in their stead. Still makes him strong enough as an Illusion breaker and lynch/daykill-preventer without making him too strong or able to jump from a sure lynch victim away to save his own life.
Would the hosts accept such a role change to the Martyr and if so what of those two sounds better or perhaps a mix of them like a group protector who has to choose his targets in the night phase before the day phase?
Also what are the thoughts of a daytime assassin as 3rd role who can only kill at day? Would be like serial killer but during the day phase which might be easier even with a mafia bouncer and townie martyr in it. Though then with such a role a townie day action blocking role would be interesting to look into.
Don‘t have much time these days, so will just write general thoughts without going too deep into it.
Slanderer not too fond of, but it‘s alright. Gives somewhat protection against Dets but not sure if that‘s needed. Neutral on it.
Journalist and Bouncer I don‘t like, a bit too daytime focused for me. Most actions should still happen on nights.
As for Martyr, if anything I‘d change him to a role that just has to be used, the player has to PM when have it active or not. Basically when active has the Martyr die for the next person who dies at day. Be it an assassination, lynch or daykill. This way wouldn‘t have to select targets. But would make the combo with Cowboy very bad. Not sure.
Don‘t have much time these days, so will just write general thoughts without going too deep into it.
Slanderer not too fond of, but it‘s alright. Gives somewhat protection against Dets but not sure if that‘s needed. Neutral on it.
Journalist and Bouncer I don‘t like, a bit too daytime focused for me. Most actions should still happen on nights.
As for Martyr, if anything I‘d change him to a role that just has to be used, the player has to PM when have it active or not. Basically when active has the Martyr die for the next person who dies at day. Be it an assassination, lynch or daykill. This way wouldn‘t have to select targets. But would make the combo with Cowboy very bad. Not sure.
Believe me with that record the Slanderer will be careful who he slanders each night. Plus even if he does he needs a det to investigate as a journalist would ignore the slander. So unlike Janitor, Asassin and Mafia Det that role is depending on townie roles and actions to work properly.
As for Journalist and Bouncer, we can make it that they use their actions at night but the journalist gets his result told at the start of the next night phase to prevent him from being an OP det in case he survived till the end and knows he is a (sane) journalist (if we go with that) and can find any mafia with a guilty verdict/prove townie with an innocent one. Bouncer just make it a night action which effect gets used on the following day phase and then prostitute can block it or BK can block or redirect it.
The Martyr active/no-active pm makes good sense to me. it would kill his Illusion breaker ability on the Shapeshifter completely though. I still wonder why people find that role complicated, it is just a hider role that kills&replace his target with an Illusion which is so perfect that the player can still talk, vote and do actions till somebody uses an action on him or he dies/gets lynched and then everyone finds out that he was a fake.
Good to see you don't hate a 3rd party Assassin.^^
Im still not a fan of roles that mess with the info of night actions.
BK is like the limit for me, cause the user cannot really control it, but roles that change info and kind of "ignore" previous rules about roles... dont like it. So Slanderer would be a No from me.
Journalist would only make sense in game full of millers, and thats not something normal save in a troll game, so thats a No from me too.
Im Neutral on Mafia Doc, it could work in certain set ups, and as Gry said it could give mafia a much better grasp at positioning and claiming when theres several killing parties.
The only reason I dont give it green light is because this precisely messes with the poor TP killer
Changing the Martyr is quite needed tbh. I also like the Daytime SK idea, specially for big games o/
And if we make it that the Slanderer is also random? Like he can invite 3 people and only one gets his status changed but he doesn't know who into what and when he dies the townies get told his invites and who was targeted?
I'm not really a fan of these roles. The slanderer seems like a really underwhelming role. If you cut off reliable information for town, you either invalidate the capacities of dets in normal games or design a role that only works in niche games, at which point you're designing a game around a role and we have game mechanics for that. So no. Journalist is then essentially an invincible det that invalidates the slanderer, so also no. Bouncer is niche again, so no.
I agree with the martyr change. I strongly disagree with daytime assassin. Why would you want that? The mafia version is op and you could just go with a single one of those as solo mafia if you want it. No need to make it TP.
I still believe the Mafia Slanderer to be a great role, up there with Janitor and Daytime Assassin and Mafia Detective and one that could really make a difference for Mafia to be able to win more games without having to count on Townies fucking it up three days in a row.
So, again Slanderer works best with detectives on board. As we have seen plenty of them keep surviving long enough to matter. A Slanderer can be used defensively like a mafia doc "protecting" an important mafia role by making him or her innocent for the night however if the slanderer dies and people see the slanderer used his action on the same person 3 times in a row then that is suspicious. Same if the slanderer only protects his own people, jumping from one to another. Ofc there is always the way to play him aggressively and hope that either someday a townie gets lynched for being seen as guilty by a sane det or that when the slanderer dies his book of his past activities cast doubt on some of the townie claims.
The least the variables present in a role the better, as far as I'm concerned. Dets already have four sanities, Bosses, Millers and Death Millers, and the ever-present threat of the dreaded Barkeeper redirection to make their results untrustworthy enough. Is it necessary to add more ways to make their results unreliable?
Also here is another investigative role(s) to counter the Mafia Slanderer, Mafia Boss, Traitor, Death Miller and such:
Easy and simple. Basically a Det who does not get tricked by the "fake" status of some roles or the status change of the Mafia Slanderer. We can ofc make it a night action and ofc we can have a "mind" status for Journalist just like for Dets. Aka a sane Journalist who works as above or an insane one who will always be told the opposite of the real status of his target, thus making a mafia boss innocent again as would be all mafias and other guilty roles. A paranoid who always gets guilty no matter what and a naive journalist who always gets innocent no matter what.
Wait, why was the first suggestion a role that makes Dets less reliable so they can't carry the game on their own, and the second suggestion is an even more powerful Det?
Daytime investigations that confirm your target's "real" innocence no matter what... Way too good if you ask me, both with and without the daytime role blocker. Making it a night action is a little better, the sanities mess it up a bit more, but neither solves the issue that it's a better and stronger Det, so - same question as above. Do we need better and stronger Dets?
However if we keep day action on journalist, the mafia needs something to protect themselves from it and plenty of other day action townie roles like badass cowboy or prosecutor besides the daytime assassin. Here comes the day action blocking role of Mafia the Mafia Bouncer:
Basically a role that can be blocked by townies in the night phase to prevent the day block by him.
Also I would like to change the Townie Martyr as I believe his constant non-stop never-ending changes of target during the day phase is too strong. Either we turn him into a version of Mafia Bouncer meaning he has to chose ONE target during the night phase and it will be protect next day phase, though that is really weak in my opinion which is why it is fine for mafia but not for town, or my fav opinion we make the Martyr a "group protector" meaning each day phase he has to chose up to 3 targets and if any of them gets killed or lynched he dies in their stead. Still makes him strong enough as an Illusion breaker and lynch/daykill-preventer without making him too strong or able to jump from a sure lynch victim away to save his own life.
Would the hosts accept such a role change to the Martyr and if so what of those two sounds better or perhaps a mix of them like a group protector who has to choose his targets in the night phase before the day phase?
Also what are the thoughts of a daytime assassin as 3rd role who can only kill at day? Would be like serial killer but during the day phase which might be easier even with a mafia bouncer and townie martyr in it. Though then with such a role a townie day action blocking role would be interesting to look into.
Mafia Bouncer is alright, I guess. I can't say I see many scenarios where it would really be useful since almost every day role is either single-use (so you're just delaying the action if you get the right one before they shoot/prosecute) or essentially too weak to block (Martyr/Politician). I'd also like to assume there wouldn't be that many day roles in a single game to warrant a day role blocker, but that's just arbitrary wishful thinking on my part
As for nerfing Martyr, has there even been one instance where it's been used efficiently? And if there was, did it mess up the game balance? It's fine as it is, in my opinion. It has its niche of combo interactions and is otherwise very situational and reliant on luck and intuition (read: it's almost useless) on its own.
The Illusion-breaking issue has already been addressed by suggesting to make only a successful protection (resulting in the Martyr's death) count as a day action, so they can switch as many times as they want, but it won't break anything until it "connects". Third-party Assassin is mostly fine for me, as a more powerful third-party killer. Just probably better to keep it for larger games, yeah...
What about a Mafia Version of the Barkeeper but with a possible negative effect to the Mafia?
So basically like the barkeeper but instead of finding out a role the Distiller gets so drunk of his own moonshine that he reveals a role of his group to the invited drunkard. I changed the last part of Barkeeper from not knowing the identity of the visitor but knowing what effect he got to knowing who got hit but not by what effect. Ofc we could change it to not knowing the identity of the drunkest visitor and knowing what effect affected him or her. Since it is like the Barkeeper I think it wont be too powerful as it cannot block or redirect a certain target.
All it does is prevent a mafia from voting his teammates, don‘t see how that in any way goes against discussion or is in any way related to Mafia Gambler? 
