One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[shadow22]

Man zoro has defeated effortlessly an executive of DD while Sanji got his ass handle to him by the same level exectutive, I understand your butthurt but there was zero mentions of zoro in this chapter so keep your pain to yourself.

As to the spoilers they look super fake but if they are legit I’m pretty surprised by the amount of content. Revs vs admirals alone worth at least a chapter, same to calamities and Moriah. I think a lot of fans predicted Moriah to come back in this arc, the only question now if he will survie BB and make it there in time, I guess he could have some shadow hax travel abilities likeDD with clouds. Anyway amazing overview of things going on around the world by BB and all that info counts for me as 10 chapters if legit. Amazing.

just because vergo and pika are both seats doesnt mean they are both on the same level I mean vergo was hyped up to be on another level than pika
https://orojackson.com/one-piece-th.../vergo-was-the-right-hand-of-doflamingo.2249/
if law accepted the heart seat he would be on the same level as trebol , diamante, or pika but law is stronger than them

 

[shadow22]

Sure, but the fight was not finished and of course, sanji was injured. I'd say its technically a feat for sanji given the circumstances but it remains the case that the fight was not finished. It is understandable that sanji lost to doflamingo though its not like sanji has much to show for it. And the bit against oven was fun but it doesn't tell us that much about sanji's strength either. Is it really THAT surprising that sanji could land a kick on an unsuspecting enemy?

As for zoro and pica... what difference does that make? That is simply how pica fought which is perfectly valid. And even then zoro had a mostly comfortable win against him.

And ultimately.... zoro hasn't used his azura yet. Or whatever he has now instead of that. Meanwhile sanji has been abusing his diable jambe for a while. I'd argue it'd take at least the raid suit for him to actually match zoro. Which is valid of course but if this is the case it does strongly suggest an important difference between them up to very recently.

the thing that hypes sanji up was that he moved so fast to jump in kick oven get chiffon out and back to the cart and that oven didnt notice him and sanjis kick had done way more damage to oven that nijis kick when niji used the raid suit
Sanji literally hit oven from the front, coming in between him and Pound. Also, observation haki exists. You might argue that Oven didn't feel threatened and wasnt using it at the time, but he should at least have been able to discern Sanji's location after getting hit. Oven isn't weak by any means, speed blitzing him from the front is absolutely a worthy feat to be mentioned.

 

[King Moe]

Sure, but the fight was not finished and of course, sanji was injured. I'd say its technically a feat for sanji given the circumstances but it remains the case that the fight was not finished. It is understandable that sanji lost to doflamingo though its not like sanji has much to show for it. And the bit against oven was fun but it doesn't tell us that much about sanji's strength either. Is it really THAT surprising that sanji could land a kick on an unsuspecting enemy?

As for zoro and pica... what difference does that make? That is simply how pica fought which is perfectly valid. And even then zoro had a mostly comfortable win against him.

And ultimately.... zoro hasn't used his azura yet. Or whatever he has now instead of that. Meanwhile sanji has been abusing his diable jambe for a while. I'd argue it'd take at least the raid suit for him to actually match zoro. Which is valid of course but if this is the case it does strongly suggest an important difference between them up to very recently.

Still show Sanji worth to stand up and fight till the end though.

Kinda is. He ran and hid in Stone, showing he wasn't much a physical fighter and confident in himself to begin with.

So? Sanji haven't even uses his strongest attacks in Diamble Jiable format either along with Haki. He has more potential as Zoro, but Idk about Asura move as seem like a spur of the moment move as Oda doesn't talk about Iraq hinted it much. Know he has potential, but to not use it much on serious opponents like Fujitora and Hawkins, gauging it can't really stomp them instantly. Seem more based on preferences than fact.

Sanji in a raid suit means nothing as kinda like Zoro with swords as they use equipment and harness it as their own. If anything it's still put them equal especially chapters ago Oda emphasized more by making them dream beating each other up. Just saying.

 

[kkck]

the thing that hypes sanji up was that he moved so fast to jump in kick oven get chiffon out and back to the cart and that oven didnt notice him and sanjis kick had done way more damage to oven that nijis kick when niji used the raid suit
Sanji literally hit oven from the front, coming in between him and Pound. Also, observation haki exists. You might argue that Oven didn't feel threatened and wasnt using it at the time, but he should at least have been able to discern Sanji's location after getting hit. Oven isn't weak by any means, speed blitzing him from the front is absolutely a worthy feat to be mentioned.

Its not a real speedblitz, come on. Surely its a speed feat but sanji came at oven from an angle (we see the angle from sanji's original position relative to where oven was) while oven was distracted attacking someone else. As for how sanji's kick compares... oven blocked niji's kick so how do we compare them? Obviously sanji wouldn't have an easy time landing such a hit if he was facing oven head on like his brother was. Oven is of course very powerful but I wouldn't make that much out of what sanji did. What sanji did tells us a bit about sanji's speed but nothing about sanji's overall power nor how he compares to oven.

 

[kkck]

Still show Sanji worth to stand up and fight till the end though.

Kinda is. He ran and hid in Stone, showing he wasn't much a physical fighter and confident in himself to begin with.

So? Sanji haven't even uses his strongest attacks in Diamble Jiable format either along with Haki. He has more potential as Zoro, but Idk about Asura move as seem like a spur of the moment move as Oda doesn't talk about Iraq hinted it much. Know he has potential, but to not use it much on serious opponents like Fujitora and Hawkins, gauging it can't really stomp them instantly. Seem more based on preferences than fact.

Sanji in a raid suit means nothing as kinda like Zoro with swords as they use equipment and harness it as their own. If anything it's still put them equal especially chapters ago Oda emphasized more by making them dream beating each other up. Just saying.

Ok but... what does this tell us about sanji's strength other than it is considerable? We can't even make that strong a case that sanji would have won had he been fine.

Diable jambe has always been sanji's triumph card. Sure, he has more techniques of it but in turn zoro has managed entirely without using anything other than his santoryu. That does not speak well of sanji at all.

Of course the raid suit tells us something. If that is sanji's next boost then that would be a pretty strong indication that until now there has been a more than significant difference between the two that the suit will address. Which is not to say the raid suit is "cheating" or anything like that.

 

[King Moe]

Isn't it different with those kind of DF ? I mean it is easy to cut mochi or something else. Isn't it different with actuel Diamond ?
Or what if Shiliew uses haki as well, it will be different ??
In any case, being invisible will not be a big help since Zoro can also use Observation Haki...

After his performance to fail in blocking nails despite having Haki, I think it still be issue especially he is the least trained in Observation Haki in the Monster Trio after all.

 

[redhairSH]

Ok but... what does this tell us about sanji's strength other than it is considerable? We can't even make that strong a case that sanji would have won had he been fine.

Diable jambe has always been sanji's triumph card. Sure, he has more techniques of it but in turn zoro has managed entirely without using anything other than his santoryu. That does not speak well of sanji at all.

Of course the raid suit tells us something. If that is sanji's next boost then that would be a pretty strong indication that until now there has been a more than significant difference between the two that the suit will address. Which is not to say the raid suit is "cheating" or anything like that.

Sanji hasn't been seen with the best feats since the timeskip, and he's spamming his diable jambe, while zoro hasn't been shown using asura at all. This is all very true. No arguments there. Sanji was going toe to toe with vergo, but vergo did hurt his leg, but sanji also went into that fight injured. Sanji lost to doflamingo in their brief skirmish, but he was more caught off guard by being puppet controlled, which even happend to one of whitebeards commanders.

The thing is, the reason he is spamming diable jambe could be that he now has something much better or stronger to use. Also, he wasn't confirmed to have been using haki along with his diable jambe against vergo or doflamingo, so it's possible sanji wasn't going all out on either fight, i still think doflaming would stomp him, but it's possible he could have taken out vergo.

Were vergo and pica equal in strength to use as a gauge for how strong zoro and sanji are? Hard to know, for all we know pica could have had weak CoA while vergo had a super strong CoA and Tekkai kenpo. And it has been confirmed by luffy that it's much easier to use CoA against blunt attacks than sharp ones, let alone sharp haki attacks.

Until we see zoro and sanji go all out, using everything, which we haven't since the timeskip, it'll be hard to know which is stronger. I used to think zoro and luffy were like equal, but gear 4th seems to me to tip the balancw in luffy favor there. But for all we know zoro and sanji have each been hiding trump cards of their own.

 

[hokageji]

No in the end its not real diamond its just an ability, COA>DF, if he used COA as well it will depend on who has the stronger haki.

Haki adds to hardness at best, it doesnt negate it. If Zoro uses haki and slashes, it cannot just negate the diamond's strength. Zoro's hardness will have to be higher than that of a diamond, in other words stronger armament haki than a diamond to cut it. Which is why Shilew getting Jozu's ability is still an interesting thing.

 

[Shasha23]

Haki adds to hardness at best, it doesnt negate it. If Zoro uses haki and slashes, it cannot just negate the diamond's strength. Zoro's hardness will have to be higher than that of a diamond, in other words stronger armament haki than a diamond to cut it. Which is why Shilew getting Jozu's ability is still an interesting thing.

My response disproving you was deleted it seems...
Anyway please dont lie, its misinformation like this that gets people confused, haki allows you to damage the user, if you tried to take a COA attack thinking your ability will save you you'll get damaged, that's what haki does, and whatever you think haki does against ability is wrong buddy!
LOL If you think im wrong show me once where COA didn't damage an ability user trying to tank the hit with their ability defence.....you cant because it has never happened in the manga and never will, so please don't use your own misunderstanding and try and pass it off as fact since its wrong!!
look @nik87 and @Lexusflame are already confused because of your false claims!

If Jozu ever tried to block a COA slash from Zoro with his diamond body he would get slashed THAT'S HOW COA WORKS

 

[nik87]

@Shasha23 Consider the option that you might not be correct regarding that.
We cant know this for sure and claim facts since it fits our argument, we have to wait it out and see how it will end up. I understand what you are saying and CoA allows to deal greater damage to DF users.
However, i doubt Oda introduced probably the hardest element in OP world as DF and it will be bypassed as easily as using CoA, which every top dog in New World has.
I dont know if flying slashes can be Haki infused but if Mihawk's was during MF war then Jozu took it on without a scratch.

It's best to wait it out and see how the diamond fruit will be dealt with.

 

[Shasha23]

@Shasha23 Consider the option that you might not be correct regarding that.
We cant know this for sure and claim facts since it fits our argument, we have to wait it out and see how it will end up. I understand what you are saying and CoA allows to deal greater damage to DF users.
However, i doubt Oda introduced probably the hardest element in OP world as DF and it will be bypassed as easily as using CoA, which every top dog in New World has.
I dont know if flying slashes can be Haki infused but if Mihawk's was during MF war then Jozu took it on without a scratch.

It's best to wait it out and see how the diamond fruit will be dealt with.

Until something is shown in the manga you cant say it and claim its true, the very fact that COA has been shown to work against ability defences means its true , my statement is correct and the manga has shown my statement to be true!
You cant go around claiming things that aren't true and saying "we have to wait for the manga to show us", its better if we move on from this now, i don't want to keep repeating myself since what im saying is true and the manga says so!

It doesn't matter what believes you guys hope for the fact is COA attacks will work on a DF defence, if Jozu took a COA attack from Zoro he would get cut unless he defended himself with COA.

Again you cant wait and hope for something to happen to try and and claim your incorrect statements are true, Oda has clearly shown and has gone to great lengths to explain COA damages people depending on ability defences i can't believe you people can claim this false things and try and act like your right

 

[jaymizzo]

Until something is shown in the manga you cant say it and claim its true, the very fact that COA has been shown to work against ability defences means its true , my statement is correct and the manga has shown my statement to be true!
You cant go around claiming things that aren't true and saying "we have to wait for the manga to show us", its better if we move on from this now, i don't want to keep repeating myself since what im saying is true and the manga says so!

It doesn't matter what believes you guys hope for the fact is COA attacks will work on a DF defence, if Jozu took a COA attack from Zoro he would get cut unless he defended himself with COA.

Again you cant wait and hope for something to happen to try and and claim your incorrect statements are true, Oda has clearly shown and has gone to great lengths to explain COA damages people depending on ability defences i can't believe you people can claim this false things and try and act like your right

That's true
We have also been given further workings of CoA..
We have seen superior CoA win against weaker CoA in Luffys fight with Katakuri. We have seen what a strong CoA supplementing a strong defensive ability can do in Luffys fight against Cracker. We have seen what a strong CoA with no ability required can take no damage from a weaker CoA hit in Luffy and Sanji kicking BM.

Haki is basically gives you the ability to hurt DF unless you are Katakuri whereby seastone or superior CoO is your only option.

 

[nik87]

@Shasha23 This is starting to feel like the arguments I had with Hannibal... The problem of thinking that you are absolutely right...
You may be right, I am not saying you are not. I say you could be wrong about it and try to be open to that possibility and it will provide a better discussion than holding the "I am right" attitude and slamming all opposing views because "they are wrong".

I am not acting like I am right, I am just of the opinion that Diamond fruit's hardness cannot be bypassed by simply using CoA. For a swordsman to be able to cut Jozu, he must first be able to cut diamond level hardness and secondary have a superior CoA than Jozu.
Again, its my opinion and it may as well be wrong and what you claim may be right. What you speak of has worked so far but none of those elements had diamond grade hardness.

 

[Shasha23]

@Shasha23 This is starting to feel like the arguments I had with Hannibal... The problem of thinking that you are absolutely right...
You may be right, I am not saying you are not. I say you could be wrong about it and try to be open to that possibility and it will provide a better discussion than holding the "I am right" attitude and slamming all opposing views because "they are wrong".

I am not acting like I am right, I am just of the opinion that Diamond fruit's hardness cannot be bypassed by simply using CoA. For a swordsman to be able to cut Jozu, he must first be able to cut diamond level hardness and secondary have a superior CoA than Jozu.
Again, its my opinion and it may as well be wrong and what you claim may be right. What you speak of has worked so far but none of those elements had diamond grade hardness.

Im absolutely right since im using manga facts not speculating!
"You may be right, I am not saying you are not" dude i am right, just accept what COA was designed to be and move on, you guys are being difficult for the sake of being difficult, i can take the high road on this because I AM RIGHT!

Yes you can have opinions but you cant then go claiming your opinions is right when it isn't, manga facts prove your claims are wrong so why are you even defending them?
Have your opinions, but then when your opinion is wrong don't try and defend it, just admit your wrong so we can all move on!

 

[nik87]

@Shasha23 Bruh... You will look pretty dumb if it turns out that you werent correct about it. Even if you are right about it, its cool. I dont know why this is such a heated debate from your side in the first place.

I can tell you this, you are not absolutely right. Manga facts didnt ever show anyone bypassing diamond fruit by using CoA, its what you are assuming. Until its shown relax and consider the possibilities. I didnt claim my opinion to be right, thats another assumption of yours. My opinion can be right or wrong, same as yours. I am not defending my opinion or yours, i am saying that we dont have facts regarding diamond fruit's interaction with Haki.

If all it takes to beat diamond fruit is using CoA then the fruit is lame af. I strongly doubt that it will be that easy.

 

[Shasha23]

@Shasha23 Bruh... You will look pretty dumb if it turns out that you werent correct about it. Even if you are right about it, its cool. I dont know why this is such a heated debate from your side in the first place.

I can tell you this, you are not absolutely right. Manga facts didnt ever show anyone bypassing diamond fruit by using CoA, its what you are assuming. Until its shown relax and consider the possibilities. I didnt claim my opinion to be right, thats another assumption of yours. My opinion can be right or wrong, same as yours. I am not defending my opinion or yours, i am saying that we dont have facts regarding diamond fruit's interaction with Haki.

If all it takes to beat diamond fruit is using CoA then the fruit is lame af. I strongly doubt that it will be that easy.

How so, the manga says im right!

I have repeatedly asked you guys for your evidence to disprove me and you cant provide it because there is none, so how so am i not 100% correct, please explain. Im not assuming anything, im using each and every instance where an ability defence was bypassed by a COA attack, and in each and every instance the COA user damaged the ability user!
Well your opinion is wrong since it goes against manga facts and evidence!

Can you go read what Ray-san said COA can do please before you continues this, and go read each and every time an ability user was hit with COA damaging them!

 

[Dabanagaga]

If any and all DF based defence is bypassed by COA, then Bege would be able to tank a hit from Big Mom as he did in his Castle form? Well, who knows, but she seems to be casualy G4 Luffy's tier at an absolute bare minimum if you wank her down, and the same hits were basically sending Doffy across the island and I don't think that Bege has same durability as Doffy. Since she used COA on her hit, while actually being mad and healthy, she basically bypassed his DF defense, that was the same as hitting him in his normal form. This is one instance where DF ability makes the user more durable than he would normay be, even if an opponent is using haki, as if the DF is increasing base deff, unlike logia or some paramecia like Luffy's, they do not increase their base deff but just gives them an unique intagiability or some effect resistance. Also, zoans also increase users base deff with this thinking, so just because one can use haki on you, even if you have a Zoan, your tankiness should be still better with it against it, than without it. And so we come to Jozu's DF. It increases, or at least should, his base deff, as it is an ability which in simple terms increases your durability by making your body out of a sturdier, harder material than living flesh and not just giving it unique charasteristics of fluidity/intagiability as Logia's do. To have something as COA to just completely counter any tankiness of any DF user does not seem even a viable tought to be honest, but if that is the case - not a smart choice for Oda. When users COA is simply harder than the opponents DF granted hardness (not a completely valid term maybe), then it should deal damage to another, that would be a simple and logical conclusion. If I am somewhere wrong, I would gladly hear your opinion and correct mine.

 

[M3J]

Jozu's diamond body is a huge question as it seems to be a defensive sort of ability. Would haki be able to get past his diamond defense? Wasn't Mihawk's slash useless? No reason to believe he didn't imbue it with haki either.
It's weird because haki normally would bypass devil fruit and hurt the user, but what if the user's devil fruit is a great shield? And what could get past Jozu's haki-imbued diamond body?

 

[Dabanagaga]

Jozu's diamond body is a huge question as it seems to be a defensive sort of ability. Would haki be able to get past his diamond defense? Wasn't Mihawk's slash useless? No reason to believe he didn't imbue it with haki either.
It's weird because haki normally would bypass devil fruit and hurt the user, but what if the user's devil fruit is a great shield? And what could get past Jozu's haki-imbued diamond body?

There does not seem to be a limit as in how strong, or a better word is hard, can COA can get (umm...), as there are those whomst COA differs, then it would just simply take a person with COA harder than Jozu's COA+DF hardness/tankiness, simple maths. Diamond is not uncutable/undestroyable, it is just a hard sumbstance. If that is how things work ofc, and so far I think that IS how things work with DF which amps users BASE stats and does not give just a unique charasteristic of untangiability like Logia's or Luffy's blunt force negation, but, which could still work, if the blunt force is strong enough. And pretty sure that if Hawkeyes truly wanted to kill Jozu, he could do so, due to his title he should be not far away from a Yonkou, and if he can not beat a Yonkou commander, that makes no sence whatsoever. Yes, there are good/bad matchups, but this isn't one of them, at least it should not be. But who knows what Oda can pull out of his bum, after all Enel's lightning should have fried Luffy either way.

 

[Shasha23]

To have something as COA to just completely counter any tankiness of any DF user does not seem even a viable tought to be honest, but if that is the case - not a smart choice for Oda. When users COA is simply harder than the opponents DF granted hardness (not a completely valid term maybe), then it should deal damage to another, that would be a simple and logical conclusion. If I am somewhere wrong, I would gladly hear your opinion and correct mine.

But COA was introduced to counter such DF, if COA didn't bypass the defences then people like Jozu, Luffy, Mr, etc would be close to invincible as almost nothing would hurt them but as we have seen COA hurts them, sure thing the ability increases their defence as you stated but it doesn't make them invulnerable, there are multiple times the story has shown haki to counter such ability defences and Oda has gone to great length to explain and show us this.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 23, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 23, 2018 ---

Jozu's diamond body is a huge question as it seems to be a defensive sort of ability. Would haki be able to get past his diamond defense? Wasn't Mihawk's slash useless? No reason to believe he didn't imbue it with haki either.
It's weird because haki normally would bypass devil fruit and hurt the user, but what if the user's devil fruit is a great shield? And what could get past Jozu's haki-imbued diamond body?

Mihawk using haki in the war is questionable as he didnt use it on Buggy as well, and even if he did who is to say Jozu didn't use haki to further argument his defences.
What i get from COA bypassing abilities is that if the users body is being transform by an ability and making them somewhat invulnerable, COA can let you bypass those defences and actually damage them, but if that person produces an element or substance to shield their bodies COA wouldn't work, Barto's barrier, Mr3 and Perospero's shields, in cases like that you would need an element advantage to destroy the shield or your overall strength should be way above them to destroy their shield with force alone.