One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[M3J]

There does not seem to be a limit as in how strong, or a better word is hard, can COA can get (umm...), as there are those whomst COA differs, then it would just simply take a person with COA harder than Jozu's COA+DF hardness/tankiness, simple maths. Diamond is not uncutable/undestroyable, it is just a hard sumbstance. If that is how things work ofc, and so far I think that IS how things work with DF which amps users BASE stats and does not give just a unique charasteristic of untangiability like Logia's or Luffy's blunt force negation, but, which could still work, if the blunt force is strong enough. And pretty sure that if Hawkeyes truly wanted to kill Jozu, he could do so, due to his title he should be not far away from a Yonkou, and if he can not beat a Yonkou commander, that makes no sence whatsoever. Yes, there are good/bad matchups, but this isn't one of them, at least it should not be. But who knows what Oda can pull out of his bum, after all Enel's lightning should have fried Luffy either way.

There seems to be though, so far, otherwise Luffy would have been able to hurt Big Mom in some way. All he had to do was increase the strength of his Armament.

Problem is, Doesn't look like devil fruit really amps base stats, but it changes the body to give some sort of advantage or disadvantage. The intangibility of most logias come from their fruit being fire, lava, or whatnot while Luffy can withstand blunt force better because that's rubber's characteristic.

That is a possibility, but what if he used enough power to destroy most things, but the diamond body's defense was superior? I mean, Mihawk's slash cut an ice mountain, did it not? He's definitely put power behind his attacks.

how could Enel's lightning have friend Luffy? Can electricity fry rubber?

But COA was introduced to counter such DF, if COA didn't bypass the defences then people like Jozu, Luffy, Mr, etc would be close to invincible as almost nothing would hurt them but as we have seen COA hurts them, sure thing the ability increases their defence as you stated but it doesn't make them invulnerable, there are multiple times the story has shown haki to counter such ability defences and Oda has gone to great length to explain and show us this.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 23, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 23, 2018 ---

Mihawk using haki in the war is questionable as he didnt use it on Buggy as well, and even if he did who is to say Jozu didn't use haki to further argument his defences.
What i get from COA bypassing abilities is that if the users body is being transform by an ability and making them somewhat invulnerable, COA can let you bypass those defences and actually damage them, but if that person produces an element or substance to shield their bodies COA wouldn't work, Barto's barrier, Mr3 and Perospero's shields, in cases like that you would need an element advantage to destroy the shield or your overall strength should be way above them to destroy their shield with force alone.

How do we know he didn't use it on Buggy, though? Can haki slashes affect Buggy, given his fruit power?

Exactly what I was thinking/wondering.

 

[Shasha23]

How do we know he didn't use it on Buggy, though? Can haki slashes affect Buggy, given his fruit power?

Exactly what I was thinking/wondering.

Given all the hints and some feats we have seen COA will work on Buggy, the only way for him to dodge is for him to separate before the slash lands otherwise he will be cut, no ability is immune from COA attacks.

 

[M3J]

What feats? I'm not sure how his dice dice fruit works, but so far he's survived being slashed into pieces, so there's no telling how haki-imbued slashes would work.

 

[Shasha23]

What feats? I'm not sure how his dice dice fruit works, but so far he's survived being slashed into pieces, so there's no telling how haki-imbued slashes would work.

He hasn't got slashed by haki, as previously established COA will bypass the ability defence and hit the actual body, its the same as how a COA finger flick works on Luffy even though he is rubber, if a COA swordsman slashes him, he will get cut.

 

[M3J]

Rubber body being hit with blunt force is different from a body that can be sliced without an issue being sliced up, even with haki.

 

[Shasha23]

Rubber body being hit with blunt force is different from a body that can be sliced without an issue being sliced up, even with haki.

One is immune to blunt force and the other to slicing but COA affects the one and not the other???
please explain

 

[XXGenesis]

..is this really being discussed....Mihawk didn't need Haki to cut up Luffy so Buggy was able to reform from those...but Zoro would cut Buggy in 2 and kill him...

 

[M3J]

Luffy isn't immune to blunt force, it just hurts him less thanks to his rubber body. Same rubber body that can be cut without haki (unless Luffy uses haki), but Buggy's body can be sliced and not die thanks to his devil fruit. if I recall correctly, Color of Armament doesn't nullify the user's body, it just helps bypass its defense to hurt the user. If Buggy's devil fruit doesn't get nullified by haki, then being sliced shouldn't kill him.

 

[nik87]

I think the purpose of CoA in the first place is a way to deal with Logia users, otherwise one is basically, more or less, helpless against them.

I don't think it bypasses their DF defenses, that's stated nowhere. If that was the case and Katakuri's attacks bypassed Luffy's rubber defenses and injured his real human body, then Luffy would have been torn into pieces countless times over. He only withstood everything because of the Rubber properties.

Another thing, the tangible DF users(non-logias) are hurt by the attacks which have no CoA, they can only handle the damage better due to their special bodies.
Examples: Luffy is hurt by blunt force from Lucci. Luffy hurts Magellan with blunt force.
Issue with Luffy is that, to fodder, hes almost logia-like. They hit him and his body stretches and nothing happens. Haki hits treat him as a solid object.

Hitting the Logia's without CoA: Kizaru - attacks go through him. Aokiji - the ice shatters and recovers. Akainu - the magma splashes almost like water.
If WB bypassed Akainu's DF defenses and deformed his real body to what he did in the first hit after Ace's death, Akainu would have been dead right there and then.

CoA only allows landing an impact on logia elements which otherwise would have no effect. As we saw in the example with Caesar, Luffy only managed to grab the Gas, which without CoA isnt doable and only the contact area was tangible, the upper body was manipulated to avoid Luffy's attack.

Buggy's body is tangible, there is no issue with it, his only immunity is towards slicing. Only thing a swordsman has to do is to rotate the sword for 90° and hit him baseball style or just punch him with a hand, like Luffy did. I guess haki infused slash wont affect Buggy but we are trying to make sense of Oda's fiction and he may play it carefully and avoid such scenes.

Jozu's body is also tangible. Haki infused blunt attack at best may be painful for him but I dont think any damage will be done. In his diamond form he may be resistant to Aokiji but Akainu will most likely burn him and in worst scenario melt him. Kizaru's light is probably able to pierce his diamond body. Swordsmen of highest grade are probably able to cut diamond grade hardness and would have no issue cutting Jozu. Blunt attacks have to be incredibly strong to damage Jozu, even if they are haki infused. Diamond is not indestructible, its just incredibly hard.

That's my opinion on it. I might be wrong about it. Looking forward to seeing how Buggy and Jozu are dealing with Haki infused attacks.

 

[Dabanagaga]

Well, my basis for COA not countering DF's ability completely is how Bege's deff was higher regardless of Big Mom's haki, as it looks like she used it, but maybe I am wrong. Either way, Jozu's DF isn't unstoppable, so why even care that much if it is bypassable by COA. Strong enough COA would bypass his defenses. If it just bypasses everything that DF does, then it is rather redundant, as something as simple as basic COA would deal with his fruit. Cheapens all of DF's ability, not even talking about Zoan's increased base stats and just bypassing with haki. But Garp's punch was strong enough to actually wound Marco, maybe it has to do something with haki, if it is not just the power of blunt hit force.

What I said about Luffy, rubber isn't immune to electricity, it is just resistant, high enough power output should do the trick, and 200mil Volts is more than enough to do it, not even talking about how much heat it should produce. But this is anime, so they have their own rules. Same with Kizaru's DF. The things that can be done with it, I don't see anyone out doing him, but nothin will be done which could be done, otherwise there really shouldn't be any competition.

 

[Shasha23]

Luffy isn't immune to blunt force, it just hurts him less thanks to his rubber body. Same rubber body that can be cut without haki (unless Luffy uses haki), but Buggy's body can be sliced and not die thanks to his devil fruit. if I recall correctly, Color of Armament doesn't nullify the user's body, it just helps bypass its defense to hurt the user. If Buggy's devil fruit doesn't get nullified by haki, then being sliced shouldn't kill him.

Basically what your saying is COA only works on logia's and Luffy but no one else, tell me if i understood you wrong here, and yes Luffy's rubber body is immune to blunt force, only time he has ever bleed out or cried out in pain from a blunt force attack was COA based attacks.

Please explain to me why you think COA only works on Luffy and not other ability users who get the same defence benefits Luffy does, and why you think Rayleigh's explanation of how COA works is wrong and yours is correct, because im having a hard time trying to understand how you guys fail to understand that simple explanation that was given to us on how to combat ability users with Haki.

 

[HereNThere]

Sorry to butt in, but CoA, for all intents and purposes, basically bypasses the natural defenses gifted by Devil Fruits. Rayleigh put it as them becoming "vulnerable", but from what we've seen from it in action, it's a bypass. So if Buggy is hit with a haki infused slash, he'll be cut. If Jozu is hit with a haki infused blow, he's going to feel it. Luffy and Buggy are only alive because they are plot relevant, as they really should've died at Marineford since everyone who was there was a veteran New World pirate or marine, and thus, should've been proficient in haki. Which brings me to this point; feats from Marineford should not be taken into account anymore as they are pretty much obsolete. The things we saw characters do back then aren't a fraction of what we know they are truly capable of now, especially with haki being a fully established concept in the series.

That being said, physical ability also should be taken into account. If you can't put enough force behind the sword to actually make a substantial cut, you aren't going to put Buggy down, even with haki. If you're physically weak, it doesn't matter if you manage to hit Jozu with a haki punch as his constitution is crazy high and he won't get harmed.

As for Jozu and Mihawk, if we are to assume that Mihawk feels the "breath" of the things like Zoro, he can cut Jozu if he puts his mind to it. I don't know if it would be simple for him to do so, but he should be able to do. However, if Jozu's haki proficiency is on the same level as Mihawk's, then he would be able to mitigate, if not cancel out, a haki infused slash, which would mean Mihawk would have to rely on pure physical ability to cut him.

 

[XXGenesis]

The only way Buggy can avoid a haki slash is having superior COA, if doesn't he'll receive the damage. COA bypasses trough DF users powers. It doesn't stop Buggy from separating his body or using ihs powers but it bypasses his fruits immunity to be cut.

OP WIKIA
This type of Haki also has the ability to bypass the powers of a Devil Fruit user whose body has been altered by their fruit in any way, touching the "substantial body" beneath whatever protection the fruit provides, such as the case of body-altering Devil Fruits such as Logia or Paramecia users.

The only confusing thing to me, is when DF users cancel out or bypass others Haki...Not the other way around, Haki has been well explained in what it can do. But it's the interactions of DF users Haki's clashing that still has a variable factor.Ex.Akianu nullifying Visa & Marco's cutting attacking only receiving minor damage. Meaning his haki was stronger than theirs so they couldn't cut his substantial body or his.....Or like Jimbei how long would you be able to protect our hand from burning from blocking an lava attack with you haki

 

[nik87]

Guys what you are saying is simply not correct. The terms "bypass" and "cancel out" are made up by the community to easier understand the CoA but its not correct. Afaik manga never used those terms, at least not in any translations of decent quality.

I'll give you an example from the New World to show that both canceling out and bypassing df defenses is not what happens.

Doflamingo's haki clad kick to Luffy's ribs. Not only did Luffy still stretch meaning his df defense was still in tact but he also took no damage at all from that hit which means that haki infused hit doesnt guarantee damage to df user.

Only attacks which are capable of damaging diamond will be able to hurt Jozu. CoA makes the attacks stronger and allows to treat intangible substances as solid objects but if the force behind those attacks is not strong enough it wont be of any use.

 

[nik87]

Because Sanji wanted that invisibility DF before opting against it. But he's already has this fight with Absalom, so fighting Shillew could be a bit of double-handling.

Yes, I get the reason why would Sanji fight him but I was more interested in how you see Sanji battling a top grade swordsman like Shilliew. I guess you meant the reason for a fight and not the how, my bad.

 

[Brandish μ]

Yes, I get the reason why would Sanji fight him but I was more interested in how you see Sanji battling a top grade swordsman as Shilliew. I guess you meant the reason for a fight and not the how, my bad.

I don't want to divert topic too much, but it shouldn't matter if it's a swordsman? If he's too strong for Sanji, then that would be the problem. As far as fighting styles go (swordsman, martial arts, DF's etc) they can all do a job, with no style clearly being better in a general combat sense. I think. It's just better to have Zoro fight swordsman, keeps in line with his goal. Other times he fights a giraffe.

King also has wings, that going to be a problem for Zoro? Usopp and Orlumbus has to help Zoro in other fights (that dragon and Pica).

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 24, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 24, 2018 ---

Oh yea congrats to those who predicted King and Queen (because of Joker/Jack).

 

[nik87]

I don't want to divert topic too much, but it shouldn't matter if it's a swordsman? If he's too strong for Sanji, then that would be the problem. As far as fighting styles go (swordsman, martial arts, DF's etc) they can all do a job, with no style clearly being better in a general combat sense. I think. It's just better to have Zoro fight swordsman, keeps in line with his goal. Other times he fights a giraffe.

I think all other Strawhats, Brook excluded, are at great disadvantage if paired vs a swordsman, to the point that they never fought a strong swordsman. It was the same even for Luffy when he fought Cracker, as slicing techniques are extremely dangerous for non-swordsmen and Luffy is a top combatant and main character. If it represents such a problem for him i doubt other crew members will face a swordsman as their main opponent in any arc.

Its possible to deal with a swordsman if they had far superior CoA but we know thats not the case nor will ever be, most likely.

King also has wings, that going to be a problem for Zoro? Usopp and Orlumbus has to help Zoro in other fights (that dragon and Pica).

It surely is a disadvantage for Zoro if the opponent can fly and I expect some kind of help or team-ups vs Calamities. In battle with Pica the problem was that he was too far away from him and thus Orlumbus served to close the distance. In the scene with dragon on PH Usopp provided the same distance closer but vertically instead horizontally this time. Zoro can send out flying slashes but they most likely are not as powerful as direct slash.

 

[ShishiSonson]

Sanji is definitely not ready to take on any of the calamities 1v1 even Jack. Zoro is questionable because we haven't seen really him get challenged in the New World. Neither of them should be strong enough to beat Kaido's top commanders alone. We are going to get teamups. Count on it.

How can you judge correctly Sanji's level since we did not see him fight with all he has ?
What you say about Zoro can be applied to Sanji as well. Since he did not had a real, all out 1 vs 1 fight.

 

[Zehahaha]

How can you judge correctly Sanji's level since we did not see him fight with all he has ?
What you say about Zoro can be applied to Sanji as well. Since he did not had a real, all out 1 vs 1 fight.

Having your bones cracked by Vergo isn't a good sign, he has yet to show even hardening ffs
Tho he had some decent moments against BM's thugs I guess

 

[ShishiSonson]

Having your bones cracked by Vergo isn't a good sign, he has yet to show even hardening ffs
Tho he had some decent moments against BM's thugs I guess

Against BM's sons, yeah he had good moment but their plan was always to escape (wedding and the trap during the fight Katakuri-Luffy).
Against Vergo maybe he had underestimated him.
Against his father and brothers, it was more an emotional fight than a real.