One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[HereNThere]

Guys what you are saying is simply not correct. The terms "bypass" and "cancel out" are made up by the community to easier understand the CoA but its not correct. Afaik manga never used those terms, at least not in any translations of decent quality.

As I mentioned, Rayleigh used "vulnerability" in the official translations, but we can take what we've seen from the series and call it a bypass as it allows damage to go through whatever defense was gained by the natural body thanks to the devil fruit.

Doflamingo's haki clad kick to Luffy's ribs. Not only did Luffy still stretch meaning his df defense was still in tact but he also took no damage at all from that hit which means that haki infused hit doesnt guarantee damage to df user.

Which likely means that Doflamingo's haki wasn't up to snuff at the moment or Luffy's haki in Gear 4 superseded Doffy's enough to retain his rubber defense. We already saw from Katakuri and, recently, Kaido that a strong enough attack can harm Luffy in Gear 4th.

Thinking about it now, that scene with Doffy kicking Luffy and not hurting him is an outlier, as we know now from the Katakuri fight that Haki hits should be felt regardless of one's fruit ability or haki defense. Going by that fight, Doflamingo's kick should've went through. It may not have hurt Luffy greatly, but he should've felt it.

 

[nik87]

Which likely means that Doflamingo's haki wasn't up to snuff at the moment or Luffy's haki in Gear 4 superseded Doffy's enough to retain his rubber defense. We already saw from Katakuri and, recently, Kaido that a strong enough attack can harm Luffy in Gear 4th.

Thinking about it now, that scene with Doffy kicking Luffy and not hurting him is an outlier, as we know now from the Katakuri fight that Haki hits should be felt regardless of one's fruit ability or haki defense. Going by that fight, Doflamingo's kick should've went through. It may not have hurt Luffy greatly, but he should've felt it.

The issue, imo, is not Doffy's haki but the force behind his attacks. It was simply not a match for gear 4th. His haki was strong and comparable to Luffy's.
Also, Luffy's haki is same in base form and all the gears, g4 included, it doesnt get stronger with gears.

Even attacks without haki can wreck Luffy, if they are strong enough. Haki is only treating weird bodies as solid objects and makes them hittable. It also reinforced the attack and makes it stronger. Canceling and bypassing is not what happens. Those terms create confusion when it comes to CoA and DF and should be avoided, imo.

 

[TrueRaiKage]

I think many are underestimating this invisible swordsmen thing here. If mihawk n zoro can cut steel and ships, an invisible swordsman can destroy a fleet in a few slashes. He could also be the best trump card in a battle. Also like absolms excellent spy/assassin.

Add awakening and you might be talking about an invisible ship or fleet. Perhaps an invisible crew.

But to the point an invisible swordsman can eliminate fodder in a few strokes. This is dangerous. The ability to cut first on 98.9% of the swordsman we have seen so far gives him the advantage. I'm sure the other 1.1% are the CoO users. (These are guestimations lol).

Shiryu of the Rain just became a top tier swordsman in OP, if he wasn't already. His ability to strike first just put him in the top 5 swordsman and that's a hell of a list. No order of ranking.

Mihawk
Purple tiger
Zoro (many will debate lol)
Shanks
Invisible Swordsman of the Rain

Each of these swordsman is capable of mass damage/destruction on a epic OP scale with a sword.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I think many are underestimating this invisible swordsmen thing here. If mihawk n zoro can cut steel and ships, an invisible swordsman can destroy a fleet in a few slashes. He could also be the best trump card in a battle. Also like absolms excellent spy/assassin.

Add awakening and you might be talking about an invisible ship or fleet. Perhaps an invisible crew.

But to the point an invisible swordsman can eliminate fodder in a few strokes. This is dangerous. The ability to cut first on 98.9% of the swordsman we have seen so far gives him the advantage. I'm sure the other 1.1% are the CoO users. (These are guestimations lol).

Shiryu of the Rain just became a top tier swordsman in OP, if he wasn't already. His ability to strike first just put him in the top 5 swordsman and that's a hell of a list. No order of ranking.

Mihawk
Purple tiger
Zoro (many will debate lol)
Shanks
Invisible Swordsman of the Rain

Each of these swordsman is capable of mass damage/destruction on a epic OP scale with a sword.

If you adopt at CoO, does it nullify the surprise factor of invisibility

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 24, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 24, 2018 ---

Has someone made the theory that King met Kaidou in Impel Down and joined up with him after none of his torture methods managed to break Kaidou?

Leading to some morbid fascination which escalated to Kaidou breaking out of Impel Down and King joining up as a Calamity...

Only shiki, besides Luffy, are credited with escaping Impel Down, so Kaido couldn't have escaped.

 

[Ero-Sanji]

@Ero-Sanji Mihawk is not at the level of PRIME Whitebeard. lol, Just stop.

it was not Weevil's mom who made the comparison. Kizaru did. And I said raw power, not all around better fighter. Between Weevil and Mihawk... Weevil is the bigger threat.

You don't know that. None of us do. We have nothing to base that on. We'll just have to wait and see. Being the strongest swordsman is no small feature. Like, there's a reason why Mihawk's bounty hasn't even been revealed. Also, being at the level of someone does not necessarily mean that you're stronger.

Kizaru saying that is exactly what I'm trying to say. It could all be based on pure propaganda. Luffy for all intent and purposes was the master mind behind the raid of Big Mom's island. Remember Fisher Tiger? How strong he sounded and how weak he actually was? Remember Norland? We don't know what Kizaru has actually seen.

 

[Pirate Queen]

You don't know that. None of us do. We have nothing to base that on. We'll just have to wait and see. Being the strongest swordsman is no small feature. Like, there's a reason why Mihawk's bounty hasn't even been revealed. Also, being at the level of someone does not necessarily mean that you're stronger.

Kizaru saying that is exactly what I'm trying to say. It could all be based on pure propaganda. Luffy for all intent and purposes was the master mind behind the raid of Big Mom's island. Remember Fisher Tiger? How strong he sounded and how weak he actually was? Remember Norland? We don't know what Kizaru has actually seen.

Whitebeard had NO EQUAL besides Rodger and Garp. That's a manga fact.

I'm not arguing this as it is both ridiculous and off topic. Go to the proper thread and tag me there if you want to continue this. I'm done. That's not even the point I was trying to make.

Mihawk is a strong individual, but unlike Weevil he is calm and won't do anything chaotic where as Weevil is an idiot controlled by a crazy woman.

 

[Zehahaha]

The issue, imo, is not Doffy's haki but the force behind his attacks. It was simply not a match for gear 4th. His haki was strong and comparable to Luffy's.
Also, Luffy's haki is same in base form and all the gears, g4 included, it doesnt get stronger with gears.

Even attacks without haki can wreck Luffy, if they are strong enough. Haki is only treating weird bodies as solid objects and makes them hittable. It also reinforced the attack and makes it stronger. Canceling and bypassing is not what happens. Those terms create confusion when it comes to CoA and DF and should be avoided, imo.

I don 't think so
His Haki consumption increases in G4, it seems more resistant (e.g he clashed with Katakuri pre-G4 and his fists hurt, with G4 he didn't feel that although he would still feel damage whenever he receives a clean hit), inclined to believe that his Haki in G4 is stronger

 

[nik87]

I don 't think so
His Haki consumption increases in G4, it seems more resistant (e.g he clashed with Katakuri pre-G4 and his fists hurt, with G4 he didn't feel that although he would still feel damage whenever he receives a clean hit), inclined to believe that his Haki in G4 is stronger

It makes no sense, its not how haki works and how it gets stronger. Haki level is stable, its can only get stronger and remain at that stronger level, we never had a case of haki level fluctuating.

Luffy in gear 4th has a lot more force behind his attacks and he still acknowledged Katakuri to have superior CoA but said his g4 wont lose to it. Even tho Katakuri's CoA is superior Luffy in gear 4 has enough raw power to beat his defense. Nothing changed about Luffy's haki.
Increased resistance is due to both having haki and elasticity because of inflated muscle mass.

 

[Shasha23]

Guys what you are saying is simply not correct. The terms "bypass" and "cancel out" are made up by the community to easier understand the CoA but its not correct. Afaik manga never used those terms, at least not in any translations of decent quality.

I'll give you an example from the New World to show that both canceling out and bypassing df defenses is not what happens.

Doflamingo's haki clad kick to Luffy's ribs. Not only did Luffy still stretch meaning his df defense was still in tact but he also took no damage at all from that hit which means that haki infused hit doesnt guarantee damage to df user.

Only attacks which are capable of damaging diamond will be able to hurt Jozu. CoA makes the attacks stronger and allows to treat intangible substances as solid objects but if the force behind those attacks is not strong enough it wont be of any use.

Luffy defended against Doffy's kick with COA, and as previously established the one with the stronger COA wins, even Doffy said how is he rubbury even though he is using hardening, so again your wrong.

If you think only attacks which are capable of damaging diamond will work on Jozu then why do blunt force COA attacks work on Luffy?
Explain to me why you think COA attacks only works on Luffy and no one else?

 

[nik87]

Luffy defended against Doffy's kick with COA, and as previously established the one with the stronger COA wins, even Doffy said how is he rubbury even though he is using hardening, so again your wrong.

If you think only attacks which are capable of damaging diamond will work on Jozu then why do blunt force COA attacks work on Luffy?
Explain to me why you think COA attacks only works on Luffy and no one else?

I dont see what am i wrong about in that example. Luffy withstood that attack because of increased elasticity which was provided from gear fourth, which comes from his df. A haki hit from doffy didnt bypass his df defences like you claim to be the case.

It works on Luffy and doesnt work on Jozu because one is rubber and other is diamond. Resistance to physical damage of those two substances is way too different.

It takes no force to cut rubber but good luck cuting a diamond. The blunt force needed to damage a diamond is far greater than the force needed to damage rubber.

 

[Shasha23]

I dont see what am i wrong about in that example. Luffy withstood that attack because of increased elasticity which was provided from gear fourth, which comes from his df. A haki hit from doffy didnt bypass his df defences like you claim to be the case.

It works on Luffy and doesnt work on Jozu because one is rubber and other is diamond. Resistance to physical damage of those two substances is way too different.

It takes no force to cut rubber but good luck cuting a diamond. The blunt force needed to damage a diamond is far greater than the force needed to damage rubber.

It didn't because Luffy countered with COA himself, even Doffy states this man please!!!!! and as previously established you can counter COA with COA yourself and the one with the stronger haki will win the clash which Luffy did!

Im asking you why COA attacks work on Luffy and why not on other ability users....

Explain this to me before anything else because from where im sitting now it sounds like your dragging this on because you don't want to accept the fact your wrong if you keep dodging this question.

 

[nik87]

It didn't because Luffy countered with COA himself, even Doffy states this man please!!!!! and as previously established you can counter COA with COA yourself and the one with the stronger haki will win the clash which Luffy did!

Im asking you why COA attacks work on Luffy and why not on other ability users....

Explain this to me before anything else because from where im sitting now it sounds like your dragging this on because you don't want to accept the fact your wrong if you keep dodging this question.

I dont agree. It's not because he countered with haki because he was doing the same before going into gear fourth and Doffy was wrecking him. The only thing that changed was elasticity due to inflated muscle mass which is thanks to his df.

I am not dodging your question and i already answered it but you didnt understand.
I never said that CoA attacks work on Luffy and not on others, that's what you somehow concluded, i dont know why.

CoA attacks work on Luffy or they do not, like in example with Doffy's kick. What I am saying is that it's not that simple as you think.

CoA worked against g3 Luffy but in g4 his defense got better, elasticity increased and CoA attacks which hurt him until a moment ago no longer made an effect because they were too weak against g4. However, as we saw with Katakuri and Kaido, who have far more force in their attacks, that the same elasticity did nothing.

For example, even if Jozu has no CoA at all you cant expect someone like Sanji to hurt him even tho Sanji has CoA, because the force behind Sanji's attacks is too weak to hurt a diamond.
On the other hand, if Jozu were to eat the baseball bat from Kaido, even if Kaido had no CoA and Jozu had CoA, then Jozu would be hurt because the force behind Kaido's attacks is so big.

 

[Shasha23]

I dont agree. It's not because he countered with haki because he was doing the same before going into gear fourth and Doffy was wrecking him. The only thing that changed was elasticity due to inflated muscle mass which is thanks to his df.

I am not dodging your question and i already answered it but you didnt understand.
I never said that CoA attacks work on Luffy and not on others, that's what you somehow concluded, i dont know why.

CoA attacks work on Luffy or they do not, like in example with Doffy's kick. What I am saying is that it's not that simple as you think.

CoA worked against g3 Luffy but in g4 his defense got better, elasticity increased and CoA attacks which hurt him until a moment ago no longer made an effect because they were too weak against g4. However, as we saw with Katakuri and Kaido, who have far more force in their attacks, that the same elasticity did nothing.

For example, even if Jozu has no CoA at all you cant expect someone like Sanji to hurt him even tho Sanji has CoA, because the force behind Sanji's attacks is too weak to hurt a diamond.
On the other hand, if Jozu were to eat the baseball bat from Kaido, even if Kaido had no CoA and Jozu had CoA, then Jozu would be hurt because the force behind Kaido's attacks is so big.

Doffy was never wrecking Luffy in anyway before G4, your still dodging the fact that Luffy countered Doffy's hit with COA that's why it didn't do a thing to him, and the fact Doffy out right says this!

Ok if you think COA attacks work on other ability users then why you so adamant COA attacks wont work on Jozu?

 

[nik87]

Doffy was never wrecking Luffy in anyway before G4, your still dodging the fact that Luffy countered Doffy's hit with COA that's why it didn't do a thing to him, and the fact Doffy out right says this!

Ok if you think COA attacks work on other ability users then why you so adamant COA attacks wont work on Jozu?

Damn, i am getting tired trying to explain this... It doesnt matter that Luffy countered with armament, he countered with CoA in g2 and g3 and took damage. Luffy can take damage from attacks which have no CoA even if Luffy counters with CoA, the attack only needs to be strong enough.

CoA attacks will work on Jozu as well only if the force behind them is strong enough, strong enough to damage a diamond.

 

[Shasha23]

Damn, i am getting tired trying to explain this... It doesnt matter that Luffy countered with armament, he countered with CoA in g2 and g3 and took damage. Luffy can take damage from attacks which have no CoA even if Luffy counters with CoA, the attack only needs to be strong enough.

CoA attacks will work on Jozu as well only if the force behind them is strong enough, strong enough to damage a diamond.

Luffy only counters once with COA and that was after the 10 mins never before except for the G4 part, every other time they had a COA clash it was even.

No COA attacks will work on Jozu if the person dealing them is relative to his strength, they dont need to be able to damage diamond since Jozu is a ability user and COA is meant to damage ability users. By your reasoning Luffy shouldn't be able to take damage from blunt force since he is immune from it then.

 

[nik87]

@Shasha23 We see things differently and you dont seem to understand what I am explaining. I said diamonds immunity is far higher than rubber and you still keep forcing that i said that luffy is immune too, which i didnt.
We should stop here, it leads nowhere.

 

[M3J]

Basically what your saying is COA only works on logia's and Luffy but no one else, tell me if i understood you wrong here, and yes Luffy's rubber body is immune to blunt force, only time he has ever bleed out or cried out in pain from a blunt force attack was COA based attacks.

Please explain to me why you think COA only works on Luffy and not other ability users who get the same defence benefits Luffy does, and why you think Rayleigh's explanation of how COA works is wrong and yours is correct, because im having a hard time trying to understand how you guys fail to understand that simple explanation that was given to us on how to combat ability users with Haki.

Once again, as usual, you understood me completely wrong.

Sorry to butt in, but CoA, for all intents and purposes, basically bypasses the natural defenses gifted by Devil Fruits. Rayleigh put it as them becoming "vulnerable", but from what we've seen from it in action, it's a bypass. So if Buggy is hit with a haki infused slash, he'll be cut. If Jozu is hit with a haki infused blow, he's going to feel it. Luffy and Buggy are only alive because they are plot relevant, as they really should've died at Marineford since everyone who was there was a veteran New World pirate or marine, and thus, should've been proficient in haki. Which brings me to this point; feats from Marineford should not be taken into account anymore as they are pretty much obsolete. The things we saw characters do back then aren't a fraction of what we know they are truly capable of now, especially with haki being a fully established concept in the series.

That being said, physical ability also should be taken into account. If you can't put enough force behind the sword to actually make a substantial cut, you aren't going to put Buggy down, even with haki. If you're physically weak, it doesn't matter if you manage to hit Jozu with a haki punch as his constitution is crazy high and he won't get harmed.

As for Jozu and Mihawk, if we are to assume that Mihawk feels the "breath" of the things like Zoro, he can cut Jozu if he puts his mind to it. I don't know if it would be simple for him to do so, but he should be able to do. However, if Jozu's haki proficiency is on the same level as Mihawk's, then he would be able to mitigate, if not cancel out, a haki infused slash, which would mean Mihawk would have to rely on pure physical ability to cut him.

He's gonna feel the haki infused blow, but just how much of a defense would his diamond body provide against it? A diamond body is like a shield whereas a fire body isn't. As you said, haki can only do so much without enough physical strength.

And Marineford still provides a basis of what characters can do.

Having your bones cracked by Vergo isn't a good sign, he has yet to show even hardening ffs
Tho he had some decent moments against BM's thugs I guess

Er, that's not a good counter because Sanji was still moving and fighting as if he didn't even come across Vergo, and he came across Vergo already hurt from when Nami was in his body. And Sanji has used Color of Armament twice, and Luffy confirmed Sanji can use CoA when Law said only haki users could go up against Caesar. And as we saw, Law was able beat Vergo quickly because of his devil fruit.

 

[Shasha23]

@Shasha23 We see things differently and you dont seem to understand what I am explaining. I said diamonds immunity is far higher than rubber and you still keep forcing that i said that luffy is immune too, which i didnt.
We should stop here, it leads nowhere.

Dude Luffy is immune to blunt force but as we have seen COA bypasses that immunity, meaning the same thing will happen to Jozu, if the person attacking him is strong enough it doesn't matter if he is in diamond form, the COA attack will work on him because that is what COA does!

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 25, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 25, 2018 ---

Once again, as usual, you understood me completely wrong.

Hard to understand someone who makes little to no sense, im still waiting on your explanation as to why haki works on some and not all.

 

[nik87]

Dude Luffy is immune to blunt force but as we have seen COA bypasses that immunity, meaning the same thing will happen to Jozu, if the person attacking him is strong enough it doesn't matter if he is in diamond form, the COA attack will work on him because that is what COA does!

Dude, for the millionth time, Luffy is not immune to blunt force. Entire fight with Lucci speaks against your claims. Even if you simply slam him into the ground or walls with enough force he will take damage. Please dont make me repeat myself for who knows how many times.

It is easy to damage rubber, its extremely hard to damage diamond, it matters.

Also regarding fight with Doffy, here see for yourself. Same attack hurts him in base form while it does nothing to g4. In both cases Luffy shielded with haki. The force behind the attack matters, Doffy is no match for G4.
http://automanga.com/uploads/manga/one-piece/chapters/782/08.jpg
http://automanga.com/uploads/manga/one-piece/chapters/782/09.jpg
http://automanga.com/uploads/manga/one-piece/chapters/784/14.jpg
http://automanga.com/uploads/manga/one-piece/chapters/784/15.jpg

I hope we are done with this discussion for now.

Edit: Proof of blunt force, great enough, damaging him to the point that he coughs up blood.
http://automanga.com/uploads/manga/one-piece/chapters/882/07.jpg

It's not as simple as Haki = Damage and No haki = No damage, answer is always - It depends.
Its best if you forget about CoA and focus mainly on the strength of the attacks, CoA is just extra, a small buff to that force and a cheat code vs logias.

 

[HereNThere]

He's gonna feel the haki infused blow, but just how much of a defense would his diamond body provide against it? A diamond body is like a shield whereas a fire body isn't. As you said, haki can only do so much without enough physical strength.

And Marineford still provides a basis of what characters can do.

Going by recent interactions between haki and DFs, his diamond body shouldn't provide much of any defense and he'd have to rely on his own constitution and his haki. And, if the diamond still is in play, it shouldn't matter much as the person should be using hardening.