One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[XXGenesis]

If I remember correctly Mother Caramel compared Big Mom's Potential to that of a Navy Fleet Admiral.

So Yonkou's are basically Fleet Admiral Lv or most likely higher. Admirals are stronger than the toughest YC. But weaker than a Yonkou and weaker than the Fleet Admiral.

Garp is low-mid Admiral lv imo pre timeskip. In his prime he was most likely Fleet LV or High Admiral lv. We know the geezers are strong but thier power is waned out..We have many examples...WB(sick), Hina(old), Garp(old)...Garp mentions before that he doesn't have his youthful strength anymore but still leaves him as a beast. Post Time Skip he has to be a little lower than his pre time skip self..& I say this because he basically retired & isnt going to gain strength like coby, a young marine.

Sengoku was Fleet lv. Post Time Skip, he's aged some. But he's not as old as Garp or Hina. He's getting old though, so I'll say he's low-mid admiral of now.

Garp & Sengoku were to strong in their prime. They fought and chased Shiki, Gol Roger, & WB; Yonkou & more

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Sengoku was Fleet lv. Post Time Skip, he's aged some. But he's not as old as Garp or Hina. He's getting old though, so I'll say he's low-mid admiral of now.

Sengoku is the oldest of the old. He's a year older than Garp.
Source: SBS.

 

[McNuss]

If I remember correctly Mother Caramel compared Big Mom's Potential to that of a Navy Fleet Admiral.

So Yonkou's are basically Fleet Admiral Lv or most likely higher. Admirals are stronger than the toughest YC. But weaker than a Yonkou and weaker than the Fleet Admiral.

If I recall correctly, they said Admiral or Fleet Admiral. Anyways Fleet Admiral is not entirely strenght related. Sengoku was below his three Admirals for sure. But he was also a master tactician.

There really isn't much of a strenght difference. Sakazuki and Kuzan fought for days, and I don't think Kizaru would have lasted that much less vs any of the two.

Their feats from Marineford showcase that there really isn't too much difference between Admirals, Fleet Admirals and Yonko

Garp is low-mid Admiral lv imo pre timeskip. In his prime he was most likely Fleet LV or High Admiral lv. We know the geezers are strong but thier power is waned out..We have many examples...WB(sick), Hina(old), Garp(old)...Garp mentions before that he doesn't have his youthful strength anymore but still leaves him as a beast. Post Time Skip he has to be a little lower than his pre time skip self..& I say this because he basically retired & isnt going to gain strength like coby, a young marine.

Hina is gonna kill you, she is only in her 30s
I think you mean Tsuru.

Sengoku was Fleet lv. Post Time Skip, he's aged some. But he's not as old as Garp or Hina. He's getting old though, so I'll say he's low-mid admiral of now.

Garp & Sengoku were to strong in their prime. They fought and chased Shiki, Gol Roger, & WB; Yonkou & more

Sengoku definitely aged more, and retired more than Garp.
His hair grayed out and he wears casual clothes now.
Sengoku also has the worst feats out of any character within his category. He ragdolled the Blackbeard Pirates for minutes and didn't knock a single one out, while Akainu faced all the remaining WB Commander + Crocodile and Andre and few minutes later Curiel is on the floor.

 

[Takuan]

I highly doubt that, Sengoku would have likely ordered Blackbeard to be apprehended rather than get in Shanks' way, especially with how quickly the Marines calmed down when SHanks challenged them if they still wanted to continue fighting. Plus, it'd have been the Marines vs. Shanks and remnants of the Whitebeard crew vs. Blackbeard, if it was a three-way. I don't see why the Whitebeard pirates wouldn't have joined and helped Shanks, and if I recall correctly, it was at the Marines after Shanks blocked Akainu's falcon punch to Coby.

Fair enough, you're right.

Well, Kaidou and Big Mom seem to be more likely to handle magma, like Aokiji, given their defenses. Big Mom doesn't bleed unless traumatized, and has Kaidou bled at all so far? But we've seen Garp bleed from Luffy and Dadan's attacks. Whitebeard is also tangible whereas AKainu is a logia, so it'd be harder to hurt him. It's not weird at all. This isn't Dragon Ball Z where everything is linear.

Someone of a high enough caliber that he's able to damage and beat Whitebeard, surely has a high level Haki to be able to bypass a Logia intangibility. Especially someone like Garp, you're thinking he doesn't have a powerful enough haki to even touch Akainu? And here i thought you were praising Garp. Even i think Garp is strong enough to touch and damage Akainu.
Dont get me wrong, personally i don't think Garp can beat Akainu, and the fact that he bled from Luffy and Dadan goes against him. But if we're using that argument, then his defense shoudln't allow him to resist Whitebeard's insane offensive power.

 

[afromarco005]

The only feat I've seen is the one-shot of Marco.

Also, in my probably outrageous ranking of current Garp equal to Yonko and Admirals.

It's important to note that in any given one on one matchups you'll nearly always have a winner even if it were between Yonko. They might be classed in the same power tier but one is stronger than the other and it can range from slightly to very slightly.

Aokiji lost to Akainu, both are Admiral level but one is slightly stronger.
Garp could lose to Akainu or vice versa and I'll still view him as Admiral level.

Similarly;
Big Mom/Kaido could lose to Garp or vice versa and I'll consider him Yonko level as Kaido could lose to Shanks or vice versa yet both are Yonko level.

Bottomline: It all depends on how intense and how good a performance either opponent shows within their power tier as a one-shot, two-shot, three-shot (you get what I mean) tells us 2 opponents aren't of the same power level.
Like with Garp (Yonko/Admiral level) and Marco (YC lvl), Kaido (Yonko level) and Luffy (YC level), Rayleigh (Yonko/Admiral level) and Luffy (YC level), Fujitora (Admiral level) and Sabo (YC level


That Shanks guy eh?

If you put it that way then:

Shanks > WB
Since BB was willing to fight WB but not Shanks (he's a Haki beast so I get why he'd run back then)

I think no one on the battlefield was ready to fight a second yonko crew, thats all.

 

[XXGenesis]

Sengoku is the oldest of the old. He's a year older than Garp.
Source: SBS.

is

O wow the js I didn't know that. Sengoku, sure has aged brtter.

If I recall correctly, they said Admiral or Fleet Admiral. Anyways Fleet Admiral is not entirely strenght related. Sengoku was below his three Admirals for sure. But he was also a master tactician.

There really isn't much of a strenght difference. Sakazuki and Kuzan fought for days, and I don't think Kizaru would have lasted that much less vs any of the two.

Their feats from Marineford showcase that there really isn't too much difference between Admirals, Fleet Admirals and Yonko

Agreed. I think Sengoku was still Mid Admiral Lv. With Admirals like Kuzan & Akainu being High lv Admirals capable of attaining the Fleet Admiral position. Which yes isnt about power but Admiral class I'm sure is necessary.

Hina is gonna kill you, she is only in her 30s
I think you mean Tsuru.

Lol, yes that's who I'm talking about. Thanks

Sengoku definitely aged more, and retired more than Garp.
His hair grayed out and he wears casual clothes now.
Sengoku also has the worst feats out of any character within his category. He ragdolled the Blackbeard Pirates for minutes and didn't knock a single one out, while Akainu faced all the remaining WB Commander + Crocodile and Andre and few minutes later Curiel is on the floor.

Yea i slightly agree here. Sengoku's feats aren't impressive what so ever. But still the BB pirates were basically New World of threats. The story at this time doesn't have feats comparable to the time Skip, where the upper echelon class feats & such are being fleshed out even more..Ex.Ace. For Ace to lose to BB means BB was already top YC lv..If Ace was a lie tier YC.

& Akainu I'm not a fan because the guy is a penis lol but he's hella strong and has an annoying prowness to his justice.

 

[M3J]

Well we've also seen WB bleed likewise Akainu. How is it harder to hurt him when there's Haki?
He probably figured that himself when facing the Haki monster that blocked is attack.

As far as we know, tangibility isn't a thing anymore in the New World where nearly every pirate is versed in Haki unless you have future sight coupled with it (good luck with that).

It's not harder to hurt Akainu just bcos he's Logia. It'd just be about who is strong enough to hurt him. The Yonko and Admirals are more than capable of that.

Didn't Katakuri manage to avoid hits by creating holes in his body where he saw Luffy punching? And can't logias usually avoid attacks by doing stuff like that? That's what I"m talking about, being able to hit a logia. Can't hurt him if you can't hit him.

Fair enough, you're right.


Someone of a high enough caliber that he's able to damage and beat Whitebeard, surely has a high level Haki to be able to bypass a Logia intangibility. Especially someone like Garp, you're thinking he doesn't have a powerful enough haki to even touch Akainu? And here i thought you were praising Garp. Even i think Garp is strong enough to touch and damage Akainu.
Dont get me wrong, personally i don't think Garp can beat Akainu, and the fact that he bled from Luffy and Dadan goes against him. But if we're using that argument, then his defense shoudln't allow him to resist Whitebeard's insane offensive power.

Sweet, I love hearing I remembered something correctly.

When I said it'd be harder to hit a logia, I meant that Akainu could spread his body apart and avoid hits like Katakuri did. In terms of hitting Akainu himself, Garp is definitely capable of that, especially since he can hurt Luffy without a problem. I'm not criticizing Garp, I'm talking about most logias' ability to avoid attacks. Like, how Cracker's too weak to take damage, and Luffy can definitely knock him out, but in order to do that he has to get past Cracker's defense.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Didn't Katakuri manage to avoid hits by creating holes in his body where he saw Luffy punching? And can't logias usually avoid attacks by doing stuff like that? That's what I"m talking about, being able to hit a logia. Can't hurt him if you can't hit him.

Katakuri can do that very effectively bcos he has future sight and unless the Logia user (whosoever it may be) has future sight, then they're as easy to hit (by armament Haki users) as anyone else.
You are mixing things up here. Katakuri is an exception, not the norm.
That's why Luffy was worried when he attacked him on the Sunny and it phased through. It's the one thing CoA is supposed to give you – ability to hit Logia and render them tangible – yet it failed against Katakuri.

Hence you have Kizaru being unable to use his intangibility as an advantage when battling Rayleigh.
The same with Aokiji and Kizaru when battling Marco, etc.

Katakuri was always an exception and whoever faces him or any other Logia/Logia-like future sight user, will always have that problem of getting a hit regardless of how strong they are.
There's a reason he has his ridiculous record of never tasting defeat (until Luffy).

 

[Takuan]

Katakuri can do that very effectively bcos he has future sight and unless the Logia user (whosoever it may be) has future sight, then they're as easy to hit (by armament Haki users) as anyone else.
You are mixing things up here. Katakuri is an exception, not the norm.
That's why Luffy was worried when he attacked him on the Sunny and it phased through. It's the one thing CoA is supposed to give you – ability to hit Logia and render them tangible – yet it failed against Katakuri.

Hence you have Kizaru being unable to use his intangibility as an advantage when battling Rayleigh.
The same with Aokiji and Kizaru when battling Marco, etc.

Katakuri was always an exception and whoever faces him or any other Logia/Logia-like future sight user, will always have that problem of getting a hit regardless of how strong they are.
There's a reason he has his ridiculous record of never tasting defeat (until Luffy).

I agree with you, but didn't Aokiji used that against Whitebeard during Marineford?
When Whitebeard tried to stab Aokiji with his spear and everyone was like ohmahgawd is he dead? And Aokiji was like no! And proceeded to counter attack.
Or when Akainu faced Marco and the rest of the Commanders, pretty sure he got hit at some point and was unfazed. People reacted with lines like "but im sure he was hit with Haki, what the fuck?" Implying that Akainu dodged somehow, by remodelling his body. I might be wrong about it.

Didn't Katakuri manage to avoid hits by creating holes in his body where he saw Luffy punching? And can't logias usually avoid attacks by doing stuff like that? That's what I"m talking about, being able to hit a logia. Can't hurt him if you can't hit him.

Sweet, I love hearing I remembered something correctly.

When I said it'd be harder to hit a logia, I meant that Akainu could spread his body apart and avoid hits like Katakuri did. In terms of hitting Akainu himself, Garp is definitely capable of that, especially since he can hurt Luffy without a problem. I'm not criticizing Garp, I'm talking about most logias' ability to avoid attacks. Like, how Cracker's too weak to take damage, and Luffy can definitely knock him out, but in order to do that he has to get past Cracker's defense.

Ahhh, i see. You're talking about that. I wasn't thinking about that at all xD my bad. I see what you mean now.
Well yeah i guess Akainu could be harder to hit than a Paramecia, for sure. Still though, Whitebeard had no difficult whatsoever touching Akainu, and if you're thinking Garp is Whitebeard level he wouldn't have trouble either.
But overall i can agree that Akainu would be a very troublesome opponent for opponent, indeed.

 

[M3J]

Well, didn't the admirals do that during the war? Granted, they likely didn't deal with haki attacks, but still. Plus, Katakuri can avoid almost any blow whereas the likes of Akainu might not, there's a difference. Can CoA affect a logia who's spread his body apart to avoid the hit, given there's nothing to hit?


Aokiji and Kizaru were going head-to-head with Rayleigh and Marco, not trying to dodge.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 17, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 17, 2019 ---

I agree with you, but didn't Aokiji used that against Whitebeard during Marineford?
When Whitebeard tried to stab Aokiji with his spear and everyone was like ohmahgawd is he dead? And Aokiji was like no! And proceeded to counter attack.
Or when Akainu faced Marco and the rest of the Commanders, pretty sure he got hit at some point and was unfazed. People reacted with lines like "but im sure he was hit with Haki, what the fuck?" Implying that Akainu dodged somehow, by remodelling his body. I might be wrong about it.



Ahhh, i see. You're talking about that. I wasn't thinking about that at all xD my bad. I see what you mean now.
Well yeah i guess Akainu could be harder to hit than a Paramecia, for sure. Still though, Whitebeard had no difficult whatsoever touching Akainu, and if you're thinking Garp is Whitebeard level he wouldn't have trouble either.
But overall i can agree that Akainu would be a very troublesome opponent for opponent, indeed.

Whitebeard kept using his fruit power though, no? Still was unable to keep Akainu down.

 

[Takuan]

Whitebeard kept using his fruit power though, no? Still was unable to keep Akainu down.

He used his fruit, so what? His fruit is part of his strength and power level. If you're saying Garp = Whitbeard in terms of power, that also take WB's fruit into account. That shouldn't be an argument like "WB would have an easier time thanks to his fruit whereas Garp disadvantage because no fruit". Unless the fruit itself gives a natural or whatever advantage in the match up.
Unable to keep Akainu down maybe, but still having the upper hand by a mile; and that's counting his countless injuries and illness. A healthy Whitebeard (i mean still ill but a Whitebeard from before Marineford started and before he could these 999999 injuries throughout the war) would have an even easier time with Akainu.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

I agree with you, but didn't Aokiji used that against Whitebeard during Marineford?
When Whitebeard tried to stab Aokiji with his spear and everyone was like ohmahgawd is he dead? And Aokiji was like no! And proceeded to counter attack.

I saw that too. I'm sure his regular CoO is that good that he'll avoid a deadly blow with it.

Or when Akainu faced Marco and the rest of the Commanders, pretty sure he got hit at some point and was unfazed. People reacted with lines like "but im sure he was hit with Haki, what the fuck?" Implying that Akainu dodged somehow, by remodelling his body. I might be wrong about it.

Akainu didn't really dodge them (perhaps he did some) as he complained about the Haki users in their group. Meaning he felt their attacks but still took them head on since he probably has a stronger CoA than most of them.

Remember that Haki especially CoA wasn't fully fledged pre TS.

 

[M3J]

He used his fruit, so what? His fruit is part of his strength and power level. If you're saying Garp = Whitbeard in terms of power, that also take WB's fruit into account. That shouldn't be an argument like "WB would have an easier time thanks to his fruit whereas Garp disadvantage because no fruit". Unless the fruit itself gives a natural or whatever advantage in the match up.
Unable to keep Akainu down maybe, but still having the upper hand by a mile; and that's counting his countless injuries and illness. A healthy Whitebeard (i mean still ill but a Whitebeard from before Marineford started and before he could these 999999 injuries throughout the war) would have an even easier time with Akainu.

So it means Akainu's freakin' durable and hard as hell to put down or keep down. Look at how Akainu kept coming back for more, even taking out part of Whitebeard's head and trying to kill a mentally broke Luffy. And it should be an argument because it's an advantage, and as you said, part of their power.

I dunno if Whitebeard really had the upper hand in the fight, although Akainu was mostly on the defensive. If Akainu kept getting back up and fighting like he didn't get hit, then it seems to be more of a tie.

 

[Takuan]

So it means Akainu's freakin' durable and hard as hell to put down or keep down. Look at how Akainu kept coming back for more, even taking out part of Whitebeard's head and trying to kill a mentally broke Luffy. And it should be an argument because it's an advantage, and as you said, part of their power.

I dunno if Whitebeard really had the upper hand in the fight, although Akainu was mostly on the defensive. If Akainu kept getting back up and fighting like he didn't get hit, then it seems to be more of a tie.

I know Akainu is durable. Hard as hell to put down and keep down. But that's even harder with Whitebeard. So i don't get why you're thinking Garp would have an easier time defeating Akainu than Whitebeard, using the durability argument. Whitebeard shows his ridiculous durability during Marineford, arguably more than Akainu.
Yes a DF is part of their power. I actually don't get where this is going tbh, im lost. What are we arguing? It began with you saying that Whitebeard dealt with Akainu thanks to his DF so it would be more difficult for Garp who has no DF. Well in that case it goes to show that Garp is inferior to Whitebeard.
Someone like Shanks isn't disregarded because of his lack of DF; why do you give Garp excuses of not having a DF if you think he's Yonko tier?

Meh, in my eyes it felt like Whitebeard was having the upper hand against Akainu. The fact that his last attack made Akainu collapse and put him down for a while, while Whitebeard kept fighting afterwards, shows that in the end Whitebeard was winning. Anyway, as i said, that was a dying Whitebeard we're talking about. Akainu would have had way more difficulty dealing with a healthier Whitebeard.

 

[M3J]

Wait, what? I'm lost too now.

It's not an excuse, but the point is matchups matter. Like, Lucci could be superior to Luffy and still lose to Enel, while Luffy would beat Enel solely because he's resistant to lightning. Garp could fare worse against one enemy and do better against a superior enemy just because the inferior enemy is a logia user who can see into the future, while the superior enemy is just a powerhouse with solid defense.

Perhaps, but the only reason why I think Whitebeard didn't have as much of an upper hand as thought is mainly because Akainu was still fighting, even if he stayed down for a while. For all I know, if the battle went on longer, Whitebeard would have won.

 

[Takuan]

Wait, what? I'm lost too now.

It's not an excuse, but the point is matchups matter. Like, Lucci could be superior to Luffy and still lose to Enel, while Luffy would beat Enel solely because he's resistant to lightning. Garp could fare worse against one enemy and do better against a superior enemy just because the inferior enemy is a logia user who can see into the future, while the superior enemy is just a powerhouse with solid defense.

Perhaps, but the only reason why I think Whitebeard didn't have as much of an upper hand as thought is mainly because Akainu was still fighting, even if he stayed down for a while. For all I know, if the battle went on longer, Whitebeard would have won.

I know match-ups matter. That cmes back to my first post about it. Garp has no immunity, resistance, or weakeness or anything, against neither Akainu's DF nor Whitebeard's DF. So again, that means you're saying that most fighters, unless a DF advantage/disadvantage comes into play, would have an easier time facing Akainu than Whitebeard. Which i disagree with.

But... You're saying yourself that Whitebeard kept fighting the whole time while Akainu was unable to keep fighting for a good while due to Whitebeard's onslaught. How is it not Whitebeard having the upper hand here?

 

[albertwv]

Hey how do you guys rank Lucci & Kaku Pre-TS, to villains in the New World. Do you think White Hody would lose to Lucci? Or even like the Donquixote Pirates, like Gladius or Lao G vs Kaku or Lucci?

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Normally Whitehody > Lucchi Pre TS. Just compare the attacks needed to defeat thoe two. But henchmen wise... it depends against hakiusers like Vergo....he actually could pull something off with his "shockcanon?" since it ignore defense. Henchman below Vergo/Pika should fall to him.

Kaku is hard to compare, since his opponent Zoro didnt fight as much and hard as Luffy yet.

 

[nik87]

Hey how do you guys rank Lucci & Kaku Pre-TS, to villains in the New World. Do you think White Hody would lose to Lucci? Or even like the Donquixote Pirates, like Gladius or Lao G vs Kaku or Lucci?

I think Hody Jones and Lao Geeeeee would win while Gladius would lose to cp9.

 

[albertwv]

I don't know about Hody> Lucci, I believe Pre TS Lucci can defeat Pre TS Kid, Law, and Drake or at least give them a high difficulty fight, also I see Lucci beating Moria. I do not see Hody beating any of them even White Hody form. Post TS Luffy only had trouble with him because they were in the water, so it weakened Luffy.