Discussion NNT versus thread

Merlin918

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Mael vs King
I'll just split these up into the power level debate and the actual advantages each have in tactics and combat options.
Power levels TLDR:King is usually way stronger even near noon, unless it's noon itself(assuming Mael even has The One), based on power scaling he should almost always win.
King's power level is enough to evenly fight the Sinner while at long range, and the Sinner should be at least 1.5x stronger than Chandler/Cusack are individually, so in other words his PL is at least 240'000, probably more. Graces should be 2.5x the power of a Commandment if all of them make up 50% of SD's power, and she is equal to DK. I'd guess a Commandment normally gives 15'000 at minimum, 25'000 at most(Based on commandment members being already strong to qualify for getting a commandment, a commandment should not give them 90% of their power) so a Grace probably gives 50'000 or more. If we assume the Goddess/Demon clans have usually equal base power levels, but Mael is stronger than normal, he probably has 40K base, similar to what Zeldris would have if a commandment gives him 20k. So 40K base means that at 6PM or 6am when Sunshine gives its 'normal' boost amount, his power level is 105'000. So, at any randomly selected time of day Mael more often than not is at a major disadvantage. But let's say being near noon in the range of 11:30AM to 12:30PM pushes the Grace to 2x the normal bonus. Then he's at 170'000. So overall even at his best Mael would usually be at a significant power disadvantage based on the power scaling of the story so far.

Tactics TLDR:King has advantage in range and versatility, and while he lacks durability, it doesn't really matter with the EZmode defense he gains by constantly manipulating multiple chastiefols at once. He autowins unless Mael was somehow even enough in PL to break through his defense in which
case he may instead be rapidly stomped by Mael, since his durability is just that bad where one good melee attack probably is an instant kill.
Mael basically autowins if he lands a hit, given King's trash tier durability with his body, Mael could quite literally just cut him in half and it's done, but despite his glass cannon nature King just has way too many advantages to lose. Chances are he would always use Pollen Garden or Guardian fast enough that Mael can't get close or hit him directly with ranged attacks, meanwhile he is constantly going to have to watch for Chastiefol's attacks and guard those. Unless something stops him from staying focused on Mael I don't see why even against an even PL Mael he could not keep him at bay. All damage to chastiefol is too easily regenerated so the win is decided by whether Mael can ever land hits. One nice thing Mael has going for him is that he can negate Fossilization through Sunshine as it courses within his body and should be able to destroy petrified parts of his body which he can then easily regenerate. But it just seems like King has too many advantages, where as long as Mael is kept away, he's eventually going to get overwhelmed by the many types of chastiefol attacks.

Ban vs King
If it's the Ban that just beat the DK practically solo, King shouldn't be able to do damage. Snatch has never stolen hearts at a very long range before, but if it can, then the PL scaling should make King autolose.

If Nakaba is just messing around with the power scaling and King is not 4x weaker than him or something, then King's wide variety of advantages may give him the win. Strength-steal with Hunter Fest would probably not work as Garan was hit by that due to offering Ban a free hit, and Garan once showed that even supernatural magical attacks that would seem undodgable can be dodged with the proper movement, he could probably also block it with Pollen Garden unless it somehow bypasses defense.

Master of the Sun said:
Post noon Mael vs Ludo
Mael wins with moderate difficulty. Full Counter would seem pretty effective against Ludociel's attacks, and post noon Mael's power level should be around 180'000 allowing him to keep up with Ludo more than enough to counter a lot of attacks.

Master of the Sun said:
Zeldris vs Sinner
Sinner wins easily.

Master of the Sun said:
Zeldris vs King
King wins, not only is the PL gap significantly in King's favor even when Zeldris uses the "God" power boost, but his flight should be able to outpace the gravity of ominous nebula and get out of range, while Zeldris' magic immunity does nothing against Chastiefol's spear/increase/Guardian forms.

Master of the Sun said:
Zeldris vs Ludo
Zeldris wins, their power levels are even when he uses "God" and Ominous Nebula seems to counter the entire fighting style of Flash. If it's Ludociel in his original body then maybe higher difficulty, but Zeldris still wins, or forces Ludociel to retreat, which he can probably pull off well with Flash.

Master of the Sun said:
Sinner vs Ludo
Normally I would say an easy win for the sinner, but that's honestly doubtful after seeing how much Ludociel bodied him while merely in a decaying spirit form and unable to make use of his regeneration abilities for example. If the Sinner is automatically decaying, Ludociel can just retreat with Flash and auto-win, if he's not, then Ludociel would probably refuse to damage him until he's regrouped with more allies that allow him to overwhelm him and make "Crisis" useless.

Master of the Sun said:
Sinner vs King
Seems like King stomps tbh even though that seems weird to me. He was evenly 1v1ing while at long range and Chastiefol can regenerate from any amount of damage. With King's new power up, he can always keep a piece of chastiefol near himself so all damage to a form of chastiefol is non-lasting and can be regenerated.
Master of the Sun said:
Meliodas vs 100% DK
The Demon King should be stomping without question, when "The Ruler" negates literally all forms of damage he can normally use, but given how his soul alone did major damage to the DK's real body in purgatoryI unfortunately must say it's debatable and Meliodas might even kill him one on one. If he could destroy his arm in one hit, then for all we know he might be able to totally vaporize the demon king in a few more.
 

Samael Morningstar

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Mael vs King
Ban vs King
Ban vs Zeldris, Sinner, Ludo, pre noon Mael
The One Escanor vs Ban
The One Mael vs Ban
Post noon Mael vs Ludo
Zeldris vs Sinner
Zeldris vs King
Zeldris vs Ludo
Sinner vs Ludo
Sinner vs King
Meliodas vs 100% DK
1. It's a tie, or mostly Mael wins
2. Ban with mid diff
3. Ban will win if he uses all his abilities
4. One Escanor is a bit above ban in terms of strength but overally ban is superior so ban wins
5. One Mael will smoke ban out of existence
6. Mael has more Raw power but ludo has better techniques and his santuary can tank all most anything from late Post noon mael
It's only near noon when ludo can't hope to be on par with Mael.
7. Maybe sinner not sure
8.zeldris will win he's the perfect counter for king all king can do is pollen garden to protect himself
9. Ludo wins
10. It should be a Tie.
 

Samael Morningstar

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Boulder VS Gods

Discuss.
Boulder has the power of earth and it was so powerful that even if the curse was destroyed by meliodas, the boulder's mere presence revised the curse and killed Elizabeth that alone should tell you who stomps.
 

OtakuFreak

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Boulder has the power of earth and it was so powerful that even if the curse was destroyed by meliodas, the boulder's mere presence revised the curse and killed Elizabeth that alone should tell you who stomps.
Boulder vs literally everyone in the series

Is the boulder too powerful!?
 

Samael Morningstar

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Boulder vs literally everyone in the series

Is the boulder too powerful!?
Boulder speed blitzes all of them the fact that it fell so fast that no one could even react to it.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Boulder San is massively faster than the speed of light
 

Shadowlord123

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Mael vs King
Ban vs King
Ban vs Zeldris, Sinner, Ludo, pre noon Mael
The One Escanor vs Ban
The One Mael vs Ban
Post noon Mael vs Ludo
Zeldris vs Sinner
Zeldris vs King
Zeldris vs Ludo
Sinner vs Ludo
Sinner vs King
Meliodas vs 100% DK
- IMO, it really depends on the time of the day. If it's near noon to noon, I see Mael winning. If it's morning or Post-Noon it's a toss-up, but I would say King takes it.
- Ban wins, he was keeping up with DK possessed Mel even without using his Snatch abilities, who not even King, Mael and Diane at the same time could do anything against.
- Ban still wins, he'll probably need to use some Snatch skills and when he does that it's over. Even if he doesn't use them I can still see him winning.
- Ban wins again. I don't doubt The One Escanor is a beast, but Ban was keeping up with DK possessed Mel. Even if somehow The One is physically stronger than Ban (highly unlikely given his performance with the DK), he can use his Snatch abilities to easily change that.
- I would say Ban still. Mael may be able to overwhelm him at first, but even if he can Ban only needs to use his Snatch abilities to turn the balance into his favour. Ban wins.
- I would say Mael. Ludo was having problems with the Sinner and Mael just oneshotted him. Then again, Ludo took attacks from the DK while dissappearing so I'd say Mael wins with difficulty.
- If we go with statements, Sinner should win, but if we go by feats Zeldris has shown to be far more impressive than this pony. I doubt he has what it takes to bypass ON.
- Hard to say, tbh. Zel's borrowed magic makes all of King's pure magical attacks useless, he still can attack with Chastiefol, Increase and other forms that do physical damage and I don't doubt that he would be able to overwhelm him (he was already doing very well against him with only one form and from far away). The question here is if King can bypass ON or not. Even The One (who in my books is still stronger than King) struggled a little bit to destroy it, and if he gets a couple of hits it may be over for him due to his low durability. Then we have Pollen Garden, which serves as a great defense as well as self-healing. Hard to say tbh, but I see King winning more times than not.
- Zeldris wins. God will render all of Ludo's magical attacks useless and I don't think he can bypass ON with brute force.
- We don't know Sinner's limits with Crisis, but he was already starting to overpower Ludo even before Mael showed up, and Merlin said that if he continued powering up on this rhyme it would be impossible to hold him, so I think he would win with difficulty.
- King wins with difficulty, he was already overpowering him with only one spear and from far away. I don't think Crisis will close the gap enough for him to win.
- I put Mel with OG Magic above 50% DK, but I don't know how he compares with Prime DK. I'm gonna say inconclusive until we get more feats and data.
 

OtakuFreak

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- Zeldris wins. God will render all of Ludo's magical attacks useless and I don't think he can bypass ON with brute force.
It's a stalemate to me in the favour of Ludoshel.

Ludoshel can't bypass ON/DK with his magic and most likely doesn't have the physical strength to do so but his grace should allow him to easily escape the gravitational pull... especially since we saw Human Elizabeth resist it and she's obviously trash compared to Ludoshel in his real body with a speed grace on top of it.

Ludoshel can win if Zeldris runs out of magic and ON cannot be used anymore OR if he can use ''Flash'' to melt his sword (assuming if it's possible).

Zeldris can win but it depends on him being able to drag Ludoshel into ON (which I'm assuming he can't) and even if he does, Ludoshel could shield/heal himself relatively quick against the damage potentially.

Stalemate unless Ludoshel waits for ON to run out, hence in his favour (Zeldris can't win IMO, only draw/delay)
 

Samael Morningstar

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Mael one mode easily beats ban no diff
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I'm seeing a lot of people mistaking late afternoon mael as near noon mael
 

Shadowlord123

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It's a stalemate to me in the favour of Ludoshel.

Ludoshel can't bypass ON/DK with his magic and most likely doesn't have the physical strength to do so but his grace should allow him to easily escape the gravitational pull... especially since we saw Human Elizabeth resist it and she's obviously trash compared to Ludoshel in his real body with a speed grace on top of it.

Ludoshel can win if Zeldris runs out of magic and ON cannot be used anymore OR if he can use ''Flash'' to melt his sword (assuming if it's possible).

Zeldris can win but it depends on him being able to drag Ludoshel into ON (which I'm assuming he can't) and even if he does, Ludoshel could shield/heal himself relatively quick against the damage potentially.

Stalemate unless Ludoshel waits for ON to run out, hence in his favour (Zeldris can't win IMO, only draw/delay)
I see your point. You're saying that Ludoshel can run away from ON using Flash and wait until Zel's magic runs out. In that case, the only thing Zeldris needs to do is turn ON off and wait for Ludo to attack only to turn it on again (he only needs a mere instant to do so).

I don't see how Flash can melt Zel's sword. Even if he can melt it Zeldris can infuse his blade with darkness like he did against Mael and activate ON again (when he was fighting the DK's servant he activated it with that same sword infused with darkness).

And given Ludo's pride I think it's debatable whether he would run away to wait for ON to be turned off. Remember how, even though he knew of ON, he went directly towards him in a human vessel?

I think it also depends on the distance he's from Zeldris. Mael was near Zel and he got pulled instantly, meanwhile Ludo, Eli and the others who were far away, were able to resist it.

It will be a long battle, given Ludo's durability and regeneration but I think Zeldris will win in the long run. Basically there's nothing he can do against him. His magical attacks are going to be nullified by the DK's magic and I doubt he can bypass ON with brute force like The One did.
 
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Samael Morningstar

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Well ludo has sanctuary and I don't see anything from zeldris overpowering or overcoming it
 

Master of the Sun

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How do we know King won' t get crushed against his own Pollen Garden against ON?
 

OtakuFreak

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I see your point. You're saying that Ludoshel can run away from ON using Flash and wait until Zel's magic runs out. In that case, the only thing Zeldris needs to do is turn ON off and wait for Ludo to attack only to turn it on again (he only needs a mere instant to do so).

I don't see how Flash can melt Zel's sword. Even if he can melt it Zeldris can infuse his blade with darkness like he did against Mael and activate ON again (when he was fighting the DK's servant he activated it with that same sword infused with darkness).

And given Ludo's pride I think it's debatable whether he would run away to wait for ON to be turned off. Remember how, even though he knew of ON, he went directly towards him in a human vessel?

I think it also depends on the distance he's from Zeldris. Mael was near Zel and he got pulled instantly, meanwhile Ludo, Eli and the others who were far away, were able to resist it.

It will be a long battle, given Ludo's durability and regeneration but I think Zeldris will win in the long run. Basically there's nothing he can do against him. His magical attacks are going to be nullified by the DK's magic and I doubt he can bypass ON with brute force like The One did.
What's stopping from Ludoshel from turning Sanctuary ON/OFF in response to ON?

If you ask me, neither of them will win since it's the most pointless battle, but it can go either way.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Also @Shadowlord123 - If Zel turns off ON, Ludoshel could probably use his grace to get a strike in before it reactivates.

It looks more favoured to Ludoshel for me, despite it being a pretty much guaranteed draw/stalemate.
 

Shadowlord123

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What's stopping from Ludoshel from turning Sanctuary ON/OFF in response to ON?

If you ask me, neither of them will win since it's the most pointless battle, but it can go either way.
Sanctuary isn't unbreakable. If you ask me, Zeldris should be able to break through at some point. It would be difficult, I'm not going to deny it, after all Sanctuary is one of the best defensive moves on the series along with Pollen Garden.

As I said, it would be a very long battle. Ludoshel's durability, regeneration and defensive capabilities will make it very difficult but at the end of the day, Ludo can't do anything but wait for Zel's magic to run off and we don't know Zel's limits to maintain ON. With the information we have currently, I'd say Zel wins (with difficulty of course).
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Also @Shadowlord123 - If Zel turns off ON, Ludoshel could probably use his grace to get a strike in before it reactivates.

It looks more favoured to Ludoshel for me, despite it being a pretty much guaranteed draw/stalemate.
Ludo will need to be considerably away from him in order to not get pulled by ON. I don't think he will have enough time to get a hit. It's not like Zel is fodder without ON. I'd say it depends on how fast Ludo can go and feat-wise I don't think it's enough. Just my opinion, of course.

Even if he can get a hit, Zeldris just needs to heal with PoD, it's not like Goddesses are the only ones who can heal.

Anyway, let's agree to disagree here.
 
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How do we know King won' t get crushed against his own Pollen Garden against ON?
Because it's not that strong. If it were, Cusack, Chandler, and Escanor wouldn't have been able to brace themselves as they did and be fine. The two demons would've lost their arms and Escanor, his legs.

It's suction is unavoidable, but not killer in itself. King would be fine.

Ludociel vs Zel, Ludo's best bet is to go CQC like he did in Margaret's body. I'm assuming he's still faster than Zel when both are going full power.
 
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MrSchmitty7

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King should beat Zel regardless of ON. If we go by statements and Zel says the sinner is stronger than he is and King can damage the sinner with just one spear then King using other spears should win.

Also ON is very close ranged. It couldn’t attract Elizabeth when she was at a bit of a distance and King is a distance fighter
 

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Mael vs King
Ban vs King
Ban vs Zeldris, Sinner, Ludo, pre noon Mael
The One Escanor vs Ban
The One Mael vs Ban
Post noon Mael vs Ludo
Zeldris vs Sinner
Zeldris vs King
Zeldris vs Ludo
Sinner vs Ludo
Sinner vs King
Meliodas vs 100% DK
If it’s anywhere near noon (like 10-11ish), Mael stomps.
Ban
Ban
I’d also give this to Ban
This ones tough but I think Mael would take it.
Ludo
Zeldris (The sinner ain’t shit!)
Don’t know about this one.
I’d say it’s a tie.
LOL! Ludo obviously.
King hands down!
Meliodas of course. Cuz he’s the MC.
 

OtakuFreak

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Sanctuary isn't unbreakable.
True, but assuming Ludoshel sits afar in his spell what will Zeldris do about that? Last time I checked ON doesn't have long-range capabilities and apparently makes Zeldris unable to move.

Zeldris could probably break or cancel it with his magic immunity potentially hypothetically since it's just the inverse of what his father gave him power-wise but this would require for him to deactivate ON and get in close to Ludoshel, whom has the speed advantage.

If you ask me, Zeldris should be able to break through at some point. It would be difficult, I'm not going to deny it, after all Sanctuary is one of the best defensive moves on the series along with Pollen Garden.
Reference above of course, but he seems only likely to break Sanctuary given if he can get close to it, which requires to deactivate ON and expose himself to Ludoshel.

As I said, it would be a very long battle. Ludoshel's durability, regeneration and defensive capabilities will make it very difficult but at the end of the day, Ludo can't do anything but wait for Zel's magic to run off and we don't know Zel's limits to maintain ON. With the information we have currently, I'd say Zel wins (with difficulty of course).
The same applies to Ludoshel though? We don't know how long he can fully maintain Sanctuary when at full health/magic and nor do we know whom has the larger magic resources out of the two of them, but if I had to pick one I would choose Ludoshel given his higher proficiency in magic (and having a much higher PL).

Unless Ludoshel is relatively close to Zeldris (which we established he can use his grace to disengage pretty easily) OR they're in an enclosed area where ON becomes much more effective & harder to escape than Ludoshel probably doesn't even need Sanctuary to stay back, he can simply use his grace to leap away an appropriate distance and engage everytime Zeldris decides to deactivate ON.

I'm saying it's in the favour of Ludoshel because he simply has more cards to play with less risks. He has a grace to outmanoeuvre ON and keep afar/get in when needed, has a shield which can only be broken when Zeldris deactivates ON and attacks it individually

King should beat Zel regardless of ON. If we go by statements and Zel says the sinner is stronger than he is and King can damage the sinner with just one spear then King using other spears should win.

Also ON is very close ranged. It couldn’t attract Elizabeth when she was at a bit of a distance and King is a distance fighter
It's just a waiting game when it comes to any magical fighter against Zeldris. Whilst the DK's Magic may make him invulnerable to magical attacks (assuming he has it or otherwise King solo's easy), ON is simply too niche/situational since opponents who can evade the pull can simply sit back and wait for Zeldris to run out of magic or deactivate it.

Guardian probably couldn't get through ON without a struggle (it would take a few more tries than Escanor for sure) but it could certainly resist the pull and keep King safe.. assuming he isn't sitting in his pollen garden watching Zeldris suffer.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Mael vs King
Ban vs King
Ban vs Zeldris, Sinner, Ludo, pre noon Mael
The One Escanor vs Ban
The One Mael vs Ban
Post noon Mael vs Ludo
Zeldris vs Sinner
Zeldris vs King
Zeldris vs Ludo
Sinner vs Ludo
Sinner vs King
Meliodas vs 100% DK
1) Mael only wins when his grace gets really powerful (I.E near noon). Remember, Guardian has a resistance to the element of fire/heat since it is made out of water, so its an effective tool against the grace sun until it gets too powerful.

2) I'd say King because he could simply sit inside his bubble and aim for a single cut with his fossilisation form and instantly win, but with Ban's strength & Snatch he could probably get to King before that happens.

3) Bans wins pretty easily.

4) Ban, since he could probably outlast noon.

5) Mael.

6) Depends on what ''post noon'' is. 1 PM? 2PM? Mael's PL is the same at this time than it is at 10 AM/11 AM, which is relatively close to noon. Assuming it's not 11AM/1PM then Ludoshel should win given his grace is stronger when sun isn't near noon.

7) Zeldris probably couldn't kill him with ON or with his own power but The Sinner would simply kill himself through ''Crisis'' - So Zeldris.

8) King.

9) Ludoshel.

10) Ludoshel

11) King.

12) Obviously the Demon King unless Nakaba decides to ass-pull another powerup out of nowhere.
 

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Elizabeth light wings mode vs Full power Ludociel
 

Shadowlord123

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Elizabeth light wings mode vs Full power Ludociel
Elizabeth seems to have more raw power than Ludo in this state, given how she was able to pressure the Induras while Ludo couldn't do anything (he was also holding back to be fair) and how did she push everyone back including Ludo by the mere release. The problem here is that this state seems to have a time limit and exhausts Elizabeth considerably. Ludo is the faster one, so he can keep dodging her attacks until she runs out of magic and then win.

If it's a head-on confrontation I'd say Eli can win with high to extreme difficulty, she may have more magic power but Ludo has better feats in the physical and speed departments, making it hard to decide. If Ludo does what I said earlier, he wins. Overall, I'd say Ludo more times than not as of now, until we see more Elizabeth feats.

True, but assuming Ludoshel sits afar in his spell what will Zeldris do about that? Last time I checked ON doesn't have long-range capabilities and apparently makes Zeldris unable to move.

Zeldris could probably break or cancel it with his magic immunity potentially hypothetically since it's just the inverse of what his father gave him power-wise but this would require for him to deactivate ON and get in close to Ludoshel, whom has the speed advantage.
I mean, he doesn't need to do anything. If Ludo is far away with Sanctuary the only thing Zel needs to do is turn off ON and wait for him to come close only to activate it again.

He most likely could, like you said, nullify Sanctuary with the DK's magic. Then Ludo could have a chance to do something, but tbh I don't think he could do much. Thanks to the DK's magic, Ludo can't attack him with magical attacks , he needs to rely on his speed and physical strength. He's above him in speed at least true, but the difference is not that much. Even Mael, who relies more on physical strength than Ludo had a hard time against 2nd DM Zel (he was even considerably hurt from one attack). What I want to say is that Zel is fairly strong even without ON and while I think Ludo wins without ON, I don't think it would be easy at all.

The same applies to Ludoshel though? We don't know how long he can fully maintain Sanctuary when at full health/magic and nor do we know whom has the larger magic resources out of the two of them, but if I had to pick one I would choose Ludoshel given his higher proficiency in magic (and having a much higher PL).

Unless Ludoshel is relatively close to Zeldris (which we established he can use his grace to disengage pretty easily) OR they're in an enclosed area where ON becomes much more effective & harder to escape than Ludoshel probably doesn't even need Sanctuary to stay back, he can simply use his grace to leap away an appropriate distance and engage everytime Zeldris decides to deactivate ON.

I'm saying it's in the favour of Ludoshel because he simply has more cards to play with less risks. He has a grace to outmanoeuvre ON and keep afar/get in when needed, has a shield which can only be broken when Zeldris deactivates ON and attacks it individually
I agree that it also depends on where the battle takes place. A closed space would be more favourable to Zeldris, while a large space could benefit Ludo more.

Ludoshel needs to get close to Zeldris to actually win, and while I agree that he would hold the advantage in close combat thanks to his Grace, I don't think the difference is too much like I said earlier. Not to mention that he can activate ON suddenly (it only takes an instant) to suck Ludo. Mael was already getting suck without resistance and he was dozens of meters away from him. What would happen if Zeldris activates ON while Ludo is on his face? I don't think Ludo could escape from that.

Anyway, I think this debate won't lead us to anywhere. There's too many variables to take into account. Both of us agree that the battle will be long and difficult for both of them. You favour Ludo slightly more, while I favour Zeldris slightly more.
 
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