Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.
Makes me wonder what Weevil's DF is, and why such a strong individual is so freaking stupid. I still wonder if Bakkin has some kinda fruit to stupify people. His level of intelligence is some serious low-functioning autism level stuff. Has One Piece had many people who were exceedingly powerful but low intellect? He literally had to ask if a picture of Whitebeard was a mirror or a photograph. The character is basically a nod to the Majin Buu / Babidi dynamic. That alone makes me wonder if he will be an ally of Luffy eventually instead of an enemy. I could see Luffy's goofy self somehow saying something without thinking, about Bakkin, and completely unraveling whatever lies she's fed Weevil.
If Weevil is prime-Whitebeard level and manages to come to Wano, things would get very interesting. So far I kinda believe the fact that he's prime WB level. He's been showing up to question Whitebeard's old allies / crew, and doing so alone, and able to defeat whole crews while remaining unscathed. That's not anything someone short of a Yonko could do. Maybe Kaido / BM / Akainu could pull it off.
Buu+Babidi is a nice parallel, basically the same thing except that Bakkin might be powerful too considering what kind of monsters were on that ship 40 years ago. Yeah, becoming an ally is definitely a possibility, after Bakkin is taken out Weevil is probably easy to manipulate/befriend.
I dont know if Weevil = Primebeard is including the DF or just physical strength. If only physical strength is identical then he is overall weaker than WB since he lacks a DF but as you said he might have a DF to be equal to Primebeard. If he is equal to Primebeard with DF included while Weevil only has physical strength then that would be insane, he would be stepping into Kaido and Big Mom level of physical strength and possibly surpassing them.
I never took Weevil strength so seriously, i didn't even remember that statement from Kizaru. I always take this kind of boast with a grain of salt. Like when Fujitora talked about Luffy (which ended being misleading to say the least, btw). But it would be interesting to see he in Wano trading punches with some heavy players.
I am not complaining about anyone in particular, and I do like discussion and having different arguments. But I think it is pointless to discuss the exact same thing with the exact same arguments and counterarguments over the course of multiple pages. Quite many users here do that, and I probably have been no exception. But I think that if the disagreement is so severe that it becomes impossible to argue without repeating oneself, then it is probably better to just stop and feel free to disagree.
This thought always crosses my mind but usually when i bring this to light @M3J complains i should stop meddling with other people's affairs and let them talk about what they want.
And sorry if it was rude. I said 'stupid' in an affectionate way. Because we are all grownup men using most of our intellect to discuss about a fictional childish world.
You have to read between the lines. Characters say things and you have to be able to unearth what is true and what isn't. You have to be able to tell what is probably a joke and what is just really a filler comment to just make the story interesting for the sake of drama.
When a character says something, you have to read it in context. We see Shojo, he never actually said he was going to replace Crocodile, he said he would probably. Probably doesn't mean he will. Nothing really leads us to believe he's of such calibre.
He just wrecked the Straw Hats ship, with just his voice. He had one of the highest bounties that were revealed at that time, even if it was much lower than Crocodile's
At that point in time, the Admirals didn't exist, we didn't know what Yonko are, etc.
Maybe you were a kid then who though robots and high-tech battleships were cool, but those aren't what qualify one as possibly being anything.
Well, I was a kid. But I was never much into robots sorry.
Still it was already clear that the Shishibukai were chosen for their power, and a ship is part of those powers in a world of Pirates. Keep in mind we didn't have much for comparison back then.
We can see he looks funny for one, his crew look funny too, they look like comical characters. Especially when a character is new and depending on how they're introduced, their words have to be taken with a grain of salt until more of their character is known in order to determine whether the things they say are true or not.
Weevil looks funny too. He actually looks ridiculous, and such a character design wouldn't work in most other Manga. But in One Piece it's not really a standout.
Just look at the things he says. He says he wants to be a Shichibukai and follows up with "the fantastic thing about me is I'm 25 and never cut my hair before". That's clearly a joke. It's not the kind of thing that inspires us to take his words seriously within that context.
Being funny or joking doesn't make one weaker. Back in that day, Mr. 2 could have been considered a strong character.
Buggy for example claims he'll defeat Whitebeard, and he'll become Pirate King, but we know that won't happen because for the most part, Buggy is a comic-gag character. By reading between the lines, we're able to tell exactly when and when not to take things characters say seriously.
For example, Koby says he's going to become a Navy Admiral. Reason we can believe that is because he's a character who truly wished to be in the Navy and fight for the right cause; he was inspired by Luffy who aims to be Pirate King; we see he's hardworking and he's usually serious; all of these factors allow us to conclude that when Koby says that, the author really means he will progress to such a level. We're seeing how Koby has evolved over the years from being an utter weakling to being able to take on submarines that others can't detect and destroy rockets with his bare hands.
If Buggy said he would become a Navy Admiral, we know he's a joke and it's not going to happen. Shojo might have said everything he said, but then again, the context would show otherwise about his apparent ability to be a Shichibukai.
At that time, Shojo was barely introduced and he showed the ability to destroy Merry with just his voice. We had no real idea what the Shishibukai are either. Seven powerful Pirates affiliated with the WG, sure. But we had no idea what their upper and lower ends are, no idea where Mihawk and Crocodile place within that group and no perspective about the overall size of the story. The context was only there multiple chapters later, when Doflamingo and Kuma were introduced, just like Blackbeard and Whitebeard, and Sengoku, as well as confirming Shanks, in other words a good chunk of the upper echolon of power. Meanwhile Shojo turned out to be a dreamer, and then got defeated by Bellamy, who then in turn got one-shot by Luffy. Only then we had the context - a volume later.
Also Buggy was always comical and goofy, but Loguetown arc back in that day seemed to set him up as a serious rival, with him coming close to actually executing Luffy, then deciding to follow him on the Grand Line.
It has nothing to do with experiencing Crocodile, his character was just not a serious one to begin with for us to give him any benefits of the doubt regarding his claims and statements.
Not everything that is said has any meaning or can be taken seriously. Have to read between the lines. Nami might say she hates Sanji, but if you read in context, you know it's just a filler statement to merely build up drama and such. Not something to take as an absolute fact.
It is not filler, at that point Nami was seriously disappointed and angry about Sanji and she wanted to make him know. But this again proves that not all dialogue should be taken literaly, because as you said she doesn't truly hate Sanji. Hate is a very strong word, with which we are for some reason still very lenient in conversation.
When Whitebeard says he fought with Roger and is capable of destroying the world, we know that's a fact. There's no reason to not believe him given his actions, his demeanour, his introduction, his status, his strength, etc. It's all about context.
We wouldn't take the "power to destroy" literaly without the Gura Gura no Mi. If he wouldn't be in possession of such a power, we would have assumed they were figuratively speaking.
Now Kizaru said something about strength. Strength is a multi faceted concept, but given the context we can deduce he is talking about either physical strength or battle strength. The former can be measured scientifically, but I don't think Kizaru had them lifting weights next to each other. The latter is always subjective, unless one does a qualitative study with predefined criteria of what is strong and what is stronger.
He just wrecked the Straw Hats ship, with just his voice. He had one of the highest bounties that were revealed at that time, even if it was much lower than Crocodile's
At that point in time, the Admirals didn't exist, we didn't know what Yonko are, etc.
Well, I was a kid. But I was never much into robots sorry.
Still it was already clear that the Shishibukai were chosen for their power, and a ship is part of those powers in a world of Pirates. Keep in mind we didn't have much for comparison back then.
Weevil looks funny too. He actually looks ridiculous, and such a character design wouldn't work in most other Manga. But in One Piece it's not really a standout.
Being funny or joking doesn't make one weaker. Back in that day, Mr. 2 could have been considered a strong character.
True.
At that time, Shojo was barely introduced and he showed the ability to destroy Merry with just his voice. We had no real idea what the Shishibukai are either. Seven powerful Pirates affiliated with the WG, sure. But we had no idea what their upper and lower ends are, no idea where Mihawk and Crocodile place within that group and no perspective about the overall size of the story. The context was only there multiple chapters later, when Doflamingo and Kuma were introduced, just like Blackbeard and Whitebeard, and Sengoku, as well as confirming Shanks, in other words a good chunk of the upper echolon of power. Meanwhile Shojo turned out to be a dreamer, and then got defeated by Bellamy, who then in turn got one-shot by Luffy. Only then we had the context - a volume later.
Also Buggy was always comical and goofy, but Loguetown arc back in that day seemed to set him up as a serious rival, with him coming close to actually executing Luffy, then deciding to follow him on the Grand Line.
It is not filler, at that point Nami was seriously disappointed and angry about Sanji and she wanted to make him know. But this again proves that not all dialogue should be taken literaly, because as you said she doesn't truly hate Sanji. Hate is a very strong word, with which we are for some reason still very lenient in conversation.
We wouldn't take the "power to destroy" literaly without the Gura Gura no Mi. If he wouldn't be in possession of such a power, we would have assumed they were figuratively speaking.
Now Kizaru said something about strength. Strength is a multi faceted concept, but given the context we can deduce he is talking about either physical strength or battle strength. The former can be measured scientifically, but I don't think Kizaru had them lifting weights next to each other. The latter is always subjective, unless one does a qualitative study with predefined criteria of what is strong and what is stronger.
Dude arguing with him, and you know who I'm talking about, is pointless. He'll give 6 pages of crap and talk to you like your 6 years old and explain things in great detail that need no explanation. Honestly, these days I just ignore his posts almost entirely.
He just wrecked the Straw Hats ship, with just his voice. He had one of the highest bounties that were revealed at that time, even if it was much lower than Crocodile's
At that point in time, the Admirals didn't exist, we didn't know what Yonko are, etc.
There are many DF abilities and the fact he had a much lower bounty too could indicate he#d not have been a likely replacement for someone with an 80 million bounty.
Admirals didn't need to exist.
Iit's all a matter of context and reading between the lines.
You don't just look at 1 detail, you look at everything and see how it lines up.
Shojo wasn't represented in anyway that gave us good reason to take him seriously.
Well, I was a kid. But I was never much into robots sorry.
Still it was already clear that the Shishibukai were chosen for their power, and a ship is part of those powers in a world of Pirates. Keep in mind we didn't have much for comparison back then.
Exactly, you were a kid. So, just because you took it seriously then is because you were young. Unlikely that you were as discerning or as well-versed in literature as you are now.
A ship is not really a power. It's just a mode of transportation. Thing is nevertheless, there wasn't much to give us reason for him to be taken seriously. His introduction wasn't emphatic as Crocodile's was. More so, at that point in time, any big shot would be introduced in a manner that implied they were threatening and to be feared - e.g. Reputation and anecdotes which Crocodile had. Shojo had no such thing to really reverberate or exude such impressions to the reader.
Weevil looks funny too. He actually looks ridiculous, and such a character design wouldn't work in most other Manga. But in One Piece it's not really a standout.
Have to look at everything and see how it all lines up.
Weevil may look funny, but he's defeated 16 Whitebeard fleets and is said to be as strong as Whitebeard in his prime by Kizaru. Marco is also not going to hunt him which speaks volumes of his strength, but rather, staying in case he appears. If he were fodder, one of those 16 would have defeated him. It's all about context.
At that time, Shojo was barely introduced and he showed the ability to destroy Merry with just his voice. We had no real idea what the Shishibukai are either. Seven powerful Pirates affiliated with the WG, sure. But we had no idea what their upper and lower ends are, no idea where Mihawk and Crocodile place within that group and no perspective about the overall size of the story. The context was only there multiple chapters later, when Doflamingo and Kuma were introduced, just like Blackbeard and Whitebeard, and Sengoku, as well as confirming Shanks, in other words a good chunk of the upper echolon of power. Meanwhile Shojo turned out to be a dreamer, and then got defeated by Bellamy, who then in turn got one-shot by Luffy. Only then we had the context - a volume later.
Also Buggy was always comical and goofy, but Loguetown arc back in that day seemed to set him up as a serious rival, with him coming close to actually executing Luffy, then deciding to follow him on the Grand Line.
Destroying a ship is not a big deal and has never been a big deal in the series. We'd already been acquainted with Crocodile. At the very least, there was no character that had the same impact or introduction that he had, No one was speaking about him, no tales about him, he wasn't really popular, he was not introduced in a way befitting of anyone special. His introduction was entirely comical from appearance to the things he stated.
Even if you want to say multiple chapters later, that's still a part of the context. A chapter comes simply after a week. Of course it also has to do with build up and the later chapters didn't really give us reason to take him seriously.
After a chapter or 2, it becomes painfully obvious he's fodder and just a gag character.
It is not filler, at that point Nami was seriously disappointed and angry about Sanji and she wanted to make him know. But this again proves that not all dialogue should be taken literaly, because as you said she doesn't truly hate Sanji. Hate is a very strong word, with which we are for some reason still very lenient in conversation.
You're misunderstanding my use of the word filler.
You just contradicted yourself here.
You just said it's not filler, she was really angry (based on what she said), but then you said not every dialogue should be taken literally when you just... took her anger towards Sanji literally.
Like I said, the reason I called that "filler" is because it's not a temporary event. It's not an on-going hatred. It's just filler for drama.
Dialogue must be taken seriously depending on context.
You cannot claim that Zoro saying he wants to become the World's strongest Swordsman is not a fact. All the context tell us it is a fact. It's not just a filler statement for the purpose of adding drama to a certain scene or story-line, it's a fundamental aspect of the character.
Like I said, it's a matter of reading in context and understanding when things are to be taken seriously and when it's simply just filler. If one is able to read between the lines, it's easy to tell what is not important and what is important.
We wouldn't take the "power to destroy" literaly without the Gura Gura no Mi. If he wouldn't be in possession of such a power, we would have assumed they were figuratively speaking.
Now Kizaru said something about strength. Strength is a multi faceted concept, but given the context we can deduce he is talking about either physical strength or battle strength. The former can be measured scientifically, but I don't think Kizaru had them lifting weights next to each other. The latter is always subjective, unless one does a qualitative study with predefined criteria of what is strong and what is stronger.
We don't need Kizaru to scientifically measure how much each can lift to ascertain strength.
It's not like Roger and Whitebeard were put on some scale and measured to determine that both were equal in strength.
It's pretty clear that it's referring to physical strength as the keyword is: Prime.
Physical strength is the only thing power-wise that declines with age and is highest in one's prime.
Physical strength or battle strength, same thing. Changing the words doesn't change anything.
Qualitative study is hardly necessary. It's pretty straight-forward.
Nevertheless, the fact the Manga has been so specific to compare him to Whitebeard simply means that's the case. No evidence to prove or say otherwise.
It's simply convenient to deny things one don't want to believe especially when they don't like it.
When an Admiral, the strongest in the Navy is telling us that someone is as strong as someone else, there's simply no functioning logic to say otherwise. It's really that simple.
In fact, just to prove that you're refusing to not take Kizaru's words seriously regarding Weevil for no good reason.
When Law said the chances of defeating Kaido was around 30%, did you say:
Well, has Law met Kaido before to really determine that?
Has Law fought with Kaido before to really determine that?
How can we believe what Law said?
Based on the logic you're using here, you're saying it's fine to say since Law probably has no experience of Kaido much like you assume Kizaru has no experience of Whitebeard in his prime or Weevil, that maybe the chances of actually defeating Kaido could be 70-80%? You probably didn't, you probably just believed it off the bat, why? context, so to then question Weevil here is a double standard when there's really no reason to question something that we're given no context to question, but rather, simply accept.
I never took Weevil strength so seriously, i didn't even remember that statement from Kizaru. I always take this kind of boast with a grain of salt. Like when Fujitora talked about Luffy (which ended being misleading to say the least, btw). But it would be interesting to see he in Wano trading punches with some heavy players.
This thought always crosses my mind but usually when i bring this to light @M3J complains i should stop meddling with other people's affairs and let them talk about what they want.
And sorry if it was rude. I said 'stupid' in an affectionate way. Because we are all grownup men using most of our intellect to discuss about a fictional childish world.
I don't remember saying that. Only when it comes to HP because he doesn't do a good job of arguing his point, usually, and has the same points. "Consistency, read between lines, and LUFFY MAIN CHARACTER!!" Would be good if he actually did consider different possibilities or points of view instead of being deadset on his.
I was joking... And we're also using real life physics to explain theories in the manga as well, despite the fact that the manga rarely meets the law of physics of real life.
. And we're also using real life physics to explain theories in the manga as well, despite the fact that the manga rarely meets the law of physics of real life.
And have you considered that this is probably why HP tends to reiterate those same points - which might not be fun to read if I may add.
You just said it here yourself. Knowing real world physics rarely/doesn't apply, yet you are brewing theories from that.
It's like knowing a certain company's business will fail yet you keep investing and pumping money into said company. Awesome!
Some theories are certainly dead on arrival and it's not wrong to assume this kind aren't hence a straight forward debunk from the smartest heads on the forum.
Difference of opinion is always welcome but not to the point of ignoring Manga evidences and facts.
Shirley says "Luffy will destroy FI" and Oda backs her up by introducing the fact that her predictions never fail.
He further shows us a silhouette of Luffy and I don't recall a single moment when Oda's silhouette of a character fails to match up the actual characters reveal.
We've had numerous occasions and most recently with the characters of Wano like Ashura, King and Queen, and other members of the 9 red scabbard.
Everyone's free to have an opinion but at least let's acknowledge evidences when we see one.
Theories shouldn't be made just for the sake of theory or preference for a particular view, rather, it should be evident based (if one hopes to be correct).
Just ask everyone of those theorist who predicted/jumped to the conclusion of:
1) Kaido has multiple DFs.
2) RA including Monkey D Dragon and Sabo are killed/captured by BB in his invasion at Baltigo.
3) Shirew of the rain gets diamond DF.
4) Sanji vs Katakuri.
5) Zoro's 2 opponents at Ringo were fodder characters.
Every single one of them was wrong due to the theorists ignoring evidences from the Manga.
Hence, we know:
1) Only one man has been able to achieve this.
2) BB has the most destructive fruit in the world means Baltigo will not survive but given the lofty ambition and strength of RA, no one significant will be killed/captured.
3) Mere wishful thinking since even Marco's fruit is more precious than the Diamond. Yet BB didn't get his hands on it and we know the WB pirates lost.
4) Yet again wishful thinking. Someone who was ragdolled by Doflamingo has nothing to do with the second in command/strongest commander of a Yonko.
5) Zoro can't get severely injured by fodder characters. It's not his style.
And have you considered that this is probably why HP tends to reiterate those same points - which might not be fun to read if I may add.
You just said it here yourself. Knowing real world physics rarely/doesn't apply, yet you are brewing theories from that.
It's like knowing a certain company's business will fail yet you keep investing and pumping money into said company. Awesome!
Some theories are certainly dead on arrival and it's not wrong to assume this kind aren't hence a straight forward debunk from the smartest heads on the forum.
Difference of opinion is always welcome but not to the point of ignoring Manga evidences and facts.
Shirley says "Luffy will destroy FI" and Oda backs her up by introducing the fact that her predictions never fail.
He further shows us a silhouette of Luffy and I don't recall a single moment when Oda's silhouette of a character fails to match up the actual characters reveal.
We've had numerous occasions and most recently with the characters of Wano like Ashura, King and Queen, and other members of the 9 red scabbard.
Everyone's free to have an opinion but at least let's acknowledge evidences when we see one.
Or twisting manga evidence and facts and statements, which is what often happens.
Yeah, but again, Oda can just as easily mislead us. Although, I was arguing that Luffy would destroy Fishman Island or fight for it which either way would end in the fishmen moving up to the land and living among humans. Unlike WCI, he's very likely to go back to FI because he actually has connection to that place that isn't limited to just one person.
Theories shouldn't be made just for the sake of theory or preference for a particular view, rather, it should be evident based (if one hopes to be correct).
Theories can be made for those two reasons as well, to be honest, just because there might not always be a clear evidence until way later. There's also tons of possibility early on
Just ask everyone of those theorist who predicted/jumped to the conclusion of:
1) Kaido has multiple DFs.
2) RA including Monkey D Dragon and Sabo are killed/captured by BB in his invasion at Baltigo.
3) Shirew of the rain gets diamond DF.
4) Sanji vs Katakuri.
5) Zoro's 2 opponents at Ringo were fodder characters.
Every single one of them was wrong due to the theorists ignoring evidences from the Manga.
Hence, we know:
1) Only one man has been able to achieve this.
2) BB has the most destructive fruit in the world means Baltigo will not survive but given the lofty ambition and strength of RA, no one significant will be killed/captured.
3) Mere wishful thinking since even Marco's fruit is more precious than the Diamond. Yet BB didn't get his hands on it and we know the WB pirates lost.
4) Yet again wishful thinking. Someone who was ragdolled by Doflamingo has nothing to do with the second in command/strongest commander of a Yonko.
5) Zoro can't get severely injured by fodder characters. It's not his style.
2) But, if the RA or Dragon and Sabo were captured or killed, the news would definitely cover that? Unless you mean before we learned the results? I don't remember the timeline though, whether we learned Blackbeard invaded Baltigo but didn't get Dragon and Sabo or we learned he invaded and then chapters later learned he didn't get Dragon or Sabo. But that's the case of you saying they ignored evidence or hints from the manga.
4) match-ups matter, and even Luffy would have lost if it weren't for Gear 4 against Doflamingo. And there's no evidence to really state that Sanji couldn't go up against Katakuri.
5) ZOro has an excuse in that he got distracted. Plus, no one can argue that he can't use CoO since it's been established solidly that he can at the end of FI, when Caribou was about to kidnap Shirahoshi.
4) match-ups matter, and even Luffy would have lost if it weren't for Gear 4 against Doflamingo. And there's no evidence to really state that Sanji couldn't go up against Katakuri.
First, there's power level, then there's match up. Sanji isn't anywhere close to Doflamingo's level for him to stand a chance much less against Katakuri.
If the match up wasn't bad enough with Doffy then I wonder how worse it'd be with someone who can actually render him motionless with one stroke of Mochi.
It's debatable if Luffy could've defeated Doflamingo without Gear 4. He only buffed up in order to take him down pretty quick due to the time limit as Doffy could tank hits well. Meanwhile, the people were getting closer to their deaths with every passing minute of the bird cage.
And let's stop treating G4 like it's some kind of cheat that gives him unfair advantage over others. It's one of Luffy's techniques much like Diable Jambe is to Sanji, and Onigiri or Shinshinsonson (or whatever the technique is called) is to Zoro.
But more importantly, there really isn't evidence to suggest Luffy would've lost or defeated Doflamingo without G4.
I never took Weevil strength so seriously, i didn't even remember that statement from Kizaru. I always take this kind of boast with a grain of salt. Like when Fujitora talked about Luffy (which ended being misleading to say the least, btw). But it would be interesting to see he in Wano trading punches with some heavy players.
It's only what, 2-3 weeks after what Fujitora said, and he's about to defeat Kaido. What Fujitora said was true.
Like I said before, if Oda wanted Luffy to defeat Big Mom, all he had to do was make him stronger the same way he's doing so against Kaido.
It's not a matter of Fujitora being wrong, it;s a matter of plot.
It's literally taken what, 2 days of training to develop the new Armament and 1 day for Observation. What's 2-3 days of training? If anything, it confirms what Fujitora said as Luffy being capable of defeating Emperors and Admirals.
Thing is people tend to have double standards. If Fujitora said Marco was as strong as Whitebeard in his prime, people would gobble that up nicely because Marco has a six pack and he;'s an easily likeable character. In fact, people would probably take that statement and claim that Blackbeard only defeated Marco recently because Marco got weaker.
First, there's power level, then there's match up. Sanji isn't anywhere close to Doflamingo's level for him to stand a chance much less against Katakuri.
If the match up wasn't bad enough with Doffy then I wonder how worse it'd be with someone who can actually render him motionless with one stroke of Mochi.
It's debatable if Luffy could've defeated Doflamingo without Gear 4. He only buffed up in order to take him down pretty quick due to the time limit as Doffy could tank hits well. Meanwhile, the people were getting closer to their deaths with every passing minute of the bird cage.
And let's stop treating G4 like it's some kind of cheat that gives him unfair advantage over others. It's one of Luffy's techniques much like Diable Jambe is to Sanji, and Onigiri or Shinshinsonson (or whatever the technique is called) is to Zoro.
But more importantly, there really isn't evidence to suggest Luffy would've lost or defeated Doflamingo without G4.
Sanji was unable to do anything to Doflamingo, but Doflamingo also had to bind up Sanji and make him unable to move. and yeah I was thinking that, but if Sanji can move quickly enough then he could deal with mochi. But then again, I don't think he could move fast enough to deal with Future Sight.
Doflamingo himself did say that Gear 2 was fast but lacked power while Gear 3 had power but lacked speed. Gear 4 combined both and made it even better. Gear 4 does give Luffy advantage that others don't get. Without Gear 4, he'd have been screwed like Sanji was when bound because he'd have had no way to break out of the strings without cutting himself. I'm not saying it's a cheat, but again, matchups matter.
Weren't Luffy's attacks ineffective against Doflamingo, for reasons I already stated? It'd be one thing if it connected and gradually did damage but Doflamingo himself said he barely felt anything.
4) match-ups matter, and even Luffy would have lost if it weren't for Gear 4 against Doflamingo. And there's no evidence to really state that Sanji couldn't go up against Katakuri.
Joker got hurt by those so-called Gear 2nd attacks you called weak.
In fact, he's getting hurt by base attacks.
We see him dodge and avoid base attacks from Luffy, and you think Luffy's attacks didn't hurt? No point dodging something that doesn't hurt. If Joker wasn't hurt, he'd simply have let Luffy hit him all he wanted as proof his attacks were useless like Kaido did against Gear 4th.
If you read with context, you'd see the only reason Joker said Luffy's attacks lacks power is only because Joker changed the orientation of the fight.
It's common knowledge that an Eagle Bazooka is superior to a base punch or kick. Luffy made Joker bleed with a base punch and kick, yet an Eagle Bazooka isn't making him bleed despite being a stronger attack? That's like claiming that it makes sense for Luffy to be able to hurt Kaido in his base form, but not with Gear 4th attacks.
Like I said before, OP requires reading between the lines.
When Joker decided to fight in the air, that's when Luffy's attacks began to lack power.
Floating in the air reduces inertia (resistance to movement) which means the power of any attack is greatly reduced. In simple terms, when friction is increased, it's easier to transfer the entirety of a force to another object and when reduced, it's harder.
If someone held paper at all 4 corners, it's easy to transfer a force that damages it (e.g. punching a hole through paper) as opposed to hitting paper that's simply floating... almost no amount of punching power would create a hole in that paper because the inertia is reduced/friction is reduced and the only result is the paper moving without getting damaged as was the case against Joker.
There;'s a reason Joker is called the Heavenly Demon and a reason he told Luffy fighting in the air is his forte. He's able to reduce the power of attacks because the ability to fight in the air allows him to reduce the impact of received damage by reducing his inertia.
While match-ups matter, you're naive or rather, conveniently disregarding that no matter how well 1 person may match up against another character, if the opponent is simply superior to their opponent, then match ups would be irrelevant. Law's ability is a great match-up against ANY opponent. Fact is despite that, if his opponent is simply superior to him, that advantage is easily negated.
There's a limitation to matching up on paper and theoretically, but there's really no limitation to simply being overwhelmingly stronger than your opponent.
There's no evidence Sanji even matched up with Katakuri, what, because he can create fire? Mochi isn't weak against fire, otherwise Luffy would simply have needed Red Hawks to take Katakuri down. Even so, if one wants to convince themselves Sanji was a good match-up for Katakuri when his style of combat is fundamentally the same as Luffy's (closed combat), he's still vastly inferior.
It's only what, 2-3 weeks after what Fujitora said, and he's about to defeat Kaido. What Fujitora said was true.
Like I said before, if Oda wanted Luffy to defeat Big Mom, all he had to do was make him stronger the same way he's doing so against Kaido.
It's not a matter of Fujitora being wrong, it;s a matter of plot.
It's literally taken what, 2 days of training to develop the new Armament and 1 day for Observation. What's 2-3 days of training? If anything, it confirms what Fujitora said as Luffy being capable of defeating Emperors and Admirals.
Thing is people tend to have double standards. If Fujitora said Marco was as strong as Whitebeard in his prime, people would gobble that up nicely because Marco has a six pack and he;'s an easily likeable character. In fact, people would probably take that statement and claim that Blackbeard only defeated Marco recently because Marco got weaker.
So according to you, Fujitora stated that Luffy could fight the Emperors, and that was true, but could also be wrong, because of... plot? What?
If that was the case, Fujitora would be dead wrong, since when Luffy tried to fight an Emperor he was defeated in the blink of an eye.
Luffy: Who says I have to run... just because you're an Admiral?!! Tht Pattern ended two years ago!!! Bartolomeo: Whut?
Luffy: I don't care if you're a Marine Admiral... or an Emperor of the Sea!!! If I don't beat each and every one of you... I'll never be the Pirate King!!!! [...]
Luffy: I'm not running away anymore!!! Huff!! Fujitora: I can tell you've got the strength to back your words! I appreciative your spirit, youngster... but--!! Huff!!
But that is only according to you. In the context, it seems Fujitora was telling Luffy he had the strength to fight him specifically, not everyone who carries the title of Admiral or Emperor.
Maybe what Fujitora said shouldn't be taken too seriously. Luffy wasn't even using Gear 4 there, and without it he could barely touch the Emperor underlings.
But that is only according to you. In the context, it seems Fujitora was telling Luffy he had the strength to fight him specifically, not everyone who carries the title of Admiral or Emperor.
If you read what was said properly, Luffy was talking about the Emperors and the Admirals, not just Fujitora, and Fujitora agreed with what Luffy said.
Where did Luffy say "I can fight you, I don't have to run away from you anymore"? He said Emperors and Admirals, not Fujitora.
Maybe what Fujitora said shouldn't be taken too seriously. Luffy wasn't even using Gear 4 there, and without it he could barely touch the Emperor underlings.
Assuming you read what was said comprehensively, plot is what determines how things play out.
If Oda wants to save a character for a later arc, he simply won't have them defeated. That's plot.
If Oda wants a character defeated, he'll give Luffy the strength necessary to defeat them.
The only thing plot does is prolong the inevitable.
Luffy can defeat Big Mom or Kaido, fact is only reason it may or may not happen would simply be due to because Oda has plans for said character for another arc.
If you even read the OP magazines and didn't just jump blindly with assumptions, Oda more said Luffy gained the strength to defeat the Emperors.
There's nothing that can be known without the dialogue bud.
You use future events that have not happened in the series yet as evidence. Honestly you are terrible at making predictions, and I don't see the point of arguing with with about your fan theories.
And what does Luffy being "too much of an adult" has to do with anything?
Oh, ironic coming from the guy who kept insisting Luffy would take on and even beat Big Mom despite his difficulty in beating Cracker. Big Mom didn't even feel his Gear 4 punch.
Yeah, criticise Joker for using his powers as an excuse for why Sanji lost and almost died.
Yeah, twist my words around as usual. Nowhere did I criticize Doflamingo but merely pointed out the fact, that Doflamingo had to bind Sanji up because Sanji kept interrupting him.
Again, matchups matter. Sanji can't expand his body with haki like Luffy can, so he'd have been doomed. Luffy can, thus he's a better matchup for Doflamingo.
No, he didn't say that if you read with context.
Joker got hurt by those so-called Gear 2nd attacks you called weak.
In fact, he's getting hurt by base attacks.
We see him dodge and avoid base attacks from Luffy, and you think Luffy's attacks didn't hurt? No point dodging something that doesn't hurt. If Joker wasn't hurt, he'd simply have let Luffy hit him all he wanted as proof his attacks were useless like Kaido did against Gear 4th.
I don't feel like reading your made-up context. Doflamingo was laughing and kept on fighting, even getting hits in on Luffy.
And why would Doflamingo risk getting hurt in a fight against someone he said he knew better than to underestimate? Someone who managed to cause upset time and time again and even survive the Paramount War?
Did Kaidou let Luffy hit him, or was he unable to do anything until Luffy let up? hmm
If you read with context, you'd see the only reason Joker said Luffy's attacks lacks power is only because Joker changed the orientation of the fight.
You made that up. His point was that while there's speed, there's no power behind them, nothing else.
It's common knowledge that an Eagle Bazooka is superior to a base punch or kick. Luffy made Joker bleed with a base punch and kick, yet an Eagle Bazooka isn't making him bleed despite being a stronger attack? That's like claiming that it makes sense for Luffy to be able to hurt Kaido in his base form, but not with Gear 4th attacks.
And yet it didn't stop Doflamingo, he kept fighting as if he barely felt anything.
Like I said before, OP requires reading between the lines.
When Joker decided to fight in the air, that's when Luffy's attacks began to lack power.
Floating in the air reduces inertia (resistance to movement) which means the power of any attack is greatly reduced. In simple terms, when friction is increased, it's easier to transfer the entirety of a force to another object and when reduced, it's harder.
If someone held paper at all 4 corners, it's easy to transfer a force that damages it (e.g. punching a hole through paper) as opposed to hitting paper that's simply floating... almost no amount of punching power would create a hole in that paper because the inertia is reduced/friction is reduced and the only result is the paper moving without getting damaged as was the case against Joker.
You actually have to be good at reading between the lines though. From what I see, Luffy was on the ground attacking, unless you meant Doflamingo himself was floating and not forcing Luffy to jump and attack. If that was the case, then Doflamingo would have stated that for Luffy's benefit as well as the younger readers'. It's also silly to use real life physics in a fictional manga that breaks a lot of rules of real life. And, DOflamingo floating didn't reduce his power either, which he'd theoretically have less of as there's no support in the war.
While match-ups matter, you're naive or rather, conveniently disregarding that no matter how well 1 person may match up against another character, if the opponent is simply superior to their opponent, then match ups would be irrelevant. Law's ability is a great match-up against ANY opponent. Fact is despite that, if his opponent is simply superior to him, that advantage is easily negated.
There's a limitation to matching up on paper and theoretically, but there's really no limitation to simply being overwhelmingly stronger than your opponent.
There's no evidence Sanji even matched up with Katakuri, what, because he can create fire? Mochi isn't weak against fire, otherwise Luffy would simply have needed Red Hawks to take Katakuri down. Even so, if one wants to convince themselves Sanji was a good match-up for Katakuri when his style of combat is fundamentally the same as Luffy's (closed combat), he's still vastly inferior.
Matchups matter regardless. Enel and LUcci were superior to Luffy, but thanks to his devil fruit Luffy was able to win. Same with Moria - without the rubber to handle taking in so many shadows, Luffy could have lost. Luffy's devil fruit makes him an ideal matchup against almost anyone and shortens the difference in power, so he can take on superior opponents and still win. Neither Sanji nor Zoro has that kind of an advantage, they're still bound by human skin and body, meaning no logia intangibility or whatnot.
And before you twist it again, this is not a criticism of Luffy, it's merely pointing out the fact. Luffy survived Crocodile's dehydration and was restored with a drop of water because he's rubber. Anyone else would have died of dehydration unless they were given more water.
Oh, ironic coming from the guy who kept insisting Luffy would take on and even beat Big Mom despite his difficulty in beating Cracker. Big Mom didn't even feel his Gear 4 punch.
Yeah, twist my words around as usual. Nowhere did I criticize Doflamingo but merely pointed out the fact, that Doflamingo had to bind Sanji up because Sanji kept interrupting him.
Again, matchups matter. Sanji can't expand his body with haki like Luffy can, so he'd have been doomed. Luffy can, thus he's a better matchup for Doflamingo.
And why would Doflamingo risk getting hurt in a fight against someone he said he knew better than to underestimate? Someone who managed to cause upset time and time again and even survive the Paramount War?
You actually have to be good at reading between the lines though. From what I see, Luffy was on the ground attacking, unless you meant Doflamingo himself was floating and not forcing Luffy to jump and attack. If that was the case, then Doflamingo would have stated that for Luffy's benefit as well as the younger readers'. It's also silly to use real life physics in a fictional manga that breaks a lot of rules of real life. And, DOflamingo floating didn't reduce his power either, which he'd theoretically have less of as there's no support in the war.
When Joker fought grounded, every blow was absorbed assuming you're familiar with inertia and transfer of forces. Elementary science bud.
Story also uses real life physics that's just merely exaggerated.
Like I said, you fail to read this story within context and have no understanding of the series whatsoever.
Fujitora's gravity barely had an effect on Sabo who is fire because Fire has very negligible mass wheres Luffy who can't change his mass by transforming into fire was heavily affected by gravity. That's elementary physics bud.
Matchups matter regardless. Enel and LUcci were superior to Luffy, but thanks to his devil fruit Luffy was able to win. Same with Moria - without the rubber to handle taking in so many shadows, Luffy could have lost. Luffy's devil fruit makes him an ideal matchup against almost anyone and shortens the difference in power, so he can take on superior opponents and still win. Neither Sanji nor Zoro has that kind of an advantage, they're still bound by human skin and body, meaning no logia intangibility or whatnot.
And before you twist it again, this is not a criticism of Luffy, it's merely pointing out the fact. Luffy survived Crocodile's dehydration and was restored with a drop of water because he's rubber. Anyone else would have died of dehydration unless they were given more water.
Wrong, match ups don't determine everything. They can increase chances, but against an opponent vastly superior, then it's a loss nonetheless. That much is common sense.
That's why non-DF users can defeat DF useres despite the fact a DF user would always be more advantaged than a non-DF user match-up wise.
Like I said before, OP requires reading between the lines.
When Joker decided to fight in the air, that's when Luffy's attacks began to lack power.
Floating in the air reduces inertia (resistance to movement) which means the power of any attack is greatly reduced. In simple terms, when friction is increased, it's easier to transfer the entirety of a force to another object and when reduced, it's harder.
If someone held paper at all 4 corners, it's easy to transfer a force that damages it (e.g. punching a hole through paper) as opposed to hitting paper that's simply floating... almost no amount of punching power would create a hole in that paper because the inertia is reduced/friction is reduced and the only result is the paper moving without getting damaged as was the case against Joker.
Why do you keep insisting that Doflamingo wasn't getting hurt because he was fighting in the air? This gotta be one of the worst attempts of applying physics to the manga I have ever seen. A Human body is not like a piece of paper. Do you think when a baseball bat hit a ball mid-air there's no strength behind it? Jesus.
Maybe Doflamingo was bluffing. Maybe Doflamingo got better from the Gamma Knife injuries. Maybe Luffy is getting tired at a faster rate than Doflamingo. Maybe it's because Doflamingo did not get hit in the face this time. Maybe Gear 2 attacks have less weight behind them than regular ones.
Any of these sounds better than your explanation of Doflamingo's body acting like a piece of paper.
