Discussion Second Strongest

[kkck]

I don't see the logic here.

Big Mom presence proves that is false, right?

Big mom uses a sword but I don't think she should be characterized as a swordsman in the same way as zoro is. Swordsmanship is but a facet of big mom's skillset... it's an application of her devil fruit to a great extent and she combines it with with other homies and devil fruit powers.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 26, 2019, Original Post Date: Nov 26, 2019 ---

You guys overestimate Zoro way too much

I don't see any reason to assume Zoro could get close to a Yonko commander. Luffy himself had trouble even with Gear 4. Further proof of that is how Kyoshiro could easily dealt with Zoro.

On the Strawhats side we have Luffy, Law, Nekomamushi, Inuarashi, Shutenmaru and Kawamatsu. Drake is at least not an enemy. All which could fight evenly with a Yonko commander. Plus Jinbe and Denjiro are going to show up at some point, right?

Kikunojo is not confirmed to be on the level as Shutenmaru and the others, but supposedly the Scabbards who did not travel to the future got stronger, so she may as well be the real deal.

So we have like 9-10 people much stronger than Zoro.

And what about people who are around the same level as Zoro? We Sanji, Shishilian, I'm guessing Bepo... if Big Mom is coming, then Pekoms may come too?

As far as i know kiku did time travel alongside kinemon and the others. Hence why kinemon's wife didn't recognize her. Kiku is probably strong but by all appearances he doesn't seem to be even as strong as kinemon.

 

[HereNThere]

The guy who wasnt able to tame Enma? ...
Betting against Zoro, in this arc of all arcs...

Oh yeah, I forgot the scene where Hiyori offered Enma to Shutenmaru and he failed miserably...

Seriously though, I'm not "betting" against Zoro. He hasn't done shit yet. Shutenmaru landed a blow against a YC and was making Jack sweat. I'm waiting to actually see something from Zoro before calling him the 2nd strongest.
Luffy trained with Ryou, but y'all wouldn't say he's Yonkou level would you? I know you sure as shit wouldn't say Sanji is YC level with his upgrade.

 

[nik87]

Oh yeah, I forgot the scene where Hiyori offered Enma to Shutenmaru and he failed miserably...

Seriously though, I'm not "betting" against Zoro. He hasn't done shit yet. Shutenmaru landed a blow against a YC and was making Jack sweat. I'm waiting to actually see something from Zoro before calling him the 2nd strongest.
Luffy trained with Ryou, but y'all wouldn't say he's Yonkou level would you? I know you sure as shit wouldn't say Sanji is YC level with his upgrade.

Guess who will be surprised about Zoro between the two of us...

 

[kkck]

Oh yeah, I forgot the scene where Hiyori offered Enma to Shutenmaru and he failed miserably...

Seriously though, I'm not "betting" against Zoro. He hasn't done shit yet. Shutenmaru landed a blow against a YC and was making Jack sweat. I'm waiting to actually see something from Zoro before calling him the 2nd strongest.
Luffy trained with Ryou, but y'all wouldn't say he's Yonkou level would you? I know you sure as shit wouldn't say Sanji is YC level with his upgrade.

It really depends on how much oda wants to rush the story. Take kyoguro for instance. He survived an attack from big mom thanks to his ability to project haki. And... hyoguro is nothing. He is just a weak old man who probably never was too strong to begin with and even then is but a shadow of his former self. Add to that, we know for a fact that haki upgrades make a huge difference in combat. luffy started out well weaker than katakuri and, with some plot, was able to actually match him blow for blow and eventually win. Luffy's armor haki boost is arguably even greater than the one he got against katakuri. Since at a minimum luffy now has substantially improved defense and offense.

Zoro as far as we know has already mastered projecting haki (since its apparently the same skill that is used to extent haki over a blade though he has never evidenced the version that causes internal damage). And now enma is going to take him a step further, whatever it may be. It is true that we lack evidence of what zoro's actual cap is (at the most we know he has breezed through the new world so far) but a haki boost pushing zoro to yonko commander level is at a minimum easily within the realm of possibilities at this point in the story. Add to that, the plot probably requires it....

 

[HereNThere]

Guess who will be surprised about Zoro between the two of us...

Lol , surprised about what? It ain't like you're making some bold prediction. We know he'll win any fight he has. I'm just waiting to see where Zoro will stand after he gets said fight. We already know he's stronger than before, we just don't know how he currently compares to people who actually have on screen feats.

It really depends on how much oda wants to rush the story. Take kyoguro for instance. He survived an attack from big mom thanks to his ability to project haki. And... hyoguro is nothing. He is just a weak old man who probably never was too strong to begin with and even then is but a shadow of his former self. Add to that, we know for a fact that haki upgrades make a huge difference in combat. luffy started out well weaker than katakuri and, with some plot, was able to actually match him blow for blow and eventually win. Luffy's armor haki boost is arguably even greater than the one he got against katakuri. Since at a minimum luffy now has substantially improved defense and offense.

Zoro as far as we know has already mastered projecting haki (since its apparently the same skill that is used to extent haki over a blade though he has never evidenced the version that causes internal damage). And now enma is going to take him a step further, whatever it may be. It is true that we lack evidence of what zoro's actual cap is (at the most we know he has breezed through the new world so far) but a haki boost pushing zoro to yonko commander level is at a minimum easily within the realm of possibilities at this point in the story. Add to that, the plot probably requires it....

Oh for sure, but actual evidence is nice. I remember people thinking Zoro was already YC level before he even got Enma.

Zoro is stronger with Enma and Ryou, obviously, but we just don't know where he is. Pre Enma, he couldn't even get past Kyoshiro, who is most likely Denjiro, so he clearly wasn't on that level yet. He's just now getting the hang of the sword, but that doesn't give us an idea of where his strength lies because, as I said, he hasn't done anything yet.

 

[kkck]

Oh for sure, but actual evidence is nice. I remember people thinking Zoro was already YC level before he even got Enma.

Zoro is stronger with Enma and Ryou, obviously, but we just don't know where he is. Pre Enma, he couldn't even get past Kyoshiro, who is most likely Denjiro, so he clearly wasn't on that level yet. He's just now getting the hang of the sword, but that doesn't give us an idea of where his strength lies because, as I said, he hasn't done anything yet.

Well, he never really struggled in the new world and at least has his ashura left when it comes to powerups. And its not out of the realms of possibility that he has more. Add to that he has had more advanced armor haki than luffy until recently. If there is a strawhat that had a chance against a yonko commander in the strawhats it's zoro. And I don't give even sanji the benefit of doubt on that one even with his suit. Well, maybe a low or mid tier commander, but not a top 3 yonko commander.

 

[HereNThere]

Well, he never really struggled in the new world and at least has his ashura left when it comes to powerups. And its not out of the realms of possibility that he has more. Add to that he has had more advanced armor haki than luffy until recently. If there is a strawhat that had a chance against a yonko commander in the strawhats it's zoro. And I don't give even sanji the benefit of doubt on that one even with his suit. Well, maybe a low or mid tier commander, but not a top 3 yonko commander.

For me, him not struggling doesn't automatically mean he's already around YC level or so. The way I see it, Zoro was either equal to Luffy or a step below, at all times until Whole Cake. There we saw where Luffy was in relation to the big dogs and improve by leaps and bounds by the end.

Zoro hasn't shown any hint of that and no amount of training will make me believe he's there. While he hasn't shown everything he can do, he hasn't gone through anything like Luffy did, so for him to, somehow, be on that level already is a step to far for me.

Again, that's not to say he's weak. I straight up said he's a top 5 combatant in this war and an invaluable asset, I just don't think he's the 2nd strongest at this point. Like Luffy in Whole Cake, I expect him improve during whatever major fight he has in Wano. Then, I'll happily say he's YC or whatever.

Until then, Shutenmaru is my choice still.

 

[Pirate Queen]

For me, him not struggling doesn't automatically mean he's already around YC level or so. The way I see it, Zoro was either equal to Luffy or a step below, at all times until Whole Cake. There we saw where Luffy was in relation to the big dogs and improve by leaps and bounds by the end.

Zoro hasn't shown any hint of that and no amount of training will make me believe he's there. While he hasn't shown everything he can do, he hasn't gone through anything like Luffy did, so for him to, somehow, be on that level already is a step to far for me.

Again, that's not to say he's weak. I straight up said he's a top 5 combatant in this war and an invaluable asset, I just don't think he's the 2nd strongest at this point. Like Luffy in Whole Cake, I expect him improve during whatever major fight he has in Wano. Then, I'll happily say he's YC or whatever.

Until then, Shutenmaru is my choice still.

For the simple fact that Oda plans for OnenPiece to last 5 years... for this to make any semblance of sense Zoro and Sanji have to at least be Yonko Commander 1-2 during the course or after the end of Wano Arc.

This is Shounen where the last couple of arcs we bare witness to powerups beyond what we should expect to be reasonable.

I do agree with you, but we are going to be seeing some very suspicious increases strength during this arc. I'm sure of it

 

[HereNThere]

I do agree with you, but we are going to be seeing some very suspicious increases strength during this arc. I'm sure of it

No doubt. Those 2 plus Jinbe need to be Luffy's right hands and need to be on the level. By the end of Wano, everyone should be on another tier than where they were when the arc started.

Everyone is going to be playing some serious catch up because Luffy has been hoggin all the spotlight since Dressrosa.

I think it'll be somewhat reasonable if the fights are done well enough. If we get Ennis Lobby 2.0, it shouldn't be too bad.

 

[Pirate Queen]

No doubt. Those 2 plus Jinbe need to be Luffy's right hands and need to be on the level. By the end of Wano, everyone should be on another tier than where they were when the arc started.

Everyone is going to be playing some serious catch up because Luffy has been hoggin all the spotlight since Dressrosa.

I think it'll be somewhat reasonable if the fights are done well enough. If we get Ennis Lobby 2.0, it shouldn't be too bad.

Luffy = Yonko
Zoro = YC 1+
Sanji = YC 1 -2
Jinbe = YC 1-2

After Wano

This is a prediction I would have NEVER have come to if I hadn't have read about OP ending in 5 years.

There just isnt enough time for slow growth when it took 20 years to barely get them to Yonko Commander tier 1-4

 

[nik87]

Lol , surprised about what? It ain't like you're making some bold prediction. We know he'll win any fight he has. I'm just waiting to see where Zoro will stand after he gets said fight. We already know he's stronger than before, we just don't know how he currently compares to people who actually have on screen feats.



Oh for sure, but actual evidence is nice. I remember people thinking Zoro was already YC level before he even got Enma.

Zoro is stronger with Enma and Ryou, obviously, but we just don't know where he is. Pre Enma, he couldn't even get past Kyoshiro, who is most likely Denjiro, so he clearly wasn't on that level yet. He's just now getting the hang of the sword, but that doesn't give us an idea of where his strength lies because, as I said, he hasn't done anything yet.

Bold predictions? I think I made plenty of those.
Zoro coming back stronger from training than Luffy after TS, Zoro able to beat Doffy back in Dressrosa, Zoro knowing Ryou since Alabasta and Zoro being able to beat Cracker easily in Wci and possibly Katakuri too.
Defeating King is the bare minimum for me while for you it's something barely imaginable I guess and this is after 5 year left info while I have been saying it since several months if not years.
People sleep on how powerful Zoro is and it is not due to Enma.

 

[HereNThere]

Bold predictions? I think I made plenty of those.
Zoro coming back stronger from training than Luffy after TS, Zoro able to beat Doffy back in Dressrosa, Zoro knowing Ryou since Alabasta and Zoro being able to beat Cracker easily in Wci and possibly Katakuri too.
Defeating King is the bare minimum for me while for you it's something barely imaginable I guess and this is after 5 year left info while I have been saying it since several months if not years.
People sleep on how powerful Zoro is and it is not due to Enma.

Okay and? You can think whatever you want about the boi. I don't agree and I don't think he's the second strongest at the moment.

 

[nik87]

Okay and? You can think whatever you want about the boi. I don't agree and I don't think he's the second strongest at the moment.

I smell an agenda behind your disagreement about how stronk the boi is. Sanji worshipper?

 

[HereNThere]

I smell an agenda behind your disagreement about how stronk the boi is. Sanji worshipper?

No, only opinions. Believe what you want.

 

[HereNThere]

If you dont think Zoro is > or = to Luffy
Nik-kun jumps on you like a jack rabbit in The winter solstice

Yeah, I've picked up on that. I don't venture into these depths often.

Anywho, yeah, Red Scabbards are the MVP's currently.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

Because Nik brings out facts fairly often (unless it's an obvious troll) where as 80% of the stuff you write is headcanon or so far off base people just think your a bad troll.

Case in point... your comparing a severe Grade 1 puncture trauma to getting hit by a tail. How can people not think your trolling?

Honestly, I was definitely disapointed with that scene. Zoro dealt much better with blood loss in East Blue vs Buggy. And this is a manga where whitebeard can keep breathing for hours after his brain was blown off.

That said, Zoro probably just slept it off like Luffy did in Alabasta.

 

[King Moe]

Honestly, I was definitely disapointed with that scene. Zoro dealt much better with blood loss in East Blue vs Buggy. And this is a manga where whitebeard can keep breathing for hours after his brain was blown off.

That said, Zoro probably just slept it off like Luffy did in Alabasta.

Thank You for admitting that it doesn't make him look good. Of course he slept it off, but that's not issue as from being tankless guys around, he easily got stomp by shoulder wound. If Mihawk saw that, he be disappointed. You can't say Zoro is the same after that. Until he get feats on durability and stamina, he got one of the most vulnerability now among the crew.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

Thank You for admitting that it doesn't make him look good. Of course he slept it off, but that's not issue as from being tankless guys around, he easily got stomp by shoulder wound. If Mihawk saw that, he be disappointed. You can't say Zoro is the same after that. Until he get feats on durability and stamina, he got one of the most vulnerability now among the crew.

Not really man, he violently wrenched a scythe from his own shoulder, and kept fighting. The scene seemed rushed and it's less than what I expected from Zoro in the New World sure, but you're reading way too much into it.

 

[King Moe]

Not really man, he violently wrenched a scythe from his own shoulder, and kept fighting. The scene seemed rushed and it's less than what I expected from Zoro in the New World sure, but you're reading way too much into it.

Not really, fainting afterwards in seconds doesn't push you 'kept fighting' especially Gyukimaro wasn't down at all and could easily kill Zoro if he was a bad guy. You don't faint when enemy is around especially the one who stole your swords. It's not reading too deep, Zoro just isn't same as he is before.

 

[jaymizzo]

Bold predictions? I think I made plenty of those.
Zoro coming back stronger from training than Luffy after TS, Zoro able to beat Doffy back in Dressrosa, Zoro knowing Ryou since Alabasta and Zoro being able to beat Cracker easily in Wci and possibly Katakuri too.
Defeating King is the bare minimum for me while for you it's something barely imaginable I guess and this is after 5 year left info while I have been saying it since several months if not years.
People sleep on how powerful Zoro is and it is not due to Enma.

I just had to bite but whaaaaat? Zoro beating Doffy, Cracker and Katakuri. Okay.

Don't want to delve deeper into this hole but regardless of what you believe, nothing in the manga has shown or suggested that Zoro could have done those things.