Canon Base Luffy vs Zoro

[XXGenesis]

Doesn't matter if swordsman fight differently, they are using Haki to cut through hard objects & send out flying slashes....Their haki still isn't superior to someone who can use Internal haki...I don't care what you think because it sounds like headcannon when you guys explain...

Luffy's haki is stronger...My point before even if Zoro knew an advanced application..Luffy still seems to display more raw haki output overall.

 

[nik87]

Let's set few things straight.

Their haki still isn't superior to someone who can use Internal haki...I don't care what you think because it sounds like headcannon when you guys explain...

Why hasnt Rayleigh, who can use that Internal Haki, used it in his fight against Kizaru? Because he has no use for it as swordsman.

Luffy's haki is stronger...My point before even if Zoro knew an advanced application..Luffy still seems to display more raw haki output overall.

Which Haki branch do you refer to specifically? Hardening or Flow?
More raw Haki output? Did you see that Zoro puts out enough Haki to split a mountain and you think Luffy can do even 1% of it?

People really are sleeping on this. Luffy, Luffy, Luffy, it's all people see.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

Doesn't matter if swordsman fight differently, they are using Haki to cut through hard objects & send out flying slashes....Their haki still isn't superior to someone who can use Internal haki...I don't care what you think because it sounds like headcannon when you guys explain...

Luffy's haki is stronger...My point before even if Zoro knew an advanced application..Luffy still seems to display more raw haki output overall.

How are two abilities that achieve the exact same result different in power?

Internal haki can hurt Kaido.

Enma can hurt Kaido.

Both are featless against actual opponents so far.

So how are you coming to the conclusion that either is stronger?

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Luffy knows the level BEYOND ADVANCED COA

Lol there is no beyond tier for coa
This is not super saiyan 2.

Also i think zoro applies different coa compared to luffy....he will be more focused on getting into black sword

 

[Pirate Queen]

Lol there is no beyond tier for coa
This is not super saiyan 2.

Also i think zoro applies different coa compared to luffy....he will be more focused on getting into black sword

Then you have failed to understand the manga. Luffy DID achieve the level above "Flow" type haki... it is 100% stated in the manga. Who are you to just come by and say "nope that's not what it is?"

Just because it puts Luffy in a better light than Zoro, doesnt mean you ignore the facts

"One level BEYOND that power..."

So yes, it is a Super Saiyan 2 if you wanna make that comparison... "IT'S FAR MORE POWERFUL"

 

[nik87]

Then you have failed to understand the manga. Luffy DID achieve the level above "Flow" type haki... it is 100% stated in the manga. Who are you to just come by and say "nope that's not what it is?"

Just because it puts Luffy in a better light than Zoro, doesnt mean you ignore the facts

"One level BEYOND that power..."

So yes, it is a Super Saiyan 2 if you wanna make that comparison... "IT'S FAR MORE POWERFUL"

It's still the same flow haki branch, the only difference is that instead of blasting opponents from outside he blasts them from inside.
Swordsmen dont use blasting, they cut, they have no use for blasting.

Another thing Luffy will never be able to do is cutting fire and explosions, the ability to cut everything. Blasting haki is of no use against fire and explosions.
Inferior combat style.

 

[Pirate Queen]

It's still the same flow haki branch, the only difference is that instead of blasting opponents from outside he blasts them from inside.
Swordsmen dont use blasting, they cut, they have no use for blasting.

Another thing Luffy will never be able to do is cutting fire and explosions, the ability to cut everything. Blasting haki is of no use against fire and explosions.
Inferior combat style.

And "blasting" haki is the same as flow/barrier haki Nik. Its the haki swordsmen uses, Sentomaru uses and thr Admirals used during Marineford to protect against WB. So the flow haki Zoro utilities and the one Luffy learned is a step ABOVE that particular haki.

That being said...

How does the ability to cut fire and explosions help Zoro against Luffy? He doesnt use either of those things... I guess Red Hawk, but it's his fist on fire not just fire itself.

 

[nik87]

And "blasting" haki is the same as flow/barrier haki Nik. Its the haki swordsmen uses, Sentomaru uses and thr Admirals used during Marineford to protect against WB. So the flow haki Zoro utilities and the one Luffy learned is a step ABOVE that particular haki.

That being said...

How does the ability to cut fire and explosions help Zoro against Luffy? He doesnt use either of those things... I guess Red Hawk, but it's his fist on fire not just fire itself.

Both Luffy and Zoro have the external haki flow. Luffy can insert that external haki coating into enemies and "detonate" it. Imagine it like Kuma's Ursus Shock on Oars Jr. The exact same thing, just instead compressed air its condensed Haki and it isnt remote like Ursus Shock but it's melee range.
Swordsmen dont apply the external haki coating that way, their goal is to cut the exterior and they have ranged applications.

Cutting fire and explosions doesnt help against Luffy himself but helps against people who use fire and explosions. Ace/Sabo fire techniques AoE's become useless, Caesar's Gastanets explosions become useless, Kaido's Borobreath becomes useless, BM's Prometheus becomes useless...
The ability to cut everything is indeed very powerful but so far Zoro is probably only able to cut tangible things while fire and explosions and similar things are future techniques to learn.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Both Luffy and Zoro have the external haki flow. Luffy can insert that external haki coating into enemies and "detonate" it.

Which is a level above regular flow and far more powerful

 

[nik87]

Which is a level above regular flow and far more powerful

Well, I would say it is the same flow but more effective since it's detonated from inside the opponent than from the outside.
The only barrier between the outside and internal detonation might be the ability to choose the inside as the epicenter. Probably it isnt possible for everyone who has external flow.
Internal detonation is more powerful than the external one, yes. Swordsmen tho, dont use either of those detonations, perhaps defensively to cover a larger area but offensively we have no indication for it happening.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Well, I would say it is the same flow but more effective since it's detonated from inside the opponent than from the outside.
The only barrier between the outside and internal detonation might be the ability to choose the inside as the epicenter. Probably it isnt possible for everyone who has external flow.
Internal detonation is more powerful than the external one, yes. Swordsmen tho, dont use either of those detonations, perhaps defensively to cover a larger area but offensively we have no indication for it happening.

Would you not consider flying slashes like Zoro's 180 Pound Canon a haki burst? It's basically an explosion of external power.

When know flying slashes aren't compressed air so that leaves a haki burst or.......?

 

[LighteningLord]

If Haki is used then Luffy has an upper hand.
If Luffy won't use haki and is at his base form, Zoro wins high diff.

Both Luffy and Zoro have the external haki flow.

That is actually making me waiver in my decision though. Zoro has one heck of a durability and Luffy is just plain strong.
Let's see, my final opinion:
Base Luffy vs Base Zoro - tie or Luffy wins extreme high diff. But otherwise, it's hard to decide.

 

[Pirate Queen]

If Haki is used then Luffy has an upper hand.
If Luffy won't use haki and is at his base form, Zoro wins high diff.


That is actually making me waiver in my decision though. Zoro has one heck of a durability and Luffy is just plain strong.
Let's see, my final opinion:
Base Luffy vs Base Zoro - tie or Luffy wins extreme high diff. But otherwise, it's hard to decide.

Yeah. I'm saying Zoro extreme diff's Luffy at this stage only because I haven't seen Luffy's internal haki used against a person. If it is as OP as we are being led to believe then nothing stops Luffy of breaking Zoro's nonblack blades and wrecking him.

If Luffy doesnt have it down fully master then I see Zoro barely skating by... but definitely barely.

Zoro hasn't used Ashura in 10+years so to assume it can nullify Future sight completely is just wrong.

 

[nik87]

Would you not consider flying slashes like Zoro's 180 Pound Canon a haki burst? It's basically an explosion of external power.
When know flying slashes aren't compressed air so that leaves a haki burst or.......?

Hard to say, I have been advocating that in my Haki theory but there could be holes in it.
For example, he has Flying Slash before Alabasta back in Arlong park. Brook having flying slash and not being classified as Haki user...

If Haki is used then Luffy has an upper hand.
If Luffy won't use haki and is at his base form, Zoro wins high diff.

That is actually making me waiver in my decision though. Zoro has one heck of a durability and Luffy is just plain strong.
Let's see, my final opinion:
Base Luffy vs Base Zoro - tie or Luffy wins extreme high diff. But otherwise, it's hard to decide.

Luffy without gears beating all out Zoro(not base Zoro)? If he beats him with everything he has got it would be nice because Zoro is a very bad match-up for Luffy and has stronger CoA and is physically stronger.

Asura doesnt nullify Future Sight completely, it still works for defense(not as good as with Katakuri because no logia-like body) but offensively having the same edge over Zoro, like Katakuri had over Luffy doesnt work on someone who has 3 heads and 9 swords to defend with.

 

[jaymizzo]

Hard to say, I have been advocating that in my Haki theory but there could be holes in it.
For example, he has Flying Slash before Alabasta back in Arlong park. Brook having flying slash and not being classified as Haki user...

Luffy without gears beating all out Zoro(not base Zoro)? If he beats him with everything he has got it would be nice because Zoro is a very bad match-up for Luffy and has stronger CoA and is physically stronger.

The manga has never portrayed swordsmen as bad match ups for Luffy.

Zoro is not physically stronger than Luffy and you have absolutely no measurement of Haki strength when it comes to Luffy or Zoro, only skill level, which Luffy is above.

 

[nik87]

The manga has never portrayed swordsmen as bad match ups for Luffy.
Zoro is not physically stronger than Luffy and you have absolutely no measurement of Haki strength when it comes to Luffy or Zoro, only skill level, which Luffy is above.

Luffy who immune to all kinds of things and has advantages over many things is at disadvantage vs swordsmen because they remain as leathal as ever.
His rubber fruits dont help him one bit against swordsmen, unlike they do against other things. If that is not a bad match-up, then what is your definition of bad match-up?

Yes, he is physically stronger. I thought that is obvious? Luffy only can bridge the gap and surpass it thanks to his rubber abilities, without DF his physical power is rather meh. I dont have direct measurement of their Hardening or their flow but we have seen Luffy's Hardening being broken by people who either dont have CoA or have shitty CoA. Zoro's CoA has never failed and is supposed to cut through Kaido. If you think that will happen while having inferior CoA than Luffy then I cant help you.

 

[Shasha23]

The manga has never portrayed swordsmen as bad match ups for Luffy.

It has, Luffy himself has said he is weak to slashing and stabbing, and has acknowledged that he would be in trouble vs swordsman if Zoro didnt become WSS

 

[Pirate Queen]

It has, Luffy himself has said he is weak to slashing and stabbing, and has acknowledged that he would be in trouble vs swordsman if Zoro didnt become WSS

Bruh, when? I need a chapter to see for myself because Luffy never said that.

Wtf hahahahaha

 

[jaymizzo]

Luffy who immune to all kinds of things and has advantages over many things is at disadvantage vs swordsmen because they remain as leathal as ever.
His rubber fruits dont help him one bit against swordsmen, unlike they do against other things. If that is not a bad match-up, then what is your definition of bad match-up?

Yes, he is physically stronger. I thought that is obvious? Luffy only can bridge the gap and surpass it thanks to his rubber abilities, without DF his physical power is rather meh. I dont have direct measurement of their Hardening or their flow but we have seen Luffy's Hardening being broken by people who either dont have CoA or have shitty CoA. Zoro's CoA has never failed and is supposed to cut through Kaido. If you think that will happen while having inferior CoA than Luffy then I cant help you.

Which swordsman has Luffy struggled against? He has fought opponents with bladed weapons and won.

No, Luffys rubber abilities are as strong as they are because Luffy had to train his base body. The Gomu Gomu without much physical training is useless.

Your second paragraph...

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Which swordsman has Luffy struggled against? He has fought opponents with bladed weapons and won.

Mihawk would have cut his arms off, Cracker would have killed him if it wasnt for Nami...

Which nonfodder opponents with swords did he win against?

Bruh, when? I need a chapter to see for myself because Luffy never said that.

Wtf hahahahaha

I believe he is referring to:

quite a stretch but legit