Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
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He is the world's strongest "swordsman", who sits at the top of all "swordsmen". That is only in sword skills, nothing else. Not Haki, not physical strength, not speed, simply swords.
Zoro seems the best swordsman in Wano, does that mean he can do shit to Kaido if Kaidou happened to hold and swing a sword? No. Kaidou still has a lot of other attributes that put him above such weaklings.
Is Zoro a stronger swordsman than Luffy? Yes, would Luffy still wreck Zoro even while holding and swinging a sword? Yes.
Mihawks rivals are those who want to be renowned swordsmen, that is not Shanks' goal.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Heres a fact. Mihawk in Marineford inspired no fear against a single noteworthy opponent, he wanted to test himself against a Yonko.
Akainu, an admiral was brave enough to try and fight WB and managed to last (albeit sheit his pants) Shanks showed absolutely no fear or even the slightest bit of hesitation at taking him on them on (WB and Akainu). He wasnt trying to test himself, he knew he could stop the war. Those are the marks of people who know their strength/superiority, not someone who is trying to see how inferior they are to they're opponent.
Gomu pistol on baby Luffy isnt as powerful as Gomu pistol on adult Luffy just like quakes behind Makino and Blackbeard arent as powerful as they were on Whitebeard.
Your point would've been correct if only you realised that the Gomu Gomu no mi is not like the Tremor, or fire, or ice, or snow, or lightening DFs.
Gomu Gomu on its own does not grant you god-like abilities unlike the aforementioned. It only makes u rubbery.
A child with a fire DF could burn down a whole city while not intending to.
A child with Gura could sink the planet and himself while not intending to.
A child with lightening could electrocute every living thing in his sight without intending to.
Your point would've been correct if only you realised that the Gomu Gomu no mi is not like the Tremor, or fire, or ice, or snow, or lightening DFs.
Gomu Gomu on its own does not grant you god-like abilities unlike the aforementioned. It only makes u rubbery.
A child with a fire DF could burn down a whole city while not intending to.
A child with Gura could sink the planet and himself while not intending to.
A child with lightening could electrocute every living thing in his sight without intending to.
Simply, because Oda give you the title of the strongest. Whether he ever won against Shanks or not, Oda gave Mihawk the title. No need for mental gymnastics but instead accept the information Oda has provided.
Akainu, an admiral was brave enough to try and fight WB and managed to last (albeit sheit his pants) Shanks showed absolutely no fear or even the slightest bit of hesitation at taking him on them on (WB and Akainu). He wasnt trying to test himself, he knew he could stop the war. Those are the marks of people who know their strength/superiority,
On the contrary, Akainu's face - when Shanks stopped him - was priceless. He immediately started behaving well for someone who wanted to murder every single pirate in Marineford.
Good dog Akainu
No offence but is english your secondary language? You always seemed to fail to understand even simple points from my post. I am just curious, not even trying to insult here.
Now i will address your points,
I never said sanji cant bypass steel defence, but he needs diable jambe to do that, base kick sanji is weak, which explains why sanji uses diable jambe a lot. Page 1 is an ancient zoan, he definitely can take heavy attacks
Dont get why you keep bringing the faint thing, killer is a supernova and use a huge scythe, you literally can kill a person with 1 hit of that, and zoro was stabbed deep. Actually it was crazy strong for zoro to survive that. You also forget how zoro still managed to beat killer even after being heavily wounded like that
Vergo ran coz he pursued law, he was winning against sanji. Vergo was not even serious since he didnt use his baton.
The irony owns you sadly. I wasnt talking about zoro, you did, and now you get angry and bash at me for making arguments based from facts. No need to get so worked out for every critics on sanji, just discuss in a good manner like the other users.
I am having tough time understanding yours, but feel free to have the nerve to go after someone's grammar as another troll tactic man. Your not really being an debator anymore here.
Nah, he did it with base kicks as you saw him pushing back Jabra before DJ came to play while Zoro having tough time to trying to hurt Kaku on his end. DJ was just him overkilling his opponent as moment it hits, Jabra got desperate a lot more. No he didn't as he was screaming in pain from Base Kicks. If Sanji went out more, he would be dead instantly.
Killer was nerf and not the same. Why you think Killer was at full power fighting when clearly your not when you been mentally and physically torture and Kidd spoke that about him. Your in denial again on the facts man. Zoro fainted afterwards from the hit with Killer, so it's a tied at best, not him winning especially Gyukimaro was still around and if he was bad guy, he would kill him.
Vergo was task to kill off G5 and Tashigi, he didn't when he couldn't get past Sanji despite him being nerf. It shows that Sanji was someone he couldn't take on as he thought throughout it. He is type of man to finish his missions and to not finish this one because of Sanji said how powerful Sanji was holding his own despite not being %100 yet. You did brought in Zoro in this especially when I said who he face in Wano as final fight and you made it S vs Z thing. You got lay off the insecurities and stop going after everyone who critic Zoro and praise Sanji, your making your fanbase look bad for being that sensitive.
The Gura Gura no Mi would make anyone capable of destroying an island.
Of course, an weakling could easily be taken down by surprise by any bounty hunter with a gun...
I am not talking about how easy is to take out a weakling but about physical strength affecting the effect of DF abilities.
Surely an infant with Gura cant have the same effect like WSM had...
Back this up!
Caesar is as weak as they come yet he's a very capable df user.
Physical strength plays no role in the ability to utilise a DF. Come on! everone knows this.
Sugar is weak af yet her DF may as well be tagged OP.
Sugar's sister is physically weak as well yet she could have won against the future PK by her DF alone.
Gura Gura no mi will remain the most destructive DF regardless of its user stop grabbing at straws.
So? Does that make him a better Mera user?
Physical strength is physical strength. DF powers are DF powers.
They don't work in tandem mate.
A character's combat ability depends on multiple factors of which includes physical strength, DF ability, Haki, intelligence/IQ, waepons, etc.
One may lack in some and have others.
Bottom line - physical strength plays no role in utilising a DF ability.
Nope.
I can tell you that Sabo in his fight with the Marines at Dressrosa created more flames than Ace (with years of experience with the same fruit) did in Marineford.
Again strength means nothing where df is concerned.
What matters is experience with the fruit. Ace flew with Luffy in his flames and made sure his fire didn't hurt Luffy.
Sabo at Dressrosa cannot do the same. He would most likely burn Luffy in the same circumstance due to inexperience with the fruit.
Blackbeard caused more damage than WB in the few seconds he showed-off the Gura. Yet it was his inexperience with the fruit, not physical strength, that led to that.
An inexperienced Gura user could sink the world and themselves along with it if they are not careful of how they use it. This is what almost happened with Blackbeard in Marineford.
Bottom line: Experience is what separates a good DF user from a bad one. Not strength.
Back what up? These are baby steps... Do we really need to back this up? You want to say that a toddler with Gura will tilt the Marineford upside down just like WB did? That toddler will produce same effect as WSM did? If you support that, I dont need to argue that because it is just silly.
Sugar's DF is hax, that's why it belongs to a kid where it can do the least harm... Doesnt help your point.
No, Gura certainly isnt as destructive on Makino as it is on WB whose punches pack more power, which is the usual trigger for the Gura.
So, what you are saying is that Makino with Flame fruit would be capable of the same that WB would be with FLame fruit? Ridiculous.
LOL, you just argued against your point with Sabo having stronger flame ability than Ace, while having no exp with it... What he has more is physical strength. I am not talking about the mastery but about how strong an effect the DF has on a strong individual vs on a weak one.
No, Blackbeard didnt cause more damage, Marineford was already destroyed by WB. His effect is only comparable because physically he not too much behind Whitebeard but he clearly is weaker.
If strength wasnt an issue they would snap their fingers and create tremors powerful enough but instead, they punch/hit as hard as they can.
He is the world's strongest "swordsman", who sits at the top of all "swordsmen". That is only in sword skills, nothing else. Not Haki, not physical strength, not speed, simply swords.
Zoro seems the best swordsman in Wano, does that mean he can do shit to Kaido if Kaidou happened to hold and swing a sword? No. Kaidou still has a lot of other attributes that put him above such weaklings.
Is Zoro a stronger swordsman than Luffy? Yes, would Luffy still wreck Zoro even while holding and swinging a sword? Yes.
Mihawks rivals are those who want to be renowned swordsmen, that is not Shanks' goal.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Heres a fact. Mihawk in Marineford inspired no fear against a single noteworthy opponent, he wanted to test himself against a Yonko.
Akainu, an admiral was brave enough to try and fight WB and managed to last (albeit sheit his pants) Shanks showed absolutely no fear or even the slightest bit of hesitation at taking him on them on (WB and Akainu). He wasnt trying to test himself, he knew he could stop the war. Those are the marks of people who know their strength/superiority, not someone who is trying to see how inferior they are to they're opponent.
As I said, as soon as poster who addressed the meaning of Mihawk's title in Japanese gets back to me I will address your "skill" argument but even without it; What is Zoro improving constantly? His swordsmanship or his PHYSICAL STRENGTH and HAKI?
Not haki??? Sorry to disappoint you but Black Blade says Mihawk's Haki >> Shanks' haki. As I said, mental gymnastics to downplay Mihawk...
We will see what happens when Kaido goes against Zorojuro.
Luffy isnt a swordsman. Luffy would wreck Zoro while holding a sword? He cant wreck him even without sword, lol.
Mihawk's goal is to find a stronger opponent than his rival Shanks and on powerscale he is inferior to Mihawk.
I already addressed your test himself argument, simply wrong, as well as the fear argument. You just ignored and skipped it over...
No, lol. Shanks couldnt have stopped the war... Marines literally had 5 top tiers present while RHP only have 1. It just worked conveniently for the plot to end it like that unless you want to say that RHP can deal with 5 top tiers?
Again, Mihawk was testing WB, not himself.
Your point would've been correct if only you realised that the Gomu Gomu no mi is not like the Tremor, or fire, or ice, or snow, or lightening DFs.
Gomu Gomu on its own does not grant you god-like abilities unlike the aforementioned. It only makes u rubbery. A child with a fire DF could burn down a whole city while not intending to.
A child with Gura could sink the planet and himself while not intending to.
A child with lightening could electrocute every living thing in his sight without intending to.
You do realize you imply only Shanks got stronger and Mihawk didnt? And you imply that title Yonko makes you stronger than the day before when you werent Yonko?
Mihawk's wish that someone surpasses his rival Shanks is still on going, means Shanks is still satisfying his needs, lol.
LOL, you just argued against your point with Sabo having stronger flame ability than Ace, while having no exp with it... What he has more is physical strength. I am not talking about the mastery but about how strong an effect the DF has on a strong individual vs on a weak one.
Nope. I said I can tell you Sabo created more at that moment compared to a dying Ace in Marineford. Sabo was battling an Admiral. He needed to create all the fire he could.
Yet when compared to what Ace did at Banaro island, it's child play.
Ace had greater mastery over the Mera DF, Sabo didn't, hence they are incomparable.
Strength has nothing to do with devil fruits. Experience does. Whitebeard throughout his battle in Marineford only tried to destroy the Marines along with himself when his subordinates where escaping - he had greater mastery of the Gura so he was able to decide what and what not to destroy.
In contrast, Blackbeard nearly sinked himself along with everyone out of inexperience with the fruit, not strength. He couldn't control the fruit enough to not destroy his subordinates along with himself.
Creating more fire, lightening, tremor/quakes, ice, biscuits, mochi, soul, magma, etc depends on stamina not strength. Strength is certainly a non factor when it comes to df.
Awakening, which is an indicator of ultimate mastery in DF powers is also based on experience. In fact, even stamina becomes a non-factor once a character awakens their DF. Hence, they are able to produce endless amount of their DF (Doflamingo, Katakuri, Akainu, Aokiji, etc).
Here:
Mihawk’s title is 世界最強の剣士
Whitebeard's is 世界最強の男
The only difference as you can see is kanji for MAN and SWORSMAN, they share kanji for world's and strongest, nothing about skill Mizzo-chan.
A man like Whitebeard considers Mihawk vs Shanks duel legendary:
He says 伝説に語りつぐものは少ない、お前と鷹の目との決闘の日々も俺の耳にまだ新しい - Very few people become legends, but the days you and Hawk-Eyes dueled are still fresh in my ears.
伝説に語りつぐ - being passed down as legend
決闘 - duels
日々 - days
耳にまだ新しい - still new to my ears
Mihawk when he is about to attack Whitebeard:
Mihawk says 推し量るだけだ。近くに見えるあの男と我々の本当の距離を
推し量る- speculate, measure
近くに見える - seems close
あの男 - that man
我々 - us
本当の距離 - true distance
So yes, Mihawk really was the first person to suspect that WB was weakened.
Credits to DenDen Mushi.
Squardo's stab and Marco's comment confirm Whitebeard has weakened. No mental gymnastics, just pure facts.
Don't confuse physical strength with endurance. People often confuse stamina with endurance but physical strength? That's new.
Caesar is physically weak. Being physically weak does not mean you can't endure pain.
The only reason Caesar will win against Preskip Luffy is his Logia DF. Same as Smoker. They are basically intangible for a non-Haki user so yes Luffy would lose.
Take that away and I don't think he'd last long against pre TS Luffy. Similarly, pre TS Smoker was always lucky to have been a Logia when facing Luffy.
Usopp is physically weak but has shown impressive endurance in situations where other normal humans would've died. Even Nami endures painful damage. Still, it doesn't change the fact that she's physically weak.
On the other hand, Cracker is physically super strong but has terrible endurance. He hates pain.
PHYSICAL STRENGTH and ENDURANCE are 2 very different things mate.
Don't confuse physical strength with endurance. People often confuse stamina with endurance but physical strength? That's new.
Caesar is physically weak. Being physically weak does not mean you can't endure pain.
The only reason Caesar will win against Preskip Luffy is his Logia DF. Same as Smoker. They are basically intangible for a non-Haki user so yes Luffy would lose.
Take that away and I don't think he'd last long against pre TS Luffy. Similarly, pre TS Smoker was always lucky to have been a Logia when facing Luffy.
Usopp is physically weak but has shown impressive endurance in situations where other normal humans would've died. Even Nami endures painful damage. Still, it doesn't change the fact that she's physically weak.
On the other hand, Cracker is physically super strong but has terrible endurance. He hates pain.
PHYSICAL STRENGTH and ENDURANCE are 2 very different things mate.
I never said Smoker was weak. Just that he too would be defeated by pre TS Luffy if he didn't have the intangibility Logia grants.
Moreover he's not superstrong either. He's at best at the level of Vergo who isn't superstrong either. Just strong.
Mihawk’s title is 世界最強の剣士
Whitebeard's is 世界最強の男
The only difference as you can see is kanji for MAN and SWORSMAN, they share kanji for world's and strongest, nothing about skill Mizzo-chan.
Nik-kun, you are actually arguing about an added description.
You are telling me, the best worlds best Online fighter can win a fight against the world's best MMA fighter, simply because they share the word fighter? They share similar descriptions with only one distinction, one is online the other doesn't have that tag.
Worlds strongest man - Worlds best MMA fighter
Worlds strongest swordsman - Worlds best online MMA fighter
There is a reason for the distinction of strongest man (period) and strongest swordsman.
Different skills, different measuring sticks.
How do you argue these things? You actually choose to ignore any other context and focus on the similarity in wording...
A man like Whitebeard considers Mihawk vs Shanks duel legendary:
He says 伝説に語りつぐものは少ない、お前と鷹の目との決闘の日々も俺の耳にまだ新しい - Very few people become legends, but the days you and Hawk-Eyes dueled are still fresh in my ears.
伝説に語りつぐ - being passed down as legend
決闘 - duels
日々 - days
耳にまだ新しい - still new to my ears
Mihawk did not fight Yonko Shanks... They dueled as swordsmen. That is why their battle is legendary. At a point where Shanks hadn't ascended to his heights, he was still a match to Mihawk.
Mihawk when he is about to attack Whitebeard:
Mihawk says 推し量るだけだ。近くに見えるあの男と我々の本当の距離を
推し量る- speculate, measure
近くに見える - seems close
あの男 - that man
我々 - us
本当の距離 - true distance
It still is him questioning his ability (distance in strength) against a weakened WB.
He wanted to measure the distance between him and WB. Who else ever thought to do that? Anyone who actually fought WB had the confidence to actually take the man on, be it hax or extreme endurance. They didn't once, think, oh, let me see how much of a gap there is between me and a dying WB.
So yes, Mihawk really was the first person to suspect that WB was weakened.
But still wanted to test himself against WB. Him noting that WB is weakened is not a feat, him questioning his ability to fight an almost dead man spoke more about his ability.
Oh and yes, Luffy would absolutely wreck Zoro. Same as how WB would absolutely wreck Mihawk even if he was swinging a sword around.
Nik-kun, you are actually arguing about an added description.
You are telling me, the best worlds best Online fighter can win a fight against the world's best MMA fighter, simply because they share the word fighter? They share similar descriptions with only one distinction, one is online the other doesn't have that tag.
Worlds strongest man - Worlds best MMA fighter
Worlds strongest swordsman - Worlds best online MMA fighter
There is a reason for the distinction of strongest man (period) and strongest swordsman.
Different skills, different measuring sticks.
How do you argue these things? You actually choose to ignore any other context and focus on the similarity in wording...
Mihawk did not fight Yonko Shanks... They dueled as swordsmen. That is why their battle is legendary. At a point where Shanks hadn't ascended to his heights, he was still a match to Mihawk.
It still is him questioning his ability (distance in strength) against a weakened WB.
He wanted to measure the distance between him and WB. Who else ever thought to do that? Anyone who actually fought WB had the confidence to actually take the man on, be it hax or extreme endurance. They didn't once, think, oh, let me see how much of a gap there is between me and a dying WB.
So yes, Mihawk really was the first person to suspect that WB was weakened.
But still wanted to test himself against WB. Him noting that WB is weakened is not a feat, him questioning his ability to fight an almost dead man spoke more about his ability.
Oh and yes, Luffy would absolutely wreck Zoro. Same as how WB would absolutely wreck Mihawk even if he was swinging a sword around.
You know that Oda doesnt share your mental gymnastics?
Where did Oda try to belittle Mihawk's title and limited it to this or that? Both strongest man and strongest swordsman share the same kanji for strongest, same meaning. No room to wiggle out and interpret it like the one with most skill, like you do. Oda has never done that.
Mihawk didnt fight Yonko Shanks and Yonko Shanks didnt fight the Mihawk of the same era. What is the difference? Again, you trying to belittle Mihawk...
In case you didnt realize, Shanks is a swordsman. Their battle is legendary because it was that powerful that it shook the Grand Line. When a man like WB deems it worthy of mention and calling it legendary you know what's up. LoL, Shanks ascended and Mihawk didnt... Where does he ascent to from already being WSS? In case you didnt realize, Mihawk still holds the WSS which means Shanks is still weaker than him.
No, lol. Mihawk is the only one who noticed WB has gotten weaker and wanted to test him, not himself. Squardo's stab backs it up, it s WB's power that weakened, not Mihawk's. And he definitely didnt intend to get into a fight to the death with WB, because why would he? To be a good loyal dog of the WG? LoL, all Shichibukais bar Moriah were too smart for that. All of them did the bare minimum just to keep their benefits.
Luffy will never be able to wreck Zoro who can end his whole career in just one clean slice. And WB wouldn't wreck Mihawk, lol.
You know that Oda doesnt share your mental gymnastics?
Where did Oda try to belittle Mihawk's title and limited it to this or that? Both strongest man and strongest swordsman share the same kanji for strongest, same meaning. No room to wiggle out and interpret it like the one with most skill, like you do. Oda has never done that.
Zoro has proven you a thousand times wrong. He trained only his strength. WSS also says strongest, not the skillest. Drop the mental gymnastics Mizzo-chan.
Strength is a huge part of Swordsmanship, as is Haki. You are unable to grasp that and force your headcanon about skill... Oda has never separated strength, haki and skill, whenever WSS came up.
Oda gave only three World's Strongest XXXX titles, two holders of them are monsters. Your logic says the 3rd one is not, lol.
As I said, there is 0 reason for any Shichibukai to be a good loyal dog for the WG. Mihawk only intended to test WB, he literally said it when Doffy asked him if he was actually going to fight...
I never said Smoker was weak. Just that he too would be defeated by pre TS Luffy if he didn't have the intangibility Logia grants.
Moreover he's not superstrong either. He's at best at the level of Vergo who isn't superstrong either. Just strong.
Zoro has proven you a thousand times wrong. He trained only his strength. WSS also says strongest, not the skillest. Drop the mental gymnastics Mizzo-chan.
Strength is a huge part of Swordsmanship, as is Haki. You are unable to grasp that and force your headcanon about skill... Oda has never separated strength, haki and skill, whenever WSS came up.
Worlds strongest man - strongest person unchallenged period
Worlds strongest creature - strongest Zoan period
Worlds strongest swordsman - most skilled swordsman period.
Swordsmanship is about skill, strongest man about physical prowess and combat ability, strongest creature (dont really know how to define this because... Its in the name)
How... how do the definitions fly over your head?
As I said, there is 0 reason for any Shichibukai to be a good loyal dog for the WG. Mihawk only intended to test WB, he literally said it when Doffy asked him if he was actually going to fight...
