Moderator Notice: Henceforth, I will be deleting posts that complain about Weekly Shonen Jump having too many/not enough gag/battle/exorcism/sports/etc series.
These posts are not insightful, and do not meaningfully contribute to this thread. Also, this decision is not up for discussion, so posts discussing this decision will also be deleted.~ Halloween
Jujutsu Kaisen (Cover & LCP)
My Hero Academia
One Piece
Mashle
Black Clover
Sakamoto Days (CP)
Dr. Stone
Magu-chan: God of Destruction (CP)
Build King
Mission: Yozakura Family
Me & Roboco
Ayakashi Triangle (CP)
Shakunetsu no Niraikanai
We Never Learn
Chainsaw Man
Koukousei Kazoku
Undead Unluck
Moriking
Agravity Boys
Honomieru Shounen
Bokura no Ketsumei
Issue #1
Cover & LCP: My Hero Academia
CP: Undead Unluck, Mission: Yozakura Family, The Promised Neverland, Dosanko Gyaru wa Namaramenkoi
GIGA Preview
Collab poster by Kishimoto
Bakugou clear file
TPN is pure miserable to read at this point.
This must be what Souma fans feel like.
Still not sure if I should lament how shit it turns into or just laugh at its shittyness.
As a fan of both series (to the point where both were my favorite manga running in Jump at one point), this is a completely laughable comparison. Food Wars' final arc was a complete betrayal about everything that made its story good. The characters, themes, and general creative spirit were all thrown to the wayside for a completely flanderized and beyond ridiculous plotIine.
On the other hand, while the final arc of TPN has admittedly been kind of rushed to its detriment, the identity and thematic core of the story is still there. While the tone may have changed overtime, it's still delivering on concepts set up from Chapter 1, and while the last 20 chapters or so have had their ups and downs, they haven't quite embarrassed themselves like FW did, and have still pulled off some honestly good and memorable moments.
I really don't like trashing FW like this, I even loved the second to last arc which is kind of divisive among fans, but the sheer scope of its decline isn't something you see often. I don't want to sound dramatic, but comparisons to the final arc of FW should not be made lightly, lol.
Personally I still enjoy Neverland, but I wish it'd stop padding things out. What happened at the end of this chapter doesn't even make sense in the situation, it happened purely to draw out the ending slightly longer. The story's right on the edge of ending, but it keeps giving us minor things that just extend it for one or two more chapters that it doesn't really need. The way it's going, I'm kinda worried it'll pull a random new arc out of nowhere even though everything's (slowly) wrapping up properly.
Food Wars didn't have that same problem, it still felt like it could've kept going if it was better handled. It's problem was the writer got really lazy with the antagonists and kept making them all pointlessly evil despite being a cooking manga that really does not need evil chefs. The series could've went longer, it still had cool places it could've went, but but it ran out of good ideas for characters. Then the chef consultant left and the cool dishes turned weird but that was near the end anyway.
Kaguya was a shitty villain.
Madara was just an OP villain.
Itachi and Pain were by far the best villains in Naruto. Crocodile, Doflamingo and Lucci were the best in OP.
My favorite villains overall have always been Hisoka and Meruem.
Meruem's character arc was something incredible.
Bleach also got its ending announced in the penultimate volume. Soma too, iirc. It's actually fairly common to announce it that way from what I've seen.
It doesn't usually happen for short flops but I'd wager that's because they never know whether the next volume will be the last or not.
Pretty sure Shueisha and WSJ decide which volume is the end, so they would definitely know?
The question to be asked here is - What did WSJ do in RxL's case?
Kaguya was a shitty villain.
Madara was just an OP villain.
Itachi and Pain were by far the best villains in Naruto. Crocodile, Doflamingo and Lucci were the best in OP.
My favorite villains overall have always been Hisoka and Meruem.
Meruem's character arc was something incredible.
Pretty sure Shueisha and WSJ decide which volume is the end, so they would definitely know?
The question to be asked here is - What did WSJ do in RxL's case?
Kaguya was a shitty villain.
Madara was just an OP villain.
Itachi and Pain were by far the best villains in Naruto. Crocodile, Doflamingo and Lucci were the best in OP.
My favorite villains overall have always been Hisoka and Meruem.
Meruem's character arc was something incredible.
Pretty sure Shueisha and WSJ decide which volume is the end, so they would definitely know?
The question to be asked here is - What did WSJ do in RxL's case?
No, I was a Souma fan. The problem with Souma is it actually did have a generally agreed upon drop in quality. About 15 volumes before it ended. Which TPN hasn't had, considering people are certainly braving the viral conditions to still buy copies of it, while Food Wars sales went down considerably even before the end.
Edit: if it's really as miserable as you think, then why are you still reading it?
That's a very flawed argument considering there's such a thing as sunk cost fallacy. Plenty of series that suffer a drop in quality don't actually suffer a drop in sales it's widely agreed that Naruto got worse after the Pain arc but it's sales still remained consistent until the end, Reborn was also never good and despite it's terrible ending sales still remained afloat and yes Bleach at it's worse still sold 1 million units per release and even after it's drop it still had respectable numbers. People aren't just going to easily drop something because other perceive it as bad what usually causes numbers to drop is a lack of new readers coming in and Souma coincided with it's boost period ending regardless of the quality of the material. TPN is still in it's boost period and will more or less continue going into its second season and live action movie this year so I don't see it's sales slowing down anytime soon but the general reception in discourse on JP Twitter in the like is that the series had a drop a quality a while ago with readers generally not liking the general direction it went alongside how Shirai has handled the last arc in particularly which pettered out fast after the initial hype of Norman's return of course they're very much still invested to see the conclusion but the general atmosphere isn't as positive as it once was.
That's a very flawed argument considering there's such a thing as sunk cost fallacy. Plenty of series that suffer a drop in quality don't actually suffer a drop in sales it's widely agreed that Naruto got worse after the Pain arc but it's sales still remained consistent until the end, Reborn was also never good and despite it's terrible ending sales still remained afloat and yes Bleach at it's worse still sold 1 million units per release and even after it's drop it still had respectable numbers. People aren't just going to easily drop something because other perceive it as bad what usually causes numbers to drop is a lack of new readers coming in and Souma coincided with it's boost period ending regardless of the quality of the material. TPN is still in it's boost period and will more or less continue going into its second season and live action movie this year so I don't see it's sales slowing down anytime soon but the general reception in discourse on JP Twitter in the like is that the series had a drop a quality a while ago with readers generally not liking the general direction it went alongside how Shirai has handled the last arc in particularly which pettered out fast after the initial hype of Norman's return of course they're very much still invested to see the conclusion but the general atmosphere isn't as positive as it once was.
I think your comment on how Reborn was "never good" would be heavily disputed by quite a few people. And, if you're really going to bother bringing up sunk cost fallacy to defend a non-existent point, then please, structure your reply instead of having multiple paragraphs as a run on sentence.
Also, the "general reception" of a series on Twitter means about as much as our reception of it here. That's the vocal minority you're talking about, and their opinion is generally ignored for good reason.
Edit: perceptions of quality are also the literal epitome of something being subjective, so your argument against any of those series really has no legs to stand on based on that alone.
What I consider a good villain is someone I can see as a good character first and foremost the problem with most villains in Jump is that they're almost entirely an afterthought and are made almost entirely as an editorial mandate not as characters (Virtually every DB villain is this with no exception) or they're just obstacles for the protagonist to reach his next destination (OP unfortunately fits this trope). Very rarely do you see a villain have motivations that has nothing to do with the protagonist in some capacity which makes the character way more engaging as individuals and to me these are the ones that fit the category;
1) Raoh - Not at all shocked that he isn't brought up here because most people have not read Fist of the North Star in the West but he's a highly celebrated character in Japan to the point where he overshadows the protagonist in terms of notoriety. What makes Raoh great is that his entire arc has nothing to do with Kenshiro and his ambition goes above him as well to the point where you have to wonder why aren't we following his story as oppose to Kenshiro? Luckily we got just that years later but his impact in Jump is very strong and no other villain has yet to match it.
2) Younger Toguro - I'm very much shocked that there isn't enough mentions of him since unlike FotNS people in the West should be very much aware of YYH. It can't be stated how grounded this character feels when you compare him to other villains since his entire story feels that of a deconstruction of a Shounen protagonist in parallel to Yusuke who is the quintessential shounen lead. Toguro is the best villain Togashi has ever written, he's not as interesting as Sensui and his story is fairly simple in comparison to Meruem but it's the most effective.
3) So Dakki - Not only the best female villain but the best female character in Jump period. As bad as that remake was it exposed a lot of people to her and why she's one of the reasons Houshin Engi is an underrated piece in Jump's history being a clear classical type antagonist with depth is not only a rarity but having her not only win by save the MC puts in the ranks of one of the most accomplished characters to ever grace the magazine. Also
4) Light Yagami - Death Note has a lot of flaws but it's overall premise is timeless that it can be done with different characters and in different settings but I doubt Ohba will ever conceive another character as effective as Light just for the amount of people he fooled into believing his schtick that he had to confirm that he was the bad guy. There's not a lot of stories about one's descent into evil let alone for a shounen manga and the fact that Light's own duality is still a topic of discussion as the manga nears it's 20th anniversary says a lot about the character.
5) Yoshikage Kira - From one Kira to another. Admittingly Funny Valentine would have taken this spot since he's the best JoJo villain but because Steel Ball Run spent most of its life in Ultra Jump it feels unfair to include him but character is easily the most interesting character Araki has ever written. Once again the strength in the villain lies if you can see him as a character first and foremost and Kira is pretty much the best thing about Part 4 due to how detached he feels from the rest of the story despite being the main conspirator of it, in fact even if they didn't stop him life in the town would just continue as always. Really it's the low-key stakes of the story that makes him the perfect antagonist for it due to his own warped perception of life in itself.
Don't want to take up too much time so here's some also-rans.
Zabuza - The best Naruto villain and much like Toguro it's his simplicity and grounded character that makes him stand out amongst the worldly threats. It feels like Kishimoto gave his all in the conception of this character because everyone else has never lived up to him in terms of effectiveness.
Arlong - A very underrated antagonist in One Piece who managed to have a lot more depth to him than any other villain in the series. Arlong is the only villain in which his plight makes sense given the environment he grew up in and how it shaped him as a person and given what we saw years later into the story it makes his character all the more effective.
Yami Bakura - If I'm being completely honest this guy has no depth to him and just comes and goes throughout the story but the way how he ties virtually everything in the series to it's final conclusion is something of a miracle given where he started. He pretty much made the Millennium World arc as good as it was due to the amount if build up he contribute with the previous arcs.
Midora - He almost made the cut but I feel like he's just not very exceptional compared to the Top 5 he's just a really well done classic antagonist from a really well done manga and unlike a lot of examples his sympathy feels entirely earned rather than something that's meant to support a theme so his retribution winds up being the most touching moment in the manga as a result.
Isabella - It says a lot that Shirai brought Isabella back given how much of an impact she had on the first arc of the story and how lackluster the people who came after has been but it's amazing how she goes through an entire cycle of development in one arc that takes years for a lot of characters in the same position and it never feels that she becomes weaker as a result more so that the characters need to get up to her level in order to survive. If TPN had ended after it's first arc it would have been seen as generally one of the best manga to be published in Jump but unfortunately that's all but diminished.
Nope. Hell go ahead and try yourself instead of hiding behind other people to do your dirty work just because you don't have a point to stand.
And, if you're really going to bother bringing up sunk cost fallacy to defend a non-existent point, then please, structure your reply instead of having multiple paragraphs as a run on sentence.
Using the telltale sign of when someone has nothing to add or if they don't know the meaning of a given word is to result to grammar Nazism. Your point was flawed when you failed to contracture that sales falling had anything to do with perceived quality and I gave you three big examples if which you fail to give a rebuttal to and just went to straight on attack something irrelevant. Now are you going to make a point or are you going to argue?
Also, the "general reception" of a series on Twitter means about as much as our reception of it here. That's the vocal minority you're talking about, and their opinion is generally ignored for good reason.
Not really. The fact that there's a similar opinion that's being spread across many platforms means there is a general reception. Now I was trying to be fair and not bring up stuff like Amazon reviews but given how you have stoop low enough to use sales as an argument I don't feel bad at all. Even going about saying how any negative opinion is a "vocal minority" is flat out ignorant.
Edit: perceptions of quality are also the literal epitome of something being subjective, so your argument against any of those series really has no legs to stand on based on that alone.
Actually it does. The only way you can say it doesn't is if you flat out ignore discourse outside your little bubble because your logic dictates that audience reception doesn't exist which is laughable in itself.
There's a pretty clear difference between Neverland's and Soma's situation and I don't really get why is it that hard to see, it actually is perfectly reflected in sales: Soma lostall of its popularity as in throwing away its whole fanbase who directly stopped caring about the series at all. Neverland keeps having its whole fanbase because even if we can subjectively discuss whether the quality dropped or whether we like series more or not, series keep having its audience and keeps delivering content and events that same fanbase enjoys. So well, yeah, it's not even remotely close to the mess Soma was.
What I consider a good villain is someone I can see as a good character first and foremost the problem with most villains in Jump is that they're almost entirely an afterthought and are made almost entirely as an editorial mandate not as characters (Virtually every DB villain is this with no exception) or they're just obstacles for the protagonist to reach his next destination (OP unfortunately fits this trope). Very rarely do you see a villain have motivations that has nothing to do with the protagonist in some capacity which makes the character way more engaging as individuals and to me these are the ones that fit the category;
1) So Dakki - Not only the best female villain but the best female character in Jump period. As bad as that remake was it exposed a lot of people to her and why she's one of the reasons Houshin Engi is an underrated piece in Jump's history being a clear classical type antagonist with depth is not only a rarity but having her not only win by save the MC puts in the ranks of one of the most accomplished characters to ever grace the magazine. Also
2) Light Yagami - Death Note has a lot of flaws but it's overall premise is timeless that it can be done with different characters and in different settings but I doubt Ohba will ever conceive another character as effective as Light just for the amount of people he fooled into believing his schtick that he had to confirm that he was the bad guy. There's not a lot of stories about one's descent into evil let alone for a shounen manga and the fact that Light's own duality is still a topic of discussion as the manga nears it's 20th anniversary says a lot about the character.
Don't want to take up too much time so here's some also-rans.
Zabuza - The best Naruto villain and much like Toguro it's his simplicity and grounded character that makes him stand out amongst the worldly threats. It feels like Kishimoto gave his all in the conception of this character because everyone else has never lived up to him in terms of effectiveness.
Isabella - It says a lot that Shirai brought Isabella back given how much of an impact she had on the first arc of the story and how lackluster the people who came after has been but it's amazing how she goes through an entire cycle of development in one arc that takes years for a lot of characters in the same position and it never feels that she becomes weaker as a result more so that the characters need to get up to her level in order to survive. If TPN had ended after it's first arc it would have been seen as generally one of the best manga to be published in Jump but unfortunately that's all but diminished.
Piggyback because writing is hard, and removed the one i don't agree, while adding my own
3. Bunchou from Houshin Engi: The man gets shit done. He is a charismatic villain, lots of followers. His rival/protagonist respects him, and other people fear him. Even Dakki wants to get rid of him
4. Young Piccolo: Everything from his original conceive for a quest of vengeance, to a "redemption" arc and becoming Gohan's father figure. Too bad nowadays he is only good for the villain for his regeneration ability (looking at you Cell and Moro from DBS)
5. Doflamingo from One Piece: Longest build-up villain, and the pay off is well. He is also one of the few character with design you can recognize from silhouette, it's just that memorable
There's a pretty clear difference between Neverland's and Soma's situation and I don't really get why is it that hard to see, it actually is perfectly reflected in sales: Soma lostall of its popularity as in throwing away its whole fanbase who directly stopped caring about the series at all.
No there isn't because you can use that same logic with OP which lost a disproportionate amount of it's sales since 2011 and continues to drop so by that logic you can conclude that it's fans are really not satisfied with the current arc and it's not because it's grace period ended.
Neverland keeps having its whole fanbase because even if we can subjectively discuss whether the quality dropped or whether we like series more or not, series keep having its audience and keeps delivering content and events that same fanbase enjoys.
Because it's still in it's grace period not because people are happy with the events that's transpiring. It's the same shit that's happening with KnY whenever someone speaks ill about not enjoying the current arc people use it's sales as a rebuttal saying it's impossible to have a negative opinion since so many people are buying it.
Holy shit it's not. It's clearly not. Series peaked with Volume 14 and has been declining since then, in a more or less stable way, but selling almost 90.000 copies less.
And even they both together would still mean near to 0. This is like when we use matome or that Twitter JP poll to decide which is good and which is bad. Like, seriously, how the fuck do you even pretend to measure the popularity of a million-worldwide-seller with what, 200 people? What spread opinion? It's literally the smallest sample we could ever get in order to measure anything. Of course, the opinion exists, that's undeniable, but it can even exist in the same proportion there's people who still enjoy the series and reads it. I wish we really stopped stating x is unpopular/popular based on this website of 100 people as if in those 2 websites we all visit were the only thing on the Internet in which opinions are given from a product. Can the proportions vary? Of fucking course they can. Now make a full study in order to state stuff as facts. If not, you're just basing your idea in the circle in which you move, and that keeps being as subjective as any other thing anyone can say. And that's just closing yourself to any other opinion or idea about the product.
Who the fuck said you can use the same logic with a not even 20 volumes series and a +90 volume one. Like, sure, fuck variables. If you're gonna take the comparisons in the discussion to add any other product you feel like adding as in denying the correlation the first two make, then I'm not gonna even lose time. Who's even saying it's a rule? Or something that can be applied to anything? I seriously don't even get the point.
Because it's still in it's grace period not because people are happy with the events that's transpiring. It's the same shit that's happening with KnY whenever someone speaks ill about not enjoying the current arc people use it's sales as a rebuttal saying it's impossible to have a negative opinion since so many people are buying it.
What grace period? Are you even seeing how is it falling in sales despite being fewer days out? And not even in sales, but in discussion itself. Dude this is not KnY, this is a series that's gonna be stuck in the same amount of sales until it ends because there's an amount of readers that are sticking with the story because they enjoy it. It's not that hard.
Holy shit it's not. It's clearly not. Series peaked with Volume 14 and has been declining since then, in a more or less stable way, but selling almost 90.000 copies less.
It is. Backlog is still going on a year after the anime ended and reprints are still going on
It hasn't stopped selling after it's initial peak so it's grace period hasn't subsided.
What you're saying isn't a constant variable in anything because of course the average person is going to consume a product while being ignorant of it's reception in different circles but at that same token you cannot say a sales drop is in relation to that same discourse being because as far as we know the average person doesn't care about Souma's drop in quality and we still consume the product.
Who the fuck said you can use the same logic with a not even 20 volumes series and a +90 volume one. Like, sure, fuck variables.
What grace period? Are you even seeing how is it falling in sales despite being fewer days out? And not even in sales, but in discussion itself. Dude this is not KnY, this is a series that's gonna be stuck in the same amount of sales until it ends because there's an amount of readers that are sticking with the story because they enjoy it. It's not that hard.
Those are not the same amount of people. TPN readership increased last year due to it's boost and the series is still in it's grace period where it's still selling through it's backlog. A series doesn't stop selling after reaching its peak and also that's a bold claim with a second season and movie coming out later this year.
It is. Backlog is still going on a year after the anime ended and reprints are still going on
It hasn't stopped selling after it's initial peak so it's grace period hasn't subsided.
That's not a grace period, that's just selling because of the initial quality of the series. Performance has clearly declined, and denying so is straight up not even looking at numbers.
Because it's not a variable? We're comparing how 2 series which supposedly have the same drop in quality are having totally different results in sales performance. And by concluding, we get that for one people just stopped caring about buying the series at all because of that drop and for the other one we find that people's still loyal to the series. Nobody is stating a variable because this solely depends in the amount of loyalty a readership has, and that's not measurable.
1. Saying sales will increase with side productions is guessing.
2. It's as much as a guess to think series will be still ongoing by the end of the year.
That's not a grace period, that's just selling because of the initial quality of the series. Performance has clearly declined, and denying so is straight up not even looking at numbers.
No series can still rank between the top 10 on the Oricon chart two weeks prior to it's new volume released based on "initial quality".
Because it's not a variable? We're comparing how 2 series which supposedly have the same drop in quality are having totally different results in sales performance. And by concluding, we get that for one people just stopped caring about buying the series at all because of that drop and for the other one we find that people's still loyal to the series. Nobody is stating a variable because this solely depends in the amount of loyalty a readership has, and that's not measurable.
The problem here is that Soma's sales started to drop before the general consensus was that it wasn't good anymore while most of people's criticisms of Neverland started in the midst of it's boost.
1. Saying sales will increase with side productions is guessing.
2. It's as much as a guess to think series will be still ongoing by the end of the year.
One week prior. And why instead of ranks aren't we talking about numbers themselves? Or should we ignore how that same week had basically 0 releases from the biggest weekly magazines and ended up with even more series' backlogs? The fact that series reached that top selling 5k with every volume should already be clear enough.
The problem here is that Soma's sales started to drop before the general consensus was that it wasn't good anymore while most of people's criticisms of Neverland started in the midst of it's boost.
Before general consensus. Based on? Because if we go by the idea of knowing if there were bad opinions or not, we can just go back to a MAL thread about Shokugeki manga in November 2017 (https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1681117) in which people discussed how the ongoing arc was really bad (pacing, characters, Azami, blabla), around chapter 235-240 if I'm not incorrect. And that arc is coincidentally the Promotion Exams arc, just after the Central Arc which was Soma's peak. So, going by the idea of this whole arc being bad paced, and everything you see in the thread, the arc coincidentally starts on Volume 20-21 which is also a pretty clear point in which sales start to lower more and more with each volume?
EDIT: Not even that, but you can just go a bit deeper into Reddit and even see comments of people already talking in a not pretty favorable way about Central Arc and Azami as a character.
Maybe there's more relation than we want to see and there was already a bad opinion being spread. But since this is just using the same rule I earlier said it's pointless, I don't see why should I care about this anymore.
Wow, the gag series really didn't work for me this week.
- Agravity Boys is doing the "Let's keep dragging out this simple misunderstanding for several weeks" thing, which I hate.
- Yozakura and Mitama are going the "haha, look at this person's suffering, so funny" route, which I hate even more.
- Mashle was.. not bothering me, but it wasn't particularly funny either. The writer needs to put in more actual jokes instead of just Mash acting like a fish out of water.
Zipman is a goner and everybody knows it. I just hope we'll be getting a somewhat satisfying reunion between the two bro's at the end.
GotW won't survive either, I'm pretty sure. M+ comments (not representative for the entire population, I know, but still 130 people) go from hopefully positive after the first chapter to mostly negative/desinterested for the last two. The 'new development' wasn't exiting in the least... I'm not even hoping for anything on this one because I don't care about any of the characters.
Now if after Muzan dies something like his eye having a Kanji with "Celestial Moon 6" or some shit like that appears, that ruins the story. Not a poorly executed fight.
Isabella - It says a lot that Shirai brought Isabella back given how much of an impact she had on the first arc of the story and how lackluster the people who came after has been but it's amazing how she goes through an entire cycle of development in one arc that takes years for a lot of characters in the same position and it never feels that she becomes weaker as a result more so that the characters need to get up to her level in order to survive. If TPN had ended after it's first arc it would have been seen as generally one of the best manga to be published in Jump but unfortunately that's all but diminished.
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