Discussion New Roles and New Rules Suggestion Thread

GrySun

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Submissions for new roles need to follow the next format in order to be considered:

I. [Place Holder Name]

II. [Affiliation]

III. [Short Description]

IV. [Long Description/Idea/Premise/Scope]

V. [Priority/RoleType/Interactions/other Specifics]

I. Troublemaker

II.
Town

III. Can once per game make a Day phase lynch be the top 2 voted people instead of regular 1 top voted person. Every player has 2 votes but cannot vote the same player twice.

IV. PMs the host on the night before the day he wishes to use his power on. Host announces at start of day that the 2 top voted players will be lynched.
Everyone gets 2 votes that they can use on 2 individual players. Both can be moved once like usual. Example:
!votekill1 PlayerX
!votekill2 PlayerY
!votelock2
(locks on PlayerY).

Any other format is also fine as long as players specify who they are voting and if it's a new vote or they are changing their first one.

V. Doesn't have a Priority, happens at the end of night after all other actions. Doesn't target another player. Primary role.

Since it happens at the end of a phase, the player can be both blocked and killed to prevent it happening.


I. Psychiatrist

II. Townie

III. The Psychiatrist investigates one person per night phase to see if the player has a Secondary Role. They get a "Your target has a secondary role" if that is the case, and a "Your target does not have a secondary role" if it's not. The Psychiatrist does not find out the allegiance of the target.

IV. It's a counter for scum secondaries without outright revealing them, leaving room for guess work and player reading.

V. Priority 2, Primary Role.

Current roles Approved for testing here

Rules on including those in a game:
  • A host can take any of these roles and test them in their game. Depending on results from testing the role it will either be included into the Role list or need more changes/testing.
  • A host at the very least has to announce in the opening post of the game that new roles are being tested, or alternatively even more specifically reveal the roles that are being tested.
Link to the last update post with the roles that are either close to approval or were not approved: here.
 
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James Rye

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New RoleMafia Infector (Mafia)
The Mafia Infector might choose a player each Night to infect who then can't vote in the following Day Phase, because he gets a cold.


Pretty much Sickly Mafia. Sickly isn‘t an instant-confirmation role anymore with this, making it more fun about explaining who you infected and why, to convince others. I also think it‘s a nice utility role for mafia and far less OP than a Mafia Noble.

Thoughts?
Didn't a similar role of mine got refused years ago because "vote manipulation is too powerful for Mafia"? And now it is okay? If that order still stands you need to make it a TP and then just make it that anyone who got sick by that TP dies like 2 nights later or so and he has to get 3 kills that way or so.

But personally I like the idea of more vote-blocking roles.
My Town Brute, Mafia Brute and such were supposed to be that way after all.
 

GrySun

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Didn't a similar role of mine got refused years ago because "vote manipulation is too powerful for Mafia"? And now it is okay? If that order still stands you need to make it a TP and then just make it that anyone who got sick by that TP dies like 2 nights later or so and he has to get 3 kills that way or so.

But personally I like the idea of more vote-blocking roles.
My Town Brute, Mafia Brute and such were supposed to be that way after all.
Vote manipulation is too powerful for mafia, but this ain‘t vote manipulation imo. There‘s a difference between an out of nowhere anonymous vote near day end to change lynch and from the start one player can‘t vote. Though I‘d certainly call it good for mafia.

Can you link your old suggestion that was similar?
 

Lambu

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New RoleMafia Infector (Mafia)
The Mafia Infector might choose a player each Night to infect who then can't vote in the following Day Phase, because he gets a cold.


Pretty much Sickly Mafia. Sickly isn‘t an instant-confirmation role anymore with this, making it more fun about explaining who you infected and why, to convince others. I also think it‘s a nice utility role for mafia and far less OP than a Mafia Noble.

Thoughts?
Im up for testing it. It would make Sickly unable to confirm himself and doesnt mess with the lynch except in late game, at a point when Town should have means to catch it.
 

Farfalla

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Um... Tbh I'm not sure.
In a situation like the last game, for example (M1 vs M2 vs Townie), the result would be so messy... the role could even work against his own party:

Townie: can vote
M1: cant vote
M2: cannot vote

If both vote for M2, M1 wins.
If they vote for each other, there's the most stupid result ever where they die in the tie and M2 wins lol.


Same would happen if it's a TP instead of M2 or if it's 2 Townies vs 1 Mafia. Then he'd either manage to convince he's a Sickly or his role would backfire, they'd die in a tie and he'd lose.
This last scenario comp is quite common, actually.
 

Copy Panda

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New RoleMafia Infector (Mafia)
The Mafia Infector might choose a player each Night to infect who then can't vote in the following Day Phase, because he gets a cold.


Pretty much Sickly Mafia. Sickly isn‘t an instant-confirmation role anymore with this, making it more fun about explaining who you infected and why, to convince others. I also think it‘s a nice utility role for mafia and far less OP than a Mafia Noble.

Thoughts?
Maybe interesting in a weaker comp together with a gambler? The existence of this role would certainly offset the OPness of sickly, yeah.

A couple of ideas that have been on my mind every now and then are inheritance-type powers (one-time transfer of roles). I had the following few sort of roles in mind;
- A mason recruiter who can recruit, but instead of making new guy a mason, the new guy becomes the recruiter and current recruiter becomes a regular mason. Then new guy turns someone into a recruiter and themselves into a mason, etc.. For balance sake, maybe make it a secondary so that you can also hit non-towns.
- A mafia smartman that can inherit a role of a dead mafia member. For balance sake, maybe make them automatically inherit the first available power (rather than freely picking, though that might be unnecessary). A mafia apprentice could be more interesting, maybe.
- A post mortem role transfer. Here I was thinking Witch, 'if the Witch dies, they make curse a target. The second night, the target becomes a Witch', since we already have on-death kill roles

Other ideas that come to mind;
- Mafia lawyer? If a mafia were to die at night, this member dies instead as a regular townie (a protection role)
- Old Cat Lady that can select three players and is notified everytime a player uses an action. They can only reselect if all three players have used their action. The OCL is only informed by the host that/when they can reselect again (an investigative role)
- [Mafia Politician] whose vote can negate player X's vote (so MP votes player X, player X's vote(lock) isn't counted anymore)
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Ah, we can unstick the top/Faust' post now right? Takes up unnecessary space
 

GrySun

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Also wanna add these here:

Witch (Townie)
The Witch can select a player at the start of the game [I would make it at the start of N1]. If that player dies the enraged Witch can curse any other player who will die the next night. This is a night action and can be blocked, but once the Curse was successfully done the kill of the next night cannot be prevented in any way.

FarfWitch (Townie)
The Witch can select a player every night. If the Witch dies then she curses the last player she selected (or is allowed to pick between all players she targeted so far during night) [picking sounds better for me] who will then die the next night. This Curse kill cannot be prevented in any way.
Evil Witch (Townie)
Once per game, if the Evil Witch becomes the target of a kill at night or day, from any source, it gets aware of it (i.e. notified by the host) and enraged, redirecting the kill to any other player in the game, at her will. That player, then, dies at the end of the following Night Phase.
Names could be changed, especially the Witch one since we have a Witch-role already and are likely not removing it. We can either put in one of the 3 that sounds the most interesting or include them all as they work differently. Iirc a lot of people were already fond of some of these before.

Then some ideas I had:

Mafia Medium (Mafia)
Can select 1 player each night to spiritually bond with until the start of the next night. If one of the two dies the other one dies as well. Upon death the target's role is hidden(???) and told to the Medium's team.

Another more active trap role for mafia other than Bomb. Bonds the 2 players so if the mafia dies the target he wanted to go down with also dies, but if the target dies at night or day so does the Medium.

Mafia Berserker (Mafia)
Cannot choose who he kills, but every kill he does can't be blocked or protected from.

Inspired by Gajeel's idea, but kinda heavy-rng for people that like that. Only way I could think of for a Berserker to work. Basically a permanent Strongman but his target is randomized among all players other than himself. So he could hit a teammate too. Can see it being a useful role in some setups to give to mafia, and some occasions like being the last player alive it could be interesting.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

@Farfalla @digitaldude @Hardy @Copy Panda @Lambu check these last couple of posts.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

- A mason recruiter who can recruit, but instead of making new guy a mason, the new guy becomes the recruiter and current recruiter becomes a regular mason. Then new guy turns someone into a recruiter and themselves into a mason, etc.. For balance sake, maybe make it a secondary so that you can also hit non-towns.
It could be fun, but I'm not sure when I would use this recruiter and when the normal recruiter. They fulfill the same purpose just differently, neither one is stronger or weaker if you do the balance change that he dies and is lost when recruiting the wrong person.
Maybe a secondary role that can be passed on amongst the masons, electing a new person as leader in the group at will?

- A mafia smartman that can inherit a role of a dead mafia member. For balance sake, maybe make them automatically inherit the first available power (rather than freely picking, though that might be unnecessary). A mafia apprentice could be more interesting, maybe.
Apprentice is prolly better, but a Mafia Backup like this could be interesting in some comps.

- A post mortem role transfer. Here I was thinking Witch, 'if the Witch dies, they make curse a target. The second night, the target becomes a Witch', since we already have on-death kill roles
For town or mafia? Could work as a secondary.

- Mafia lawyer? If a mafia were to die at night, this member dies instead as a regular townie (a protection role)
I could see some use in this, though overall a much weaker Mafia Doc version.

- Old Cat Lady that can select three players and is notified everytime a player uses an action. They can only reselect if all three players have used their action. The OCL is only informed by the host that/when they can reselect again (an investigative role)
Afaik that role was rejected for being too strong before, is this a different effect?

- [Mafia Politician] whose vote can negate player X's vote (so MP votes player X, player X's vote(lock) isn't counted anymore)
You mean it's secretly not counted akin SS Illusions? Not a huge fan of that. I'd even change Illusions so their votes count.
 

Hardy

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Kinda hated all of gry's suggestions, lol. They are either too situational or rng dependant and the latter is fucking awful for the game (and if you like rng in mg you should feel bad).

Might as well just make sickly a secondary or remove sickly and have the infected person pass the non voting disease during the night.
 

GrySun

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Kinda hated all of gry's suggestions, lol. They are either too situational or rng dependant and the latter is fucking awful for the game (and if you like rng in mg you should feel bad).

Might as well just make sickly a secondary or remove sickly and have the infected person pass the non voting disease during the night.
The rng one isn’t that great but better than cowboy for mafia in terms of randomness, but yes still rng. What’s the problem with the Medium as a more active Bomb?

What about the Witches? I recall you liked some of them before.
 

Hardy

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This game made me realise I hate witches. The evil one you suggested may be a bit too strong and convoluted.

The latter also applies to the medium and it's too situational imo (also, overall, of little benefit).
 

Copy Panda

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Witch (Townie)
The Witch can select a player at the start of the game [I would make it at the start of N1]. If that player dies the enraged Witch can curse any other player who will die the next night. This is a night action and can be blocked, but once the Curse was successfully done the kill of the next night cannot be prevented in any way.

FarfWitch (Townie)
The Witch can select a player every night. If the Witch dies then she curses the last player she selected (or is allowed to pick between all players she targeted so far during night) [picking sounds better for me] who will then die the next night. This Curse kill cannot be prevented in any way.
Evil Witch (Townie)
Once per game, if the Evil Witch becomes the target of a kill at night or day, from any source, it gets aware of it (i.e. notified by the host) and enraged, redirecting the kill to any other player in the game, at her will. That player, then, dies at the end of the following Night Phase.
Heh I'll add my own bewitching Jutsu then

Witch (Secondary)
The main role of the Witch is negated. Upon death, the Witch can curse another player to become a witch.


Mafia Medium (Mafia)
Can select 1 player each night to spiritually bond with until the start of the next night. If one of the two dies the other one dies as well. Upon death the target's role is hidden(???) and told to the Medium's team.

Another more active trap role for mafia other than Bomb. Bonds the 2 players so if the mafia dies the target he wanted to go down with also dies, but if the target dies at night or day so does the Medium.
Mafia Destiny Bond seems interesting, but if it's not mandatory, the User can simply use this the day they anticipate they're going to get lynched right? Since Mafia Caster is a bomb-type role anyway, maybe make it so that the Medium will die for sure the next day? So basically a self-sacrificing day kill at the end of the following DP.

Mafia Berserker (Mafia)
Cannot choose who he kills, but every kill he does can't be blocked or protected from.

Inspired by Gajeel's idea, but kinda heavy-rng for people that like that. Only way I could think of for a Berserker to work. Basically a permanent Strongman but his target is randomized among all players other than himself. So he could hit a teammate too. Can see it being a useful role in some setups to give to mafia, and some occasions like being the last player alive it could be interesting.
Hum I don't agree with this one either, I think. The upside is too strong, the downside is too detrimental. Let's say you have a mafia with gambler-type players; all strategic consideration you as a host wished for goes out of the window. Since the role exists and 'might as well' be used, the mafia will always pick this Jutsu and nothing in town can prevent the kill from taking place. RNG doesn't balance out in a non-repetitive draw (sure, the odds are in favour of the smaller mafia at first, but once town thins out a bit, or they think they've gotten rid of all protection/blocking role, they can simply switch to another member carrying out the kills). So too strong, mostly. The downside of mafia players dying at most could offer a half-baked alibi for an insane doc claim, but I seriously doubt the gameplay value of 'killing your own member' because 'the numbers balance out'. This argument only works if you play a 100 games with this role, and in every game you accidentally hit your own guy you'll feel bad. It's a deal that's too good to refuse, even for conservative players.

Then there's the RNG bit; since town is larger, we can afford to create spicier roles (BK) because the larger size of Town. Mafia, however, as a smaller, coordinated unit, I don't think would benefit from having more RNG to deal with on top of the usual scurrying around. If implemented, Paranoid Strongman would likely be the strongest killing role after Assassin. This last bit is personal preference or opinion, not necessarily an argument. RNG can be spice inducing, but imo this wouldn't be the way to do it.

Maybe a restriction? The Paranoid Strongman Berserker picks two other players. The full-pen kill RNG's onto one of the three players involved. This sort of thing puts a limit on the usefulness, as well as offering a scope, but permanent strongman is still very powerful. Maybe Mafia Outrage? If the Mafia Berserker carries out two kills, the next night mafia gets the fully RNG'd fullpen kill on top of their regular kill?

It could be fun, but I'm not sure when I would use this recruiter and when the normal recruiter. They fulfill the same purpose just differently, neither one is stronger or weaker if you do the balance change that he dies and is lost when recruiting the wrong person.
Maybe something to go along with the Super Masons? So basically secondary style mason recruiting. Adds a flavour of omo to the one being initiated to the role, rather than feeling that they've been dragged into something troublesome.

Maybe a secondary role that can be passed on amongst the masons, electing a new person as leader in the group at will?
Something along these lines, yes

Apprentice is prolly better, but a Mafia Backup like this could be interesting in some comps.
I was just thinking of how troublesome it would be if the Burden died first.

For town or mafia? Could work as a secondary.
Both, as a secondary perhaps yeah

I could see some use in this, though overall a much weaker Mafia Doc version.
Yeah, for balance sake maybe not a bad thing. Compared to the doc, however, it's a passive role, so no targeting is required. To balance that out, maybe we can make it so it only blocks targeting roles (so it doesn't block PGO or Bomb)

Afaik that role was rejected for being too strong before, is this a different effect?
Yeah, in this version, the OCL picks three people, but can only repick after all three players have used a night action. So if their target doesn't have a night action, they can't repick. Throughout the OCL isn't informed whenever one of the players use their actions. I could use it N1 for instance on three players and find out all three of them moved. But if I pick another batch, along the way two might die and power might not reactivate until the last member turns out to be mafia member finally carrying out a night kill. I forget the exact iterations we cycled through before, but this seems tame enough, I think.

You mean it's secretly not counted akin SS Illusions? Not a huge fan of that. I'd even change Illusions so their votes count.
I agree the non-voting property is particularly troublesome, I think that should be nerfed as well. But for a mafia member, scheming the background, I think it's alright. It's not like the player is permanently affected, just for the duration of the mafia's vote. The player here has to consider whose vote they need to negate and whether or not they can get away with that. In terms of having to explain yourself, I think it's quite interesting. If this player makes it to the late-game, they have tie-breaking power as well.
 

Lambu

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Mafia Medium (Mafia)
Can select 1 player each night to spiritually bond with until the start of the next night. If one of the two dies the other one dies as well. Upon death the target's role is hidden(???) and told to the Medium's team.

Another more active trap role for mafia other than Bomb. Bonds the 2 players so if the mafia dies the target he wanted to go down with also dies, but if the target dies at night or day so does the Medium.

Mafia Berserker (Mafia)
Cannot choose who he kills, but every kill he does can't be blocked or protected from.

Inspired by Gajeel's idea, but kinda heavy-rng for people that like that. Only way I could think of for a Berserker to work. Basically a permanent Strongman but his target is randomized among all players other than himself. So he could hit a teammate too. Can see it being a useful role in some setups to give to mafia, and some occasions like being the last player alive it could be interesting.
I dislike both, the first one is op asf and would never use it. The berserker is basically an RNG strongman, since I hate it when RNG decides the outcome of games instead of gameplay I would hardly ever use its concept aswell.

As for the Witches, I only like the FarfWitch cause it sounds fun and would be a nice variant to VT.
 

Farfalla

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I think we should simplify this role validation process overall... As in, people's perception might change overtime so we can do validations of the same role multiple times, but imo every time it should be like: favorable vote and why; favorable with adjustments and which ones are those, reproachful vote and why. Cause the whole debate of multiple things, over and over, gets so tiring :/
 

GrySun

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I think we should simplify this role validation process overall... As in, people's perception might change overtime so we can do validations of the same role multiple times, but imo every time it should be like: favorable vote and why; favorable with adjustments and which ones are those, reproachful vote and why. Cause the whole debate of multiple things, over and over, gets so tiring :/
Go ahead farf o/
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

This game made me realise I hate witches. The evil one you suggested may be a bit too strong and convoluted.

The latter also applies to the medium and it's too situational imo (also, overall, of little benefit).
You can rename them to something else :catshrug It‘s about the effects, more death-related town roles.

Situational? I think it‘s even too OP, but we do have Assassin so if it‘s used well it shouldn‘t be a problem. Would you call Mafia Bomb situational?
 

Farfalla

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Kay gonna get groceries - small homage - then I'll give my votes and reasoning and pin a post with vote counts for each role currently being evaluated.
 

Copy Panda

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Are we gonna add phases to the game? What about rewriting/rewording/action coding?
 

Copy Panda

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Hum, so like 'Start' and 'End' of phases being added as brief moment in the game for role timing sake (so some roles activating at the start of the day, some during the day, some at the end, some during the night, etc.)
 

GrySun

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Hum, so like 'Start' and 'End' of phases being added as brief moment in the game for role timing sake (so some roles activating at the start of the day, some during the day, some at the end, some during the night, etc.)
Think we can do without, as the one confusion we had with Jesus was solved with a big majority. But something could be included in the text of a rewrite that explains more when a game ends, or when a team has won. Clearer win conditions.
 

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Since there is activity here, let me remind you some of my thoughts on the threesome role. Basically, in the last panda game the role felt more of a hinderance than help to the lovers, especially when it dies early. In such a scenario, i.e. when the threesome dies before joining the lovers, I think having the threesome give some form of protection to the lovers is a good idea. The effectiveness of the protection depends on their correct guesses of who the lovers might be.
Regarding Lovers, why not have the threesome candidate have the following additional effect:

"If the threesome has guessed one of the lovers (but not both), then when he dies, his spirit stays and keeps them from harm. Automatically protects a lover from one kill (except day lynches). This is a once per game effect. In the case the threesome has not guessed any of the lovers and died, then the protection effect has a only a 50% success rate."
Moreover, please take a look at the following variation of the bodyguard role.


New RoleSamurai (townie):
The samurai may pick a person he wants to protect at night. In exchange for his life, any kill action towards this person fails during that night (+the following day? up to debate), and the attacker(s) become unskilled.


I think it's fun to have something affecting the skillfullness of a killer. Maybe we could also add to it a close like "the host needs to inform the players of the presence of a samurai", in order to avoid fake claims and to make mafia party or TP plays more interesting.

I have also suggested the Mercenary TP role, but I may need to adjust it further.

@GrySun , @Farfalla ,@Lambu , @Copy Panda , @James Rye
 
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