One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[hokageji]

How do you see the fight between them going?

Jinbei will win 8/10.......

That'll change atleast to 5/10 very soon and 7/10 in Zoro's favor.

My inclination is that zoro right now is likely stronger. Jinbe is powerful but within the context of the new world and yonko crews he is beneath top 3 yonko commanders (as in beneath sweet commanders, calamities....) or admirals. Zoro has never been pushed in the new world (to the point where he has won his fights comfortably without azura) and now is getting a haki boost... Which if only half as good as what luffy has gotten recently is somewhat insane. So luffy is without a doubt well stronger than jinbe... As in, if he uses the advanced forms of haki he has available then he shouldn't even need gear 4 to win. Zoro historically has not lagged that much behind luffy and is getting his own haki boost... I'd guess that either zoro is stronger or perhaps at worst around jinbe.

Alright, but i disagree...
Jinbei is older, much more experienced and has fought yonko commander level pirates before.... He fought Ace to a draw, although perhaps he had an advantage with his techniques. He is also considered as the strongest fishmen karate user, as per Hack's comments in Dressrosa. Experience is everything, and we've seen in OP that 40ish age or above is showing peak strengths...
THe title of shichibukai is also important to keep in mind. WG only gives these titles to the strongest of the pirates, that has to count for something.

Considering how Jinbei was in Mama's crew and wasn't a top commander, its fair to rank him beneath the 3 sweet commanders, even admirals for that matter. but that could be skewed for family preference too.... I would say he'd be the strongest after them.
And no-one's debating that Luffy is stronger than Jinbei, that's a given, although i think he'd need gear 4 surely.

Historically, Zoro hasn't lagged but since time skip, all the strawhats have, albeit Zoro less than others. Anyways, this is a trivial discussion because i am basing only on accounts that've happened and i expect that to change in the near future, which would make Zoro higher.

 

[thedude]

They are still equal after the time-skip.

It does not seem for me that balance among the Straw Hats did not change after the time-skip, except for Luffy who learned Gear 4. Everyone else got stronger in the same proportion. But this alone is not proof.

But these pages show them as equals:

Spoiler

The problem being, of course, how Zoro and Sanji have not been given many fights after the time-skip. But the lack of evidence shouldn't serve as evidence that they are no longer equals.

Yes, that's how I think Oda has clearly written it. Also like I mentioned in another thread, there is the scene when the SH's arrive at Zou and see the destruction, and Zoro remarks that the others will be fine because Swirly Brow will protect them. Not only has Oda not shown that one is any level above the other, he makes them say things like that showing that they view the other as strong enough to protect the others.

Oh, and Sanji now has the higher bounty, which he refrenced in regards to Zoro. And when Luffy said Sanji is worth X number of men, Zoro gets pissy and says "well, I'm worth XX". They are equals, and view each other as direct rivals (but in a friendly way). We've been given nothing to show this has changed.

Hopefully they both finally get good fights. All of Sanji's have been aborted, other than in Fishman Island, which was a joke of a fight anyway. Zoro at least got to finish a fight with Pika.

 

[thedude]

I think Jinbe is not beneath Yonko commanders, I think he is around YC2, depends on each commander as well since match-up can be decisive point but Zoro is still above Jinbe. I think he was already around YC1 the moment he returned from training and if he beats King without new power-ups it will be proven that he was that level.
If the power-up is cutting fire, I think that changes nothing since such PU is not a universal one and only useful against fire users.
Luffy's advanced CoA affects the insides if he cannot deal with the outside shell and Jinbe has basically the same ability in form of Fishmen Karate and he doesnt even have to be anywhere close to target as Luffy needs to be. It is most likely significantly weaker but it is similar.

Luffy's advanced CoA is the same as fishman karate the same way a black haki blade is just a slightly more advanced for of CoA on a weapon.

That's just a way to belittle the power up, yet the guy who has similar haki and is trying to train Luffy was shocked at his more powerful version of it. This isn't a "minor" powerup.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

You realize those two coverpages were: "Requests"?

They were rivals and equal for a long time i agree, but the times have changed and thats mostly because of the timeskip. Zoros was only for training, Sanji learned support cookingskills with the okamarecipes.

 

[nik87]

Jinbei will win 8/10.......
That'll change atleast to 5/10 very soon and 7/10 in Zoro's favor.

I meant it like fight simulation.
Is Jinbe gonna be unaffected by Zoro's slashes or what is the reason he wins?

 

[thedude]

Jinbei will win 8/10.......

That'll change atleast to 5/10 very soon and 7/10 in Zoro's favor.


Alright, but i disagree...
Jinbei is older, much more experienced and has fought yonko commander level pirates before.... He fought Ace to a draw, although perhaps he had an advantage with his techniques. He is also considered as the strongest fishmen karate user, as per Hack's comments in Dressrosa. Experience is everything, and we've seen in OP that 40ish age or above is showing peak strengths...
THe title of shichibukai is also important to keep in mind. WG only gives these titles to the strongest of the pirates, that has to count for something.

Considering how Jinbei was in Mama's crew and wasn't a top commander, its fair to rank him beneath the 3 sweet commanders, even admirals for that matter. but that could be skewed for family preference too.... I would say he'd be the strongest after them.
And no-one's debating that Luffy is stronger than Jinbei, that's a given, although i think he'd need gear 4 surely.

Historically, Zoro hasn't lagged but since time skip, all the strawhats have, albeit Zoro less than others. Anyways, this is a trivial discussion because i am basing only on accounts that've happened and i expect that to change in the near future, which would make Zoro higher.

Was Jinbe in BM's crew, or just affiliated? And does she give Sweet Commander rankings to anyone other than her children? I don't think that says anything until we know all.

(and Schibukai aren't necessarily the strongest of the pirates...Buggy, lol.)

 

[nik87]

Luffy's advanced CoA is the same as fishman karate the same way a black haki blade is just a slightly more advanced for of CoA on a weapon.
That's just a way to belittle the power up, yet the guy who has similar haki and is trying to train Luffy was shocked at his more powerful version of it. This isn't a "minor" powerup.

It is the same in a way that Jinbe will still hurt you even if your exterior is hard because you are still made of water. No need to belittle Jinbe.

 

[hokageji]

Well "Shichibukai level" ranges from Buggy to Mihawk so that by default should never be a tier we use to rank strong characters lol

Buggy is an exception but considering how shichibukai are considered as one of the one of the 3 great powers, that ranking must mean something....

And Buggy is an exception as solo, but as the captain of impel down escapees, he was pretty strong, until the giant pirates disbanded from him atleast.

As for Marine ford battle neither WB used Haki clad attacks on any admiral nor any Schibukai. WB only wanted to save Ace. If WB used Haki attack in chapter 567 it would be aokiji as the 1st victim from marines. Marineford was a plot no justsu so Luffy progresses. Neither we saw WB full power nor admirals full potential

Actually, WB did use haki... the spherical thing around his blade was similar to what we saw Katakuri use... just that the blackening wasn't a pre time skip thing... but other than that, WB wasn't full power...

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 30, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 30, 2020 ---

You realize those two coverpages were: "Requests"?

They were rivals and equal for a long time i agree, but the times have changed and thats mostly because of the timeskip. Zoros was only for training, Sanji learned support cookingskills with the okamarecipes.

Those were requests, yes but i think Oda wants to, or wanted to maintain them as rivals throughout.... But sadly yes, post timeskip things have changed.

 

[HereNThere]

They were rivals and equal for a long time i agree, but the times have changed and thats mostly because of the timeskip. Zoros was only for training, Sanji learned support cookingskills with the okamarecipes.

I mean, Sanji had to fight 99 Newkempo Masters to get the recipes in the first place. Plus, according to him and per Iva's stipulations, he ran the entirety of those 2 years. Add in the fact that he has Haki, which strengthens and blooms in battle, and that seems like training to me.

 

[thedude]

You realize those two coverpages were: "Requests"?

They were rivals and equal for a long time i agree, but the times have changed and thats mostly because of the timeskip. Zoros was only for training, Sanji learned support cookingskills with the okamarecipes.

And how did Sanji learn those...was it by...defeating Okama Kempo experts perhaps?

Come on guys...we all have the pages...

(re-reading that, the 99 recipes are part of a secret art..."bride training" lol. Perhaps we'll finally get to see this secret art, but I'm sure with a new name).

 

[kkck]

I think Jinbe is not beneath Yonko commanders, I think he is around YC2, depends on each commander as well since match-up can be decisive point but Zoro is still above Jinbe. I think he was already around YC1 the moment he returned from training and if he beats King without new power-ups it will be proven that he was that level.
If the power-up is cutting fire, I think that changes nothing since such PU is not a universal one and only useful against fire users.
Luffy's advanced CoA affects the insides if he cannot deal with the outside shell and Jinbe has basically the same ability in form of Fishmen Karate and he doesnt even have to be anywhere close to target as Luffy needs to be. It is most likely significantly weaker but it is similar.

As in, jinbe being on the same tier as god dammed jozu, smoothie, queen.... At a minimum jozu was someone that could go toe to toe with aokiji at least for a while (until he got distracted and aokiji got the upper hand). Presumably other top yonko commanders can do about the same. My idea of jinbe was more that he was closer to oven's tier than to the sweet commanders (except snack until we know why or how he lost to uroge).

I doubt the powerup will be cutting fire. Given what we saw with zoro and the cliff, the most likely scenario is that the boost will at least be a substantial increase in general cutting capacity... As in, a straight up increase in firepower. And whatever other benefit better haki provides to zoro.

 

[nik87]

As in, jinbe being on the same tier as god dammed jozu, smoothie, queen.... At a minimum jozu was someone that could go toe to toe with aokiji at least for a while (until he got distracted and aokiji got the upper hand). Presumably other top yonko commanders can do about the same. My idea of jinbe was more that he was closer to oven's tier than to the sweet commanders (except snack until we know why or how he lost to uroge).

I doubt the powerup will be cutting fire. Given what we saw with zoro and the cliff, the most likely scenario is that the boost will at least be a substantial increase in general cutting capacity... As in, a straight up increase in firepower. And whatever other benefit better haki provides to zoro.

Well, I do think he could contend with those perhaps, Jozu may be a bad match-up but rest should be close to Jinbe's overall stats.
He is a brawler with an effective striking technique and he is quite a tanky individual, one of the best.
If he has a lot of water at disposal his power increases greatly.

Zoro's cutting capacity is already enough to go through the entire mountain so there is no point in increasing it anymore unless he will need to cut the Red Line itself... King's ability to spread fire may be the thing which prevents Zoro from playing his strengths so he will have to overcome it since it will most likely push him on defensive and evasive maneuvers. There is also Kaido's fire breath and he expressed the interest in cutting fire back in PH.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

I think fighting vs. Mihawk is much more training then against some Okamas. This isnt Last of Us 2.

 

[thedude]

I think fighting vs. Mihawk is much more training then against some Okamas. This isnt Last of Us 2.

We've seen that the Okama's are strong. Bon Clay was strong. Iva is very strong. These are masters at kempo and Sanji spent his time in, what was for him, life or death fights. Iva's strength was on Kumas level, so not sure how getting that kind of training is low level...

 

[Sachsenhesse]

I dont think that the 99 Kempomasters are that strong. Even if they are on Benthams Level, they are still weaker then pretimeskip Sanji. Iva and Inazuma(scissorsguy?) are the highskill examples.

Must have been really hard training, even his lips and eyes are swollen.

 

[kkck]

Alright, but i disagree...
Jinbei is older, much more experienced and has fought yonko commander level pirates before.... He fought Ace to a draw, although perhaps he had an advantage with his techniques. He is also considered as the strongest fishmen karate user, as per Hack's comments in Dressrosa. Experience is everything, and we've seen in OP that 40ish age or above is showing peak strengths...
THe title of shichibukai is also important to keep in mind. WG only gives these titles to the strongest of the pirates, that has to count for something.

Considering how Jinbei was in Mama's crew and wasn't a top commander, its fair to rank him beneath the 3 sweet commanders, even admirals for that matter. but that could be skewed for family preference too.... I would say he'd be the strongest after them.
And no-one's debating that Luffy is stronger than Jinbei, that's a given, although i think he'd need gear 4 surely.

Historically, Zoro hasn't lagged but since time skip, all the strawhats have, albeit Zoro less than others. Anyways, this is a trivial discussion because i am basing only on accounts that've happened and i expect that to change in the near future, which would make Zoro higher.

In my post I was referring to top 3 yonko commanders.... Jinbe did fight ace to a draw though I would argue that that is a point against jinbe. Ace seemed to lack any halfway decent haki and I'd even argue he died due to that. he could fight back against aokiji during the war though I would argue that is mostly because of his fruit than because of his skill. And sure, pirates apparently are at their peak past their 40s... But that was already the case with jinbe when he fought ace. Some 2 years before the story started.

Sure, but there is substantial difference in strength between shichibukai. Of the original shichibukai within the series you have crocodile, moria, jinbe, mihawk, hancock, kuma, doflamingo.... Jinbe is not even close to the strongest in that group, which includes weak-ish people like crocodile and moria, and he is supposed to be a match to a top 3 yonko commander? I don't buy that. At least how I'd rank them in terms of strength is mihawk-hancock-doflamingo-kuma/jinbe-crocodile-moria... As in, maybe jinbe was probably the 5th strongest, optimistically the 4th...

I don't think there is any circumstance under which jinbe could ever be a sweet commander. Mostly because that requires a blood tie to big mom... Though regardless of that, jinbe is simply not there strength wise (though he is a hard counter to cracker's crackers so he might have a chance here). I'd maintain that jinbe is probably around oven/daifuku tier rather than sweet commander tier...

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 30, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 30, 2020 ---

Well, I do think he could contend with those perhaps, Jozu may be a bad match-up but rest should be close to Jinbe's overall stats.
He is a brawler with an effective striking technique and he is quite a tanky individual, one of the best.
If he has a lot of water at disposal his power increases greatly.

Zoro's cutting capacity is already enough to go through the entire mountain so there is no point in increasing it anymore unless he will need to cut the Red Line itself... King's ability to spread fire may be the thing which prevents Zoro from playing his strengths so he will have to overcome it since it will most likely push him on defensive and evasive maneuvers. There is also Kaido's fire breath and he expressed the interest in cutting fire back in PH.

Why just jozu? Marco's fire is not real fire so he shouldn't be impeded by fishman karate anymore than any random person... Same with smoothie. All these guys are actually brawlers (with some ambiguity regarding smoothie).

But... this is basically an increase in offensive power for zoro, at a minimum. That's not only relevant to cutting distance but also to zoro's ability to cut through other people's haki.

 

[HereNThere]

I think fighting vs. Mihawk is much more training then against some Okamas. This isnt Last of Us 2.

Okay? It doesn't change the fact that it was training for Sanji and made him significantly stronger for the journey, which was the entire point.

I dont think that the 99 Kempomasters are that strong. Even if they are on Benthams Level, they are still weaker then pretimeskip Sanji. Iva and Inazuma(scissorsguy?) are the highskill examples.

Must have been really hard training, even his lips and eyes are swollen.

So just feel like trolling today eh? I get it. Times are tough.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

So just feel like trolling today eh? I get it. Times are tough.

Eh. 50:50. Zoros timeskip was always handled as a serious power up, Sanjis was made a comic relief.

 

[HereNThere]

Eh. 50:50. Zoros timeskip was always handled as a serious power up, Sanjis was made a comic relief.

It's most definitely unfortunate, no doubt.

I tend to go with the more generous read of Sanji going through his "personal hell" for Luffy's sake. But it certainly was played up for jokes, despite the results working out in Sanji's favor.

 

[King Moe]

Only Luffy and Zoro have ever said dont worry because so and so is with them, or dont worry because so and so are capable.
Sanji would never say it because he thinks Zoro is stupid while Zoro does say it but he then throws shade at the fact Sanji is a perve and incompetent.
He as telling the marines Tashigi would be fine since Zoro wouldn't hurt her, not that he would protect her with the G5 saying they thought Zoro was the type to cut first and ask questions after.
Zoro has always been above Sanji, just like Luffy is always above Zoro, i cant help you if you cant even see how the manga has portrayed them!



Oda wasn't hinting at them being equal, he was hinting at them being rival to one another, rivalry does not equate to being equal!




Of cause Jinbe is stronger since he has shown better feats, but yes after this war Zoro should be stronger than him.

IMO after Wana ranking should be like this :

Luffy - 100
Zoro - 90
Jinbe - 85
Sanji - 80(RS) / 50(base)

After BB pirates :

Luffy - 100
Zoro - 95
Sanji - 90(RS) / 60 (base)
Jinbe - 88

Actually more like this right now:

Luffy - 100
Sanji - 90
Jimbei - 85
Zoro - 50

And Later

Luffy - 150
Sanji - 100
Jimbei - 90
Zoro - 60

That how it is and looking to be. Can't see Zoro topping Jimbei if he got taken out by nerf pleasure, Kamazou easily. Vagabond Drill and Zoro is out.