Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.
So, with Shanks being overall stronger that means he is overall harder to beat and requires more effort.
I am telling you, Zoro is targetting the wrong guy if your assumptions are true.
Akainu in the role of the MAIN CHARACTER.
Kaido isnt in the role of the main character.
Oda's statement is clear, both Akainu and Kaido are mentioned and he clearly placed Kaido as nr1.
I think this is something that we have exhausted a lot, what it actually means to be the strongest individual among swordsmen and what it means to be a swordsman as well. Swordsmanship is about skill, so its correct to assume that Mihawk is the most skilled swordsman, that shouldn't mean he is the strongest individual who carries a sword (there is more than just a sword) as that contradicts the likes of Roger, Rayleigh, Big mom etc
What you find correct to assume, I, however, find it "improbable" for two reasons.
The first reason is that if two people fight only with swords, and one is more skilled than the other, then that person is stronger. Period.
The second reason is that it'd be impossible to decide "who is more skilled" between two pure swordsmen if not by who's stronger between the two.
According to me, it doesn't contradict anything. Rayleigh is a swordsman and Roger, as far as we know, is as well. Of course, Roger doesn't count because he's dead and Rayleigh is well past his prime despite his still superb strength (Mihawk is the WSS, not the "WSS of all time"). The only reason you may find contradictions is because you've told yourself "these individuals must be stronger, so if there's any reasoning why Mihawk should be stronger than them then it contradicts what I already know think".
Big Mom and the likes area a different matter. I have gone over that in particular many times today.
There are multiple tellings of Mihawk being stronger than him. The title is one of them, but not he only one. But I'm not going to rewrite the whole thing for every person quoting my latest post without reading the previous, since it would possibly the third or fourth time today.
There is a lot going on with those titles, WB was WSM with people like Garp, Sengoku and Roger running around.
Kaido is WSC yet Big Mom who doesn't have the "strongest" title can go on par with him and gives absolutely no shits for his threats.
I have given many reasons today for what I think of Mihawk and the title is one of them. I have also said many times (even in the post you're quoting) that I'm only speculating about Mihawk, and not about WB or Kaido and whatever titles they might have.
Perhaps you're tired of "Arguing against swordbois" or whatever, but if you're going to debate this with my, I pray that you read my first few posts on the topic today. If you're willing to argue that Mihawk is not the strongest swordsman despite the manga telling us that he is, please tell me where is it implied that he isn't without talking about WB or Kaido, who are a different matter topic, or at least argue against my points in this conversation and not just against a single sentence in a single post. You might find my points interesting or ridiculous, but at least you'll know what they are and I'm open to your critizism of them.
I'm willing to look for my OG post/s if you want to discuss them but don't want to read back.
They are indeed just our opinions. I've not seen in your post, however, any reason why you think so other than you just do. You've said many reasons why "strongest may only be most skilled" but not "why" Mihawk can't be stronger than people like Shanks or why my reasons to think so are flawed (other than the title reason and, even then, you haven't told me "why" the title can't just mean literally what it says).
I hope this doesn't sound rude but you're free to provide a different topic or not answering if you're tired of this one. Anyway, in my first three posts about this topic I said:
That's how I see it. But as I said, I can only explain my reasoning, but I can't debate it for the simple fact that we haven't seen Mihawk being serious yet so it's all speculation.
P.S. I read your post and you are classifying BM as not a swordsman because she has external abilities? Is Vista not a swordsman because of his swordstyle? Is the octopus from FI not a swordsman because he utilises poison? Is King not a swordsman because he is a DF user? Is Law not a swordsman even though he primarily relies on his sword to channel his abilities?
I've already talked about King. I don't why you'd think Vista is not a swordsman. He literally only uses two swords, what's your point?
Law is not what I'm calling a "pure swordsman", no. I don't think he's included in the "automatically weaker than Mihawk" clause of his title, because in his case, he's not only a swordsman, he's has a tricky OP DF power. However, that doesn't mean he isn't weaker than Mihawk. Law definitely is.
Characters like Shanks and Vista, on the other hand, are literally only swordsmen. Whatever haki they might use in tandem with their sword is just part of their swordsmanship skills, just like Mihawk's (and as I also argued before, there's no tellings of Shanks CoA being stronger than Mihawk's. There's actually a telling of Mihawk's being stronger).
It gets murky real fast. Then, you have the question of, who exactly, amongst notable swordsman that you qualify, actually cares to be WSS?
You have a whole generation of pirates wanting to grow strong enough to take on the Yonkou, we have generations of Marines wanting to be Admirals, how many Swordsmen, even from a country of Swordsmen care to be known as the WSS?
How would you know?
You know it's Zoro's life objective because you read the beginning of the manga and the manga shows you his thoughts, and even then, his goal rarely passes through his immediate thoughts. It's rarely ever mentioned.
If the series followed a different crew, like Law's, you'd know as much about Zoro as you do about Bepo, so who's to know there aren't other characters with a similar ambition to Zoro's? And even more so, who's to say most of them aren't dead because they callenged Mihawk too soon (like Zoro originally did) but Mihawk wasn't as merciful?
You make many assumptions on a topic we just don't know much about.
On WSC, this could easily be tied to Kaidos DF - having the Dragon as the strongest creature in existence or having him as the last of an extinguished Race. It doesn't necessarily mean he could beat any other creature - he lost a few times IIRC.
WSM could also be that WB had the strongest physical body of any human being which was greatly enhanced by his DF. It doesn't mean he would beat any man alive (Roger is kind of proof of that). His title is more proven though as the Marines needed every advantage possible to take the man on (and dying).
I'm not defending Kaido's or Whitebeard's titles nor do I have a solid opinion on them or on Big Mom. My only discussion here is about Mihawk's position in the power ranking and his title wasn't my only point.
The weight on the titles being the only point needed is nik87's intervention on the conversation. He and I mostly agree on Mihawk's standing, but we have not given the same arguments.
Zoro wants to be the strongest swordsman in the world not because he wants "just more skill with the sword" or because he wants the WSS title like if it was some Championship Belt. For him being the strongest means defeating whoever is the current strongest swordsman (i.e. person who fights depending on one more on one swords).
If Shanks is stronger than Mihawk, Mihawk would stop being Zoro's objective and, instead, Shanks would become it and Zoro would have to defeat him in the future.
Not the strongest pirate. The strongest individual. A pirate is a sum of himself and his crew, which is what makes Yonkous, Yonkous (as was explained a long time ago. Of course they're monsters, but it's the size and power of their crew that makes them befitting of the title of Yonkous).
No. A pirate is a pirate. Luffy was a pirate before he met Zoro. He didn't become a pirate when he got a crew member. The emperors are the strongest due to their fleet AND their individual power. This assumption that they aren't the strongest individual pirates is supported nowhere in the manga. The opposite is actually emphasized through Whitebeard and who he was for example.
Mihawk CAN be a stronger fighter in a 1vs1 than Shanks and STILL be weaker as a pirate than him. Because he has no crew, and that's a huge disadvantage.
I have gone over and over this point far too many times on a single day to do so again.
Also your line seems to imply that Shanks is the strongest Yonkou. We don't know that.
Actually I didn't say or imply that Shanks is the strongest. Not sure where that came from. I am of the firm belief that, as of now, the manga points to the emperors being equal, one handed Shanks and all. I also think Mihawk is likely on that level.
Okay and Shanks can still be on his level even after losing an arm. There is no evidence that Mihawk is stronger because as I said the last time they fought they were rivals and Shanks became known as an emperor after. Mihawk's WSS title and Shanks one of the 4 strongest pirate titles both can be argued against one another. The claim that the emperors are not the strongest pirates or individuals or whatever technicality we're using is not supported in the manga especially when you have WB being an emperor and Big Mom, Kaido and Shanks being his rivals.
I 100% agree with you:
Dwelling on the Yonkou title only, while ignoring everything else int he manga has its issues.
That title is the only reason for people to believe Shanks is stronger in a 1vs1 than Mihawk, despite numerous tellings of that not being true. If you want to argue them instead of just complaining about "the WSS title means nothing", I laid most of them on my previous posts from today.
Yeah good thing I didn't do that since the statement that the emperors are the 4 strongest pirates, Shanks being hyped as one of the few who could stop Blackbeard along with Kaido and Big Mom (Marco was an after thought), Shanks stated as being on the level of WB, the strongest man, and one of the emperors actually being someone who clashed evenly with Roger, are all provided in the manga for us.
What numerous 'tellings' are there? WSS is the only thing, really.
In order for Mihawk being stronger to be proven true this would mean that Shanks and Mihawk were both above the emperors before Shanks lost his arm which powered him down to Big Mom/Kaido's level while Mihawk remained the strongest individual which makes him stronger than every character in the manga right now. This is why I said latching on to the WSS title and ignoring everything else, including other titles, makes little sense IMO.
You can believe whatever you wish I just don't get the underrating of the emperors to push Mihawk as the strongest character and pirate.
The main, possibly only, reason Mihawk is even compared to the emperors in the first place is because of Shanks and his rivalry with him so I find this hilariously ironic.
I have also emntioned twice or thrice today that I think Mihawk is stronger than Shanks by only a little. So here it seems like what you're assuming is mostly the same I have been assuming?
I have only been discussing Mihawk's strength and his title and I stand by the points I provided.
I have never said anything about WB's or Kaido's ranking. That was @nik87 if you want to argue his points.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
^ Just to be clear about what I just said. "The strongest individual among swordsmen". My choice of words was only to answer to your choice of words with which you implied Shanks is the strongest pirate.
I brought in WB's and Kaido's titles since I was discussing titles. And as I've said prior, WB and Kaido's titles didn't stop Roger and Big Mom from equaling them and Mihawk and Shanks have never fought with one of them winning, as far as we know, and while Shanks was an emperor and Mihawk was WSS. So we have no reason to believe that Mihawk's title makes him stronger than all other pirates, individuals and characters when others' titles wouldn't do the same for them. One can argue that Mihawk didn't want to fight armless Shanks proving his superiority but then we can also say that Shanks was ready to fight him despite knowing Mihawk's strength and knowing he himself lost his arm which leaves us where?
And I really didn't intend to debate about Mihawk or whatever since I was originally replying to you wondering where Big Mom ranks (to which I said Shanks/Kaido's level for now).
What changes if title holders are superior to others?
From the standpoint of One Piece world, I mean.
How is it affecting the world if Kaido>Whitebeard>Mihawk>rest is true?
Look at the firepower the marines need to fight a single Yonko crew. All the admirals, all the Vice Admirals, all the Warlords, Pacifistas, low level marines.
Shanks is a Yonko. Now, unless you think his crew is made up of guys who are stronger than admirals, there is 0 reason for his crew to not be taken out if they are sub-Mihawk level. This isn't a country to invade like BM or Kaido. It's a dude with a dozen or so crew members, a dude who is apparently weaker than one of your warlords...and yet when he and his crew show up, the marines say "...nah...let's end this battle".
The whole "3 powers" system doesn't make a lick of sense if one of the Shichibukai can take out a Yonko. The balance doesn't exist. If Shanks is that weak, the Marines don't let up. Akainu certainly doesn't back off.
I'll say it again - Shanks is the strongest Yonko. BB may be close to surpassing him, or already did, he's crazy strong too. The manga doesn't make sense without this being true. It makes far more sense for Shanks to be at that level based on everything we know and have seen, that it does for a title based on a guys skill with the sword making him the strongest character in the universe.
to the point of "Well, then isn't Zoro going after the wrong guy?". No. He is going after the guy acknowledged by the world for having the most skill with the sword. Shanks very well may be Mihawks equal in skill given their inconclusive duels, but since he is known more for being a Yonko, and doesn't seem to care to prove his swordsmanship, he isn't viewed as that. And it's fine. It doesn't make Zoro any less of a character to view surpassing Mihawk as his end goal.
What changes if title holders are superior to others?
From the standpoint of One Piece world, I mean.
How is it affecting the world if Kaido>Whitebeard>Mihawk>rest is true?
"Kaido is the WSC, therefore he's the strongest, and therefore that means the ranking is Kaido>WB>Mihawk".
"But didn't BM just fight him all night and leave unscathed? and didn't Shanks and like 13 guys stop him from going to Marineford? Doesn't that imply that the titles aren't meant as an actual statement of fact, but are more or less Oda hyping the characters?"
"Kaido is the WSC, therefore he's the strongest, and therefore that means the ranking is Kaido>WB>Mihawk".
"But didn't BM just fight him all night and leave unscathed? and didn't Shanks and like 13 guys stop him from going to Marineford? Doesn't that imply that the titles aren't meant as an actual statement of fact, but are more or less Oda hyping the characters?"
Kaido is r1 based on his title and Oda's SBS statement.
What is Oda gaining from Kaido trashing BM when we clearly can see now chapters later that it isnt benefiting the story since they teamed up?
If Shanks is the strongest Yonko why didnt he trash Kaido? What would Oda gain from that?
Also a warlord cannot beat a Yonko because Yonko also has his crew. If Oda wanted BM trashed he could have added the Calamities and there ya go but he gains nothing from it. It's not that Shanks is weak, it's that Mihawk is strong however Mihawk doesnt have the crew members which Shanks does. Also, neither Kizaru nor Aokiji backed off, they tried their best to kill Luffy despite Shanks saying to stop. If Shanks came by himself, without crew, nobody would listen to him even for a second. People keep underestimating the numbers, Kaido stalled 5 years because of combined armies of Oden and Hyogoro and slowly killed off Hyogoro's forces...
It has not been stated.
"A telling" doesn't mean that it's literally written. It means "It can possibly be implied".
The implication in this case was discussed yesterday and though it's not definitive proof, it's possible. On the other hand, there are no tellings other than "He's a Yonkou and Mihawk isn't" that Shanks has stronger CoA.
The telling is that Mihawk has achieved permanent blackening of Yoru, while Gryphon maintains the color of normal steel.
No. A pirate is a pirate. Luffy was a pirate before he met Zoro. He didn't become a pirate when he got a crew member. The emperors are the strongest due to their fleet AND their individual power. This assumption that they aren't the strongest individual pirates is supported nowhere in the manga. The opposite is actually emphasized through Whitebeard and who he was for example.
Luffy was a pirate before he met Zoro and he was weaker then because he was alone.
In the words of Mihawk himself, Luffy's greatest strength is his ability of making an ally out of everyone.
Mihawk has no crew and is a pirate, of course. But I'm not defending his strength as a pirate. That strength is "low" because he has no crew. Yet on a duel he's very strong. Don't you agree with this?
The emperors are overpowered monsters, but wouldn't be Yonkou without their crew. That was literally stated in the manga a long time ago.
Actually I didn't say or imply that Shanks is the strongest. Not sure where that came from. I am of the firm belief that, as of now, the manga points to the emperors being equal, one handed Shanks and all. I also think Mihawk is likely on that level.
Okay, I won't dwell on that, I guess I understood you poorly. If you think Mihawk is on that level then what are we arguing about? What I'm saying is that Mihawk is just a little bit above Shanks, while being on the same tier of strength, and admitting that this is only when discussing 1vs1. Mihawk's "crew" vs Shank's crew is an obvious lose.
Okay and Shanks can still be on his level even after losing an arm. There is no evidence that Mihawk is stronger because as I said the last time they fought they were rivals and Shanks became known as an emperor after. Mihawk's WSS title and Shanks one of the 4 strongest pirate titles both can be argued against one another. The claim that the emperors are not the strongest pirates or individuals or whatever technicality we're using is not supported in the manga especially when you have WB being an emperor and Big Mom, Kaido and Shanks being his rivals.
Yeah good thing I didn't do that since the statement that the emperors are the 4 strongest pirates, Shanks being hyped as one of the few who could stop Blackbeard along with Kaido and Big Mom (Marco was an after thought), Shanks stated as being on the level of WB, the strongest man, and one of the emperors actually being someone who clashed evenly with Roger, are all provided in the manga for us.
What numerous 'tellings' are there? WSS is the only thing, really.
Honestly I'm too lazy to give you a full answer to this question again: on the last page of comments there are other reasonings, the ones that come to mind now are:
- The title.
- The fact that I don't picture Zoro vs Shanks in the future of the manga. If the Strawhats ever clash with Shanks, it's Luffy that should evidently fight him. However, if Shanks is a strongest swordsman than Mihawk, then Zoro will have to defeat Shanks after dealing with Mihawk to keep his promise to Kuina. It's highly unlikely for the plot to take that direction, but it's what would happen if you're right, because the only thing certain about One Piece is that the strawhbats will accomplish their individual dreams in a fulfilling way. This is why I said ignoring the WSS title, and latching to the Yonkou title, makes little sense IMO.
- The thing about the blackening.
In order for Mihawk being stronger to be proven true this would mean that Shanks and Mihawk were both above the emperors before Shanks lost his arm which powered him down to Big Mom/Kaido's level while Mihawk remained the strongest individual which makes him stronger than every character in the manga right now. This is why I said latching on to the WSS title and ignoring everything else, including other titles, makes little sense IMO.
Why would it mean that? We don't know when or how Mihawk earned the title. He might have earned it after Shanks had become a Yonkou for all we know, and not while they were rivals. Perhaps Shanks would be the WSS if he had two arms, we don't know.
I agree with you that Shanks probably became stronger after losing his arm and while becoming a Yonkou. Why is it impossible during the same time lapse for Mihawk to have become stronger (but somehow ahead of him on individual strength thanks to his two arms) and earn the WSS title just like Shanks wasn't a Yonkou before that time?
Also, why would it be a problem if Mihawk was actually stronger than almost every single pirate in a 1vs1? The only reason you'd have a problem with that is because "He's not a Yonkou", and that certainly is latching to titles.
I don't think there's reason to believe Mihawk right now is stronger than Blackbeard, for example. I believe that'll be the last Yonkou to go down.
You can believe whatever you wish I just don't get the underrating of the emperors to push Mihawk as the strongest character and pirate.
The main, possibly only, reason Mihawk is even compared to the emperors in the first place is because of Shanks and his rivalry with him so I find this hilariously ironic.
I have given multiple reasons yesterday and recalled some of them now, so I think it's pretty uninformed from you to remark how hilariously ironic it is that "there are no reasons" for this believe. The same time Mihawk and Shanks met, very soon into the manga, it was implied that Mihawk was stronger and the scene was meant to hype Shanks' up to surprisingly being close to his level. This was before he was revealed as a Yonkou.
Later on he was revealed as a Yonkou and as an incredibly strong pirate. Now I find it ironic how you just admitted that the only reason you have a problem with admitting there's reasons to think Mihawk can be stronger than him is the Yonkou title.
"You can believe whatever you wish I just don't get the underrating of the emperors". See? You discuss the possibility of Mihawk being stronger and say it is possible that he isn't. Of course it is possible; it's not something that's been confirmed, but there are reasons, other than his title, to think that he IS stronger in a duel. On the other hand, while you keep repeating that it's possible Mihawk is weaker and that his title isn't valid (despite there being no actual reason for the title to lie) you don't provide any argument for why is Mihawk weaker than Shanks other than "Shank's a Yonkou".
I said this just in the last comment, but I'll say it again: You're free to argue that Mihawk isn't stronger, but if you do, please debate the other reasonings and stop simply blindly questioning his title while blindly hyping the Yonkou title. Because that's literally your whole post this time.
I'm not undermining any character, in no sense of the word.
I brought in WB's and Kaido's titles since I was discussing titles. And as I've said prior, WB and Kaido's titles didn't stop Roger and Big Mom from equaling them and Mihawk and Shanks have never fought with one of them winning, as far as we know, and while Shanks was an emperor and Mihawk was WSS. So we have no reason to believe that Mihawk's title makes him stronger than all other pirates, individuals and characters when others' titles wouldn't do the same for them. One can argue that Mihawk didn't want to fight armless Shanks proving his superiority but then we can also say that Shanks was ready to fight him despite knowing Mihawk's strength and knowing he himself lost his arm which leaves us where?
The focus of my discussion isn't only Mihawk's title, so I'm not discussing titles and I am not discussing WB and Kaido. I've been clear about this over an over. There's no reason to discuss Roger or Big Mom in this topic.
To answer the highlighted part:
"One can argue" that, yet that was literally never one of my points. I also never said Shanks was "that weak that he couldn't possibly even clash against Mihawk" nor I think they'd have gone and fought to the death when they're clearly friendly rivals (or ex-rivals) on the way of the sword.
However, if you want to make that scene into a point, I'll point out something: Not a single character of the few who have interacted with Mihawk (not Shanks, not Vista, not Doflamingo, not Whitebeard) has questioned Mihawk's title.
And I really didn't intend to debate about Mihawk or whatever since I was originally replying to you wondering where Big Mom ranks (to which I said Shanks/Kaido's level for now).
I wasn't really wondering. I said I don't know or care about where she ranks precisely because I was no discussing WB, Kaido or her.
I know she's a Yonkou and ranks among them somehow, but I was talking 100% about Mihawk and about why I think he stands where he stands.
Luffy was a pirate before he met Zoro and he was weaker then because he was alone.
In the words of Mihawk himself, Luffy's greatest strength is his ability of making an ally out of everyone.
You said he wasn't a pirate but an individual alone. That's not true. A pirate can be by themselves. There is also no evidence that the emperors being the strongest does not refer to their individual power as well.
Mihawk has no crew and is a pirate, of course. But I'm not defending his strength as a pirate. That strength is "low" because he has no crew. Yet on a duel he's very strong. Don't you agree with this?
The strongest man alive who was equal to Roger was an emperor. Clearly your assumption that strong pirate = strong pirate crew isn't grounded in the manga and is disproved by the existence of Roger and Whitebeard being the strongest individuals around.
The emperors are overpowered monsters, but wouldn't be Yonkou without their crew. That was literally stated in the manga a long time ago.
It also was stated that the yonkou were the strongest pirates AND WB was the strongest man. So yes it doesn't refer to crew alone. It is possible that Mihawk with a similar crew would be an emperor however as I've said before nothing in the manga strictly makes the title refer to crew only. Also my point is that it is not a coincidence that the Yonko are stated to be the strongest pirates and one of them was the strongest man on par with Roger.
Okay, I won't dwell on that, I guess I understood you poorly. If you think Mihawk is on that level then what are we arguing about? What I'm saying is that Mihawk is just a little bit above Shanks, while being on the same tier of strength, and admitting that this is only when discussing 1vs1. Mihawk's "crew" vs Shank's crew is an obvious lose.
I'm arguing about people making the claim that Mihawk is stronger than the emperors because he has the title WSS which would mean he's the strongest pirate and strongest man alive which would have been stated if it were true as opposed to the strongest swordsman which results in people trying to find out what qualifies one to be a swordsman. lol
Honestly I'm too lazy to give you a full answer to this question again: on the last page of comments there are other reasonings, the ones that come to mind now are:
- The title.
- The fact that I don't picture Zoro vs Shanks in the future of the manga. If the Strawhats ever clash with Shanks, it's Luffy that should evidently fight him. However, if Shanks is a strongest swordsman than Mihawk, then Zoro will have to defeat Shanks after dealing with Mihawk to keep his promise to Kuina. It's highly unlikely for the plot to take that direction, but it's what would happen if you're right, because the only thing certain about One Piece is that the strawhbats will accomplish their individual dreams in a fulfilling way. This is why I said ignoring the WSS title, and latching to the Yonkou title, makes little sense IMO.
- The thing about the blackening.
His title doesn't surpass Whitebeard's or any of the emperors. It would have been stated and shown clearly that he's the strongest man/pirate if his WSS meant he was stronger than Shanks and Big Mom because they use swords. Shanks and Mihawk can be equal and Zoro beating him to snatch that title would still make complete sense. Shanks could die before Zoro faces Mihawk and the title shifting to Zoro with his win would still make sense.
You're ignoring that Luffy surpassing the Emperors puts him above Prime WB and Roger so yes the emperor title is actually tied to Luffy if you want to go into all that tied to Zoro business.
Why would it mean that? We don't know when or how Mihawk earned the title. He might have earned it after Shanks had become a Yonkou for all we know, and not while they were rivals. Perhaps Shanks would be the WSS if he had two arms, we don't know.
Exactly you don't know. All you do know is that Shanks is one of the 4 strongest pirates alive, Shanks is said to be on WB's level, the emperors are the highest level of power in terms of pirates (Prime WB equaled Roger) and Mihawk has no recorded win over Shanks or vice versa, while Mihawk has the WSS title but is not hyped to be stronger than any emperor in the manga.
So saying WSS matters because of Zoro but the emperor title doesn't matter despite the feats and battles associated with it, is contradictory. Prime WB was an emperor and he was on par with Roger and Garp in their prime. Based on the manga Mihawk can't be stronger than Roger or WB right now because that would mean Zoro's goal, which is easier than Luffy's, makes him stronger than Luffy when he surpasses Roger.
I agree with you that Shanks probably became stronger after losing his arm and while becoming a Yonkou. Why is it impossible during the same time lapse for Mihawk to have become stronger (but somehow ahead of him on individual strength thanks to his two arms) and earn the WSS title just like Shanks wasn't a Yonkou before that time?
It's not impossible for Mihawk to have gotten stronger too. It is however impossible for Mihawk to be stronger than Big Mom, Kaido, Shanks, WB and BB right now. And yes Shanks gaining the title of emperor years after he lost his arm would likely mean he got a power up.
Also, why would it be a problem if Mihawk was actually stronger than almost every single pirate in a 1vs1? The only reason you'd have a problem with that is because "He's not a Yonkou", and that certainly is latching to titles.
Um it would be a problem because it would make Zoro's final opponent stronger than most if not all of Luffy's which makes 0 sense.
It would also place Mihawk equal to or above Roger and Prime WB, right now.
And no your headcanon doesn't make him stronger than almost every single pirate in a 1 vs 1, it makes current Mihawk stronger than every single pirate. He would be the current Roger which is clearly not the case. So yes the best he could be right now is equal to the emperors.
I don't think there's reason to believe Mihawk right now is stronger than Blackbeard, for example. I believe that'll be the last Yonkou to go down.
Well Blackbeard being stronger than the other emperors right now is not confirmed and last time it was discussed the elders said one of the emperors could stop him or even Marco with help from WB's crew. So as far as we know, BB is also, at best, equal to Shanks and the rest right now. What happens in the future isn't really relevant here.
I have given multiple reasons yesterday and recalled some of them now, so I think it's pretty uninformed from you to remark how hilariously ironic it is that "there are no reasons" for this believe. The same time Mihawk and Shanks met, very soon into the manga, it was implied that Mihawk was stronger and the scene was meant to hype Shanks' up to surprisingly being close to his level. This was before he was revealed as a Yonkou.
No it is hilariously ironic because it's because he was Shanks' rival that people think he's above Shanks. If he never had an interaction with Shanks or had no association, him being beyond the emperors would rarely be brought up especially given how people view Marineford ie when he was fighting Vista and not WB. Like it or not Shanks bolsters his standing in the manga.
So it is ironic that he depended on Shanks for this but fans are quick to dismiss Shanks as weaker because of that title and him losing an arm before becoming an emperor.
No it wasn't implied he was stronger. Just as I said. If you want to use Mihawk saying he doesn't want to fight an armless Shanks as proof that he's stronger, others can use Shanks wanting to fight Mihawk and being ready for a fight to say Shanks is equal or stronger, himself.
Later on he was revealed as a Yonkou and as an incredibly strong pirate. Now I find it ironic how you just admitted that the only reason you have a problem with admitting there's reasons to think Mihawk can be stronger than him is the Yonkou title.
That's not what I admitted though. The yonko title as I've explained but you don't seem to get isn't just me yelling Yonko like you all say WSS all the time to prove his superiority. The emperors are literally called the strongest pirates, on WB's level and as I've said so many times what they did and who they are adds validity to the title. Whitebeard who was equal to Roger was an emperor. Whitebeard who clashed evenly with Roger was an emperor. Big Mom who was their rival over 20 years ago who never suffered a defeat as an emperor when Roger etc. ruled is an Emperor. 2 title holders, vs your 1 are emperors i.e. WSM WB and WSC Kaido.
"You can believe whatever you wish I just don't get the underrating of the emperors". See? You discuss the possibility of Mihawk being stronger and say it is possible that he isn't. Of course it is possible; it's not something that's been confirmed, but there are reasons, other than his title, to think that he IS stronger in a duel. On the other hand, while you keep repeating that it's possible Mihawk is weaker and that his title isn't valid (despite there being no actual reason for the title to lie) you don't provide any argument for why is Mihawk weaker than Shanks other than "Shank's a Yonkou".
I never discussed the possibility of him being stronger. Where on Earth did you get that? I said at best he's equal to an emperor. Anything is possible. Oda can kill off all the straw hats next chapter if he wants, that doesn't mean we should act like it's a possibility because it isn't confirmed impossible. lol.
I did provide many reasons. You just love Mihawk so you don't get it. Again the yonko are called the strongest pirates literally and known to match Roger it's not a title I need to go search for technicalities to justify like which person who uses a sword is a swordsman and which isn't, like with the WSS title. So yes Oda can snap his fingers and make Mihawk the strongest character tomorrow but that's not relevant to the CURRENT series. No pirate right now can be above the emperors because they are called the 4 strongest/most formidable/most powerful pirates and they were the rival to the pirate king and one another in a 1 vs 1 situation in addition to, as fleets.
For Mihawk to be stronger, he'd have to be known as the world's strongest man or pirate or person which he isn't. And even then that doesn't mean that someone else can equal him since Roger tied with WB when he was called the WSM.
Simply put, the emperor title has clear indicators of power and emperors have feats and other types of hype. Somebody didn't just say the emperors are the strongest with nothing else happening after with them.
Ignoring the rest: Shanks stopped a war, clashed equally with WB when he wasn't sick at the time, is seen as a threat to Blackbeard by and Big Mom, him and his crew skirmished with Kaido and his crew and came out of it fine and oh yeah he's Luffy's idol and a rival of Blackebeard the likely final villain.
WSS, though has you all wondering who's a swordsman and who isn't and being Zoro's end goal has you all hoping that this means stronger than Shanks and other emperors even. Fingers crossed* Quite funny imo.
I said this just in the last comment, but I'll say it again: You're free to argue that Mihawk isn't stronger, but if you do, please debate the other reasonings and stop simply blindly questioning his title while blindly hyping the Yonkou title. Because that's literally your whole post this time.
I'm not undermining any character, in no sense of the word.
What other 'reasonings'? He didn't want to fight an arm less Shanks? He's Zoro's goal? Those are reasons to say he's the strongest character?
Mihawk being 100 and Shanks being 99 only helps the beliefs of you all. It doesn't actually align with the canon manga where he isn't the strongest man or pirate and hasn't beaten or tied with any top tier like Whitebeard, Kaido or Big Mom.
Blindly hyping the yonko. One of them equaled the Pirate King on panel. All 4 are stated to be on the same level and are called the 4 strongest pirates. How is that blind?
Mihawk having an advantage over Shanks and a disadvantage against Kaido for example doesn't make Mihawk stronger than Shanks and weaker than Kaido. If that is your logic ie he is stronger than Shanks because he uses swords but possibly not Kaido since he doesn't or Big Mom since she may not be considered a swordsman, then it is flawed. Having a style or type advantage doesn't equal being stronger generally.
The focus of my discussion isn't only Mihawk's title, so I'm not discussing titles and I am not discussing WB and Kaido. I've been clear about this over an over. There's no reason to discuss Roger or Big Mom in this topic.
Big Mom is an emperor and Roger is the height of power for characters. There is a reason, clearly. If you can bring up Zoro, I can bring up other emperors and the pirate king they competed with.
To answer the highlighted part:
"One can argue" that, yet that was literally never one of my points. I also never said Shanks was "that weak that he couldn't possibly even clash against Mihawk" nor I think they'd have gone and fought to the death when they're clearly friendly rivals (or ex-rivals) on the way of the sword.
However, if you want to make that scene into a point, I'll point out something: Not a single character of the few who have interacted with Mihawk (not Shanks, not Vista, not Doflamingo, not Whitebeard) has questioned Mihawk's title.
No you just think Mihawk is stronger because he's the WSS and Zoro's end goal for example. Btw no one has questioned Shanks title yet either. No one goes oh look the 2nd best swordsman when they see him. In fact they stopped a war because he came. That's when Mihawk left.
The difference is that I can accept that Mihawk can equal Shanks and the rest at present and still be called the strongest swordsman while others can't accept anything other than Mihawk is marginally stronger because of his title, Zoro and Shanks' arm etc.
Which is why I brought up other people who have titles and feats of being the strongest and how others have equaled them regardless.
I wasn't really wondering. I said I don't know or care about where she ranks precisely because I was no discussing WB, Kaido or her.
I know she's a Yonkou and ranks among them somehow, but I was talking 100% about Mihawk and about why I think he stands where he stands.
Didn't get that when you said you didn't know where she ranks with Kaido, Mihawk or Shanks. Hence my reply about where she stood with Kaido, Mihawk and Shanks. See below.
The homies combined with Big Mom's ability to snatch part of someone's soul instantly like she did to one of her son's with just a touch of her hand could give her an edge.
Honestly I don't know, but my point is that despite carrying a sword, BM's not a swordsman in the sense that Shanks or Mihawk are, so she's not immediately weaker than the WSS going just by the title alone. She could still be weaker, though, I don't know. I don't have a solid opinion on her strength.
I don't know how she ranks compared to Mihawk, Kaido or Shanks.
This is my last reply on this matter. I know you said you wouldn't respond earlier but well...
Anyway on topic, you have your opinion. I said what I had to say. Believe what you wish. I'll stick to what I read and understood, myself.
It has not been stated.
"A telling" doesn't mean that it's literally written. It means "It can possibly be implied".
The implication in this case was discussed yesterday and though it's not definitive proof, it's possible. On the other hand, there are no tellings other than "He's a Yonkou and Mihawk isn't" that Shanks has stronger CoA.
The telling is that Mihawk has achieved permanent blackening of Yoru, while Gryphon maintains the color of normal steel.
Well i don't know if i agree with that tbh. We don't even know how a black blade is created in the first place - or do we? My memory is terrible.
A black blade probably requires a great CoA but i highly doubt it's all there is to it. At least i doubt it means that anyone not having a black blade necessarily has a worse CoA than Mihawk or Ryuma.
It could just be that nobody bothered with making one. Roger might not have bothered with a black blade so he didn't. Same with Shanks. You might have to actively try to turn the blade into it, have a huge connection with your blade, a connection such that only swordsmen that truly dedicate their lives to swordsmanship can achieve, which would be the case with Mihawk and Ryuma but not necessarily Shanks or Roger. I mean i don't know.
But i think that saying Mihawk and Ryuma have the greatest CoA because they made black blades, is a stretch, at the very least it's an asumption.
And we don't even know if Mihawk himself was the one who made his sword a Black Blade. I think he is and i have zero reason to think otherwise, but for all we know he could just be wielding one, just like Zoro wielded Shusui.
Anyway, if Mihawk was a better swordsman than Shanks and also had a better CoA, then he should have won these duels. But they were equal. I doubt Mihawk has a better CoA than Shanks, it should be equal at best imo.
You said he wasn't a pirate but an individual alone. That's not true. A pirate can be by themselves. There is also no evidence that the emperors being the strongest does not refer to their individual power as well.
That is not what I said and I literally just repeated myself in my last answer, so I can only hope I won't have to clarify it a third time.
I said Mihawk is the strongest individual swordsman instead of the strongest pirate. That doesn't mean that he's an individual and not a pirate. It means he's the strongest individual in a 1vs1 with swords, who is also a pirate, but is not the strongest pirate.
The strongest man alive who was equal to Roger was an emperor. Clearly your assumption that strong pirate = strong pirate crew isn't grounded in the manga and is disproved by the existence of Roger and Whitebeard being the strongest individuals around.
First of all you said that backwards. My believe is that strong pirate =/= strong pirate crew.
All the cats are felines but not all felines are cats.
The fact that the Yonkou captains are monsters doesn't mean there cannot exist a stronger person.
Do you realize that what you're saying is that Shanks doesn't need his crew, right? You're trying to push that Shanks' crew has the same strength whether he's a lone person or he has his full rooster of strong subordinates by his side fighting with him.
Do you not realize that's just foolish? I'll repeat myself again: Of course Shanks IS strong as a monster, but the reason he can compete with Kaido as a Yonkou and why he's so feared is because he's not alone. Even a monster like Whitebeard in his youth would be at a disadvantage if he had no crew. Any enemies that he made or the marines could just go and gank up on him together. Even if in 1vs1 he's equal to, say, Kaido, being surrounded by Kaido + his strongest subordinates would mean he's at a clear disadvantage. It's his crew that makes that impossible.
Mihawk being stronger than Shanks doesn't mean he's stronger than him as a pirate, because if they were to fight for real, outside of a duel, he would also be under fire from Beckmann, Lucky, Yasopp and the rest. So of course there are two different kinds of strength and Mihawk being superior in a 1vs1 doesn't make him the ultimate pirate because he's 100% lacking in the crew domain, which is why he's not a Yonkou. Lucky for him, he doesn't want to be one.
Also Roger was never a Yonkou, so I don't see how Roger's existence disproves anything.
It also was stated that the yonkou were the strongest pirates AND WB was the strongest man. So yes it doesn't refer to crew alone. It is possible that Mihawk with a similar crew would be an emperor however as I've said before nothing in the manga strictly makes the title refer to crew only. Also my point is that it is not a coincidence that the Yonko are stated to be the strongest pirates and one of them was the strongest man on par with Roger.
Once again: All the cats are felines but not all felines are cats. Your point of Whitebeard's strength, who isn't even part of the discussion, is resting on a fallacy.
Whitebeard could have been stronger than Mihawk, but that doesn't mean every Yonkou is. I never said Whitebeard was weaker than Mihawk. He's not even a swordsman, so I don't see why you keep talking about Whitebeard.
I'm arguing about people making the claim that Mihawk is stronger than the emperors because he has the title WSS which would mean he's the strongest pirate and strongest man alive which would have been stated if it were true as opposed to the strongest swordsman which results in people trying to find out what qualifies one to be a swordsman. lol
I've explained like five or six times why being the strongest swordsman doesn't mean being the strongest pirate, DESPITE him being a pirate, simply because what makes a pirate is more than individual strength.
His title doesn't surpass Whitebeard's or any of the emperors. It would have been stated and shown clearly that he's the strongest man/pirate if his WSS meant he was stronger than Shanks and Big Mom because they use swords. Shanks and Mihawk can be equal and Zoro beating him to snatch that title would still make complete sense. Shanks could die before Zoro faces Mihawk and the title shifting to Zoro with his win would still make sense.
Shanks dying before Mihawk would make Zoro title still valid, but it would be quite a void victory if "he's only the strongest because the actual strongest died a couple of days before he beat the second strongest Mihawk". Narrative-wise it would suck after 30 years of following Zoro's trajectory as one of the main cast.
You're ignoring that Luffy surpassing the Emperors puts him on Roger and Prime Whitebeard's level or above so yes the emperor title is actually tied to Luffy if you want to go into all that.
I don't even know what your point is here so I'll just say a different thing:
You're ignoring that Luffy is being called the fifth emperor by the press just because he defeated Doflamingo, who is very far from being a Yonkou, and despite having no real territories, just because he suddenly got quite a huge "crew" (the alliance) behind his back. Go figure, the Yonkou title is somewhat tied to the crew size.
Exactly you don't know. All you do know is that Shanks is one of the 4 strongest pirates alive, Shanks is said to be on WB's level, the emperors are the highest level of power in terms of pirates (Prime WB equaled Roger) while Mihawk has the WSS title but is not hyped to be stronger than any emperor in the manga. So saying WSS matters because of Zoro but the emperor title doesn't matter despite the feats and battles associated with it, is contradictory. The Prime WB was an emperor and he was on par with Roger and Garp in their prime. Based on the manga Mihawk can't be stronger than Roger or WB right now because that would mean Zoro's goal, which is easier than Luffy's, makes him stronger than or equal to Luffy when he surpasses Roger.
Luffy's goal isn't to become "as strong as Roger's was". Mihawk could be stronger than Roger and surpassing him would still be an easier goal than finding the One Piece.
To become the world's strongest swordsman Zoro only has to defeat one lone man who might as well be stronger than SOME of the yonkou (I put SOME in high caps because you keep arguing about them despite how I keep repeating I'm not talking about all the Yonkou and I don't care about most of them). Luffy has to take down multiple Yonkou's together with their crews which are also full of monsters and multiple rivals that as far as they know have the same potential as Luffy if not more (pirates like Law or Kidd).
It's not like defeating Mihawk would make every other opponent fodder, I've been clear I only think he's stronger than Shanks by a little and that I'm not ranking him above others like Blackbeard.
It's not impossible for Mihawk to have gotten stronger too. It is however impossible for Mihawk to be stronger than Big Mom, Kaido, Shanks, WB and BB right now. And yes Shanks gaining the title of emperor years after he lost his arm would likely mean he got a power up.
You're the only one talking about Big Mom, Kaido and Whitebeard but there's literally no reason why "It is however impossible for Mihawk". Well, the only reason is that you'll keep ignoring I'm talking about 1vs1 duels while you don't make a difference between that and actual crews confrontations.
Um it would be a problem because it would make Zoro's final fight stronger than Luffy's which makes 0 sense. It would also place Mihawk above Roger and Prime WB, right now. And no your headcanon doesn't make him stronger than almost every single pirate in a 1 vs 1, it makes current Mihawk stronger than every single pirate. He would be the current Roger which is clearly not the case. So yes the best he could be right now is equal to the emperors.
Well Blackbeard being stronger than the other emperors right now is not confirmed and last time it was discussed the elders said one of the emperors could stop him or even Marco with help from WB's crew. So as far as we know, BB is also, at best, equal to Shanks and the rest right now. What happens in the future isn't really relevant here.
You're the one who keeps talking about the Yonkou and latching to that title. If you don't talk about them, neither will I. We could make a different topic about BB and the reasons there are to hype him but I prefer not mixing two topics.
No it is hilariously ironic because it's because he's Shanks rival that people think he's equal to or above Shanks. If he never had an interaction with Shanks or no association, him being beyond the emperors would rarely be brought up especially given how people view Marineford. So it is ironic that he depended on Shanks for this but fans are quick to dismiss Shanks as weaker because of that title and him losing an arm before becoming an emperor.
Nobody is diminishing Shanks. Not I, at least. I love the character and he's a monster. Mihawk being a bit stronger than him in a duel doesn't take anything from him as a character. Contrary to it, Shanks isn't a guy who would worry or feel any shame from a fact like that.
Once again, Mihawk being stronger in a 1vs1 doesn't mean Mihawk could go and take him down in a real pirate battle with his crew involved. There IS a difference.
No it wasn't implied he was stronger. Just as I said. If you want to use Mihawk saying he doesn't want to fight an armless Shanks as proof that he's stronger, others can use Shanks wanting to fight Mihawk and being ready for a fight to say Shanks is equal or stronger, himself.
I didn't use that. I literally said in the post you're quoting that was not what I was using. It's pretty clear you don't really care to debate this topic and that you'll just slide out of whatever I say.
That's not what I admitted though. The yonko title as I've explained but you don't seem to get isn't just me yelling Yonko like you all say WSS all the time to prove his superiority. The emperors are literally called the strongest pirates, on WB's level and as I've said so many times what they did and who they are adds validity to the title. Whitebeard who was equal to Roger was an emperor. Whitebeard who clashed evenly with Roger was an emperor. Big Mom who was their rival over 20 years ago who never suffered a defeat as an emperor when Roger etc. ruled is an Emperor. 2 title holders, vs your 1 are emperors i.e. WSM WB and WSC Kaido.
Why do you keep talking about WB and his title while at the same time ignoring Mihawk's title? You're talking more about the WSS title than I did, yet most of your posts are "they are yonkou so they're the strongest pirates and WB is the strongest man alive so somehow that means Mihawk can't be stronger than a Yonkou". It's a huge fallacy.
Also, stop talking about Roger's times as if that proved anything, Mihawk is also an undefeated pirate that was infamous when Roger was still alive, according to his vibre card.
I never discussed the possibility of him being stronger. Where on Earth did you get that? I said at best he's equal to an emperor. Anything is possible. Oda can kill off all the straw hats next chapter if he wants, that doesn't mean we should act like it's a possibility because it isn't confirmed impossible. lol.
Now you're not even trying to pretend you try to understand my points.
To discuss something doesn't mean to support it. We ARE discussing the topic of Mihawk being stronger. I did say in that same sentence that you're defending that he Mihawk isn't stronger.
And I'm not saying "MIHAWK IS STRONGER BECAUSE I LOVE THE CHARACTER". I'm giving actual reasons why I think so and you haven't changed my mind on those points.
I did provide many reasons. You just love Mihawk so you don't get it. Again the yonko are called the strongest pirates literally and known to match Roger it's not a title I need to go search for technicalities to justify like which person who uses a sword is a swordsman and which isn't to talk about the WSS title. So yes Oda can snap his fingers and make Mihawk the strongest character tomorrow but that's not relevant to the CURRENT series. No pirate right now can be above the emperors because they are called the 4 strongest/most formidable/most powerful pirates and they were the rival to the pirate king and one another in a 1 vs 1 situation in addition to as fleets. For Mihawk to be stronger he'd have to be known as the world's strongest man or pirate or person which he isn't. And even then that doesn't mean that someone else can equal him since Roger tied with WB when he was called the WSM.
Why would that be the case? You say Yonkous are all equal yet you are repeatedly making a point out of Whitbeard being the strongest man which would mean they aren't 100% equal. Whitebeard isn't a swordsman so of course he could be stronger than Mihawk, but that doesn't mean Mihawk can't be stronger than Shanks.
I really think I should just drop the conversation here. I'll quote again what you just said:
Again the yonko are called the strongest pirates literally and known to match Roger it's not a title I need to go search for technicalities to justify like which person who uses a sword is a swordsman and which isn't to talk about the WSS title
Your point is "WSS is just a title and I can diminiss it, despite the title literally being "The strongest something", because there's no way he's stronger than the Yonkou, which is also a title that implies that they're the strongest pirates".
Your only real point other than rambling about Whitebeard having been Roger's rival in the past revolves around the Yonkou title somehow being something that cannot be doubted. I haven't argued about titles have as much as you have.
What other 'reasonings'? He didn't want to right an arm less Shanks? He's Zoro's goal? Those are reasons to say he's the strongest character? Mihawk being 100 and Shanks being 99 only helps the beliefs of you all. It doesn't actually align with the canon manga where he isn't the strongest man or pirate and hasn't beaten or tied with any top tier like Whitebeard, Kaido or Big Mom.
You're the only one who has brought up that "he doesn't want to fight an armless Shanks". It was never my point. I disagree about it not aligning with the canon manga. It doesn't align with your headcannon that there's no way Mihawk could be stronger in a duel than Shanks. As I said back in my first post, of course I can't prove Mihawk would win; I can only argue the reasons why I think that he should be able to do so, but you also cannot prove that he can't without resorting to "impossible because Shanks is a Yonkou".
Blindly hyping the yonko. One of them equaled the Pirate King on panel. All 4 are stated to be on the same level and are called the 4 strongest pirates. How is that blind?
"They are called the 4 strongest pirates" and Mihawk is called the world strongest swordsman even by said 4 pirates.
You're still using a title (Yonkou) as a point.
I could go on again about how Mihawk being stronger in a 1vs1 doesn't make him "stronger as a pirate" but I HOPE you'd have gotten my point already. You can disagree with my point and we could agree to disagree, but you try to disprove the point and "make me realize that I'm wrong", which is impossible because there's nothing in the manga that really tells us I'm wrong here.
Big Mom is an emperor and Roger is the height of power for characters. There is a reason, clearly. If you can bring up Zoro, I can bring up other emperors and the pirate king they competed with.
You can bring them up but they bring nothing to the table.
I brought Zoro to make a very important narrative point, you're bringing other characters to tell me "Well these could be stronger than Mihawk because they did amazing things in the past!" despite not even knowing what Mihawk has or hasn't done in the past. We lack information on him, that's all. All in due time.
Anyway, different Yonkous are different characters. Talking about how great Whitebeard was means nothing because we are talking about Shanks, and your point about "Shanks is said to be on his level" gets countered by "Mihawk is said to be the strongest swordsman". If you want to acknowledge what characters say, then I don't see why you hate the WSS title that much, since it's the same.
No you just think Mihawk is stronger because he's the WSS and Zoro's end goal. Btw no one has questioned Shanks title yet. In fact they stopped a war because he came.
Well, now you know. I was answering to somebody who also started talking about Big Mom and I said that because I didn't want to discuss about her.
I only wanted to give my opinion on Mihawk, a character I have paid close attention to. I haven't paid that much attention to Big Mom nor really care about her at all, to be honest, so I don't talk about her because I don't have much to say.
Well i don't know if i agree with that tbh. We don't even know how a black blade is created in the first place - or do we? My memory is terrible.
A black blade probably requires a great CoA but i highly doubt it's all there is to it. At least i doubt it means that anyone not having a black blade necessarily has a worse CoA than Mihawk or Ryuma.
It could just be that nobody bothered with making one. Roger might not have bothered with a black blade so he didn't. Same with Shanks. You might have to actively try to turn the blade into it, have a huge connection with your blade, a connection such that only swordsmen that truly dedicate their lives to swordsmanship can achieve, which would be the case with Mihawk and Ryuma but not necessarily Shanks or Roger. I mean i don't know.
But i think that saying Mihawk and Ryuma have the greatest CoA because they made black blades, is a stretch, at the very least it's an asumption.
And we don't even know if Mihawk himself was the one who made his sword a Black Blade. I think he is and i have zero reason to think otherwise, but for all we know he could just be wielding one, just like Zoro wielded Shusui.
Anyway, if Mihawk was a better swordsman than Shanks and also had a better CoA, then he should have won these duels. But they were equal. I doubt Mihawk has a better CoA than Shanks, it should be equal at best imo.
How the blackening works wasn't specified in great detail but it was said to be something that happens over time when a swordsman of great skill keeps using his sword in tandem with CoA and we know Oden didn't manage to do so despite reaching Laugh Tale together with Roger. So far only Ryuuma's and Mihawk's swords have undergone said transformation and Ryuuma was definitely one of the greatest swordsmen of his generation.
That wouldn't mean Ryuuma and Mihawk has the strongest CoA, but that they're the characters who somehow best use their CoA through their swords, or something along those lines. That doesn't mean ot me either that their CoA is automatically stronger than, for example, Kaido's, but I never planned to rank Mihawk and Kaido in the first place. For all we know Kaido, Whitebeard, Dragon and BB can all beat Mihawk, I don't have an opinion on that.
Whenever we see a character (Zoro or whoever else) turn his blade black onscreen for the first time we will see if it really is voluntary or not. It's not known 100% sure and if it, that's true. I also concede that it's not proven that Mihawk turned his own blade black but I won't doubt that until the manga makes me doubt it.
We don't know if Shanks and Mihawks duels were all draws or a combination of wins and defeats so we can't say much other than they're both skillful enough to be rivals of swordsmanship, but what I do think is that if Shanks would have beaten Mihawk, then Mihawk himself wouldn't have accepted being called something like the WSS without getting Shanks back for it, whether with 1 or 2 arms.
That is not what I said and I literally just repeated myself in my last answer, so I can only hope I won't have to clarify it a third time.
I said Mihawk is the strongest individual swordsman instead of the strongest pirate. That doesn't mean that he's an individual and not a pirate. It means he's the strongest individual in a 1vs1 with swords, who is also a pirate, but is not the strongest pirate.
First of all you said that backwards. My believe is that strong pirate =/= strong pirate crew.
All the cats are felines but not all felines are cats.
The fact that the Yonkou captains are monsters doesn't mean there cannot exist a stronger person.
Do you realize that what you're saying is that Shanks doesn't need his crew, right? You're trying to push that Shanks' crew has the same strength whether he's a lone person or he has his full rooster of strong subordinates by his side fighting with him.
Do you not realize that's just foolish? I'll repeat myself again: Of course Shanks IS strong as a monster, but the reason he can compete with Kaido as a Yonkou and why he's so feared is because he's not alone. Even a monster like Whitebeard in his youth would be at a disadvantage if he had no crew. Any enemies that he made or the marines could just go and gank up on him together. Even if in 1vs1 he's equal to, say, Kaido, being surrounded by Kaido + his strongest subordinates would mean he's at a clear disadvantage. It's his crew that makes that impossible.
Mihawk being stronger than Shanks doesn't mean he's stronger than him as a pirate, because if they were to fight for real, outside of a duel, he would also be under fire from Beckmann, Lucky, Yasopp and the rest. So of course there are two different kinds of strength and Mihawk being superior in a 1vs1 doesn't make him the ultimate pirate because he's 100% lacking in the crew domain, which is why he's not a Yonkou. Lucky for him, he doesn't want to be one.
Also Roger was never a Yonkou, so I don't see how Roger's existence disproves anything.
Once again: All the cats are felines but not all felines are cats. Your point of Whitebeard's strength, who isn't even part of the discussion, is resting on a fallacy.
Whitebeard could have been stronger than Mihawk, but that doesn't mean every Yonkou is. I never said Whitebeard was weaker than Mihawk. He's not even a swordsman, so I don't see why you keep talking about Whitebeard.
I've explained like five or six times why being the strongest swordsman doesn't mean being the strongest pirate, DESPITE him being a pirate, simply because what makes a pirate is more than individual strength.
Whitebeard, Whitebeard, Whitebeard.
Shanks dying before Mihawk would make Zoro title still valid, but it would be quite a void victory if "he's only the strongest because the actual strongest died a couple of days before he beat the second strongest Mihawk". Narrative-wise it would suck after 30 years of following Zoro's trajectory as one of the main cast.
I don't even know what your point is here so I'll just say a different thing:
You're ignoring that Luffy is being called the fifth emperor by the press just because he defeated Doflamingo, who is very far from being a Yonkou, and despite having no real territories, just because he suddenly got quite a huge "crew" (the alliance) behind his back. Go figure, the Yonkou title is somewhat tied to the crew size.
Luffy's goal isn't to become "as strong as Roger's was". Mihawk could be stronger than Roger and surpassing him would still be an easier goal than finding the One Piece.
To become the world's strongest swordsman Zoro only has to defeat one lone man who might as well be stronger than SOME of the yonkou (I put SOME in high caps because you keep arguing about them despite how I keep repeating I'm not talking about all the Yonkou and I don't care about most of them). Luffy has to take down multiple Yonkou's together with their crews which are also full of monsters and multiple rivals that as far as they know have the same potential as Luffy if not more (pirates like Law or Kidd).
It's not like defeating Mihawk would make every other opponent fodder, I've been clear I only think he's stronger than Shanks by a little and that I'm not ranking him above others like Blackbeard.
You're the only one talking about Big Mom, Kaido and Whitebeard but there's literally no reason why "It is however impossible for Mihawk". Well, the only reason is that you'll keep ignoring I'm talking about 1vs1 duels while you don't make a difference between that and actual crews confrontations.
So then Luffy's final fight won't be against a swordsman, that's all there is to it.
You're the one who keeps talking about the Yonkou and latching to that title. If you don't talk about them, neither will I. We could make a different topic about BB and the reasons there are to hype him but I prefer not mixing two topics.
Nobody is diminishing Shanks. Not I, at least. I love the character and he's a monster. Mihawk being a bit stronger than him in a duel doesn't take anything from him as a character. Contrary to it, Shanks isn't a guy who would worry or feel any shame from a fact like that.
Once again, Mihawk being stronger in a 1vs1 doesn't mean Mihawk could go and take him down in a real pirate battle with his crew involved. There IS a difference.
I didn't use that. I literally said in the post you're quoting that was not what I was using. It's pretty clear you don't really care to debate this topic and that you'll just slide out of whatever I say.
Why do you keep talking about WB and his title while at the same time ignoring Mihawk's title? You're talking more about the WSS title than I did, yet most of your posts are "they are yonkou so they're the strongest pirates and WB is the strongest man alive so somehow that means Mihawk can't be stronger than a Yonkou". It's a huge fallacy.
Also, stop talking about Roger's times as if that proved anything, Mihawk is also an undefeated pirate that was infamous when Roger was still alive, according to his vibre card.
Now you're not even trying to pretend you try to understand my points.
To discuss something doesn't mean to support it. We ARE discussing the topic of Mihawk being stronger. I did say in that same sentence that you're defending that he Mihawk isn't stronger.
And I'm not saying "MIHAWK IS STRONGER BECAUSE I LOVE THE CHARACTER". I'm giving actual reasons why I think so and you haven't changed my mind on those points.
Why would that be the case? You say Yonkous are all equal yet you are repeatedly making a point out of Whitbeard being the strongest man which would mean they aren't 100% equal. Whitebeard isn't a swordsman so of course he could be stronger than Mihawk, but that doesn't mean Mihawk can't be stronger than Shanks.
I really think I should just drop the conversation here. I'll quote again what you just said:
Your point is "WSS is just a title and I can diminiss it, despite the title literally being "The strongest something", because there's no way he's stronger than the Yonkou, which is also a title that implies that they're the strongest pirates".
Your only real point other than rambling about Whitebeard having been Roger's rival in the past revolves around the Yonkou title somehow being something that cannot be doubted. I haven't argued about titles have as much as you have.
You're the only one who has brought up that "he doesn't want to fight an armless Shanks". It was never my point. I disagree about it not aligning with the canon manga. It doesn't align with your headcannon that there's no way Mihawk could be stronger in a duel than Shanks. As I said back in my first post, of course I can't prove Mihawk would win; I can only argue the reasons why I think that he should be able to do so, but you also cannot prove that he can't without resorting to "impossible because Shanks is a Yonkou".
"They are called the 4 strongest pirates" and Mihawk is called the world strongest swordsman even by said 4 pirates.
You're still using a title (Yonkou) as a point.
I could go on again about how Mihawk being stronger in a 1vs1 doesn't make him "stronger as a pirate" but I HOPE you'd have gotten my point already. You can disagree with my point and we could agree to disagree, but you try to disprove the point and "make me realize that I'm wrong", which is impossible because there's nothing in the manga that really tells us I'm wrong here.
You can bring them up but they bring nothing to the table.
I brought Zoro to make a very important narrative point, you're bringing other characters to tell me "Well these could be stronger than Mihawk because they did amazing things in the past!" despite not even knowing what Mihawk has or hasn't done in the past. We lack information on him, that's all. All in due time.
Anyway, different Yonkous are different characters. Talking about how great Whitebeard was means nothing because we are talking about Shanks, and your point about "Shanks is said to be on his level" gets countered by "Mihawk is said to be the strongest swordsman". If you want to acknowledge what characters say, then I don't see why you hate the WSS title that much, since it's the same.
Neither have I questioned Shanks. So?
Well, now you know. I was answering to somebody who also started talking about Big Mom and I said that because I didn't want to discuss about her.
I only wanted to give my opinion on Mihawk, a character I have paid close attention to. I haven't paid that much attention to Big Mom nor really care about her at all, to be honest, so I don't talk about her because I don't have much to say.
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How the blackening works wasn't specified in great detail but it was said to be something that happens over time when a swordsman of great skill keeps using his sword in tandem with CoA and we know Oden didn't manage to do so despite reaching Laugh Tale together with Roger. So far only Ryuuma's and Mihawk's swords have undergone said transformation and Ryuuma was definitely one of the greatest swordsmen of his generation.
That wouldn't mean Ryuuma and Mihawk has the strongest CoA, but that they're the characters who somehow best use their CoA through their swords, or something along those lines. That doesn't mean ot me either that their CoA is automatically stronger than, for example, Kaido's, but I never planned to rank Mihawk and Kaido in the first place. For all we know Kaido, Whitebeard, Dragon and BB can all beat Mihawk, I don't have an opinion on that.
Whenever we see a character (Zoro or whoever else) turn his blade black onscreen for the first time we will see if it really is voluntary or not. It's not known 100% sure and if it, that's true. I also concede that it's not proven that Mihawk turned his own blade black but I won't doubt that until the manga makes me doubt it.
We don't know if Shanks and Mihawks duels were all draws or a combination of wins and defeats so we can't say much other than they're both skillful enough to be rivals of swordsmanship, but what I do think is that if Shanks would have beaten Mihawk, then Mihawk himself wouldn't have accepted being called something like the WSS without getting Shanks back for it, whether with 1 or 2 arms.
I'm willing to let go of the topic and discuss other characters. Tbh I didn't mean the Mihawk topic to escalate like it did.
WB couldn't beat him when they fought and vice versa. They were equals.
But if we want to get into semantics. Yes WB and Roger can beat one another as in they are capable of doing so extreme diff. When I say they were unable I meant when they fought then and when Kaido and Big Mom fought recently, the great title holders could not manage to win then. They tied. And they've never managed to win as far as we know thus far which I find hilarious.
Oda sure didn't make his title holders win so where does that leave us? Roger tied with Whitebeard and Big Mom with Kaido. You can be known as the strongest and have an equal you know. In fact, Roger and WB proved it nicely. No one was stronger than WB hence he was the strongest. Roger was his equal. Title saved.
I wonder if Mihawk was called WSS when him and Shanks used to duel and he was his rival. That would be a another example now wouldn't it?
That would be a another example now wouldn't it?