One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Nie Li]

Crocodile was introduced in the early stages of OP. CoA was probably not even in Oda's mind. We see Crocodile as one of the weakest villains because of how early he was defeated in the plot.
Then in Marineford it seem he got a power up. I think Oda decided to give Crocodile a fair power up.
I assume Crocodile knows haki CoA and CoC and he is no "ant" even by NW standards.

If he has properly learnt haki he may be closer to Doflamingo's level now.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 1, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 1, 2020 ---

This is basically what I was about to post.

Crocoboy was introduced way early in the series, before Haki was even a thing in Oda's mind. We see the same thing with Ace, who never portrayed any haki feats but was retroactively revealed to have had haki. It's highly likely that he will have haki when he pops back up in the series, which is what prompted my question.

The first mention of "haki" in the manga was right after Arabasta ended, in Mock Town, which was immediately followed by the first appearance of Mantra in Skypiea. Because of that, I belive haki was in Oda's mind when Crocodile appeared as an antagonist, and Oda probably just misgauged just how common haki would be later in his manga.

Crocodile can be retconned to have had haki back then, but his defeat against Luffy, even if it was only one of three fights and an extremely hard one, is still something that happened. I cannot imagine Doflamingo or Hancock losing to pre-G2 Luffy once even if they fought a hundred times, so Crocodile, as he was as a Shichibukai, was one of the weakest and an ant when compared to the NW.

At Marineford he stopped Mihawk and Doflamingo once, so he somehow had definitely been boosted when compared to the Arabasta arc. Matching Doflamingo's or Mihawk's base strength is impressive, but if Doflamingo and him had gone all out at each other on Marineford, if Crocodile was only matching him in base strength (the only thing he proved to be a match for him at all), he would have been murdered fast, so Crocodile wasn't that impressive in the war. The way he took Jozu's tackle also seem to imply he didn't have any CoO.

However, if Crocodile had haki on Marineford, or if he has achieved it during the timeskip, plus any other improvement that he may have gotten, will definitely place him above people like Moria and directly on high YC level.

 

[HereNThere]

The first mention of "haki" in the manga was right after Arabasta ended, in Mock Town, which was immediately followed by the first appearance of Mantra in Skypiea. Because of that, I belive haki was in Oda's mind when Crocodile appeared as an antagonist, and Oda probably just misgauged just how common haki would be later in his manga.

Hmm, I don't remember that? Do you know what chapter? With Mock Town I mean?

 

[PepeC]

Maybe Luffy used haki against Croc.

He was very close to death so maybe he was using it unconsciously.

That will explain that he could damage a logia on the last round (yeah because of blood but maybe it is not enough).

 

[goldb]

Hmm, I don't remember that? Do you know what chapter? With Mock Town I mean?

ch234 but the early official translations omit the word haki. BB mentions it when he finds out Luffy's bounty.

 

[Nie Li]

Hmm, I don't remember that? Do you know what chapter? With Mock Town I mean?

As goldb mentioned, it wasn't properly translated at the time because "haki" wasn't expected to be a thing but Blackbeard mentions it when he learns about Luffy's bounty of 100 million.

He says "30 million was a little too low for his haki".

Then when he meets Luffy again in Impel Down and gets punched, he says something like "Luffy's haki has grown stronger".

 

[The Prince of Darkness]

BB is the only one who uses "Haki level" to mesure someone's strength.
How can he know someone's Haki level in the first place?

 

[Nie Li]

BB is the only one who uses "Haki level" to mesure someone's strength.
How can he know someone's Haki level in the first place?

Rayleigh mentioned haki is something that every single living being has in the first place. It's possible that Luffy's latent haki could be felt by seasoned CoO users (we have a recent example of Ulti knowing Luffy had survived her attack because she could feel his haki) even if Luffy still didn't have the skills to turn his haki into proper CoA or CoO.

 

[HereNThere]

ch234 but the early official translations omit the word haki. BB mentions it when he finds out Luffy's bounty.

Ah okay, I thought I missed something. The official Jump app still hasn't fixed that. It's on the color pages though.

As goldb mentioned, it wasn't properly translated at the time because "haki" wasn't expected to be a thing but Blackbeard mentions it when he learns about Luffy's bounty of 100 million.

He says "30 million was a little too low for his haki".

Then when he meets Luffy again in Impel Down and gets punched, he says something like "Luffy's haki has grown stronger".

I remember Impel Down definitely and it made sense because Luffy just got from Amazon Lily.

So the concept may have been bouncing around in his head, but I wonder if he had a full idea of it? It seems weird that it took as long as it did to show up in the series. At least sprinkled bits and places before Garp pops back in. I'm also going to dig my heels in and say that Mantra wasn't originally apart of haki and it was folded in later.

 

[M3J]

If Crocodile knows at least CoA and CoO, I'd put him close to Katakuri's level, if not there. Didn't he manage to go to the New World before and even lose to Whitebeard?

 

[LadyVados]

Zunisha doesn't have Haki.

Jack and BB may not either.

 

[goldb]

If Crocodile knows at least CoA and CoO, I'd put him close to Katakuri's level, if not there. Didn't he manage to go to the New World before and even lose to Whitebeard?

Not if he himself hasn't gotten physically stronger. Any New World captain or fighter worth his salt knows haki. So that alone won't cut. Just look at how many of Big Mom's children could use haki and rokushiki abilities, and those weren't event the Sweet Commanders.

He did lose to Whiteboard it seems in the past, but that's not surprising whatsoever.

Zunisha doesn't have Haki.

Jack and BB may not either.

Why would Zunesha need haki?

Jack and Blackbeard most are shown to have it but it'd be surprising if they didn't. More Jack than Blackbeard though. His yami yami no mi negates all devil fruit abilities, he's physically strong and has high endurance but now he also possesses one of the most offensive and powerful devil fruits.

He was aware of Luffy's haki, so likely he has CoO at least.

 

[LadyVados]

Zunesha is a strong fighter who doesn't have Haki.

 

[Nie Li]

If Crocodile knows at least CoA and CoO, I'd put him close to Katakuri's level, if not there. Didn't he manage to go to the New World before and even lose to Whitebeard?

The answer to your question is yes, but I fail to see how that correlates to being at Katakuri's level.

Anyone, even Caribou, can go to the NW, and anyone can get his ass kicked by a Yonko. It might not have even been by Whitebeard's hand that he was defeated.

I remember Impel Down definitely and it made sense because Luffy just got from Amazon Lily.

So the concept may have been bouncing around in his head, but I wonder if he had a full idea of it? It seems weird that it took as long as it did to show up in the series. At least sprinkled bits and places before Garp pops back in. I'm also going to dig my heels in and say that Mantra wasn't originally apart of haki and it was folded in later.

What you say about Mantra may be true, but we will never know. I also agree that the concept or haki has changed over the time before it was properly introduced by Rayleigh, mostly because characters like Crocodile should have shown proper CoA now that we know just how common it is in the NW, and also because there was not a single black armament haki before the timeskip.

Before Arabasta there really was nothing about haki, but since Arabasta I believe we have gotten a lot of things on it. Perhaps every "bit" of information on haki is years apart but that's mostly on how long the arcs are.

Long Ring Long Land and Thriller Bark are the only arcs after Arabasta in which I think haki made no appearances, and LRLL is a very short arc in which other than Aokiji (that didn't need haki against them) only the weak Foxy Pirates appeared. In Thriller Bark, it can also be considered weird that Moria had no haki, but him having no haki and being overall pretty weak without his stolen shadows is precisely why Doflamingo tried to murder him on the WG's orders.

The first appearance of haki, other than that Shanks scene on Chapter 1, is in Arabasta. Some people argue that Zoro on Arabasta used CoA, but what I believe more than that is that he showed slight CoO when he started talking about "hearing Mr.1's steel breath. Hearing his voice despite Mr.1 not moving his lips". As I said in my other post, that was immediately followed by BB mentioning haki at the start of the next arc and then by mantra.

Zunisha doesn't have Haki.

Jack and BB may not either.

Zunisha is way bigger than Oars, so he can afford not having haki. Jack and BB have haki for sure (Jack because he's a top-tier YC and BB because he couldn't have felt Luffy's haki if he didn't have any haki himself).

 

[Monox D. I-Fly]

BB is the only one who uses "Haki level" to mesure someone's strength.
How can he know someone's Haki level in the first place?

Speaking of power measurement, Kumadori can measure someone's Douriki, right? Can he measure someone's Haki?

 

[M3J]

Not if he himself hasn't gotten physically stronger. Any New World captain or fighter worth his salt knows haki. So that alone won't cut. Just look at how many of Big Mom's children could use haki and rokushiki abilities, and those weren't event the Sweet Commanders.

He did lose to Whiteboard it seems in the past, but that's not surprising whatsoever.

But I'm also including his fruit's powers, like being able to sink opponents, dehydrate them, and whatnot. And if he can imbue haki onto sand and make weapons or walls, then he's fearsome.

The answer to your question is yes, but I fail to see how that correlates to being at Katakuri's level.

Anyone, even Caribou, can go to the NW, and anyone can get his ass kicked by a Yonko. It might not have even been by Whitebeard's hand that he was defeated.

Hard to hurt Croc, and his fruit gives him powers like being able to dehydrate stuff. if he can get past Katakuri's Future Sight, then he'd have a good chance of winning. Caribou sucks at fighting, it seems, while Crocodile was actually good and had abilities that'd help.

Didn't Crocodile tell Whitebeard that he wasn't the same man that beat Crocodile long time ago? I forgot if this was before or after Ace's death.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Not if he himself hasn't gotten physically stronger. Any New World captain or fighter worth his salt knows haki. So that alone won't cut. Just look at how many of Big Mom's children could use haki and rokushiki abilities, and those weren't event the Sweet Commanders.

He did lose to Whiteboard it seems in the past, but that's not surprising whatsoever.



Why would Zunesha need haki?

Jack and Blackbeard most are shown to have it but it'd be surprising if they didn't. More Jack than Blackbeard though. His yami yami no mi negates all devil fruit abilities, he's physically strong and has high endurance but now he also possesses one of the most offensive and powerful devil fruits.

He was aware of Luffy's haki, so likely he has CoO at least.

at the same he clashed with mihawk , jozu and doffy, guys who would have sent luffy flying in the war, i think crocodile is actually very very tough physically

 

[LadyVados]

If Kaido really is a dragon then honestly Ryuma has the best feat in the verse and may be Top 1.

 

[XXGenesis]

Haki Mastery plus immense strength is what all of the top tiers have. W/O other characters will fall short...At the commander lv or lower.

Everybody is fascinated with the top tiers.
It’s the middle tier that I enjoy the best. That 150-600k range. It’s interesting the power gaps of Pirates in those ranges.

 

[LadyVados]

Haki Mastery plus immense strength is what all of the top tiers have. W/O other characters will fall short...At the commander lv or lower.

Everybody is fascinated with the top tiers.
It’s the middle tier that I enjoy the best. That 150-600k range. It’s interesting the power gaps of Pirates in those ranges.

That includes everyone from EL Luffy to Ace and Snack

 

[goldb]

Speaking of power measurement, Kumadori can measure someone's Douriki, right? Can he measure someone's Haki?

Not sure; but I'd say not in my opinion. Seems like level of haki can be felt somewhat by other users who have CoO. Blackbeard commented on Luffy's haki despite the fact that they had never fought. Luffy also noted that Fujitora was strong even before knowing he was an admiral or facing him in combat.

If Kumadori can measure someone's haki, it'll be he himself has CoO but I don't think we'd get measurements like we did for CP9's doriki.

But I'm also including his fruit's powers, like being able to sink opponents, dehydrate them, and whatnot. And if he can imbue haki onto sand and make weapons or walls, then he's fearsome.

Being a logia certainly separates him from your average captain or NW pirate, even those that have haki but again that alone won't put him on levels with your commanders or seasoned fighters. As @XXGenesis said, physical strength and mastery of haki is what the top fighters seem to have; I'd also add devil fruit abilities (barring Shanks, Mihawk and some others).

at the same he clashed with mihawk , jozu and doffy, guys who would have sent luffy flying in the war, i think crocodile is actually very very tough physically

He's not slouch, yes but I wouldn't go as far as to use those encounters as any reflection to his strength. Against Jozu he was hit once and was bleeding, Doflamingo stopped him with his foot and Mihawk parried him once, if I'm correct.

If Kaido really is a dragon then honestly Ryuma has the best feat in the verse and may be Top 1.

I strongly disagree but elaborate how you've come to that conclusion, please.

We know nothing about the dragon he slayed but we've seen feats of strength and power that are arguably more impressive. Namely Whitebeard tilting a whole island and causing massive change in weather by simply grabbing air.

Zoro also slayed a dragon. if that was a measure of strength, he'd also be considered a "top 1" but we know that he isn't.