One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[LadyVados]

I strongly disagree but elaborate how you've come to that conclusion, please.

We know nothing about the dragon he slayed but we've seen feats of strength and power that are arguably more impressive. Namely Whitebeard tilting a whole island and causing massive change in weather by simply grabbing air.

Zoro also slayed a dragon. if that was a measure of strength, he'd also be considered a "top 1" but we know that he isn't.

If Kaido is actually a dragon that the dragon Ryuma one-shotted might have been as strong or stronger than Kaido. Maybe that was Kaido’s dad or mom. Casually oneshotting a Kaido tier fighter when you’re pre-prime is an insane feat.

 

[M3J]

Being a logia certainly separates him from your average captain or NW pirate, even those that have haki but again that alone won't put him on levels with your commanders or seasoned fighters. As @XXGenesis said, physical strength and mastery of haki is what the top fighters seem to have; I'd also add devil fruit abilities (barring Shanks, Mihawk and some others).

But I'm mentioning his specific fruit, suna suna no mi, power. If Crocodile is a pretty good fighter without his fruit, then he's extremely dangerous with it since it's dangerous in so many ways.

 

[Fox666]

If Kumadori can measure someone's haki, it'll be he himself has CoO but I don't think we'd get measurements like we did for CP9's doriki.

Kumadori was measuring the strength which other CP9 members hit him.

But I'm mentioning his specific fruit, suna suna no mi, power. If Crocodile is a pretty good fighter without his fruit, then he's extremely dangerous with it since it's dangerous in so many ways.

Crocodile clashed against Doflamingo and Mihawk during the Marineford war without using his Devil Fruit.

 

[Nie Li]

Just as random trivia: the measuring douriki's thing was explained to be a rokushiki technique.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

If Kaido really is a dragon then honestly Ryuma has the best feat in the verse and may be Top 1.

I strongly disagree but elaborate how you've come to that conclusion, please.

We know nothing about the dragon he slayed but we've seen feats of strength and power that are arguably more impressive. Namely Whitebeard tilting a whole island and causing massive change in weather by simply grabbing air.

Zoro also slayed a dragon. if that was a measure of strength, he'd also be considered a "top 1" but we know that he isn't.

If Kaido is actually a dragon that the dragon Ryuma one-shotted might have been as strong or stronger than Kaido. Maybe that was Kaido’s dad or mom. Casually oneshotting a Kaido tier fighter when you’re pre-prime is an insane feat.

zoro one shotted a dragon tho, might have been artificial, but the point being, dragons are like humans, with great varying strengths
big mum and oden are humans and were born monstrously strong,but then ussop and nami are also humans

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 2, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 2, 2020 ---

If Kaido is actually a dragon that the dragon Ryuma one-shotted might have been as strong or stronger than Kaido. Maybe that was Kaido’s dad or mom. Casually oneshotting a Kaido tier fighter when you’re pre-prime is an insane feat.

that's a lot of assumptions and head cannon you used to connect em, ryuma was a beast but we have no idea on dragons or howthey compare to kaido

Kumadori was measuring the strength which other CP9 members hit him.


Crocodile clashed against Doflamingo and Mihawk during the Marineford war without using his Devil Fruit.

Not sure; but I'd say not in my opinion. Seems like level of haki can be felt somewhat by other users who have CoO. Blackbeard commented on Luffy's haki despite the fact that they had never fought. Luffy also noted that Fujitora was strong even before knowing he was an admiral or facing him in combat.

If Kumadori can measure someone's haki, it'll be he himself has CoO but I don't think we'd get measurements like we did for CP9's doriki.



Being a logia certainly separates him from your average captain or NW pirate, even those that have haki but again that alone won't put him on levels with your commanders or seasoned fighters. As @XXGenesis said, physical strength and mastery of haki is what the top fighters seem to have; I'd also add devil fruit abilities (barring Shanks, Mihawk and some others).



He's not slouch, yes but I wouldn't go as far as to use those encounters as any reflection to his strength. Against Jozu he was hit once and was bleeding, Doflamingo stopped him with his foot and Mihawk parried him once, if I'm correct.



I strongly disagree but elaborate how you've come to that conclusion, please.

We know nothing about the dragon he slayed but we've seen feats of strength and power that are arguably more impressive. Namely Whitebeard tilting a whole island and causing massive change in weather by simply grabbing air.

Zoro also slayed a dragon. if that was a measure of strength, he'd also be considered a "top 1" but we know that he isn't.

jozu strong as shit , crocodile tanked a hit almost as well as aokiji

 

[goldb]

But I'm mentioning his specific fruit, suna suna no mi, power. If Crocodile is a pretty good fighter without his fruit, then he's extremely dangerous with it since it's dangerous in so many ways.

I don't think we saw him fight to much extent without using his fruit; looks like he's...handy with that hook though. I still maintain that he'd have to grow both physically and in terms of haki to be a top tier combattant in the NW. I do get where you're coming from though; as having a logia devil fruit( that he looks to have mastered) gives him an advantage against most.

Kumadori was measuring the strength which other CP9 members hit him.

Oh yeah, I'm aware. I'm talking about quantifiable numbers like we got for CP9's douriki.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 2, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 2, 2020 ---

jozu strong as shit , crocodile tanked a hit almost as well as aokiji

That is a fair point and good use of examples. I'll give you that .

 

[LadyVados]

Unpopular opinion, Boa’s bounty will be 2 billion+

 

[Nie Li]

Unpopular opinion, Boa’s bounty will be 2 billion+

EOS or next time we see her?

Her pre-Shichibukai bounty was only 80 million, though that seems extremely low for someone of her calliber, jumping from that to 2 billion is too much.

 

[HereNThere]

Before Arabasta there really was nothing about haki, but since Arabasta I believe we have gotten a lot of things on it. Perhaps every "bit" of information on haki is years apart but that's mostly on how long the arcs are.

Long Ring Long Land and Thriller Bark are the only arcs after Arabasta in which I think haki made no appearances, and LRLL is a very short arc in which other than Aokiji (that didn't need haki against them) only the weak Foxy Pirates appeared. In Thriller Bark, it can also be considered weird that Moria had no haki, but him having no haki and being overall pretty weak without his stolen shadows is precisely why Doflamingo tried to murder him on the WG's orders.

The first appearance of haki, other than that Shanks scene on Chapter 1, is in Arabasta. Some people argue that Zoro on Arabasta used CoA, but what I believe more than that is that he showed slight CoO when he started talking about "hearing Mr.1's steel breath. Hearing his voice despite Mr.1 not moving his lips". As I said in my other post, that was immediately followed by BB mentioning haki at the start of the next arc and then by mantra.

The one thing that keeps me from believing he had an idea on it, aside from Mantra, is Blackbeard vs Ace. Aside from the two of them being New World veterans and not demonstrating Haki during their fight, there was the fact that the big reveal in that fight was Blackbeard having the Yami Yami no Mi. Ace and Blackbeard spoke like he had never been touched by anyone up until that point, when we know that isn't true. It's doubly weird that Ace spoke like this when we had just seen Garp's use of "Fist of Love" a few chapters back.

The headcanon I'd always went with was that Moriah's will was so broken that his haki had been rendered inoperable, but that doesn't seem to be a thing. Especially when he regained a bit of ambition to build his army.

I view Shanks feat and Zoro's feat the same as Mantra. Just small things that Oda managed to fold under the haki umbrella that fit nicely after it was fully established. I think Zoro's feat is an instance of CoA and CoO in hindsight, mainly because Zoro's teacher's explanation matches the same one Hyogoro gave to Luffy about the true application of Flowing Haki. Oda quietly dropped the whole breath thing as haki became more prominent and seems to have pushed repurposed portions of it to the whole voice of all things concept.

But yeah, there's no telling when Oda solidified his thoughts on haki. I'm thinking he had more of an inkling of where he wanted to go with it sometime during Ennis Lobby, but didn't fully have a strong idea until Sabaody, which is where he went full speed ahead on the concept from the very start of the arc.

 

[LadyVados]

EOS or next time we see her?

Her pre-Shichibukai bounty was only 80 million, though that seems extremely low for someone of her calliber, jumping from that to 2 billion is too much.

Next time we see her

 

[Nie Li]

The one thing that keeps me from believing he had an idea on it, aside from Mantra, is Blackbeard vs Ace. Aside from the two of them being New World veterans and not demonstrating Haki during their fight, there was the fact that the big reveal in that fight was Blackbeard having the Yami Yami no Mi. Ace and Blackbeard spoke like he had never been touched by anyone up until that point, when we know that isn't true. It's doubly weird that Ace spoke like this when we had just seen Garp's use of "Fist of Love" a few chapters back.

The headcanon I'd always went with was that Moriah's will was so broken that his haki had been rendered inoperable, but that doesn't seem to be a thing. Especially when he regained a bit of ambition to build his army.

I view Shanks feat and Zoro's feat the same as Mantra. Just small things that Oda managed to fold under the haki umbrella that fit nicely after it was fully established. I think Zoro's feat is an instance of CoA and CoO in hindsight, mainly because Zoro's teacher's explanation matches the same one Hyogoro gave to Luffy about the true application of Flowing Haki. Oda quietly dropped the whole breath thing as haki became more prominent and seems to have pushed repurposed portions of it to the whole voice of all things concept.

But yeah, there's no telling when Oda solidified his thoughts on haki. I'm thinking he had more of an inkling of where he wanted to go with it sometime during Ennis Lobby, but didn't fully have a strong idea until Sabaody, which is where he went full speed ahead on the concept from the very start of the arc.

I agree that Oda probably built the concept of haki slowly over the time, and I also agree that Ace's and Teach's conversation is plain weird, but I have a way of countering that particular point.

This is Smoker the first time we see him.

This is Smoker at the exact same time Ace vs Blackbeard took place.

Kairouseki weapons are rarer than haki, so it's unlikely he faced someone with one. He also never faced BB, so that leaves two options:

- He faced someone strong enough to disarm him and use jus jutte against him yet he somehow won in the end.
- He fought against a haki user and won despite being wounded, which is likely since people like Luffy and Sanji had already beaten CoO users at the time.


I believe haki may have been used in Ace vs BB but simply not colored black, since that's something that Oda never thought of doing before the timeskip, so I offer two alternative interpretations for Blackbeard words:

- BB's fruit acts like kairouseki and actually weakens the DF user instead of only stopping his fruit from working, effectively bypassing CoA's defenses.
- Ace isn't used to defending himself with CoA, but rather with CoO, like Katakuri and Akainu do (when Akainu was attacked by Vista and Marco). If that's how he's used to fighting, using slight futuresight to mold his firy body to barely let the attacks through. However that failed against Blackbeard because his blackhole powers force direct contact and then he instantly nullifies his power, preventing Ace from dodging in a way that would otherwise work against CoA users.

It's also possible that both possibilities are true, and of course it's also possible that none of that is true and that I'm just making excuses for Oda.

To sum it up: BB's words are weird, yet Oda showed right at the same time that even in Paradise there was "another method" to hurt logia users through Smoker.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 3, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 3, 2020 ---

Next time we see her

The only way I can see her bounty jump that much is if she really utterly humiliates the marines that went after her, and that's not impossible.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Unpopular opinion, Boa’s bounty will be 2 billion+

That seems less like an opinion and more of a fact

 

[Monox D. I-Fly]

Just as random trivia: the measuring douriki's thing was explained to be a rokushiki technique.

It was? I thought it was a Seimei Kikan technique...

 

[Nie Li]

It was? I thought it was a Seimei Kikan technique...

According to the vivre cards, yes, it was a rokushiki thing.

Only Lucci and Kumadori showed Seimei Kikan techniques.

 

[M3J]

Kumadori was measuring the strength which other CP9 members hit him.


Crocodile clashed against Doflamingo and Mihawk during the Marineford war without using his Devil Fruit.

oh right, and he didn't seem to have much trouble either. Dude was also willing to piss off enemies like Akainu and Whitebeard and still survived.

I don't think we saw him fight to much extent without using his fruit; looks like he's...handy with that hook though. I still maintain that he'd have to grow both physically and in terms of haki to be a top tier combattant in the NW. I do get where you're coming from though; as having a logia devil fruit( that he looks to have mastered) gives him an advantage against most.

As Fox pointed out, Crocodile did decently in the war without using his devil fruit at times, so it does show he's competent without his fruit? I'm also willing to bet that if he's reintroduced, he'll be on a much higher tier that Luffy back then would have lost to him, and I also wouldn't mind that Crocodile being portrayed as strong enough to give current Luffy a run for his money. Plus, Crocodile saying he wants to go back to the New World IMO says he's perfectly capable of taking care of himself.

I do wonder how he'll be portrayed now, power and ability-wise. I think we concluded that Crocodile probably has Awakening as he was able to manipulate his environment as well.

 

[Fox666]

I do wonder how he'll be portrayed now, power and ability-wise. I think we concluded that Crocodile probably has Awakening as he was able to manipulate his environment as well.

Crocodile is capable of turning everything he touches with his hand into sand... that seems unusual for a Logia, but very much like what Katakuri did.

 

[HereNThere]

Kairouseki weapons are rarer than haki, so it's unlikely he faced someone with one. He also never faced BB, so that leaves two options:

- He faced someone strong enough to disarm him and use jus jutte against him yet he somehow won in the end.
- He fought against a haki user and won despite being wounded, which is likely since people like Luffy and Sanji had already beaten CoO users at the time.

I'm going to go the third way with this this one. Smoker had already established his weakness with high winds and storms during Logue town. While Paradise isn't as bad as the New World, there are still instances of extreme weather and I imagine that Smoker had the double whammy of weather and someone who's decently skilled who managed to knick him before Smoker came out on top.

I believe haki may have been used in Ace vs BB but simply not colored black, since that's something that Oda never thought of doing before the timeskip, so I offer two alternative interpretations for Blackbeard words:

- BB's fruit acts like kairouseki and actually weakens the DF user instead of only stopping his fruit from working, effectively bypassing CoA's defenses.
- Ace isn't used to defending himself with CoA, but rather with CoO, like Katakuri and Akainu do (when Akainu was attacked by Vista and Marco). If that's how he's used to fighting, using slight futuresight to mold his firy body to barely let the attacks through. However that failed against Blackbeard because his blackhole powers force direct contact and then he instantly nullifies his power, preventing Ace from dodging in a way that would otherwise work against CoA users.

On your first point, I don't think that's the case. I would think Ace would've noted a decrease in physical strength had it happened. The Darkness fruit's main thing seems to be completely robbing one of their fruit abilities. However, as we see more from Blackbeard, we'll get an answer to this one

Your second point is also possible and up in the air. But I'd say that, even if Ace didn't specialize in CoA, it's still CoA abd should be mandatory to use in a fight. BB's fruit is functionally unique, but at the end of the day, it's still a DF and CoA should be decently effective on it. And I doubt Ace's CoA was that inadequate given his experience in the New World. Plus, BB's nullification only worked when touched. If CoO was fully established, I would imagine that Ace would've at least tried to Logia out of the way before finally being sucked in and touched. But instead, every time it happened on screen, he was surprised. And the one time he did counter, it was at the very last minute.

 

[M3J]

Crocodile is capable of turning everything he touches with his hand into sand... that seems unusual for a Logia, but very much like what Katakuri did.

Yeah, skills like that are why I think he's in a much higher tier than we think

 

[Fox666]

Unpopular opinion, Boa’s bounty will be 2 billion+

But why?

After Jinbe and Law resigned, theirs bounties increased to 438 and 500 million respectively.

Why would another Shichibukai be in a different range?

The one thing that keeps me from believing he had an idea on it, aside from Mantra, is Blackbeard vs Ace. Aside from the two of them being New World veterans and not demonstrating Haki during their fight, there was the fact that the big reveal in that fight was Blackbeard having the Yami Yami no Mi. Ace and Blackbeard spoke like he had never been touched by anyone up until that point, when we know that isn't true. It's doubly weird that Ace spoke like this when we had just seen Garp's use of "Fist of Love" a few chapters back.

The headcanon I'd always went with was that Moriah's will was so broken that his haki had been rendered inoperable, but that doesn't seem to be a thing. Especially when he regained a bit of ambition to build his army.

I view Shanks feat and Zoro's feat the same as Mantra. Just small things that Oda managed to fold under the haki umbrella that fit nicely after it was fully established. I think Zoro's feat is an instance of CoA and CoO in hindsight, mainly because Zoro's teacher's explanation matches the same one Hyogoro gave to Luffy about the true application of Flowing Haki. Oda quietly dropped the whole breath thing as haki became more prominent and seems to have pushed repurposed portions of it to the whole voice of all things concept.

But yeah, there's no telling when Oda solidified his thoughts on haki. I'm thinking he had more of an inkling of where he wanted to go with it sometime during Ennis Lobby, but didn't fully have a strong idea until Sabaody, which is where he went full speed ahead on the concept from the very start of the arc.

I think it's obvious now that Crocodile or Moriah could use Haki all along.

Crocodile never needed it to fight Luffy in the first place. In Moriah's case, he was too weak to use Haki on his Shadow Asgard form.

Regarding Blackbeard fighting Ace, it may have not been that simple using Haki to hurt Ace. Marco and Vista hit Akainu with Haki, yet it didn't hurt him:

I suppose that in order to hit a Logia user, you also have to surpass his Haki, and Blackbeard may not an advantage over Ace in that aspect.

Also it's clear that Blackbeard fruit works differently from Haki. When a Logia is hit with Haki, they're still in their elemental form:

But Ace appeared to no longer be a Devil Fruit user when Blackbeard grabbed him:

This sets Blackbeard fruit apart from even water or Seastone, since these cannot disable abilities that permanently change the user's body.

We also know Blackbeard can stop any ability from working, something which Haki cannot:

Even Bartolomeo's barrier would be useless against Blackbeard.

 

[Ramen]

But why?

After Jinbe and Law resigned, theirs bounties increased to 438 and 500 million respectively.

Why would another Shichibukai be in a different range?


I think it's obvious now that Crocodile or Moriah could use Haki all along.

Crocodile never needed it to fight Luffy in the first place. In Moriah's case, he was too weak to use Haki on his Shadow Asgard form.

Regarding Blackbeard fighting Ace, it may have not been that simple using Haki to hurt Ace. Marco and Vista hit Akainu with Haki, yet it didn't hurt him:

I suppose that in order to hit a Logia user, you also have to surpass his Haki, and Blackbeard may not an advantage over Ace in that aspect.

Also it's clear that Blackbeard fruit works differently from Haki. When a Logia is hit with Haki, they're still in their elemental form:

But Ace appeared to no longer be a Devil Fruit user when Blackbeard grabbed him:

This sets Blackbeard fruit apart from even water or Seastone, since these cannot disable abilities that permanently change the user's body.

We also know Blackbeard can stop any ability from working, something which Haki cannot:

Even Bartolomeo's barrier would be useless against Blackbeard.

That's why his DF is the ultimate ability.