One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[LadyVados]

Even then, that databook only covers the early arcs. Most fans agree that before Luffy learned Gear 2, he was very close to Zoro in strength.

My reasoning is if they were equal back in the early days they will probably be equal again at the end.

Also Luffy got G2 and Zoro got Asura though he hasn’t used it nearly as frequently.

 

[Fox666]

My reasoning is if they were equal back in the early days they will probably be equal again at the end.

Also Luffy got G2 and Zoro got Asura though he hasn’t used it nearly as frequently.

Nothing indicates that Asura is comparable to Gear 2. There was a lot of hype for Gear 2 in the manga, Asura is just some new finishing move.

Also, Rob Lucci has 4,000 Dourki compared to Kaku's 2,200. Doesn't that indicates that the difference between Luffy and the others grew after he learned Gear 2?

 

[LadyVados]

Nothing indicates that Asura is comparable to Gear 2. There was a lot of hype for Gear 2 in the manga, Asura is just some new finishing move.

Also, Rob Lucci has 4,000 Dourki compared to Kaku's 2,200. Doesn't that indicates that the difference between Luffy and the others grew after he learned Gear 2?

1. Zoro and Sanji both had much easier fights than Luffy
2. If Luffy wasn't made of Rubber and didn't have blunt force immunity, he would have lost to Lucci.

 

[Fox666]

1. Zoro and Sanji both had much easier fights than Luffy

But almost twice as strong as their opponents?

Jabra said he never heard of a Dourki level of 4,000 so even his hybrid form shouldn't be that strong.

Since Luffy was perfectly matched with Rob Lucci before he used Gear 2, doesn't that means that Luffy could defeat Jabra without Gear 2?

That would support the idea that Luffy got a step ahead of Zoro and Sanji with Gear 2.

2. If Luffy wasn't made of Rubber and didn't have blunt force immunity, he would have lost to Lucci.

Lucci also had unique abilities with his own Devil Fruit and Rokushiki.

 

[LadyVados]

Lucci also had unique abilities with his own Devil Fruit and Rokushiki.

Ok... how does that invalidate my statement

 

[HereNThere]

If Luffy wasn't made of Rubber and didn't have blunt force immunity, he would have lost to Lucci.

That's a door that doesn't need to be opened because that opens other characters up to the same criticism.

 

[LadyVados]

But almost twice as strong as their opponents?

Sanji vs Jabra was basically a mid-diff

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 12, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 12, 2020 ---

That's a door that doesn't need to be opened because that opens other characters up to the same criticism.

 

[HereNThere]

Okay? Still doesn't change what I said.

And, in that case, it doesn't matter anyway since, as soon as Lucci realized that his regular Shigan wouldn't work, he used one in his Zoan form which immediately circumvented Luffy's immunity to the regular one. Throughout their entire final fight, Luffy was still susceptible to Shigan. His immunity only played a role when Lucci used the Hollow Tree Tekkai technique.

 

[Nie Li]

But almost twice as strong as their opponents?

Jabra said he never heard of a Dourki level of 4,000 so even his hybrid form shouldn't be that strong.

Since Luffy was perfectly matched with Rob Lucci before he used Gear 2, doesn't that means that Luffy could defeat Jabra without Gear 2?

That would support the idea that Luffy got a step ahead of Zoro and Sanji with Gear 2.


Lucci also had unique abilities with his own Devil Fruit and Rokushiki.

The douriki argument is flawed by itself. Dourikis refer to physical strength, to pure athletism but no to fighting ability. It doesn't take into account anything else.

Lucci was much stronger than Kaku and Jabra, that much is true, since he was also not only much athletic than them, he was also the only character so far in the series to have fully mastered the rokushiki, but Luffy without Gear 2 was not on Lucci's level, at all, as a fighter.

True, Luffy and Lucci punched at the same time and they were both sent flying, so it is safe to say Luffy had around 4000 douriki as well, but that doesn't amount to anything. Luffy was dominated through the first part of the half and failed at landing any significant blows, while he got hit by a couple rankyakus and also a Shigan Oren.

Spoiler: Shigan Oren

No matter how physically strong Luffy was, if any other character of his tier had been in that same fight, they would be dead as if shot by a machinegun. His fruit countered Lucci just as badly as it countered Enel, because Lucci couldn't pierce through the rubber with otherwise sure-kill attacks that flawlessly landed on him.

Base Luffy was inferior to Lucci until the end in that arc, and without Gear 2 it would have been a repeat of what had happened before on Water 7, but bloodier.

It is, however, also true that Gear 2 immediately boosted Luffy beyond Base Lucci and even beyond Hybrid Lucci, though he once again struggled when Lucci went "Kami-e Form". So yes, it is safe to say that Gear 2 would have demolished Kaku and Jabra just fine: Gear 2 Luffy, at least at that point, was undoubtedly superior to Zoro and Sanji.

However, it is also true that Zoro had an easy fight against Kaku and that he went overkill with Asura, taking him down with a single technique that literally evaporated Kaku's strongest air blade. So how strong exactly was Gear 2 Luffy to Asura Zoro? The argument here is that Gear 2 Luffy would demolish Kaku, but so did Asura Zoro, so a point cannot be made about Gear 2 Luffy being definitely many times superior to Asura Zoro, back at that arc.

Base Luffy had physical strength superior to Kaku, yes, that's very likely, but it is extremely likely that so did Zoro. Luffy was dominated by Lucci despite matching his punch, so it cannot be proven that he wouldn't have trouble dealing with Kaku's yontoryu. Would he win? Probably, easily in base? Doubtful, his rubber properties would not counter Kaku's main techniques the way they conquered Lucci.

And let's also keep in mind that Luffy chose to go Gear 2 on Blueno.





I'm not arguing that Zoro or Sanji = Luffy nor that they are stronger than him, Luffy is the strongest, but this argument on dourikis and CP9s is not the way to go about it.

 

[LadyVados]

On reddit I once tried to make an argument based on Dorikis for something and I got literally dozens of replies saying Doriki was just a gag and shouldn’t be taken seriously.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 12, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 12, 2020 ---

Okay? Still doesn't change what I said.

And, in that case, it doesn't matter anyway since, as soon as Lucci realized that his regular Shigan wouldn't work, he used one in his Zoan form which immediately circumvented Luffy's immunity to the regular one. Throughout their entire final fight, Luffy was still susceptible to Shigan. His immunity only played a role when Lucci used the Hollow Tree Tekkai technique.

I thought I replied to this but it seems my post got deleted.

The fact of the matter is that Lucci was at a massive disadvantage because he couldn’t use most of his attacks. And I bet Luffy was taking way less damage from the attacks Lucci could use.

 

[HereNThere]

The fact of the matter is that Lucci was at a massive disadvantage because he couldn’t use most of his attacks. And I bet Luffy was taking way less damage from the attacks Lucci could use.

He was not at a massive disadvantage. When he got serious, his attacks bypassed all of Luffy's natural defenses that his fruit gives. He was still capable of using all forms of the Rokushiki techniques against Luffy.

 

[LadyVados]

He was not at a massive disadvantage. When he got serious, his attacks bypassed all of Luffy's natural defenses that his fruit gives. He was still capable of using all forms of the Rokushiki techniques against Luffy.

Luffy barely got by him as it is, any sort of an advantage would have probably resulted in his loss.

 

[XXGenesis]

1. Zoro and Sanji both had much easier fights than Luffy
2. If Luffy wasn't made of Rubber and didn't have blunt force immunity, he would have lost to Lucci.

I don’t understand this comment.
Luffy is a rubber man. That’s his DF power. What’s the issue? Lol

Everybody Luffy has ever fought has to get pass the fact that he’s a Rubber man; It’s the reason why kicking Luffy’s ass is so hard;

 

[HereNThere]

Luffy barely got by him as it is, any sort of an advantage would have probably resulted in his loss.

Again, he was still not at a disadvantage. Enel was at a massive disadvantage. Lucci just needed to put forth a bit more effort to bypass Luffy's defenses, which basically just amounted to him using his own fruit.

 

[M3J]

Sanji vs Jabra was basically a mid-diff

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 12, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 12, 2020 ---

I mean, you can argue that most characters wouldn't be as good or dangerous as they were/are without their fruit. Luffy's biggest advantage here, after his willpower, is his devil fruit. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as people don't overhype him.

 

[Shinigami769]

Sanji vs Jabra was basically a mid-diff

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 12, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 12, 2020 ---

yeah but you can take that kind of argument and use it against Zoro that he would have been screwed against the rust guy in Ennies lobby just as much. That arc was set up for Lucci to get the upper hand on Luffy in water 7 for Luffy to rise above him later.

At the time of Ennies lobby with Second gear Luffy went way beyond the power of his crew at that time. He was probably twice as strong as Zoro at the time and Zoro was stronger then Sanji at the time. Sanji was beaten by Kalifa. who lost to Nami. Monet almost trapped Luffy while Zoro utterly wrecked her. Sugar almost got Luffy and Law but got trolled by Usopp. ect. The way the fights in one piece go down is not always the strongest that wins. it is who matches up better against what.

Yeah Luffy being made of rubber is part of his strengths. But it's the same thing for any fruit user that has a benefit from it. Like the Admirals logia powers they wouldn't be as strong without them. Nor would they be as hard to kill or defeat. When you go after the benefits of the devil fruits on one character as mentioned you have to go after all of them or it's just a bias argument. If Luffy wasn't rubber he would have lost to Lucci, or would have lost to Eneru.
If Akainu didn't have magma logia powers surely he would have died to Whitebeard. If Blackbeard didn't have the dark dark fruit surely Ace would have killed him. ect. Those type of arguments can go on endlessly in the what ifs. It can be argued that Lucci was even stronger then Luffy during the Ennies lobby arc. But Luffy still beat him by force of will and refusal to go down to him no matter the cost. Zoro was stronger then Kaku as he never heavily struggled in that fight once usopp was no longer cuffed to his arm. But he would have lost to Lucci because he didn't match up with him at all then and Luffy knew that. Which is why he set his sights on him from the start he knew nobody else could have beat him.

The what if scenario's are irrelevant because it is about what happened not the what could have happened possibilities.

 

[LadyVados]

I don’t understand this comment.
Luffy is a rubber man. That’s his DF power. What’s the issue? Lol

Everybody Luffy has ever fought has to get pass the fact that he’s a Rubber man; It’s the reason why kicking Luffy’s ass is so hard;

@M3J @Shinigami769 @eefrit
If Luffy went up against a Haki user or a swordsman or an energy blast user with a doriki of 4000 (or whatever 4000 becomes after hybrid boost) he would have died, the only reason he could beat Lucci was because he was a physical brawler, a type of fighter that is at a disadvantage against a rubber man.

Heck in Thriller Bark, we see Sanzen Sekai doing as much damage to Oars as G3.

In Sabaody, G2 Luffy, DJ Sanji and Base Zoro were portrayed as equals against the pacifista.

 

[Pirate Queen]

@M3J @Shinigami769 @eefrit
If Luffy went up against a Haki user or a swordsman or an energy blast user with a doriki of 4000 (or whatever 4000 becomes after hybrid boost) he would have died, the only reason he could beat Lucci was because he was a physical brawler, a type of fighter that is at a disadvantage against a rubber man.

Heck in Thriller Bark, we see Sanzen Sekai doing as much damage to Oars as G3.

In Sabaody, G2 Luffy, DJ Sanji and Base Zoro were portrayed as equals against the pacifista.

Not true, Luffy beat seasoned haki users without G3 or competent haki usage.


Nor was Luffy ever portrayed and Zoro and Sanji's equal in Shabondy. Thats nonsense.

 

[M3J]

@M3J @Shinigami769 @eefrit
If Luffy went up against a Haki user or a swordsman or an energy blast user with a doriki of 4000 (or whatever 4000 becomes after hybrid boost) he would have died, the only reason he could beat Lucci was because he was a physical brawler, a type of fighter that is at a disadvantage against a rubber man.

Heck in Thriller Bark, we see Sanzen Sekai doing as much damage to Oars as G3.

In Sabaody, G2 Luffy, DJ Sanji and Base Zoro were portrayed as equals against the pacifista.

Who cares about doriki? That was only used once.

The main reason he could beat Lucci was because of his willpower. Lucci was a fruit user too and could withstand damage, and he was dealing considerable damage to Luffy.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I love how arguements against Luffy have to do with taking away his established skills.

"Well without Haki..."

"Well in base..."

"If he just used G2 and G3..."

"If Luffy wasn't made of Rubber..."


These agreements are just hollow at this point. Luffy's will power is the greatest thing about him. His ability to never stay down until the fight is over