Juliet and Heine never defeated Mirajane in Satan Soul. Mirajane simply realized that she couldn't beat them without using Alegria, and used it. Sure, she didn't use Alegria against Madmole or Skullion, but she flat out said that she wasn't sure if she and Elfman could beat Madmole and Skullion altogether. That means she's taking into account of them both going all out, and still has doubts. She had zero doubts that Alegria could stomp Juliet and Heine.
We don't even know if Mira has Alegria anymore. Since Zeref died, Alegria should've gone back to underworld as well if Mashima is being consistent.
And it's a double edged sword as well. Unless she beats Skullion fast, it's gonna drain all her MP. He acknowledging that she wasn't sure of beating Skullion is indication that it probably wouldn't have mattered, even if Alegria is still available to her
Lisanna is fodder, and not even a particularly strong fodder. Any attack stronger than Madmole's slap would have oneshotted her. So realistically, Lisanna probably just helped Elfman fly. You could replace Lisanna with an exceed, and it would make pretty much zero difference to Elfman's chances against a Spriggan. In fact, Pantherlily might actually be an upgrade because he at least has Edolas-arc Gajeel tier stats in his human form.
Juliet and Heine never defeated Mirajane in Satan Soul. Mirajane simply realized that she couldn't beat them without using Alegria, and used it. Sure, she didn't use Alegria against Madmole or Skullion, but she flat out said that she wasn't sure if she and Elfman could beat Madmole and Skullion altogether. That means she's taking into account of them both going all out, and still has doubts. She had zero doubts that Alegria could stomp Juliet and Heine.
Lisanna is fodder but Ajeel would have no diff Elfman if she wasn't here. Elfman is beating a Spriggan only because he was advantaged and in a 2v1. Elfman is not Spriggan tier, same for Madmole who was on par with him.
That confirms that Juliet & Heine was stronger than BSS Mira who Skullion couldn't defeat. Juliet & Heine has better feats than Skullion against BSS Mira and you can't deny facts. Spriggan tier > Juliet & Heine > Skullion/Madmole for now.
Lisanna is fodder but Ajeel would have no diff Elfman if she wasn't here. Elfman is beating a Spriggan only because he was advantaged and in a 2v1. Elfman is not Spriggan tier, same for Madmole who was on par with him.
That confirms that Juliet & Heine was stronger than BSS Mira who Skullion couldn't defeat. Juliet & Heine has better feats than Skullion against BSS Mira and you can't deny facts. Spriggan tier > Juliet & Heine > Skullion/Madmole for now.
Lisanna is fodder but Ajeel would have no diff Elfman if she wasn't here. Elfman is beating a Spriggan only because he was advantaged and in a 2v1. Elfman is not Spriggan tier, same for Madmole who was on par with him.
That confirms that Juliet & Heine was stronger than BSS Mira who Skullion couldn't defeat. Juliet & Heine has better feats than Skullion against BSS Mira and you can't deny facts. Spriggan tier > Juliet & Heine > Skullion/Madmole for now.
Lissana only helped get out of one spell that's all. This doesn't reduce Ajeel's physical stats. Elfman still had enough physical power to put him down which is much better than Minerva putting down Historia whal who was much weaker than the original version.
Jacob couldn't put down Mira without any takeovers. His eyes closed doesn't take away his durability nor his physical strength. He was able to still land hits on her with his eyes closed. Mira was exhausted and whatever handicap he gave is balanced with Mira not using any take-over forms until the last minute to one-shot him. So you will have to adjust your little facts as J and H > BSS Mira > Jacob = Mira with no takeovers. Don't bring he didn't use transport. The fight is off-panel he could have easily tried using it as well. He needs to clap his hands and Mira could have prevented it by going CQC. He doesn't need vision for that spell to work.
Mira doesnt have them alive in her, her magic is like a copy magic. She tried (and did) to takeover Seilah when she was alive, Elfman also tookover Rusty's hand.
Also, was it stated that Alegria is Zeref's demon?
Lissana only helped get out of one spell that's all. This doesn't reduce Ajeel's physical stats. Elfman still had enough physical power to put him down which is much better than Minerva putting down Historia whal who was much weaker than the original version.
Jacob couldn't put down Mira without any takeovers. His eyes closed doesn't take away his durability nor his physical strength. He was able to still land hits on her with his eyes closed. Mira was exhausted and whatever handicap he gave is balanced with Mira not using any take-over forms until the last minute to one-shot him. So you will have to adjust your little facts as J and H > BSS Mira > Jacob = Mira with no takeovers. Don't bring he didn't use transport. The fight is off-panel he could have easily tried using it as well. He needs to clap his hands and Mira could have prevented it by going CQC. He doesn't need vision for that spell to work.
She still helped and you can't deny the fact that Elfman would have been no diff if she wasn't here, something Madmole can't do.
Ajeel : Defeated in 2v1 against a guy who was advantaged
Madmole : Was on par with a guy who has no advantage and would have probably loose if the fight would have continued.
Saying Jacob used transport is headcanon, there is nothing who suggers that. No one here said Jacob without his hax and eyes close is above J&H or Mira.
Jacob 100% > J&H > BSS Mira/Skullion > Jacob no hax and eyes close
Saying Jacob used transport is headcanon, there is nothing who suggers that. No one here said Jacob without his hax and eyes close is above J&H or Mira.
Jacob 100% > J&H > BSS Mira/Skullion > Jacob no hax and eyes close
Saying Jacob didn't use it is also headcanon. The fight is off-panel. No reason to assume he didn't use it. Unless he didn't have enough time to clap his hands. There is nothing to suggest he didn't use it. Jacob with his eyes closed doesn't reduce his durability nor his physical strength. He couldn't put down Mira who wasn't using takeover magic for the most part of the fight and was one-shotted in bss. So him having his eyes open means nothing. J&H > BSS Mira > Jacob
She still helped and you can't deny the fact that Elfman would have been no diff if she wasn't here, something Madmole can't do.
Ajeel : Defeated in 2v1 against a guy who was advantaged
Madmole : Was on par with a guy who has no advantage and would have probably loose if the fight would have continued.
Please stay on topic don't know why you bothered bringing Madmole here. I never brought up a Madmole unless you can see things I can't. I was talking about only Elfman beating Ajeel. She only helped against one spell. That's all. He did have enough strength to put down Ajeel which is far better than Minerva beating Historia Whal who is weaker than the original.
Madmole would have lost if the fight continued? The fight ended with no result. Don't know why you think otherwise.
Saying Jacob didn't use it is also headcanon. The fight is off-panel. No reason to assume he didn't use it. Unless he didn't have enough time to clap his hands. There is nothing to suggest he didn't use it. Jacob with his eyes closed doesn't reduce his durability nor his physical strength. He couldn't put down Mira who wasn't using takeover magic for the most part of the fight and was one-shotted in bss. So him having his eyes open means nothing. J&H > BSS Mira > Jacob
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Please stay on topic don't know why you bothered bringing Madmole here. I never brought up a Madmole unless you can see things I can't. I was talking about only Elfman beating Ajeel. She only helped against one spell. That's all. He did have enough strength to put down Ajeel which is far better than Minerva beating Historia Whal who is weaker than the original.
Madmole would have lost if the fight continued? The fight ended with no result. Don't know why you think otherwise.
From what we saw Jacob never used transport against Mira, unlike you can proove he did, he didn't. Mira herself said he was tough and it was a good thing that he was so weird but i suppose she's wrong and u are right.
There was a reason of why Jacob was a Spriggan and J&H not, but if you really think J&H are stronger than a Spriggan then this debate end here.
Elfman would never have defeated Ajeel in 1vs1. Lisanna herself said they just barely defeated him, even two against-one.
From what we saw Jacob never used transport against Mira, unlike you can proove he did, he didn't. Mira herself said he was tough and it was a good thing that he was so weird but i suppose she's wrong and u are right.
We saw nothing because the fight was off-panel. You can't prove that he didn't use it as well. This is like me saying Skullion never used the spells he used against Gray but instead continue punch, Mira. Mira said the same thing to Skullion as well and she said the same thing to J and H. They were tough. Don't know why you are trying to bring something Mira said as an argument to downplay characters. It just means Jacob was as tough as J and H/Skullion. It's easier to earn FT respect. Just the same way Erza said Sting was powerful in GMG. But he was humiliated by Natsu.
I am not the guy who keeps bringing BSS Mira to downplay characters. You are the guy who keeps saying someone who couldn't BSS Mira should be below J and H. In that case, Jacob should be below J and H as well. He couldn't even down base Mira without any takeovers who was magically exhausted as well. He didn't even face BSS for the most part of the fight.
Elfman still had enough power to down him which is better than Minerva beating Historia Whal. Ajeel having weakness against sand takeover doesn't take away his speed and durability. Elfman still had to be at least close to Erza's speed to tag Ajeel.
1. The ship was right outside the temple. It was literally within Madmole's throwing distance. They all started in the temple. Kyria stayed in the temple to fight Lucy's group. Gray and Skullion moved outside underwater. They were all closer to each other than Ermina. Skullion's ash wouldn't have done any damage to Aldoron either. So if standing on the ship would have protected Madmole, wouldn't standing on Aldoron protect everyone? Besides, I don't think that's how it works. Madmole and Natsu were standing on the top of the ship. The the sand engulfs the whole ship, it would harm them too. Not that it matters, because Skullion couldn't have known Madmole was on the ship. He used the attack anyways.
2. Elfman doesn't have to be as fast as Erza. He's stronger than Tartaros Arc Erza because he can beat Ajeel, who was a good opponent for Alvarez Arc Erza. I don't buy that Wall at full power is more than twice as durable as Ajeel to begin with, but there's no reason to assume Wall was even at 50% of the original regardless. Neinhart had to split his MP between 3 ways to summon the Spriggan historias. Technically, Minerva got exhausted by 1/3rd of Neinhart's power. Enchanted Neinhart was stronger than any of his historias, and Natsu oneshotted him. Same Natsu hurt himself using a demolition fist on Madmole. Elfman beat a Spriggan and held his own against Madmole, who has Natsu tier strength and better defense than any Spriggan bar August and Irene.
Lisanna is fodder, and not even a particularly strong fodder. Any attack stronger than Madmole's slap would have oneshotted her. So realistically, Lisanna probably just helped Elfman fly. You could replace Lisanna with an exceed, and it would make pretty much zero difference to Elfman's chances against a Spriggan. In fact, Pantherlily might actually be an upgrade because he at least has Edolas-arc Gajeel tier stats in his human form.
1. The manga didn't show the ship in the range of the speel. (https://fan-official.eorzea.us/manga/Fairy-Tail-100-Years-Quest/0011-013.png). The thing is: He used the spell first against Gray while fighting in the middle of the sea, undersurface but no so deep in the water as the temple, and apparently was him that lead Gray to fight outside the temple and not in the temple where Kyria was. Why would Skullion try to fight in another scenario and not where he and his allies already were? Anyhow, what is matter is: a) He cast a range surrounding spell against Gray and didn't use it against the Strauss duo, b) Natsu couldn't hit Skullion without Wendy's air magic, the manga is clearly that her wind is Skullion weakness, because if it only was a ''level of power thing'', Natsu would hurt him without Wendy's help. So, since Elfman and Mirajane didn't show wind magic, I can't see how they stopped the ''surrounding-ranged-like spell", thus, I can't only assume that Skullion just didn't use it because he had his reason to not use it.
2. Elfman isn't stronger than Tartaros Erza. Ajeel didn't prove to be stronger than Kyouka at endurance and even her curse is better than his magic overall. Ajeel defeated Erza by absorbing water from her body (something that endurance against physical attacks couldn't overcome) and he only did it initially thanks to Marin, who stopped Erza from use magic. Alias, Ajeel was very damaged by the Jupiter Canon, something that Phantom Lord Erza was able to overcome while getting very damaged. But it should be obsolete by now, once that, as you said, the evolution of power level is very quickly in the manga. This is something bad for Ajeel.
Neinhart was only keeping Wahl and Bloodman when the fight against Sabertooth started (God Serena was already defeated) and during the fight, Irene boosted Neinhart MP to a level that he became immune to Brandish's magic, so both Wahl and Bloodman should be at 50% of their original MP. It never was stated that Enhanced Neinhart is stronger than his Historia, no at endurance level at least. Anyhow, Wahl 100% showed endurance feats, he is a lot better than Ajeel in this area because he tanked Laxus physical force (Laxus has more feats than Elfman in strength). I didn't see Madmole with a better defense than God Serena, August, Irene, Brandish (in her supergiant form), and Elfman didn't fight him alone, he was with Mirajane, Actually, at the start of the fight, Elfman tried to hit Madmole with his Lion T.O and was hurt and taken out of his form. Further, it was showed him fighting against Madmole with the same Lion form again (a form that couldn't even knock out Loki), so how Elfman could hurt his foe since he was with this form that the manga showed as being unable to hurt the foe? Elfman could make a Unison Raid with Mirajane or Madmole's defense was getting weaker by the time he spent his MP. You can't state that Elfman alone overcome his enemy when it was showed that the Lion's form couldn't surpass Madmole armor. Minerva, otherwise, was fighting Wahl ALONE, and Wahl has better endurance feats than Ajeel (of course, she was fighting against 50%Wahl).
Because Lisanna is fodder that her being able to endure until the end of the fight against Ajeel only shows that Ajeel couldn't hit any relevant attack in the opponents.
Elfman still had enough power to down him which is better than Minerva beating Historia Whal. Ajeel having weakness against sand takeover doesn't take away his speed and durability. Elfman still had to be at least close to Erza's speed to tag Ajeel.
Not, of course not. Lucy defeated Jackals, so she was close to Natsu in speed at that time? It's not how it works. At the begging of Alvarez arc, Elfman was portrayed to be unable to hit a robot that Lisanna (who is far far below Erza's speed) could tag with her speed. We didn't see Elfman and Lisanna vs Ajeel, but, once Elfman was holding a Sand Beast, probably the fight mechanism was both controlling the sand and attacking the opponent with it. Maybe, Elfman only hit two physical attacks in Ajeel and won and maybe he could only do it thanks to Lisanna be a distraction, etc. There are a lot of possibilities. But the manga never stated that Elfman is closed to Erza's speed, actually, Elfman was always retracted as SLOW.
1. The manga didn't show the ship in the range of the speel. (https://fan-official.eorzea.us/manga/Fairy-Tail-100-Years-Quest/0011-013.png). The thing is: He used the spell first against Gray while fighting in the middle of the sea, undersurface but no so deep in the water as the temple, and apparently was him that lead Gray to fight outside the temple and not in the temple where Kyria was. Why would Skullion try to fight in another scenario and not where he and his allies already were? Anyhow, what is matter is: a) He cast a range surrounding spell against Gray and didn't use it against the Strauss duo, b) Natsu couldn't hit Skullion without Wendy's air magic, the manga is clearly that her wind is Skullion weakness, because if it only was a ''level of power thing'', Natsu would hurt him without Wendy's help. So, since Elfman and Mirajane didn't show wind magic, I can't see how they stopped the ''surrounding-ranged-like spell", thus, I can't only assume that Skullion just didn't use it because he had his reason to not use it.
2. Elfman isn't stronger than Tartaros Erza. Ajeel didn't prove to be stronger than Kyouka at endurance and even her curse is better than his magic overall. Ajeel defeated Erza by absorbing water from her body (something that endurance against physical attacks couldn't overcome) and he only did it initially thanks to Marin, who stopped Erza from use magic. Alias, Ajeel was very damaged by the Jupiter Canon, something that Phantom Lord Erza was able to overcome while getting very damaged. But it should be obsolete by now, on ce that, as you said, the evolution of power level is very quickly in the manga. This is something bad for Ajeel.
Neinhart was only keeping Wahl and Bloodman when the fight against Sabertooth started (God Serena was already defeated) and during the fight, Irene boosted Neinhart MP to a level that he became immune to Brandish's magic, so both Wahl and Bloodman should be at 50% of their original MP. It never was stated that Enhanced Neinhart is stronger than his Historia, no at endurance level at least. Anyhow, Wahl 100% showed endurance feats, he is a lot better than Ajeel in this area because he tanked Laxus physical force (Laxus has more feats than Elfman in strength). I didn't see Madmole with a better defense than God Serena, August, Irene, Brandish (in her supergiant form), and Elfman didn't fight him alone, he was with Mirajane, Actually, at the start of the fight, Elfman tried to hit Madmole with his Lion T.O and was hurt and taken out of his form. Further, it was showed him fighting against Madmole with the same Lion form again (a form that couldn't even knock out Loki), so how Elfman could hurt his foe since he was with this form that the manga showed as being unable to hurt the foe? Elfman could make a Unison Raid with Mirajane or Madmole's defense was getting weaker by the time he spent his MP. You can't state that Elfman alone overcome his enemy when it was showed that the Lion's form couldn't surpass Madmole armor. Minerva, otherwise, was fighting Wahl ALONE, and Wahl has better endurance feats than Ajeel (of course, she was fighting against 50%Wahl).
Because Lisanna is fodder that her being able to endure until the end of the fight against Ajeel only shows that Ajeel couldn't hit any relevant attack in the opponents.
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Not, of course not. Lucy defeated Jackals, so she was close to Natsu in speed at that time? It's not how it works. At the begging of Alvarez arc, Elfman was portrayed to be unable to hit a robot that Lisanna (who is far far below Erza's speed) could tag with her speed. We didn't see Elfman and Lisanna vs Ajeel, but, once Elfman was holding a Sand Beast, probably the fight mechanism was both controlling the sand and attacking the opponent with it. Maybe, Elfman only hit two physical attacks in Ajeel and won and maybe he could only do it thanks to Lisanna be a distraction, etc. There are a lot of possibilities. But the manga never stated that Elfman is closed to Erza's speed, actually, Elfman was always retracted as SLOW.
So? Skullion's spell had yet to reach it's full size. The size of the spell in the panel you showed was that of a small building at best. It was just a couple of times larger than the distance between Gray and Skullion. At full size the spell would have engulfed Ermina. The fact still remains that Madmole and the ship is simply closer to Skullion's location than the city of Ermina.
The ship was quite literally within throwing distance from the temple. Natsu's sword horn push them both out the top of the tower, and from that position Madmole was able to throw Natsu to the boat.
Gray and Skullion were fighting outside the temple too. They were just underwater. You can actually see part of the temple in the background here where Gray and Skullion were fighting. Also, the temple wasn't completely underwater. What you seem to not be getting is that the temple is a watchtower located somewhere out in the middle of the ocean. Ermina is a city located near the shore. Sure, Ermina gets submerged when the tide comes in, but it's not located in the middle of the ocean like the temple is. Skullion's attack will engulf the temple way before it ever reaches the shores of Ermina.
The idea that Skullion held back because he was afraid of hurting his own teammates just makes zero sense. Absolute ash would have engulfed the temple and the ship when he used it against Gray, and Skullion didn't care. Kyria, Nebal, and Wraith were located in different cities, so they were never in any danger. He could have simply told Madmole to leave, or better yet... forcibly teleport him. Instead he retreated along with Madmole. Rather than telling Madmole to stay out of his way next time, he decided it was time to ask for help from someone stronger because they couldn't get the job done by themselves because, in his own words, they "couldn't get the job done by themselves".
Mirajane and Elfman were able to hurt Skullion. So they were able to counter Skullion's magic too, even without wind magic. Again, there is zero reason to assume that Skullion held back in any fashion. Mirajane could have simply blown up his spell with one of her blasts. They were able to hurt Madmole too. Which means, at some point, he was hit with an attack harder than demolition fist.
Ajeel is way stronger than Kyouka, and Erza herself even said that he was stronger than any opponent she's faced before. Ajeel basically defeated Alvarez arc Erza if not for Bisca hitting him with the Jupiter canon. Ajeel can actually defend against the Jupiter canon entirely and take zero damage whatsoever. So his casual hand wave offers better defense than Erza's adamantine armor. Even when he was caught off guard and hit by it, it still took nakagami armour to finish him off.
No. Just because God Serena was defeated, it doesn't retroactively give more power to the other Historia's. Historia of the dead is life-make magic. They are molding magic similar to Lyon's ice sculptures. When God Serena was defeated, the power that Neinhart put into making him is gone. The historia of Wall, at best, contained 1/3rd of Neinhart's power. And yes, it was stated that enchanted Neinhart was stronger than his historia. He said that his magic powers had surpassed its limits, so he felt his new powers were better than his old ones. His old ones were the historia. The whole point of Irene enchanting Neinhart was so that he could be strong enough to beat Erza without his historia.
To put it bluntly: Elfman beat a Spriggan. Minerva didn't. It really should be as simple as that. You can argue that the fact that Lisanna was still standing meant that Ajeel never used any strong attacks, but how do you know that Elfman didn't shield for Lisanna like GIldarts did for Cana against August? And alright....let's assume that Ajeel never used the same attacks he used against Erza. Does it matter? We saw nothing impressive from the historia of Wall either. Or Minerva for that matter. For all we know, it could have owned Minerva for the entire battle and then got friendly fired by the historia of Bloodman.
/\ The ashes were spreading on the surface and not undersurface, so the temple was safe and.... wait... going to what it matters: there is no scenario evidence that shows that Skullion cast the spell against the Strauss, you said that he tried and Mirajane/Elfman stopped him, but this is a spell that turn into ashes a large area, so a big part of the city would become empty (gone as ashes) and that didn't happen. And if you are saying that Mirajane and Elfman stopped the cast of the spell, like they didn't let Skullion cast it, it doesn't seem plausible because Gray's Silver Ice couldn't and we know that this Ice cover a great area too. You said that once the Strauss hurt Skullion they could stop the spell, but it's different. Surpass Juvia's water body, for example, it's not the same as surpassing a huge ranged water attack. Mashima often put that an intangible body (Juvia, Keith, Skullion) needs to be activated, so Strauss could hurt Skullion when he didn't could activate the ash body in time to avoid the damage.
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Actually, Kyouka's has better resistance feats than Ajeel's, because THIS: https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Fairy-Tail/0372-010.png , https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Fairy-Tail/0372-016.png , https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Fairy-Tail/0372-017.png >>> be very damaged by Jupiter Canon, that Phantom Lord Erza tanked, Ajeel can defend himself against the canon, but can't tank it. He has no resistance to overcome the attack without being very damaged. Erza praised the range of Ajeel's spell as she praised Brandish's magic too. Ajeel only would win against Erza because of the sand world, something that he didn't use against Elfman, and because Erza already had suffered from his sand dehydration at the beginning of the fight thanks to Marin. Ajeel had an advantage against Erza's fight style + was helped by Marin's magic to inflict damage on her foe and, even in this scenario, needed to use his "stronger spell".
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You're very wrong about Neinhart Historia of Corpses. It was never stated that the summons can't get stronger when one of the other Historias was defeated, actually, if he was splitting his MP into 3 summoners, once one gone, he keeping spliting all that left between two and, because he gains a boom in MP, the left two was around 50% of the original Spriggan powers. Neinhart never stated that he was strong that his Historias, he said that his Historias didn't work on Erza. Actually, a summoner isn't stronger than his invocation, otherwise, he didn't would need to use his invocations to fight. Irene only amplifies her MP, so he could cast stronger magics (Neinhart since the beginning was portrayed to use magic by himself too, he cast one against Kagura) and defeat Erza by himself. But once his MP was amplified, the summoners keeping in the battlefield by his MP got stronger too.
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It doesn't matter if Elfman defeats a Spriggan, once some of the Spriggans were defeated by casual punches from Natsu, and Jacob was defeated by Mirajane SS classic form, a form that couldn't defeat Heyne and Juliet (who are not at Sprriggan level). Minerva defeated a weaker version of a Spriggan that has endurance feats, unlike Ajeel who only endured three sword cuts and was very damaged by the Jupiter canon. Minerva fought alone against a foe that explored her weakness. Elfman fought with Lisanna support (she is faster than him and can make him escape by air) and with fight style advantage, with a Take Over form that has the advantage against the enemies magic and without the enemy use his ''Sand World'' (the is the Spell that even Erza could deal with), so there's no way that Minerva's feat is lowers than Elfman's.
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And once that Elfman can compete with Minerva's speed, the dynamic of the fight will be as Elfman x Bacchus. But the Lizard form will not be good with someone who not necessarily fights physically.
/\ The ashes were spreading on the surface and not undersurface, so the temple was safe and.... wait... going to what it matters: there is no scenario evidence that shows that Skullion cast the spell against the Strauss, you said that he tried and Mirajane/Elfman stopped him, but this is a spell that turn into ashes a large area, so a big part of the city would become empty (gone as ashes) and that didn't happen. And if you are saying that Mirajane and Elfman stopped the cast of the spell, like they didn't let Skullion cast it, it doesn't seem plausible because Gray's Silver Ice couldn't and we know that this Ice cover a great area too. You said that once the Strauss hurt Skullion they could stop the spell, but it's different. Surpass Juvia's water body, for example, it's not the same as surpassing a huge ranged water attack. Mashima often put that an intangible body (Juvia, Keith, Skullion) needs to be activated, so Strauss could hurt Skullion when he didn't could activate the ash body in time to avoid the damage.
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Actually, Kyouka's has better resistance feats than Ajeel's, because THIS: https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Fairy-Tail/0372-010.png , https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Fairy-Tail/0372-016.png , https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Fairy-Tail/0372-017.png >>> be very damaged by Jupiter Canon, that Phantom Lord Erza tanked, Ajeel can defend himself against the canon, but can't tank it. He has no resistance to overcome the attack without being very damaged. Erza praised the range of Ajeel's spell as she praised Brandish's magic too. Ajeel only would win against Erza because of the sand world, something that he didn't use against Elfman, and because Erza already had suffered from his sand dehydration at the beginning of the fight thanks to Marin. Ajeel had an advantage against Erza's fight style + was helped by Marin's magic to inflict damage on her foe and, even in this scenario, needed to use his "stronger spell".
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You're very wrong about Neinhart Historia of Corpses. It was never stated that the summons can't get stronger when one of the other Historias was defeated, actually, if he was splitting his MP into 3 summoners, once one gone, he keeping spliting all that left between two and, because he gains a boom in MP, the left two was around 50% of the original Spriggan powers. Neinhart never stated that he was strong that his Historias, he said that his Historias didn't work on Erza. Actually, a summoner isn't stronger than his invocation, otherwise, he didn't would need to use his invocations to fight. Irene only amplifies her MP, so he could cast stronger magics (Neinhart since the beginning was portrayed to use magic by himself too, he cast one against Kagura) and defeat Erza by himself. But once his MP was amplified, the summoners keeping in the battlefield by his MP got stronger too.
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It doesn't matter if Elfman defeats a Spriggan, once some of the Spriggans were defeated by casual punches from Natsu, and Jacob was defeated by Mirajane SS classic form, a form that couldn't defeat Heyne and Juliet (who are not at Sprriggan level). Minerva defeated a weaker version of a Spriggan that has endurance feats, unlike Ajeel who only endured three sword cuts and was very damaged by the Jupiter canon. Minerva fought alone against a foe that explored her weakness. Elfman fought with Lisanna support (she is faster than him and can make him escape by air) and with fight style advantage, with a Take Over form that has the advantage against the enemies magic and without the enemy use his ''Sand World'' (the is the Spell that even Erza could deal with), so there's no way that Minerva's feat is lowers than Elfman's.
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And once that Elfman can compete with Minerva's speed, the dynamic of the fight will be as Elfman x Bacchus. But the Lizard form will not be good with someone who not necessarily fights physically.
I have no idea why you're still arguing this point. Gray and Skullion were right outside the temple. This is a fact. You can see it in the background they were fighting. That means Skullion was closer to Kyria and Madmole than the city of Ermina. If Skullion's attack could reach Ermina, then it would have swallowed the ship and the temple too.
Mirajane and Elfman gave Skullion a good enough fight that he thought it was necessary to beg his guild for help. Skullion would have to be a moron for what you're saying to make sense. If defeating them was as simple as asking Madmole to retreat while he casts Absolute Ash, then he would have done so. It would have saved him the trouble and humiliation of going back to the guild and asking for more help. You're telling me that Skullion couldn't win because his teammates got in the way, so his solution to that problem is.... to get more teammates?
Why am I supposed to be impressed by that? It still doesn't change the fact that Ajeel is stronger. Erza stated that they were in a class of their own because of the scale of their magic. Ajeel can tank Jupiter canon. That's why Erza needed to follow up with nakagami starlight to actually finish him off. He just can't no-sell Jupiter canon, but neither can Erza. She still took massive damage with her adamantine armor. Ajeel can completely no-sell the attack if he blocks it with his barriers. You need to catch him off guard to deal damage.
Neinhart said that his magic power surpassed had surpassed its limits. He created the Spriggan historia before he was enchanted. Those historia were created under the limits of his old powers, and his new powers....well, surpasses them.
Historia are molding magic. They are created with a certain amount of MP, and when they are defeated that MP doesn't go back into Neinhart lol. Same way the MP of Gray's attacks don't go back into him if you break his ice. But okay....Let's say that Neinhart can just redistribute his MP. Natsu already defeated Neinhart in chapter 500, long before Makarov casted Fairy Law. The historia only started disappearing after Makarov cast Fairy Law, so they were still fighting after Neinhart was knocked out. You know what that means right? That means Minerva didn't even beat Wall with 30% of Neinhart's power. She fought a version of Wall who only had the power of an unconscious and wrecked Neinhart. So Elfman defeated a Spriggan that gave Erza massive trouble, and then held his own against a guy who hurt Natsu with his own demolition fist and tanked FDK Purgatory. Minerva fought a historia of Wall with half the power of an unconscious Neinhart.
1.I have no idea why you're still arguing this point. Gray and Skullion were right outside the temple. This is a fact. You can see it in the background they were fighting. That means Skullion was closer to Kyria and Madmole than the city of Ermina. If Skullion's attack could reach Ermina, then it would have swallowed the ship and the temple too.
2. Mirajane and Elfman gave Skullion a good enough fight that he thought it was necessary to beg his guild for help. Skullion would have to be a moron for what you're saying to make sense. If defeating them was as simple as asking Madmole to retreat while he casts Absolute Ash, then he would have done so. It would have saved him the trouble and humiliation of going back to the guild and asking for more help. You're telling me that Skullion couldn't win because his teammates got in the way, so his solution to that problem is.... to get more teammates?
3. Why am I supposed to be impressed by that? It still doesn't change the fact that Ajeel is stronger. Erza stated that they were in a class of their own because of the scale of their magic. Ajeel can tank Jupiter canon. That's why Erza needed to follow up with nakagami starlight to actually finish him off. He just can't no-sell Jupiter canon, but neither can Erza. She still took massive damage with her adamantine armor. Ajeel can completely no-sell the attack if he blocks it with his barriers. You need to catch him off guard to deal damage.
3. Neinhart said that his magic power surpassed had surpassed its limits. He created the Spriggan historia before he was enchanted. Those historia were created under the limits of his old powers, and his new powers....well, surpasses them.
Historia are molding magic. They are created with a certain amount of MP, and when they are defeated that MP doesn't go back into Neinhart lol. Same way the MP of Gray's attacks don't go back into him if you break his ice. But okay....Let's say that Neinhart can just redistribute his MP. Natsu already defeated Neinhart in chapter 500, long before Makarov casted Fairy Law. The historia only started disappearing after Makarov cast Fairy Law, so they were still fighting after Neinhart was knocked out. You know what that means right? That means Minerva didn't even beat Wall with 30% of Neinhart's power. She fought a version of Wall who only had the power of an unconscious and wrecked Neinhart. So Elfman defeated a Spriggan that gave Erza massive trouble, and then held his own against a guy who hurt Natsu with his own demolition fist and tanked FDK Purgatory. Minerva fought a historia of Wall with half the power of an unconscious Neinhart.
1. Because, buddy, you're saying wrong things? I know where Gray and Skullion were fighting, but do you know about proportion, right? The Temple covers all the sea, and a tower stands on to the surface. It's a sea. It's not a lake. The Temple is very very very big (bigger than the sea height size), so Skullion fight outside the Temple doesn't mean that the person fight inside the Temple are in danger because the people are miles and miles and miles below them. Anyway, the ashes were spreading to the surface and not undersurface, it was never stated or showed the Temple being almost turned into ashes, even the ''tale design part'' that is outside wasn't gone. The temple wasn't damaged, the ship wasn't stated to be in the range of the magic. It's only your suppositions, ignoring how big a Temple that is higher than the sea must be, so even the ship could be miles and miles away from Gray x Skullion battle and still "close" to the temple, because of its size. I will not continue this topic. Show me the manga panel that stated that the ship and the Temple were in the range, otherwise, only the city was.
3. Kyouka has better defensive feats and her curse is good as Ajeel's magic (is better actually), actually in a fight between the two, Kyouka probably would win. Sorry, I will draw: Ajeel can't tank the Jupiter Cannon without being very damaged. He can't overcome it and keeping fighting properly (actually it seems that he can't take it and keep fighting): https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Fairy-Tail/0458-018.png ( as you can see he was so damaged that even could try to react Erza re-equipping and landing the final blow).
PS: When Erza used Nakagami against Minerva, Minerva still conscious on the floor, so the attack is not strong enough to knock out completely the foe.
We're not talking against defending with a barrier, we are talking about endurance. And Ajeel was pretty damaged by the Jupiter Cannon, a weapon that Phantom Lord Erza tanked. End.
3. I could try to explain how the Historia of Death of works, but I will only put Neinhart saying: ''Mainting 3 Historias of the Spriggan 12 is a bit taxing.." MAINTAINING...
So, as I said, his magic works a lot like Lucy's and other summoners type in this way, the summon is keeping on the battlefield using the caster MP. Thus, Minerva fought and defeated 50% Wahl.
1. Because, buddy, you're saying wrong things? I know where Gray and Skullion was fighting, but do you know about proportion, right? The Temple covers all the sea, and a tower stands on to the surface. It's a sea. It's not a lake. The Temple is very very very big (bigger than the sea height size), so Skullion fight outside the Temple doesn't mean that the person fight inside the Temple are in danger because the people are miles and miles and miles below them. Anyway, the ashes were spreading to the surface and not undersurface, it was never stated or showed the Temple being almost turned into ashes, even the ''tale design part'' that is outside wasn't gone. The temple wasn't damaged, the ship wasn't stated to be in the range of the magic. It's only your suppositions, ignoring how big a Temple that is higher than the sea must be, so even the ship could be miles and miles away from Gray x Skullion battle and still "close" to the temple, because of its size. I will not continue this topic. Show me the manga panel that stated that the ship and the Temple were in the range, otherwise, only the city was.
3. Kyouka has better defensive feats is her curse as good as Ajeel, actually in a fight between the two, Kyouka probably would win. Sorry, I will draw: Ajeel can't tank the Jupiter canon without being very damaged. He can't overcome it and keeping fighting properly (actually it seems that he can't take it and keep fighting): https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Fairy-Tail/0458-018.png ( as you can see he was so damaged that even could try to react Erza re-equipping and landing the final blow).
PS: When Erza used Nakagami against Minerva, Minerva still conscious on the floor, so the attack is not strong enough to knock out completely the foe.
We're not talking against defending with a barrier, we are talking about endurance. And Ajeel was pretty damaged by the Jupiter Cannon, a weapon that Phantom Lord Erza tanked. End.
3. I could explain how the Historia of Death of works, but I will only put Neinhart saying: ''Mainting 3 Historias of the Spriggan 12 is a bit taxing.." MAINTAINING...
So, as I said, his magic works a lot like Lucy's and other summoners type in this way, the summon is keeping on the battlefield using the caster MP. Thus, Minerva fought and defeated 50% Wahl.
The temple covers the entire sea? Wait....What?!? The temple is a tower sized building under the sea. A bit of it stretches out over the top.
Skullion was right outside the temple underwater. The ship is within throwing distance from the above-water portion of the temple. The city of Ermina is nowhere close to Skullion's location. It's way off to the shore. The temple is in the middle of the sea. Even if the temple was as large as the entire sea (lol), Skullion's attack would still hit the temple and the boat before it got to the city of Ermina.
Yeah, he did ask for help. In fact, the second link you posted even shows Skullion saying that if they couldn't do it by themselves, then they would have to ask the black dragon slaying knights for help. Here's the official translation. If Skullion could have beaten Mirajane and Elfman, then he wouldn't have to report back to the master in failure. He would have just beaten them and continued with whatever his plans were of taking down the god dragon. Also, Madmole has Natsu/Gajeel/Gray tier of physical strength. The very fact that Elfman can keep up with him already puts him leagues above Minerva.
You think Kyouka can beat Ajeel? Even thought Erza is stronger post timeskip, needed outside help to win, and took worse injuries from Ajeel's fight? I guess Neinhart is the strongest Spriggan, given that he can summon Kyouka's historia and his new powers surpass that of his old historia.
It doesn't matter if Neinhart's maintaining the historia or not. If you destroy someone's magic spell, even one that they have to maintain with a constant stream of magic, they don't just re-absorb that MP back into their bodies. Whatever MP that Neinhart used to create God Serena is gone. Besides, this doesn't help your case. Neinhart got wrecked by Natsu early on. Minerva didn't fight a historia of Wall with 50% of Neinhart's power. She fought a historia of Wall with half the power of an unconscious Neinhart.
The temple covers the entire sea? Wait....What?!? The temple is a tower sized building under the sea. A bit of it stretches out over the top.
1.Skullion was right outside the temple underwater. The ship is within throwing distance from the above-water portion of the temple. The city of Ermina is nowhere close to Skullion's location. It's way off to the shore. The temple is in the middle of the sea. Even if the temple was as large as the entire sea (lol), Skullion's attack would still hit the temple and the boat before it got to the city of Ermina.
2. Yeah, he did ask for help. In fact, the second link you posted even shows Skullion saying that if they couldn't do it by themselves, then they would have to ask the black dragon slaying knights for help. Here's the official translation. If Skullion could have beaten Mirajane and Elfman, then he wouldn't have to report back to the master in failure. He would have just beaten them and continued with whatever his plans were of taking down the god dragon. Also, Madmole has Natsu/Gajeel/Gray tier of physical strength. The very fact that Elfman can keep up with him already puts him leagues above Minerva.
You think Kyouka can beat Ajeel? Even thought Erza is stronger post timeskip, needed outside help to win, and took worse injuries from Ajeel's fight? I guess Neinhart is the strongest Spriggan, given that he can summon Kyouka's historia and his new powers surpass that of his old historia.
It doesn't matter if Neinhart's maintaining the historia or not. If you destroy someone's magic spell, even one that they have to maintain with a constant stream of magic, they don't just re-absorb that MP back into their bodies. Whatever MP that Neinhart used to create God Serena is gone. Besides, this doesn't help your case. Neinhart got wrecked by Natsu early on. Minerva didn't fight a historia of Wall with 50% of Neinhart's power. She fought a historia of Wall with half the power of an unconscious Neinhart.
1. It covers all the sea in height. The base is at the bottom of the sea and the principal tower is over the surface, so it covers all the sea. It's big and it should be very big in width too. Being outside the temple, in the middle of the sea can be miles away from inside the temple as I said.
2. First: Where I can read the official translation? Can you give me a link? Please. Second: Skullion isn't calling for help. It's the guild protocol. If this group can't win against FT, so they will need more strong persons. He isn't calling for help to defeat Elfman and Mirajane, he is counting the defeat of two Diablos members and the FT strength overall. Please, stop manipulating the information. Skullion already said to Mirajane and Elfman: "We will settle this fight other time", so he indicates that intends to fight against the Strauss again and not that He will put a stronger member against them because they were too strong for him and Madmole to deal with.
Minerva fought Erza's physical strength, which is stronger than Elfman's. Elfman can't keep with her speed, she is intelligent in combat, has barrier spell to defend her, and Elfman miraculously made some scratches in Madmole (once you can't prove that he not needed Mirajane's help to do it, like using a Unison Raid attack) will not guarantee that he can defeat Minerva.
3. Man, he was ''maintaining" 3 Spriggans in the battlefield, one is defeated, now he keeps maintaining two and his MP will split to only these two. It's obvious. You can't go against it. He received a boost at MP, so the summons that depends on it got stronger. It was never showed that Neinhart's loss of his consciousness would make the Historias weak, actually, he stated he was defeated the Historias would disappear, but, it didn't happen, probably because of Irene's upgrade. Minerva started to fight Wahl before Neinhart's defeat anyway.
1. It covers all the sea in height. The base is at the bottom of the sea and the principal tower is over the surface, so it covers all the sea. It's big and it should be very big in width too. Be outside the temple, in the middle of the sea can be miles away from inside the temple as I said.
2. First: Where I can read the official translation? Can you give me a link? Please. Second: Skullion isn't calling for help. It's the guild protocol. If this group can't win against FT, so they will need more strong persons. He isn't calling for help to defeat Elfman and Mirajane, he is counting the defeat of two Diablos members and the FT strength overall. Please, stop manipulating the information. Skullion already said to Mirajane and Elfman: "We will settle this fight other time", so he indicates that intends to fight Strauss again and not that He will put a stronger member against them because they were too strong for him and Madmole to deal with.
Minerva fought Erza's physical strength, which is stronger than Elfman's. Elfman can't keep with her speed, she is intelligent in combat, has barrier spell to defend her, and Elfman miraculously made some scratches in Madmole (once you can't prove that he not needed Mirajane's help to do it, like using a Unison Raid attack) will not guarantee that he can defeat Minerva.
3. Man, he was ''maintaining" 3 Spriggans in the battlefield, one is defeated, now he keeps maintaining two and his MP will split to only these two. It's obvious. You can't go against it. He received a boost at MP, so the summons that depends on it got stronger.
It's a tower from the sea floor to above water....Like oil rigs or lighthouses. That doesn't mean it takes up the entire sea. Skullion is right beside the temple. There's no way his attack can reach the shores of Ermina and not swallow the temple.
He is literally calling for help lol. If he could have ended the fight with Elfman and Mirajane with ease, like he did against Gray, he would have never needed to do that. Could he have factored in Natsu beating Wraith and Laxus beating Kyria? Sure. Doesn't change the fact that he couldn't beat Mirajane and Elfman. They were equals.
Minerva got beat down by Tartaros Erza with her bare hands. Madmole has current Natsu tier strength and better defense than pretty much any human but August and Irene. He's tankier than Gajeel. The fact that Elfman can trade blows with him at all puts him above Minerva. Elfman doesn't need to keep up with Minerva's speed. He's fast enough to hit Ajeel, and landed hits hard enough to defeat him, he just needs to hit Minerva a few good times. We don't even know if Mirajane and Elfman can perform a unison raid. All we know is that between the two of them, they managed to damage Madmole and resist all of Madmole and Skullion's effort to defeat them.
The MP that went into creating God Serena doesn't just go back to Neinhart. It's lost when the historia is destroyed. If I had 3 slices of pizza, and someone eats a slice....That doesn't make the remaining 2 slices a whole pizza. And Neinhart got wrecked by Natsu early on. If you think historia Wall could beat Ajeel, that means Neinhart could literally solo another Spriggan in his sleep.
It's a tower from the sea floor to above water....Like oil rigs or lighthouses. That doesn't mean it takes up the entire sea. Skullion is right beside the temple. There's no way his attack can reach the shores of Ermina and not swallow the temple.
He is literally calling for help lol. If he could have ended the fight with Elfman and Mirajane with ease, like he did against Gray, he would have never needed to do that. Could he have factored in Natsu beating Wraith and Laxus beating Kyria? Sure. Doesn't change the fact that he couldn't beat Mirajane and Elfman. They were equals.
Minerva got beat down by Tartaros Erza with her bare hands. Madmole has current Natsu tier strength and better defense than pretty much any human but August and Irene. He's tankier than Gajeel. The fact that Elfman can trade blows with him at all puts him above Minerva. Elfman doesn't need to keep up with Minerva's speed. He's fast enough to hit Ajeel, and landed hits hard enough to defeat him, he just needs to hit Minerva a few good times. We don't even know if Mirajane and Elfman can perform a unison raid. All we know is that between the two of them, they managed to damage Madmole and resist all of Madmole and Skullion's effort to defeat them.
The MP that went into creating God Serena doesn't just go back to Neinhart. It's lost when the historia is destroyed. If I had 3 slices of pizza, and someone eats a slice....That doesn't make the remaining 2 slices a whole pizza. And Neinhart got wrecked by Natsu early on. If you think historia Wall could beat Ajeel, that means Neinhart could literally solo another Spriggan in his sleep.
Lucy's spirits don't get stronger when one of them is defeated, why would Neinhart's historia? Neinhart struggling to maintain 3 Spriggan historia strikes me as no different to Tartaros Lucy struggling to maintain 3 Gold Keys, yeah it's hard on her but the spirits are all still full power. In the first place, it's never even said lack of magic is what weakens historia, it's because they're dead.
Elfman also obviously wins, even in GMG he would have given her a good fight given that he was Bacchus tier. Current Elfman wipes the floor with her, Madmole has better defense than any spriggan bar the top two, and by a huge amount, let alone when compared to a historia
