Fantasy x792 Elfman vs x792 Minerva

[Jhonatas Fernandes]

Lucy's spirits don't get stronger when one of them is defeated, why would Neinhart's historia? Neinhart struggling to maintain 3 Spriggan historia strikes me as no different to Tartaros Lucy struggling to maintain 3 Gold Keys, yeah it's hard on her but the spirits are all still full power. In the first place, it's never even said lack of magic is what weakens historia, it's because they're dead.

Elfman also obviously wins, even in GMG he would have given her a good fight given that he was Bacchus tier. Current Elfman wipes the floor with her, Madmole has better defense than any spriggan bar the top two, and by a huge amount, let alone when compared to a historia

Because it's not the same case. Lucy will not summon only parcial strenght of her spirits. lmao

 

[Seven777]

Because it's not the same case. Lucy will not summon only parcial strenght of her spirits. lmao

Neither will Neinhart, at least it has no given relation to his magic power. The reason the historia are weaker is because they're dead.

 

[Jhonatas Fernandes]

Neither will Neinhart, at least it has no given relation to his magic power. The reason the historia are weaker is because they're dead.

Nope. It was never stated that any Historias beside the Spriggans were weaker than their live version. Actually only God Serena was said to be very weaker than his original self (by Gildarts). We can only assume that is because the Spriggans are strong as Neinhart, so Neinhart can only keep 1 Spriggan with 100% of power and, since he needed to conjure 3, the power was divided. Once one is gone, the MP will split for two.

If Lucy's MP is all drained her Spirits will be gone. If Lucy conjures 3 Spirits her MP will be drained faster than if she only fights with 2.
The H-Spriggans got stronger with 2 of them keeeping in the Battlefield.

 

[Axiomus]

It truly doesn't matter how the historia worked. The historia only started to disappear after Makarov used Fairy Law. Neinhart got wrecked by Natsu way before that. Think about how much time elapsed. Brandish stepped in and enlarged Natsu's tumour, Lucy and Brandish had their skirmish, Dimaria stepped in and defeated Brandish, Dimaria kidnapped Lucy, Gray started and finished his rematch with Invel, Natsu beat up Dimaria, and then Natsu and Gray found each other and began fighting. Minerva spent all that time fighting a historia sustained by an unconscious Neinhart.

 

[Seven777]

Nope. It was never stated that any Historias beside the Spriggans were weaker than their live version. Actually only God Serena was said to be very weaker than his original self (by Gildarts). We can only assume that is because the Spriggans are strong as Neinhart, so Neinhart can only keep 1 Spriggan with 100% of power and, since he needed to conjure 3, the power was divided. Once one is gone, the MP will split for two.

If Lucy's MP is all drained her Spirits will be gone. If Lucy conjures 3 Spirits her MP will be drained faster than if she only fights with 2.
The H-Spriggans got stronger with 2 of them keeeping in the Battlefield.

I didn't say that they were, I said the reason the spriggan historia were weaker was because they were dead. We also don't know that Neinhart is capable of keeping 1 spriggan at %100 or that the power was divided. The reason they were weaker was stated outright, it's because they were dead.

Yeah, Lucy's MP drains faster if she fights with 3 spirits rather than two, but the two don't get stronger, they just drain her less. The same is likely true with Neinhart. Nowhere was it stated or implied that the remaining H-Spriggans were stronger after God Serena died

 

[Jhonatas Fernandes]

It truly doesn't matter how the historia worked. The historia only started to disappear after Makarov used Fairy Law. Neinhart got wrecked by Natsu way before that. Think about how much time elapsed. Brandish stepped in and enlarged Natsu's tumour, Lucy and Brandish had their skirmish, Dimaria stepped in and defeated Brandish, Dimaria kidnapped Lucy, Gray started and finished his rematch with Invel, Natsu beat up Dimaria, and then Natsu and Gray found each other and began fighting. Minerva spent all that time fighting a historia sustained by an unconscious Neinhart.

Fairy Law didn't defeat them. Minerva knows how FL works, she would know if the FL defeated her foe. And being sustained by an unconscious Neinhart doesn't matter, because if he was unconscious but his summons didn't disappear, his MP was keeping them in the battlefield and they still fight normally. Show something that states otherwise.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2020 ---

I didn't say that they were, I said the reason the spriggan historia were weaker was because they were dead. We also don't know that Neinhart is capable of keeping 1 spriggan at %100 or that the power was divided. The reason they were weaker was stated outright, it's because they were dead.

Yeah, Lucy's MP drains faster if she fights with 3 spirits rather than two, but the two don't get stronger, they just drain her less. The same is likely true with Neinhart. Nowhere was it stated or implied that the remaining H-Spriggans were stronger after God Serena died

We know that Neinhart could keep all the Haergon Historias with their full strength or even stronger than before, otherwise, how could Ikagura and Asuma tag Erza if they are enemies from 7 years ago? How could Zancrown be at advantage against Meredy? etc. Unless you are saying that the level of power doesn't change at all and even enemies from the middle of the manga in their weaker version (because they're dead) still strong enough to fight the Alvarez arc power level. Thus, Minerva with easy difficulty>>>> Elfman, once she was very above him in GMG.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2020 ---

"Elfman also obviously wins, even in GMG he would have given her a good fight given that he was Bacchus tier. Current Elfman wipes the floor with her, Madmole has better defense than any spriggan bar the top two, and by a huge amount, let alone when compared to a historia"

Bacchus was at the Erza tier 7 years before GMG or even before, probably he was in her level when she started to become famous. In GMG arc, he obviously wasn't at her level. He loosed to Elman, to Ichiya, and was one-shotted by Sting. GMG Minerva would beat Elfman and Bacchus at the same time.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2020 ---

1. It's a tower from the sea floor to above water....Like oil rigs or lighthouses. That doesn't mean it takes up the entire sea. Skullion is right beside the temple. There's no way his attack can reach the shores of Ermina and not swallow the temple.

2. He is literally calling for help lol. If he could have ended the fight with Elfman and Mirajane with ease, like he did against Gray, he would have never needed to do that. Could he have factored in Natsu beating Wraith and Laxus beating Kyria? Sure. Doesn't change the fact that he couldn't beat Mirajane and Elfman. They were equals.

3.Minerva got beat down by Tartaros Erza with her bare hands. Madmole has current Natsu tier strength and better defense than pretty much any human but August and Irene. He's tankier than Gajeel. The fact that Elfman can trade blows with him at all puts him above Minerva. Elfman doesn't need to keep up with Minerva's speed. He's fast enough to hit Ajeel, and landed hits hard enough to defeat him, he just needs to hit Minerva a few good times. We don't even know if Mirajane and Elfman can perform a unison raid. All we know is that between the two of them, they managed to damage Madmole and resist all of Madmole and Skullion's effort to defeat them.

The MP that went into creating God Serena doesn't just go back to Neinhart. It's lost when the historia is destroyed. If I had 3 slices of pizza, and someone eats a slice....That doesn't make the remaining 2 slices a whole pizza. And Neinhart got wrecked by Natsu early on. If you think historia Wall could beat Ajeel, that means Neinhart could literally solo another Spriggan in his sleep.

1. It takes all the sea, we can see it in the image that you put here.

2. It's not and even if he was, it's not to defeat Mirajane and Elfman, it's to deal with the Fairy Tail strength. He is not referring to the Strauss, he said he would come back and settle the things with the Strauss another time. End.

3. Minerva got beat by Tartatos Erza, that beats Kyouka in her stronger form with his bare hands and that will rip the floor with Elfman with her bare hands, Erza HAS better feats than Elfman at Physical strength, it's not demeriting to be beaten by Erza. And Minerva wasn't even fighting properly, she was in an internal fight, Erza noted it and Minerva wasn't knocked out in the fight. You're wrong about Madmole being over Irene's and August's resistance level and even about what is saying about Elfman. Elfman didn't prove to hit Madmole on his own and never to be able to surpass his defense with only his strength, he fought alongside Mirajane. And fought Ajeel alongside Lisanna, who is faster than him, so your arguments aren't proven. He tried to hit a punch and Madmole and was hurt and his TO was undone. He wasn't portrayed competing with Ajeel in speed. It' a two x one battle, and he wasn't even being able to hit a speed-type robot that Lisanna defeated, so there's no way that his speed is closer to Ajeel's.

4. Neinhart was maintaining 3 Historias with an amount of their strength, once one is gone, the remaining two will be stronger because now Neinhart is only keeping 2. If only one left, this one will be very close to the full capacity. 50% Wahl would give a good fight against Ajeel because Wahl has endurance feats and his magic explores the opponent's weakness. The Ajeel version that fought Elfman didn't knock out Lisanna...

Elfman didn't hit strong as Erza, that Minerva fought and was hit. He isn't fast as Erza, that is the kind of speed that Minerva can handle a while in a fight. He isn't as intelligent as Minerva. He didn't have the answer to the territory magic. He didn't have even solo feats as Minerva's. So even if she didn't have a good damaged spell I still put that all her advantages in a long-time fight will defeat him, after all, she was able to knock out 50%Wahl and her magic did hurt Erza, who was already above Elfman's in endurance at GMG and still above his level nowadays, etc.

 

[Axiomus]

Fairy Law didn't defeat them. Minerva knows how FL works, she would know if the FL defeated her foe. And being sustained by an unconscious Neinhart doesn't matter, because if he was unconscious but his summons didn't disappear, his MP was keeping them in the battlefield and they still fight normally. Show something that states otherwise.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2020 ---

We know that Neinhart could keep all the Haergon Historias with their full strength or even stronger than before, otherwise, how could Ikagura and Asuma tag Erza if they are enemies from 7 years ago? How could Zancrown be at advantage against Meredy? etc. Unless you are saying that the level of power doesn't change at all and even enemies from the middle of the manga in their weaker version (because they're dead) still strong enough to fight the Alvarez arc power level. Thus, Minerva with easy difficulty>>>> Elfman, once she was very above him in GMG.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2020 ---

"Elfman also obviously wins, even in GMG he would have given her a good fight given that he was Bacchus tier. Current Elfman wipes the floor with her, Madmole has better defense than any spriggan bar the top two, and by a huge amount, let alone when compared to a historia"

Bacchus was at the Erza tier 7 years before GMG or even before, probably he was in her level when she started to become famous. In GMG arc, he obviously wasn't at her level. He loosed to Elman, to Ichiya, and was one-shotted by Sting. GMG Minerva would beat Elfman and Bacchus at the same time.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2020 ---

1. It takes all the sea, we can see it in the image that you put here.

2. It's not and even if he was, it's not to defeat Mirajane and Elfman, it's to deal with the Fairy Tail strength. He is not referring to the Strauss, he said he would come back and settle the things with the Strauss another time. End.

3. Minerva got beat by Tartatos Erza, that beats Kyouka in her stronger form with his bare hands and that will rip the floor with Elfman with her bare hands, Erza HAS better feats than Elfman at Physical strength, it's not demeriting to be beaten by Erza. And Minerva wasn't even fighting properly, she was in an internal fight, Erza noted it and Minerva wasn't knocked out in the fight. You're wrong about Madmole being over Irene's and August's resistance level and even about what is saying about Elfman. Elfman didn't prove to hit Madmole on his own and never to be able to surpass his defense with only his strength, he fought alongside Mirajane. And fought Ajeel alongside Lisanna, who is faster than him, so your arguments aren't proven. He tried to hit a punch and Madmole and was hurt and his TO was undone. He wasn't portrayed competing with Ajeel in speed. It' a two x one battle, and he wasn't even being able to hit a speed-type robot that Lisanna defeated, so there's no way that his speed is closer to Ajeel's.

4. Neinhart was maintaining 3 Historias with an amount of their strength, once one is gone, the remaining two will be stronger because now Neinhart is only keeping 2. If only one left, this one will be very close to the full capacity. 50% Wahl would give a good fight against Ajeel because Wahl has endurance feats and his magic explores the opponent's weakness. The Ajeel version that fought Elfman didn't knock out Lisanna...

Elfman didn't hit strong as Erza, that Minerva fought and was hit. He isn't fast as Erza, that is the kind of speed that Minerva can handle a while in a fight. He isn't as intelligent as Minerva. He didn't have the answer to the territory magic. He didn't have even solo feats as Minerva's. So even if she didn't have a good damaged spell I still put that all her advantages in a long-time fight will defeat him, after all, she was able to knock out 50%Wahl and her magic did hurt Erza, who was already above Elfman's in endurance at GMG and still above his level nowadays, etc.

I never said that Fairy Law defeated the historia. I said that Natsu defeated Neinhart, so Minerva essentially exhausted herself fighting a Spriggan who was unconscious. Because histotia Wall is just Neinhart's magic. And if you think historia wall is tougher to beat than Ajeel, that makes Neinhart the strongest Spriggan lol.

The image I showed doesnt imply the temple was anywhere near the widthof the entire ocean. And Skullion is still closer to the temple and boat than Ermina.

Skullion was asking for help. And he was askijg for help because he couldnt beat people like Elfman and Mirajane. If he could low diff them like he did with Gray, he would have just done so.

Elfman has comparable physical strength to Tartaros Erza. Change my mind. He beat a Spriggan that gave Alvarez Erza a hard time, and keeps up with someone that matches current Natsu in physical strength. Natsu oneshots Jura-tiers like Bluenote and Spriggans like Jacob and Neinhart. Heck, he oneshotted Makarov with the same attack that Madmole no sold. GMG Minerva is tenrou Erza level at best. After Erza unlocked second origin, Erza outclassed her at every turn.

I never said Madmole had better durability than August and Irene. I said he has better durability than any human except August and Irene.

Lisanna is about as helpful as an exceed. She is basically fodder. Erza needed help to beat Ajeel too. She needed Bisca to snipe Ajeel with jupiter. he weakness bots mean very little. Gray was losing to a fire type weakness bot. Does that mean Gray cant beat any fire user? Elfman must have landed enough hits on Ajeel to beat him. The only alternative is for Lisanna to havr done the majroity of damage.

The MP that went into sustaining the Historia of God Serena is lost after it is destroyed. Neinhart cant just absorb that magic and redistribute it. Moreover, Neinhart got wrecked by Natsu. So he wasnt actively sustaining anything. He was unconsciously fighting Minerva. For all we know, Neinhart might have just started dreaming and stopped putting any effort into maintaining his historia.

 

[Seven777]

We know that Neinhart could keep all the Haergon Historias with their full strength or even stronger than before, otherwise, how could Ikagura and Asuma tag Erza if they are enemies from 7 years ago? How could Zancrown be at advantage against Meredy? etc. Unless you are saying that the level of power doesn't change at all and even enemies from the middle of the manga in their weaker version (because they're dead) still strong enough to fight the Alvarez arc power level. Thus, Minerva with easy difficulty>>>> Elfman, once she was very above him in GMG.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2020 ---

"Elfman also obviously wins, even in GMG he would have given her a good fight given that he was Bacchus tier. Current Elfman wipes the floor with her, Madmole has better defense than any spriggan bar the top two, and by a huge amount, let alone when compared to a historia"

Bacchus was at the Erza tier 7 years before GMG or even before, probably he was in her level when she started to become famous. In GMG arc, he obviously wasn't at her level. He loosed to Elman, to Ichiya, and was one-shotted by Sting. GMG Minerva would beat Elfman and Bacchus at the same time.

No we don't, at most we can assume Neinhart can bring them at full strength. As for why Ikaruga and Azuma can tag Erza, why wouldn't they lol? You're the one arguing that Ajeel and stuff weren't a huge jump from preskip shit like Kyoka, plus Erza was injured. Zancrow was also always above Meredy, she's had no feats since. Even this whole %30 thing is something we made up, but even if it's true and Neinhart is capable of bringing one of them out as %100, doesn't mean he did so for Wahl and Bloodman. we didn't see him power them up.
We also know that he had to hunt down Erza, Neinhart would have had to have kept power for himself, at least enough to take down Erza. So it could have been %30 for Wahl, %30 for Bloodman, %40+Enchantment for himself for his battle against Erza and that's being generous considering he's afraid of her.

Yeah, Bacchus was Erza tier 7 years before GMG, and Minerva was only that tier too. Minerva was only a match for Erza without Second Origin, effectively meaning she was 7 years ago Erza tier.

 

[Jhonatas Fernandes]

1. No we don't, at most we can assume Neinhart can bring them at full strength. As for why Ikaruga and Azuma can tag Erza, why wouldn't they lol? 2, You're the one arguing that Ajeel and stuff weren't a huge jump from preskip shit like Kyoka, 3.plus Erza was injured. Zancrow was also always above Meredy, she's had no feats since. Even this whole %30 thing is something we made up, but even if it's true and Neinhart is capable of bringing one of them out as %100, doesn't mean he did so for Wahl and Bloodman. 4. we didn't see him power them up.
5.We also know that he had to hunt down Erza, Neinhart would have had to have kept power for himself, at least enough to take down Erza. So it could have been %30 for Wahl, %30 for Bloodman, %40+Enchantment for himself for his battle against Erza and that's being generous considering he's afraid of her.

Yeah, Bacchus was Erza tier 7 years before GMG, and Minerva was only that tier too. Minerva was only a match for Erza without Second Origin, effectively meaning she was 7 years ago Erza tier.

1. Yeah, we can assume.
2. Exactly because just one year has passed, and never was stated that Erza was training very hard during all the year like Natsu.
3. And Erza being injured really change anything? Do you need that I remember you how injured she was when defeated Minerva or Kyouka or made Irene undo her dragon form? lol There's NO WAY that Azuma and Ikagura could tag Erza if they weren't in their full strength (or even stronger thanks to Neinhart MP level).
4. Because didn't need it. He said that he was maintaining the Historias, so when he got a boost in his MP, his summons got stronger too.
5. It's not like that. It's not that he reserves some MP for him, his MP is expended to keep the Historias on the battlefield, if he cast magic to fight, it's fine, he can use all the magic that he wants, the only thing is that the time that his summons will keep in the battlefield will be diminished proportionally (because Neinhart MP will be drained faster). Anyway, he only used one spell against Natsu, Brandish e co.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2020 ---

1.I never said that Fairy Law defeated the historia. I said that Natsu defeated Neinhart, so Minerva essentially exhausted herself fighting a Spriggan who was unconscious. Because histotia Wall is just Neinhart's magic. 2. And if you think historia wall is tougher to beat than Ajeel, that makes Neinhart the strongest Spriggan lol.

3. The image I showed doesnt imply the temple was anywhere near the widthof the entire ocean. And Skullion is still closer to the temple and boat than Ermina.

4. Skullion was asking for help. And he was askijg for help because he couldnt beat people like Elfman and Mirajane. If he could low diff them like he did with Gray, he would have just done so.

5.. Elfman has comparable physical strength to Tartaros Erza. Change my mind. He beat a Spriggan that gave Alvarez Erza a hard time, and keeps up with someone that matches current Natsu in physical strength. Natsu oneshots Jura-tiers like Bluenote and Spriggans like Jacob and Neinhart. Heck, he oneshotted Makarov with the same attack that Madmole no sold. GMG Minerva is tenrou Erza level at best. After Erza unlocked second origin, Erza outclassed her at every turn.

I never said Madmole had better durability than August and Irene. I said he has better durability than any human except August and Irene.

6. Lisanna is about as helpful as an exceed. She is basically fodder. Erza needed help to beat Ajeel too. She needed Bisca to snipe Ajeel with jupiter. he weakness bots mean very little. Gray was losing to a fire type weakness bot. Does that mean Gray cant beat any fire user? Elfman must have landed enough hits on Ajeel to beat him. The only alternative is for Lisanna to havr done the majroity of damage.

7. The MP that went into sustaining the Historia of God Serena is lost after it is destroyed. Neinhart cant just absorb that magic and redistribute it. Moreover, Neinhart got wrecked by Natsu. So he wasnt actively sustaining anything. He was unconsciously fighting Minerva. For all we know, Neinhart might have just started dreaming and stopped putting any effort into maintaining his historia.

1/7. Ok, first prove that Neinhart being unconscious made the Historias weaker. Did Minerva and Rogue said that they suddenly got weaker? No. There's no statement about that. You even know that if Neinhart didn't open his eyes a few while after his defeat like Larcade, who was defeated by Sting but opens his eyes a short time after and starts to crawl until the Fairy Tail guild. The Historias didn't disappear and there's no statement that they suddenly got weaker, so they keep fight normally (maybe Irene's strength enchantment used on Neinhart allowed that).

2. No. The problem is that Ajeel didn't prove to have good endurance and his magic it's good but not so hax as the magic of other Spriggans. Brandish, Dimaria, probably Jacob, could easily defetead Neinhart and his Historias, and of course that Neinhart can't defeat Larcade, Irene and August, lol. Because of his magic, Ajeel gets stronger when fights in a scenario with sand, like a desert, etc.

3. Yeah, it shows that the temple covers all the sea in height.

4. Nope. I'll not repeat all the time: Diablos will be sent stronger members because Kyria and Wraith were defeated and FT overall is strong than their expected.

5. Ajeel gave hard time to Erza because he can transform all weapons that touch his body into sand. He counters her fight style. He didn't prove to tank her physical strength. When Elfman tried to hit Madmole what happened is that (the image):
So I will not buy this fanfic that his strength >> Madmole defense. You need to prove to me that he hurt him by himself and not with Mirajane's help (in a Unison Attack for example).

6. Exceeds can be very useful to evade some attacks and Lisanna could be a diversion that distracts Ajeel and permit Elfman, who is slow, to hit the foe. Anyway, Erza needed help because Ajeel used Sand World, something that he didn't use against Elfman, maybe he wasn't strong enough yeat against the Strauss? Who knows. The thing is that Ajeel wasn't even able to knock out the ''fodder'', so he wasn't able to hit any strong spell.

 

[Seven777]

1. Yeah, we can assume.
2. Exactly because just one year has passed, and never was stated that Erza was training very hard during all the year like Natsu.
3. And Erza being injured really change anything? Do you need that I remember you how injured she was when defeated Minerva or Kyouka or made Irene undo her dragon form? lol There's NO WAY that Azuma and Ikagura could tag Erza if they weren't in their full strength (or even stronger thanks to Neinhart MP level).
4. Because didn't need it. He said that he was maintaining the Historias, so when he got a boost in his MP, his summons got stronger too.
5. It's not like that. It's not that he reserves some MP for him, his MP is expended to keep the Historias on the battlefield, if he cast magic to fight, it's fine, he can use all the magic that he wants, the only thing is that the time that his summons will keep in the battlefield will be diminished proportionally (because Neinhart MP will be drained faster). Anyway, he only used one spell against Natsu, Brandish e co.

1. Alright
2. Yeah, so there's no problem with Ikagura and Azuma doing the same
3. Azuma said it changes things so it changes things. Gildarts said being dead weakened God Serena, so being dead weakened him. This is the manga speaking, not me.
4. Maintaining them =/= boosting strength when one dies. One dying just means it isn't as much of a struggle to maintain them.
5. You're misunderstanding me, the %40 for Erza isn't something that's draining him, it's magic that he's intentionally saving for himself in order to battle Erza, he can't afford to power up Bloodman and Wahl because he can't risk draining too much of his magic, he needs it to defeat Erza.
In the first place, the fact that he can maintain all 3 and doesn't instantly run out of mana means he's not even giving them all of his mana, he could be spending more on them if he wanted to it would just drain him faster. Besides, instead of redistributing his strength why would he not just summon God Serena again? That was his strategy before, why power up Bloodman and Wahl when he could just send GS to help? Either Axiomas' old theory was right, the magic spent on a historia doesn't just return to him, he's already spent it, he no longer had the power to summon God Serena, which means he no longer had the power to buff Wahl and Bloodman, or, what I said is true, he was saving his strength for a battle with Erza.
6. Either way, nothing in the manga even suggests Wahl and Bloodman were powered up and even if they were, defeating them is still less impressive than beating Ajeel, because they would only be %50 spriggan tier, while Elfman beat a %100 spriggan tier with only one ally that is significantly weaker than he is.

 

[Jhonatas Fernandes]

1. Alright
2. Yeah, so there's no problem with Ikagura and Azuma doing the same
3. Azuma said it changes things so it changes things. Gildarts said being dead weakened God Serena, so being dead weakened him. This is the manga speaking, not me.
4. Maintaining them =/= boosting strength when one dies. One dying just means it isn't as much of a struggle to maintain them.
5. You're misunderstanding me, the %40 for Erza isn't something that's draining him, it's magic that he's intentionally saving for himself in order to battle Erza, he can't afford to power up Bloodman and Wahl because he can't risk draining too much of his magic, he needs it to defeat Erza.
In the first place, the fact that he can maintain all 3 and doesn't instantly run out of mana means he's not even giving them all of his mana, he could be spending more on them if he wanted to it would just drain him faster. Besides, instead of redistributing his strength why would he not just summon God Serena again? That was his strategy before, why power up Bloodman and Wahl when he could just send GS to help? Either Axiomas' old theory was right, the magic spent on a historia doesn't just return to him, he's already spent it, he no longer had the power to summon God Serena, which means he no longer had the power to buff Wahl and Bloodman, or, what I said is true, he was saving his strength for a battle with Erza.
6. Either way, nothing in the manga even suggests Wahl and Bloodman were powered up and even if they were, defeating them is still less impressive than beating Ajeel, because they would only be %50 spriggan tier, while Elfman beat a %100 spriggan tier with only one ally that is significantly weaker than he is.

So many questions.
- We don't know how time Neinhart's need to ''summon'' again an Historia that is defeated.
- We know that he is keeping the Historias on the battlefield through his MP, so when he got a huge boost at MP, his summons get stronger too. Lucy, at GMG arc, trained his MP to improve his magic.
- Juvia fought Keith in the past and didn't say that he was weaker, Erza didn't say that Kyouka, Ikagura, etc were weaker, etc. So I will assume that only God Serena was weaker, once that the same wasn't stated by Wahl and Bloodman. Okay then, Bloodman and Wahl were 100% and God Serena was weaker, ok? LOL
Anyway, even in his weak state, God Serena's MP and strength were praised by the FT members, even Erza praised her strength, so if the one that defeated Ajeel was recognizing the Historia strength they weren't far from Ajeel's strength. Rember that August said that Ajeel would be one shotted by Laxus. Thus, Elfman's feat isn't above Minerva's.

 

[Seven777]

So many questions.
- We don't know how time Neinhart's need to ''summon'' again an Historia that is defeated.
- We know that he is keeping the Historias on the battlefield through his MP, so when he got a huge boost at MP, his summons get stronger too. Lucy, at GMG arc, trained his MP to improve his magic.
- Juvia fought Keith in the past and didn't say that he was weaker, Erza didn't say that Kyouka, Ikagura, etc were weaker, etc. So I will assume that only God Serena was weaker, once that the same wasn't stated by Wahl and Bloodman. Okay then, Bloodman and Wahl were 100% and God Serena was weaker, ok? LOL
Anyway, even in his weak state, God Serena's MP and strength were praised by the FT members, even Erza praised her strength, so if the one that defeated Ajeel was recognizing the Historia strength they weren't far from Ajeel's strength. Rember that August said that Ajeel would be one shotted by Laxus. Thus, Elfman's feat isn't above Minerva's.

-Sure, because we're working almost entirely with assumptions.
-If he's not keeping the Historias on the battlefield through his MP then one of them dying isn't going to boost the others.
-So now you're say historia's are like Lucy's spirits lol? Oh how the tables have turned haha.
-No, Minerva and Rogue noticed their "dead" magic too, alluding to Gildart's statement, so like God Serena they are weaker i'm afraid.
-Sure, Erza praised Bacchus too . Besides, beating Ajeel isn't even his best feat, stalemating Madmole is.
-Elfman has always been more or less Minerva tier, now he's just risen above due to him being more relevant, it's sad, but it's true. But hey, at least Minerva didn't get the Jura treatment lol

 

[grey matter]

Nope. It was never stated that any Historias beside the Spriggans were weaker than their live version. Actually only God Serena was said to be very weaker than his original self (by Gildarts). We can only assume that is because the Spriggans are strong as Neinhart, so Neinhart can only keep 1 Spriggan with 100% of power and, since he needed to conjure 3, the power was divided. Once one is gone, the MP will split for two.

If Lucy's MP is all drained her Spirits will be gone. If Lucy conjures 3 Spirits her MP will be drained faster than if she only fights with 2.
The H-Spriggans got stronger with 2 of them keeeping in the Battlefield.

While the first part is true, I don't think the magic gets transferred to other summons from Neinhart, if one summon goes down. Nothing in the manga suggested that the MP returned to Neinhart, or even if it did, he transferred it to the other 2 Spriggan.

When Lucy's summons get defeated, the MP she used to summon them doesn't return to her fully, in fact most of the MP used to summon them gets dissipated. Which is why Lucy tired out against Angel, after summoning 2 or 3 spirits. The same is applicable to Neinhart as well.

Anyway, even in his weak state, God Serena's MP and strength were praised by the FT members, even Erza praised her strength, so if the one that defeated Ajeel was recognizing the Historia strength they weren't far from Ajeel's strength. Rember that August said that Ajeel would be one shotted by Laxus. Thus, Elfman's feat isn't above Minerva's.

??
What you said applies to only historia of God Serena lmao. GS himself may be far superior to Ajeel, but that doesn't mean Wahl is lol. It's portrayed that God Serena is in Gildarts tier when alive, if you buy it. While Wahl got killed by a charged spell from Laxus, who is significantly below Gildarts.
That just means that not all Spriggans are equal in power level.

Ok, maybe Ajeel could be destroyed by a powered up spell from Laxus. The same is applicable to Wahl as well, who got destroyed by a powerup up spell from Laxus once he bypassed the immunity. So, this doesn't prove that Wahl > Ajeel. One was probably gonna get rekt by Laxus if we believe August, while other got killed by Laxus.

Elfman had enough firepower to defeat Ajeel. Minverva, at best, high-extreme diff'd Historia Wahl; and at worst was losing before Wahl going down because of fodderhart getting rekt. Even taking the best case scenario, she defeated a heavily nerfed Spriggan. While Elfman defeated a full power Spriggan.

Elfman > Minerva. She's yesterday's news. Defeating a full power Spriggan and stalemating a DE >> anything Minverva has done.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 31, 2020 ---

-Elfman has always been more or less Minerva tier, now he's just risen above due to him being more relevant, it's sad, but it's true. But hey, at least Minerva didn't get the Jura treatment lol

Actually she did lol. Got rekt by Bradman at full power and got paraded while crucified

 

[Jhonatas Fernandes]

-Sure, because we're working almost entirely with assumptions.
-If he's not keeping the Historias on the battlefield through his MP then one of them dying isn't going to boost the others.
-So now you're say historia's are like Lucy's spirits lol? Oh how the tables have turned haha.
-No, Minerva and Rogue noticed their "dead" magic too, alluding to Gildart's statement, so like God Serena they are weaker i'm afraid.
-Sure, Erza praised Bacchus too . Besides, beating Ajeel isn't even his best feat, stalemating Madmole is.
-Elfman has always been more or less Minerva tier, now he's just risen above due to him being more relevant, it's sad, but it's true. But hey, at least Minerva didn't get the Jura treatment lol

- But of course, he is keeping the Historias through MP.
- But it's similar to Lucy's magic with the difference that some of his summons, The Spriggans Historias, are so strong that he can't keep more than 1 in the full strength. Two is 50%, three is 33,3%, etc.
- Everyone noted that their enemies were dead, but anyone besides Gildarts said that they got weeker than their live version. And Since Gildarts was able to endure a fight against August, who is the strongest one, and that Larcade said that is in another level comparing the rest of the Spriggans and that Brandish said that any Spriggan besides Irene could stand against him a fight, God Serena Historias was really so weak or Gildarts just think that should be a lot stronger (because He remembered that in the past they should be equals in level)? Erza was in a defensive mode surrounded by H-Serena's magic and stating that he is strong, Juvia and Wendy praised his magic level too.
- Erza can praise anyone. Bacchus was on her level in the past, so of course, he was strong back then. At the GMG, he still got some skills but isn't so strong as the rank S mages in the tournament.
- He never was Minerva's tier. Elfman never was portrayed to really tag Erza in a fight.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 31, 2020 ---

While the first part is true, I don't think the magic gets transferred to other summons from Neinhart, if one summon goes down. Nothing in the manga suggested that the MP returned to Neinhart, or even if it did, he transferred it to the other 2 Spriggan.

When Lucy's summons get defeated, the MP she used to summon them doesn't return to her fully, in fact most of the MP used to summon them gets dissipated. Which is why Lucy tired out against Angel, after summoning 2 or 3 spirits. The same is applicable to Neinhart as well.



??
What you said applies to only historia of God Serena lmao. GS himself may be far superior to Ajeel, but that doesn't mean Wahl is lol. It's portrayed that God Serena is in Gildarts tier when alive, if you buy it. While Wahl got killed by a charged spell from Laxus, who is significantly below Gildarts.
That just means that not all Spriggans are equal in power level.

Ok, maybe Ajeel could be destroyed by a powered up spell from Laxus. The same is applicable to Wahl as well, who got destroyed by a powerup up spell from Laxus once he bypassed the immunity. So, this doesn't prove that Wahl > Ajeel. One was probably gonna get rekt by Laxus if we believe August, while other got killed by Laxus.

Elfman had enough firepower to defeat Ajeel. Minverva, at best, high-extreme diff'd Historia Wahl; and at worst was losing before Wahl going down because of fodderhart getting rekt. Even taking the best case scenario, she defeated a heavily nerfed Spriggan. While Elfman defeated a full power Spriggan.

Elfman > Minerva. She's yesterday's news. Defeating a full power Spriggan and stalemating a DE >> anything Minverva has done.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 31, 2020 ---

Actually she did lol. Got rekt by Bradman at full power and got paraded while crucified

- It's not that the magic is transferred. LOL
- It's is: He can, probably, keep just 1 Historia Spriggan with 100% of strength in the battlefield, he needed three, so their power was divided by 3. One was down, now he is keeping just two, the power is divided by two. AND he received a boost in MP. MP is what makes the summons stronger. A summoner mage provides MP to him summon fight. If Lucy's Spirits were invoked by someone stronger than Gildarts, they will be a lot stronger. When Neinhart's was boosted in MP, their summon became stronger. Is it really a need to keep this topic? It's so obvious. A Summoner always keeps his summons through MP.
- God Serena was at the same level as Gildarts in the past, but Gildarts endured a fight against August, the strongest Spriggan, so of course, Gildarts is above GS. Laxus needed to create lightning stronger than his natural lighting to defeat, but Wahl endured Laxus's physical strength easily. August said that Ajeel would die by a casual long-range Laxus attack. Wahl has immunity to the lighting but tanked the physical attacks, while Ajeel was defeated by Elfman, who is below Laxus level and has less physical feats than him. Wahl > Ajeel, besides that, his magic could be troublesome to Ajeel. It was never stated that GS is above a normal Spriggal level, so if he still very strong, the others Historias would still too.
- Ajeel didn't have endurance feats, so defeat him isn't so good. Some Spriggans were oneshoted by casual attacks (Jacob, Neinhart, Invel was ripped by Gray's physical strenght, etc), Wahl has endurance feats, so defeteat him is better.

Minerva >>>>> Elfman. Smarter, faster, showed able to endurance strong physical attacks for a while, has a barrier spell. He can't touch her, will be defetead by her territory magic.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2020 ---

Actually she did lol. Got rekt by Bradman at full power and got paraded while crucified

Actually, all the Three Spriggans that were in the north work to defeat the Sabertooth and Blue Pegasus and crucified them. Yukino recognized Larcade from the North front and she even recognized Irene's voice, saying ''Is that strong wizard that was in the north...''
Rogue said to Gajeel ''They have three monsters on their side".

 

[Seven777]

- But of course, he is keeping the Historias through MP.
- But it's similar to Lucy's magic with the difference that some of his summons, The Spriggans Historias, are so strong that he can't keep more than 1 in the full strength. Two is 50%, three is 33,3%, etc.
- Everyone noted that their enemies were dead, but anyone besides Gildarts said that they got weeker than their live version. And Since Gildarts was able to endure a fight against August, who is the strongest one, and that Larcade said that is in another level comparing the rest of the Spriggans and that Brandish said that any Spriggan besides Irene could stand against him a fight, God Serena Historias was really so weak or Gildarts just think that should be a lot stronger (because He remembered that in the past they should be equals in level)? Erza was in a defensive mode surrounded by H-Serena's magic and stating that he is strong, Juvia and Wendy praised his magic level too.
- Erza can praise anyone. Bacchus was on her level in the past, so of course, he was strong back then. At the GMG, he still got some skills but isn't so strong as the rank S mages in the tournament.
- He never was Minerva's tier. Elfman never was portrayed to really tag Erza in a fight.

- Most magic does work that way, yes.
- How is that similar to Lucy's summons? Her summons don't get stronger the less she has
- Ha, yeah, Juvia and Wendy were praising his magic while effortlessly tanking it, taking virtually no damage lol.
- Yes, Erza can praise anyone, and she does praise everyone. As for Bacchus, he's more or less Minerva tier, Minerva was only a match for preskip Erza
- He beat Bacchus, Bacchus was preskip Erza tier. Elfman ain't a main but he has always been powerful.

 

[Kiki]

this thread is on fire and has 6 pages, but there are 2 voters only? interesting haha

 

[CaptainTorch]

this thread is on fire and has 6 pages, but there are 2 voters only? interesting haha

Definitely not because I originally forgot to add the poll

 

[Jhonatas Fernandes]

- Most magic does work that way, yes.
- How is that similar to Lucy's summons? Her summons don't get stronger the less she has
- Ha, yeah, Juvia and Wendy were praising his magic while effortlessly tanking it, taking virtually no damage lol.
- Yes, Erza can praise anyone, and she does praise everyone. As for Bacchus, he's more or less Minerva tier, Minerva was only a match for preskip Erza
- He beat Bacchus, Bacchus was preskip Erza tier. Elfman ain't a main but he has always been powerful.

- It's similar to maintaining the summon through MP, after all, is the ONLY THING that a summoner can offer in this kind of magic. Why are you ignoring that Neinhart received a boost in MP? He even said that his MP was outstripped his limits and Brandish was shocked thinking "He is immune to my magic now? How strong has Irene made him?"
- Juvia was saying that his water was involved with great MP. GS just launched water (burned water), it was a spell to restrict the opponents and not to hurt them, he launched an attack by his mouth to hurt FT guild members and Gildarts protected it. There was a shockwave made by the first physical shock between GS and Gildarts, indicating how strong they are: '' What's with this ridiculously strong magic?"
- Bacchus wasn't Minerva tier, he was defeated by Ichiya and one-shotted by Sting. Minerva was defeated by Erza's strongest armor, an armor that needs a high amount of MP to be used. And even if Bacchus was close to her (what he isn't) the way that he and Minerva fight counts. Bacchus, who only fights with his bare hands, is a good match to someone who can change into the Lizard beast, this way, even if Elfman can't land a hit on him, he can inflict damage. The Lizard wouldn't work on Minerva.

Anyway; Minerva, overall, isn't a good match to Elfman's magic and fight style. So, as said before, she would win.

 

[Seven777]

- It's similar to maintaining the summon through MP, after all, is the ONLY THING that a summoner can offer in this kind of magic. Why are you ignoring that Neinhart received a boost in MP? He even said that his MP was outstripped his limits and Brandish was shocked thinking "He is immune to my magic now? How strong has Irene made him?"
- Juvia was saying that his water was involved with great MP. GS just launched water (burned water), it was a spell to restrict the opponents and not to hurt them, he launched an attack by his mouth to hurt FT guild members and Gildarts protected it. There was a shockwave made by the first physical shock between GS and Gildarts, indicating how strong they are: '' What's with this ridiculously strong magic?"
- Bacchus wasn't Minerva tier, he was defeated by Ichiya and one-shotted by Sting. Minerva was defeated by Erza's strongest armor, an armor that needs a high amount of MP to be used. And even if Bacchus was close to her (what he isn't) the way that he and Minerva fight counts. Bacchus, who only fights with his bare hands, is a good match to someone who can change into the Lizard beast, this way, even if Elfman can't land a hit on him, he can inflict damage. The Lizard wouldn't work on Minerva.

Anyway; Minerva, overall, isn't a good match to Elfman's magic and fight style. So, as said before, she would win.

-Why do you ignore that Neinhart was already unconscious when Minerva won the fight?
-Ha, sure, a spell not to hurt them, good one. Juvia tanked two of God Serena's spells at the same time, GS needed 3 attacks just to tickle the likes of Juvia lol. Oh, and Juvia is probably above Minerva now too, though like Elfman she's was already decently close to that level even in GMG.
-Bacchus was preskip Erza tier, said so yourself. Minerva is also preskip Erza tier. As for the way they fight, sure, i didn't say Elfman would win, I said he was always on her tier. Obviously now he's risen above.

Yeah, Minerva overall is a very bad match for Elfman, and that would matter.... if she was actually in his weightclass. Elfman at this point though is just too far above her for that to matter, Advantage or not, Elfman wins

 

[Jhonatas Fernandes]

-Why do you ignore that Neinhart was already unconscious when Minerva won the fight?
-Ha, sure, a spell not to hurt them, good one. Juvia tanked two of God Serena's spells at the same time, GS needed 3 attacks just to tickle the likes of Juvia lol. Oh, and Juvia is probably above Minerva now too, though like Elfman she's was already decently close to that level even in GMG.
-Bacchus was preskip Erza tier, said so yourself. Minerva is also preskip Erza tier. As for the way they fight, sure, i didn't say Elfman would win, I said he was always on her tier. Obviously now he's risen above.

Yeah, Minerva overall is a very bad match for Elfman, and that would matter.... if she was actually in his weightclass. Elfman at this point though is just too far above her for that to matter, Advantage or not, Elfman wins

- Because it doesn't change his MP boost and there was no statement about the Historias becoming weaker after Neinhart's defeats...?
- ''Juvia tanked'' and "Juvia above Minerva", lol,
- Bacchus was Erza's level 7 years before X791, Minerva was around ''Erza's level in X791, when Erza used the second origin of power to defeat her.
- He isn't above her. He only has resistance and strength. She used to fight Erza, who has better resistance and strength feats. Minerva > Elfman.