American Politics

[shionoro]

There definitely are members of congress and senate who are THAT insane. It's not even an unusual amount of crazy in the republican party for the past 10 years... Add to that the simple fact that law enforcement within the US is ideologically on the right wing... which I really can't stress enough, has gone beyond insane. Over the past few years it has become increasingly common to hear right wingers and conspiracy theorists go on about executing people. This is not a joke, it's not satire, it's NEVER sarcasm, they absolutely mean every execution they mention. ALSO you have to consider that a month before the election trump fired a bunch of big shots in the.... department of defense IIRC and replaced them with loyalist. Now, given how trump usually operates the most likely scenario is that the actual level of cooperation was not specially high among these people. I'd bet it look more like trump calling these insane people and tell them who the other insane people who think like them are. But since these people are insane anyways the coup ended up being just a massive stupid pizzagate.

I would to point out tho that the people who stopped this were the sane ones, not just the ineptitude of the loonies.

Think of kavanaugh, Gorsuch and ACB what you will (certainly, I think kavanaugh and ACB should not sit there), but they did not support Trump overturning the election. Nor did the countless republican judges that were given all these courtcases (including lots of cases about voter suppression).

Simlarly, the military DIDN'T support this coup. Trump was able to exchange enough people to delay the response, but in the end, the response came.

And in the end fox news did NOT endorse trump's claims, at least not outside of their opinion bits. They called the election for Biden.

These 3 things mattered a lot. I think had one of them played out differently, that coup might have been successful.

 

[xi0]

Think of kavanaugh, Gorsuch and ACB what you will (certainly, I think kavanaugh and ACB should not sit there), but they did not support Trump overturning the election.

We don't know what they support because the SC as a body refused to hear cases before the inauguration. That is not necessarily an endorsement, as the rejections were without comment or noted dissent.

And in the end fox news did NOT endorse trump's claims, at least not outside of their opinion bits. They called the election for Biden.

They endorse outlandish claims by having those opinions bits on air and without retraction. Their Decision Desk works independently, and is quite good. But that doesn't change what that network traffics in - lies and whataboutisms.

 

[kkck]

I would to point out tho that the people who stopped this were the sane ones, not just the ineptitude of the loonies.

Think of kavanaugh, Gorsuch and ACB what you will (certainly, I think kavanaugh and ACB should not sit there), but they did not support Trump overturning the election. Nor did the countless republican judges that were given all these courtcases (including lots of cases about voter suppression).

Similarly, the military DIDN'T support this coup. Trump was able to exchange enough people to delay the response, but in the end, the response came.

And in the end fox news did NOT endorse trump's claims, at least not outside of their opinion bits. They called the election for Biden.

These 3 things mattered a lot. I think had one of them played out differently, that coup might have been successful.

I think ineptitude probably played a bigger role in this than the sane people. I mean, just look at how close the insurgents got to elected official. They were pretty damn close to actually catching people.

I don't think more traditional republicans support this of course. Those who actually care about Christianity fiscal, responsibility and such. BUT it is important to stress that even the most genuine and principled conservative folk around enabled trump and have their own bit of blame in this.

Obviously no military or law enforcement agency endorsed this. That's not in question. The issue is that within the military and law enforcement primarily draws in people from the right wing and as we know a substantial part of it has simply gone insane. Which is why the response to the protest was so inept and in some cases there was a form of inept cooperation. As a side note, this I would argue is pretty much the reason of the disparity between how law enforcement reacts to right wing and left wing protests.

Oh goody, for news draws the line at ending democracy...

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Also worth noting, in spite of all the shit that has transpired trump's approval has not significantly gone down... It has gone down but it's not even the lowest it has ever been and it's more or less about comparable to what it has been through his presidency. Basically, republican's still got trump's back... That said, I do expect trump to go lower than it shows right now. But he is still insanely popular among republicans.

 

[M3J]

On another note: The coup was more dangerous than I have initially thought.
At first, i dismissed the claims that the rioters had help from inside (and some of it was unfounded, blabla selfie, blabla gate.).

However, now there is reason to believe that ayanna Presley's panic button (in her office) was ripped out BEFORE the rioters entered and they knew the locations of the places they wanted to go to. This was prepared.
Trump witholding special forces and them taking a long time to arrive was prepared.

Before I thought it was a situation of lacking security because they underestimated the craziness and rioters who took the opportunity they had after trump aimlessly fired them on.

But right now, I think we actually were just one step away from senators and congresspeople dying and being abducted and that somebody who is not a grunt wanted that scenario to happen.

Of course they did. Politicians like Boebler or whoever were tweeting out locations of Dem politicians during the riots, even, and speeches like Cruz and Trump were basically inciting violence.




These are the people you want to forgive and be friends with

 

[shionoro]

These are the people you want to forgive and be friends with

I did not say friends. I said you gotta live with them. What is the alternative? Jail them all? Civil war?
If you dont like my stance of 'somehow you gotta find ways to include these people into society again', then i would really ask what else there is to do?

 

[ninjabot]

I did not say friends. I said you gotta live with them. What is the alternative? Jail them all? Civil war?
If you dont like my stance of 'somehow you gotta find ways to include these people into society again', then i would really ask what else there is to do?

We already live with them. Don't mistake our online personas with how we act in our real lives. It's not like we run around chasing people that wear MAGA hats and assault them with pitchforks and torches. We just ignore them. Tolerance is just leaving people to their own devices despite our personal feelings.

EDIT: For example, I live in the South, and every house on my way to work every morning has a Trump/Pence sign on it's lawn. I've got co-workers that wear MAGA hats and complain about Trump Derangement Syndrome. I haven't gotten into an argument with any of them (well, one of them. But that was over religion, not politics lmfao).

 

[kkck]

I did not say friends. I said you gotta live with them. What is the alternative? Jail them all? Civil war?
If you dont like my stance of 'somehow you gotta find ways to include these people into society again', then i would really ask what else there is to do?

I would maintain my stance, there is nothing to do here other than hope they realize their cult it insane before they burn everything to the ground. And like ninja said, living with them is already what is happening. As for other stuff to do.. Welp, pointing out their insane conspiracy theories are not true (it's kinda pointless but there is no reason to not fight back either) and when the time comes crushing them at the polls are the healthiest options.

As for the civil war... the right wing is armed to the teeth while the left wing simply isn't. It wouldn't be much of a war.

 

[ninjabot]

As for the civil war... the right wing is armed to the teeth while the left wing simply isn't. It wouldn't be much of a war.

Well it wouldn't just be right vs. left, it'd be right vs. left and the government. And Uncle Sam's got tanks and aircrafts so.... Billy Bob and his son he had with his cousingirlfriend aren't gonna do much with their little AR-15s.

 

[kkck]

Well it wouldn't just be right vs. left, it'd be right vs. left and the government. And Uncle Sam's got tanks and aircrafts so.... Billy Bob and his son he had with his cousingirlfriend aren't gonna do much with their little AR-15s.

Ah, yeah, the army and law enforcement are probably dying to fight right wingers alongside the left....

 

[M3J]

I did not say friends. I said you gotta live with them. What is the alternative? Jail them all? Civil war?
If you dont like my stance of 'somehow you gotta find ways to include these people into society again', then i would really ask what else there is to do?

We live with them, what more do you want? They should be excluded and probably jailed, depending on their actions. Many anti-Trumpers don't even feel comfortable living with them, even, due to their violence and brainwashing. I know I don't, and the Capitol riot proved why.

These people are already included in the society, you can't get rid of them. They're white supremacists living in a country that's catered for white supremacy, and Trump supporters come from all walks of life, they're not just dumb hillbillies or blue collar workers. Many rioters are being punished, but their punishment seems to be light compared to what peaceful BLM protesters got.

Yours and Biden's stance is pretty shitty, and from the given context, it seems like neither of you support punishing the people who cause issues and are divisive. Anyone who wants healing has to start with punishing these people, first.

 

[shionoro]

What i say is not about you personally but about political measures.

There need to be political measures to reintegrate the fans of trump and other conspiracy theorists into your society again. That is not about you as a person but about what the country needs to do.
And right now, I think you need to come up with strategies about how to do that. Because clearly, just ignoring them does not work. And i am not sure banning their social media and some of their leaders will be enough.

 

[hokageji]

There need to be political measures to reintegrate the fans of trump and other conspiracy theorists into your society again. That is not about you as a person but about what the country needs to do.
And right now, I think you need to come up with strategies about how to do that. Because clearly, just ignoring them does not work. And i am not sure banning their social media and some of their leaders will be enough.

I get your sentiment and agree with you. This needs to be a country for everyone and even get why Biden was the best choice for that reason. But the pont is how. Just Trump getting banned is considered as silencing conservative voices. A political measure to integrate them to society will be equated to the culture camps that China holds for Uyghur muslims. The right already thinks of Biden's pockets filled with Chinese money.

And i did see numbers discussed earlier, the people who support Trump may be a large number but the people who will support or act upon the violence at Capitol is a much smaller number. How small? Smaller than colored people living in poverty.
Honestly speaking, the country has bigger problems. COVID relief, which Biden already address 1.9 trillion. How do you make black people feel safe, how do you make sure jobs will be available in years to come, specially since automation is on the rise. So many things.

The alt right (lets just call it that) have the same issues (albeit much milder implications) that the rest of the middle class in the country have. Their fear lies that their issues are not discussed but the right wing media portrays like they are being victimized. And the media caters to the rich, so their division and polarization just goes stronger.

These things will change, America has survived worse and will survive this. But lets not pretend their issues are the most important to address....

 

[ninjabot]

Ah, yeah, the army and law enforcement are probably dying to fight right wingers alongside the left....

Lol, I only say that because the government IS the left right now. Republicans are famously anti "big government", and since it's made up of Democrats now that means they're all targets.

 

[M3J]

What i say is not about you personally but about political measures.

There need to be political measures to reintegrate the fans of trump and other conspiracy theorists into your society again. That is not about you as a person but about what the country needs to do.
And right now, I think you need to come up with strategies about how to do that. Because clearly, just ignoring them does not work. And i am not sure banning their social media and some of their leaders will be enough.

Obviously. I don't care though, they don't need to be reintegrated, not until they're punished and start seeing sense and stop being violent. I've been talking about the country as a whole, not myself, and there's no need for them to even live freely here. Jail or deportation to a country where they think they'll fit in.

 

[hokageji]

Jail or deportation to a country where they think they'll fit in.

lmao...
yikes... i cant help but giggle at that as i have been judged in the same manner....

 

[kkck]

Lol, I only say that because the government IS the left right now. Republicans are famously anti "big government", and since it's made up of Democrats now that means they're all targets.

You mean as if democrats controlling the house, senate and presidency? I mean, there are still a lot of republicans in the house and senate, let alone biden making a point of cooperating with them.

And even then, the military and law enforcement members are mostly on the right wing side of the spectrum as far as I know.

 

[hokageji]

And even then, the military and law enforcement members are mostly on the right wing side of the spectrum as far as I know.

yea, but they dont make the decisions, they just follow them. The only problem is the supreme court justices which makes it really hard for the democrats.

 

[ninjabot]

You mean as if democrats controlling the house, senate and presidency? I mean, there are still a lot of republicans in the house and senate, let alone biden making a point of cooperating with them.

And even then, the military and law enforcement members are mostly on the right wing side of the spectrum as far as I know.

That's fixable by Biden and Kamala "draining the swamp", so to speak, and basically doing the same stuff Trump did. Put loyalists in positions of power.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Regardless, I'm not looking forward to a civil war. I'm just saying it'll end the same way it did the first time due to overwhelming numbers and resources.

 

[kkck]

That's fixable by Biden and Kamala "draining the swamp", so to speak, and basically doing the same stuff Trump did. Put loyalists in positions of power.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Regardless, I'm not looking forward to a civil war. I'm just saying it'll end the same way it did the first time due to overwhelming numbers and resources.

Doing that is inherently corrupt and biden should definitely stay away from that kind of trumpism. Also, besides my point. My point was about regular soldiers and police officers. And even then, generals and higher ranking members of these organizations will probably lean conservative as well.

 

[shionoro]

I think Biden was pretty smart to not give in to the urges of some parts of the democrat party and flat out endorse things like court packing or putting only democrats into positions of power.
I could understand that impulse, but purging the swamp (draining wont be enough) will require the help of those republicans who have a backbone.

And that is necessary right now. People like Ted Cruz must not go out of this unscathed.

These things will change, America has survived worse and will survive this. But lets not pretend their issues are the most important to address....

What would you say is?