American Politics

[ninjabot]

Doing that is inherently corrupt

We can't keep pulling this "they go low, we go high" bullshit, because we stand the possibility of losing too much. You think the LGBTQ+ care about holding a moral high ground when their rights are being taken away right now? How about the Mexican families being ripped apart? The people that have lost family members because their fellow citizens think that the covid virus is a hoax?

Every life the Joker takes with his lethal laughing gas, acid-spraying flower button, or 10,000 volt joy buzzer is on Batman's head afterwards. But hey, at least he kept his morals in check, right?

...right?

and biden should definitely stay away from that kind of trumpism. Also, besides my point. My point was about regular soldiers and police officers. And even then, generals and higher ranking members of these organizations will probably lean conservative as well.

Well, Trump wanted people that was loyal to him, not loyal to his policies. Biden isn't a narcissist with the same intentions. That's not to say he's a hero, it's just you've gotta believe as shitty as Dems are, they're preferable to what we've had recently.

As for the war stuff, I don't disagree with the demographics that are primarily Republican. I disagree with the idea that there's enough to give them as good of a chance to win as some people think.

 

[hokageji]

What would you say is?

Covid relief, making sure the economy is back on track, BLM issue would be. The first two would address their issues mostly without them being the center of it.

 

[kkck]

We can't keep pulling this "they go low, we go high" bullshit, because we stand the possibility of losing too much. You think the LGBTQ+ care about holding a moral high ground when their rights are being taken away right now? How about the Mexican families being ripped apart? The people that have lost family members because their fellow citizens think that the covid virus is a hoax?

Every life the Joker takes with his lethal laughing gas, acid-spraying flower button, or 10,000 volt joy buzzer is on Batman's head afterwards. But hey, at least he kept his morals in check, right?

...right?



Well, Trump wanted people that was loyal to him, not loyal to his policies. Biden isn't a narcissist with the same intentions. That's not to say he's a hero, it's just you've gotta believe as shitty as Dems are, they're preferable to what we've had recently.

As for the war stuff, I don't disagree with the demographics that are primarily Republican. I disagree with the idea that there's enough to give them as good of a chance to win as some people think.

Ok, a few points:

.... yes? Any community relies on it's countries institutionality. As in, having laws which apply to everyone equally and fairly. The problem the LGBT community has is specifically that they are not treated equally and fairly, either by society or by the law. You can't apply comic book vigilatante logic (doing blatant corruption for good in this case) to legislate. That just makes the government more corrupt than it already is. You are not helping anyone in your country by turning it into a banana republic where the only goal politicians have is to grab power and cash in. The US government can't function if all their parties do is try and hold power regardless of what it does to the country's institutions. The country will never get anything done if every time there is a new person in charge his only goal is to destroy what the previous president did. Obviously biden shouldn't have republicans in his cabinet but there are plenty of positions where he can put republicans simply because they would be competent at their jobs.

Batman doesn't work in a real life comparison. If you apply real life logic to batman he isn't hero, he is a lunatic fighting the joker even though he has literally no business doing so and is most likely getting in the way of actual law enforcement while putting his own life in danger. I love batman as much as the next guy but this isn't a comic book.


Ah, no, definitely, there isn't an amount of guns a bunch of dumb rednecks can have that would help them win against the military. My point is more along the lines of whether soldiers and law enforcement would actually engage in such a conflict. Since the demographics suggest they are essentially the same people from the bottom up.

 

[M3J]

lmao...
yikes... i cant help but giggle at that as i have been judged in the same manner....

By whom? If by Trump supporters, then you understand why I said what I did.

 

[shionoro]

Covid relief, making sure the economy is back on track, BLM issue would be. The first two would address their issues mostly without them being the center of it.

I agree that these are very big issues. Tho I have to say: As a non US citizen, the prospect of another Trump is pretty scary. America's influence in the world suffered so much, even tho I feel like many Americans do not see that.
A lot of Americans think that Trump was 'tough on China' even tho he really single handedly maneuvered the US into a state of weakness that makes the world less safe (and i dont mean by not waging wars. I mean by stuff like opting out of the Iran deal, killing an iranian general, destroying lots of relationships to foreign countries, generally letting the US act as a bully for smaller states).

Even if Biden does perfectly on foreign policy (and I expect him to do well), i don't think one term will be enough to repair the damage that was done. Some of it might be lasting long.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 15, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 15, 2021 ---

We can't keep pulling this "they go low, we go high" bullshit, because we stand the possibility of losing too much. You think the LGBTQ+ care about holding a moral high ground when their rights are being taken away right now? How about the Mexican families being ripped apart? The people that have lost family members because their fellow citizens think that the covid virus is a hoax?

This is less about the moral than the tactical highground.

Think of it this way: Had all GOP senators wanted to overturn the election, or all gop justices, then they might have succeeded with that. Or even all the Gop leaning military. But they did not.
However, if democrats right now take the stance of 'we will destroy your party by courtstacking' in a unstable time like that, a lot of GOP who did not support the coup might think differently and think about stuff like 'impeach biden' depending on how they do in the midterms.
And before you say 'they will do it anyway', i will stress again: They didnt. And them winning the midterms would be far more likely if democrats do court stacking and things like that.

 

[xi0]

However, if democrats right now take the stance of 'we will destroy your party by courtstacking' in a unstable time like that, a lot of GOP who did not support the coup might think differently and think about stuff like 'impeach biden' depending on how they do in the midterms.

That's not the stance though. There is no sound, legal argument for overturning the election the way in which they wanted. There is a legal argument and precedent for packing the court, as the constitution does not stipulate its size. These two things aren't equal.

I don't really see packing the court as a move to "destroy" any political party, but rather a return to balance that Trump discarded when appointing 3 conservatives despite only losing 1 with Scalia (Kennedey was a Republican, but much more moderate).

 

[shionoro]

That's not the stance though. There is no sound, legal argument for overturning the election the way in which they wanted. There is a legal argument and precedent for packing the court, as the constitution does not stipulate its size. These two things aren't equal.

I don't really see packing the court as a move to "destroy" any political party, but rather a return to balance that Trump discarded when appointing 3 conservatives despite only losing 1 with Scalia (Kennedey was a Republican, but much more moderate).

Oh, dont get me wrong, the democrats changing the supreme court system would be welcome for me.
I am talking purely by effect here. If democrats would make gerrymandering impossible, have only impartial judges everywhere and erase any voter suppression, i do not think that the GOP would control the senate or house again in the next decade.
And the GOP knows that. That is what i meant with 'if democrats move to destroy the gop', because even tho it would be constitutional and even fair (as republicans would do it in a heartbeat), it might not be a good idea to do that in a time of fragility like this.

I think the best way to proceed is to stop the situation from getting worse and just win elections to slowly change the states.

The US system very easily would allow powergrabs for a party that controls all three breanches of government and really wants to do it. We were lucky the gop lost the house 2018.

 

[xi0]

Oh, dont get me wrong, the democrats changing the supreme court system would be welcome for me.
I am talking purely by effect here. If democrats would make gerrymandering impossible, have only impartial judges everywhere and erase any voter suppression, i do not think that the GOP would control the senate or house again in the next decade.
And the GOP knows that. That is what i meant with 'if democrats move to destroy the gop', because even tho it would be constitutional and even fair (as republicans would do it in a heartbeat), it might not be a good idea to do that in a time of fragility like this.

I think the best way to proceed is to stop the situation from getting worse and just win elections to slowly change the states.

The US system very easily would allow powergrabs for a party that controls all three breanches of government and really wants to do it. We were lucky the gop lost the house 2018.

I'm still sort of at the point where the effect doesn't matter to me, and I don't think it should matter to Democrats as well. The Democrats are still traitorous, far-left commies in their eyes. Liberals complain about gerrymandering, but the DNC still participate in it as well, though not to the degree that the GOP does. You are not winning these people over unless you embrace their lies.

Well, still I'm not sure if balancing the court would have that perceived effect anyway, as I mentioned before, the court ruled that federal courts can't take cases on gerrymandering. Cases regarding legislation being challenged would still be decided on by a a balanced court rather than a liberal-controlled one. If Biden went this route I do not think that he would do it to flip the court in the other direction, that would only happen when replacing existing seats.

 

[ninjabot]

Ok, a few points:

.... yes? Any community relies on it's countries institutionality. As in, having laws which apply to everyone equally and fairly. The problem the LGBT community has is specifically that they are not treated equally and fairly, either by society or by the law. You can't apply comic book vigilatante logic (doing blatant corruption for good in this case) to legislate. That just makes the government more corrupt than it already is. You are not helping anyone in your country by turning it into a banana republic where the only goal politicians have is to grab power and cash in. The US government can't function if all their parties do is try and hold power regardless of what it does to the country's institutions. The country will never get anything done if every time there is a new person in charge his only goal is to destroy what the previous president did. Obviously biden shouldn't have republicans in his cabinet but there are plenty of positions where he can put republicans simply because they would be competent at their jobs.

I'm not saying Biden should do it the same way Trump did. I'm saying that he should clear out any Trump loyalists and anyone not willing to compromise. Same effect but not the same reason. There is justification.

Batman doesn't work in a real life comparison. If you apply real life logic to batman he isn't hero, he is a lunatic fighting the joker even though he has literally no business doing so and is most likely getting in the way of actual law enforcement while putting his own life in danger. I love batman as much as the next guy but this isn't a comic book.

Lol my point is that failing to stop someone from doing several immoral things, even if you have to resort to an immoral act to prevent it makes you complicit at least in some part to all the bad things they do.

 

[hokageji]

By whom? If by Trump supporters, then you understand why I said what I did.

By some people who assumed i am arab and asked me if i was sad that Osama was dead, when i was dressed for an interview, clean shaved with a well dry cleaned suit and tie. Not exactly Trump supporter then but they would qualify now..

I understand what you said, and of course it needs to be nuanced more but overall agree with.

I agree that these are very big issues. Tho I have to say: As a non US citizen, the prospect of another Trump is pretty scary. America's influence in the world suffered so much, even tho I feel like many Americans do not see that.
A lot of Americans think that Trump was 'tough on China' even tho he really single handedly maneuvered the US into a state of weakness that makes the world less safe (and i dont mean by not waging wars. I mean by stuff like opting out of the Iran deal, killing an iranian general, destroying lots of relationships to foreign countries, generally letting the US act as a bully for smaller states).

Even if Biden does perfectly on foreign policy (and I expect him to do well), i don't think one term will be enough to repair the damage that was done. Some of it might be lasting long.

I think the world tends to equate other world leaders with Trump inaccurately. America's influence did suffer, and kinda allowed China to get a better stronghold on things.
The only thing Trump and his allies can be credited when they say "tough on china" is only words. In terms of policy, very little he did stopped them or affected them. Sure, Huwawei was affected and being in the industry i can say that Qualcomm benefited a little, but that was in the chip side while the networking side which is a much larger chunk remained uninfluenced mostly.
China leads in 5G, leads in artificial intelligence and is gaining military strength with the combination of these technologies. if AI is the next industrial revolution, China will be UK, the great colonizers where they control the trade and businesses. America is 2nd but the difference is huge. This puts weaker tech countries extremely behind.
And lets not forget, China is the leader of lithium minerals and solar panel production, two things that will shape the future.

 

[shionoro]

I'm still sort of at the point where the effect doesn't matter to me, and I don't think it should matter to Democrats as well. The Democrats are still traitorous, far-left commies in their eyes. Liberals complain about gerrymandering, but the DNC still participate in it as well, though not to the degree that the GOP does. You are not winning these people over unless you embrace their lies.

Well, still I'm not sure if balancing the court would have that perceived effect anyway, as I mentioned before, the court ruled that federal courts can't take cases on gerrymandering. Cases regarding legislation being challenged would still be decided on by a a balanced court rather than a liberal-controlled one. If Biden went this route I do not think that he would do it to flip the court in the other direction, that would only happen when replacing existing seats.

I am not just talking about gerrymandering. I am talking about voter suppression. For example, 2020, the supreme court ruled that absentee ballots in southcarolina must be signed by a witness. That was not the only such case.
If democrats control the supreme court, such voter suppression acts would not easily go through. That will be especially relevant in states like georgia that are on the verge of turning blue but where republicans still control the gubernational bodies.

Above, i was not talking about republican voters, but republican politicans. Having them be docile, at least a chunk of them, is kinda necessary to properly rule. And THEY do know the difference between a far left commie and a moderate democrat. Even if they say otherwise. Having a chunk of the republican party double guess itself whether it really wants to go down with trump or work with democrats is much better than having all of them clearly take the crazy side.

 

[kkck]

I'm not saying Biden should do it the same way Trump did. I'm saying that he should clear out any Trump loyalists and anyone not willing to compromise. Same effect but not the same reason. There is justification.



Lol my point is that failing to stop someone from doing several immoral things, even if you have to resort to an immoral act to prevent it makes you complicit at least in some part to all the bad things they do.

Ah, no, definitely. The issue here is being a loyalist. Obviously biden should not put any loyalist of his but in the same light any loyalist placed by trump has to go (specially those last minute hires from before the election). This isn't an issue who to whom they are loyal to.

 

[xi0]

I am not just talking about gerrymandering. I am talking about voter suppression. For example, 2020, the supreme court ruled that absentee ballots in southcarolina must be signed by a witness. That was not the only such case.
If democrats control the supreme court, such voter suppression acts would not easily go through. That will be especially relevant in states like georgia that are on the verge of turning blue but where republicans still control the gubernational bodies.

Above, i was not talking about republican voters, but republican politicans. Having them be docile, at least a chunk of them, is kinda necessary to properly rule. And THEY do know the difference between a far left commie and a moderate democrat. Even if they say otherwise. Having a chunk of the republican party double guess itself whether it really wants to go down with trump or work with democrats is much better than having all of them clearly take the crazy side.

Yeah it was just one example. Well it would be more likely maybe, but even with no clear swing voter, neither party would "control" the court in a balanced setup. And I think such a thing is much more ideal than having 6 conservatives to 3 liberals, which is what it's essentially become under Trump.

Again, I don't care for keeping them docile. Appeasement does not work when even the most fundamental truths are ignored or lied about to the point of exploitation. There are things that can be done that could be wildly popular to most people and conservatives would still hold it against Biden. There is no winning there. If there's some sort of reckoning coming from within the GOP, there is nothing Biden can do to influence that.

 

[M3J]

National Rifle Association declares bankruptcy in the US, plans to become a non-profit

The US National Rifle Association announces it has filed for bankruptcy, seeking protection from creditors by restructuring as a Texas non-profit.

www.abc.net.au

smh

 

[shionoro]

Again, I don't care for keeping them docile. Appeasement does not work when even the most fundamental truths are ignored or lied about to the point of exploitation. There are things that can be done that could be wildly popular to most people and conservatives would still hold it against Biden. There is no winning there. If there's some sort of reckoning coming from within the GOP, there is nothing Biden can do to influence that.

You gotta differentiate between a few things here. The GOP lawmakers and not the same kind of people as deranged Trump voters.
You can reason perfectly well with most conservative politicians behind closed doors without cameras. You can definitely create a situation where most of the GOP lawmakers are fine with you and support what you do by nonaction (letting it happen). Even if they go in front of a camera and tell everyone what a radical leftist you are, that is a far more beneficial situation than having them actually want to obstruct you with all they got.

That is not appeasement, that is a tactical situation. You have some things they want, they have some things you want and you can create a situation where business runs smoothly or you can create a situation where you are in active struggle.

A Biden administration which can win some important votes by having people like murkowski, sasse or romney voting with them if Manchin wont and who is a less easy target for claims of radicalism from the rightextremists will get farther in pushing leftist policies than a Biden government who takes virtue signalling stances that are popular in california but loses grip in the midterms.

 

[kkck]

You gotta differentiate between a few things here. The GOP lawmakers and not the same kind of people as deranged Trump voters.
You can reason perfectly well with most conservative politicians behind closed doors without cameras. You can definitely create a situation where most of the GOP lawmakers are fine with you and support what you do by nonaction (letting it happen). Even if they go in front of a camera and tell everyone what a radical leftist you are, that is a far more beneficial situation than having them actually want to obstruct you with all they got.

That is not appeasement, that is a tactical situation. You have some things they want, they have some things you want and you can create a situation where business runs smoothly or you can create a situation where you are in active struggle.

A Biden administration which can win some important votes by having people like murkowski, sasse or romney voting with them if Manchin wont and who is a less easy target for claims of radicalism from the rightextremists will get farther in pushing leftist policies than a Biden government who takes virtue signalling stances that are popular in california but loses grip in the midterms.

So... the standard republican tactic where they get all they want from democracts, give nothing back, and then stab them in the back and still tell their supporters democrats are communist anyways? Yeah sure, that has worked wonders for republicans and has nothing to do with the current state of US politics...

 

[M3J]

You gotta differentiate between a few things here. The GOP lawmakers and not the same kind of people as deranged Trump voters.
You can reason perfectly well with most conservative politicians behind closed doors without cameras. You can definitely create a situation where most of the GOP lawmakers are fine with you and support what you do by nonaction (letting it happen). Even if they go in front of a camera and tell everyone what a radical leftist you are, that is a far more beneficial situation than having them actually want to obstruct you with all they got.

That is not appeasement, that is a tactical situation. You have some things they want, they have some things you want and you can create a situation where business runs smoothly or you can create a situation where you are in active struggle.

A Biden administration which can win some important votes by having people like murkowski, sasse or romney voting with them if Manchin wont and who is a less easy target for claims of radicalism from the rightextremists will get farther in pushing leftist policies than a Biden government who takes virtue signalling stances that are popular in california but loses grip in the midterms.

you seem not to understand GOP or Trump supporters at all.

GOP lawmakers will pretend to be fine with you, but that won't stop them from voting against you. I dunno why you think they won't obstruct Dems, but they will. We have at least two GOP who were accused or caught giving rioters tours of the Capitol a day before the riot, with one actively tweeting where Pelosi was. Majority of GOP will choose active struggle over letting the Dems get what they want.

People like Romney will vote against Dems, not with them. He stood up to Trump, sure, but Trump was that dangerous.

 

[shionoro]

So... the standard republican tactic where they get all they want from democracts, give nothing back, and then stab them in the back and still tell their supporters democrats are communist anyways? Yeah sure, that has worked wonders for republicans and has nothing to do with the current state of US politics...

I don't think that is really accurate tho. That is a narrative that is spun and surely, as time went on, mc connell has done such things, but democrats not being able to play tough when they want to in negotiations with the GOP and the GOP ending up accepting what happened is just not true.

The four years of trump were relatively extreme, admittedly, but acting like you cannot talk to GOP politicians in backroom deals to get what you want because they are all lunatics is not what we can see.

As I have said before: Had Mc Connell and Pence wanted to and had these GOP legislators and judges all been completely on trumps side, then they could probably have hurled america into an even bigger crisis without a clear outcome.
There is a big difference between a situation in which the GOP has many people who secretly think the democrats are right and give up their fundamental opposition against everything (which is not the same as not opposing policies they dont like, but there is not voting for it and there is trying every legal trick in the book to block it and make democrats pay. ) and a GOP that thinks that have to support trump at all costs so their party does not break apart.

One reason why republicans were extremely obstructionist in the obama era was obama himself. He never got along with them. Biden is a different person. I would not rule out him being able to bring the two mainparties closer together.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 17, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 17, 2021 ---

you seem not to understand GOP or Trump supporters at all.

GOP lawmakers will pretend to be fine with you, but that won't stop them from voting against you. I dunno why you think they won't obstruct Dems, but they will. We have at least two GOP who were accused or caught giving rioters tours of the Capitol a day before the riot, with one actively tweeting where Pelosi was. Majority of GOP will choose active struggle over letting the Dems get what they want.

People like Romney will vote against Dems, not with them. He stood up to Trump, sure, but Trump was that dangerous.

I mean, you can clearly see that Romney did not always vote with trump. Yes, the republican party also likes to play the game of 'we have some opposing voices but enough votes to still pass it'. but that is different in a 50/50 senate. More republicans would be compelled in such a senate to vote against party line (counterintuitively) because that game from before cannot be played anymore and thus there is less planning involved.

 

[kkck]

I don't think that is really accurate tho. That is a narrative that is spun and surely, as time went on, mc connell has done such things, but democrats not being able to play tough when they want to in negotiations with the GOP and the GOP ending up accepting what happened is just not true.

The four years of trump were relatively extreme, admittedly, but acting like you cannot talk to GOP politicians in backroom deals to get what you want because they are all lunatics is not what we can see.

As I have said before: Had Mc Connell and Pence wanted to and had these GOP legislators and judges all been completely on trumps side, then they could probably have hurled america into an even bigger crisis without a clear outcome.
There is a big difference between a situation in which the GOP has many people who secretly think the democrats are right and give up their fundamental opposition against everything (which is not the same as not opposing policies they dont like, but there is not voting for it and there is trying every legal trick in the book to block it and make democrats pay. ) and a GOP that thinks that have to support trump at all costs so their party does not break apart.

One reason why republicans were extremely obstructionist in the obama era was obama himself. He never got along with them. Biden is a different person. I would not rule out him being able to bring the two mainparties closer together.

Ah come on, even you know that's absurd and borderline stupid. The issue was not obama himself. This isn't an issue of obama not being friends with republicans. The republican party did radicalize under obama but that was never because of stuff obama did, this started the moment obama won. And the accusations of obama being a communist and whatnot started even earlier. And those weren't even fringe parts of the party, it was just mainstream republicans doing what their constituents wanted. Why do you think it was such a stir when Mccain said obama was indeed an american who loved america? Because the party has gone mental and through McCain you had a tiny shred of sanity coming from the party's fringes...

And that said, democrats never play tough... They always rule out every tough alternative they had to actually counter stuff that trump did. The perception that democrats fold at every chance is pretty clearly rooted in reality.

Republicans were obstructionist during the obama era simply because this is what they constituents wanted and it's extremely likely this will remain unchanged in the Biden era. A majority of the republican party still believes biden lost the election... do you suppose that will make republicans less extreme? Even now you had over 100 congressmen and plenty of senators going along with this election fraud nonsense.

 

[shionoro]

Ah come on, even you know that's absurd and borderline stupid. The issue was not obama himself. This isn't an issue of obama not being friends with republicans. The republican party did radicalize under obama but that was never because of stuff obama did, this started the moment obama won. And the accusations of obama being a communist and whatnot started even earlier. And those weren't even fringe parts of the party, it was just mainstream republicans doing what their constituents wanted. Why do you think it was such a stir when Mccain said obama was indeed an american who loved america? Because the party has gone mental and through McCain you had a tiny shred of sanity coming from the party's fringes...

And that said, democrats never play tough... They always rule out every tough alternative they had to actually counter stuff that trump did. The perception that democrats fold at every chance is pretty clearly rooted in reality.

Republicans were obstructionist during the obama era simply because this is what they constituents wanted and it's extremely likely this will remain unchanged in the Biden era. A majority of the republican party still believes biden lost the election... do you suppose that will make republicans less extreme? Even now you had over 100 congressmen and plenty of senators going along with this election fraud nonsense.

It IS an issue of Obama that he was unable to strike deals with the republicans. Deals are not about niceties, deals are about finding some consensus that is mutually beneficial.
Obama was often not able to do that with republican lawmakers, governors or other relevant figures. And Biden is a different person than that. For example, without any niceties, if you understand how someone ticks you can convince a republican lawmaker who is on edge that a decision will be beneficial for his reelection. If your pitch is clearly better than mc connel's and the guy actually is not a fan of the policy, that can work. Not because he likes you, but because you found something to hook him with. Obama was never a person who could deal with stuff like that (with the human side of it).

Seeing the republicans and their voters as a block of people who works outside of the human psychology is ill advised. Yes, a lot of republicans are downright fascists, more of their voters are. We don't need to repeat that over and over, you know that, i know that. Still, you need to deal with them. Nothing changes that. And right now, the republican party is on the fence.

If they purge themselves off Trump, a third of their voters and possibly lawmakers will be gone. That will break the party in half.
If they don't purge Trump, the same might happen with moderates who will not vote them anymore or break away from them (and it is insane).

So their decision right now is that singled out voices say Trump is not a good guy but the reaction is overblown so they both cater to trump fans and assure moderate that they are not completely crazy. The democrats can influence that reaction. The democrats can force them to stop this 'i endorse trump and also dont endorse him' kind of position if they play their cards right.
But just seeing the republican party as enemy and not as a potential partner that can be convinced to do something more beneficial to the democrats than they are doing now would not be productive. It might make it impossible to get the country back on track.