Discussion Yamato’s Gender

[Fox666]

Wouldn't it depend on which name you use for Kaido's child? If you call her "Yamato", you would use "she". If you recognize him as Oden, then it's "he".

 

[catagon87]

Wouldn't it depend on which name you use for Kaido's child? If you call her "Yamato", you would use "she". If you recognize him as Oden, then it's "he".

Full disclosure: I don't care what people call Yamato. They, her, he, Oden, Kaido's offspring, Kaido's son, Kaido's daughter.. All I care about is that the person posting has made it clear enough in their language that I know who they're referring to. "Yamato came across Shinobu when she was carrying Momo" for instance could be kind of confusing. People who jump down someone's throat for misgendering Yamato have too much time on their hands. Real people have real feelings, but Oda's creations don't. At best you may offend some Yamato cos-player.

For me personally, say I had a biologically-male friend IRL who really just wanted to be Brittney Spears. They just really want to be that songstress. Maybe the first time they saw "Hit Me Baby One More Time" live, it was similar to Yamato's experience of witnessing Oden in the Legendary Hour. Even though I think the whole idea of identifying as another person is crazy and illogical, I have a lot of illogical shit I do as a person and most of my friends and family respect that (like reading One Piece weekly at age 34, and meeting a group of strangers weekly to play Dungeons and Dragons). In this case I don't think I'd recognize the friend as "Brittney Spears", but if it was that important to them that they based their identity around it, I'm not going to fight them on the nuances. "Sure, you can be referred to as she, and Brittney!" *goes on about my day avoiding a conflict that benefits me in no way*

 

[Zehahaha]

Joining late, but I find the debate about Yamato a bit daft.

Not overly familiar with transgender debates in Japan, but had Oda really intended Yamato to be transgender or gender fluid or whatever, then I would presume Oda would've made it obvious.

From the moment she was introduced, she was described as an Oden fanatic. She doesn't consider herself a man, but considers herself as Oden. If Oden was a woman, she would call herself a woman by extension.

 

[Diivil]

Joining late, but I find the debate about Yamato a bit daft.

Not overly familiar with transgender debates in Japan, but had Oda really intended Yamato to be transgender or gender fluid or whatever, then I would presume Oda would've made it obvious.

From the moment she was introduced, she was described as an Oden fanatic. She doesn't consider herself a man, but considers herself as Oden. If Oden was a woman, she would call herself a woman by extension.

Simple and sound logic doesn't work around here, or anywhere else on the internet for that matter.

The most complicated and convoluted logic is all that matters.
Extra kudos are gained if you also choose to ignore all context.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Full disclosure: I don't care what people call Yamato. They, her, he, Oden, Kaido's offspring, Kaido's son, Kaido's daughter.. All I care about is that the person posting has made it clear enough in their language that I know who they're referring to. "Yamato came across Shinobu when she was carrying Momo" for instance could be kind of confusing. People who jump down someone's throat for misgendering Yamato have too much time on their hands. Real people have real feelings, but Oda's creations don't. At best you may offend some Yamato cos-player.

For me personally, say I had a biologically-male friend IRL who really just wanted to be Brittney Spears. They just really want to be that songstress. Maybe the first time they saw "Hit Me Baby One More Time" live, it was similar to Yamato's experience of witnessing Oden in the Legendary Hour. Even though I think the whole idea of identifying as another person is crazy and illogical, I have a lot of illogical shit I do as a person and most of my friends and family respect that (like reading One Piece weekly at age 34, and meeting a group of strangers weekly to play Dungeons and Dragons). In this case I don't think I'd recognize the friend as "Brittney Spears", but if it was that important to them that they based their identity around it, I'm not going to fight them on the nuances. "Sure, you can be referred to as she, and Brittney!" *goes on about my day avoiding a conflict that benefits me in no way*

Joining late, but I find the debate about Yamato a bit daft.

Not overly familiar with transgender debates in Japan, but had Oda really intended Yamato to be transgender or gender fluid or whatever, then I would presume Oda would've made it obvious.

From the moment she was introduced, she was described as an Oden fanatic. She doesn't consider herself a man, but considers herself as Oden. If Oden was a woman, she would call herself a woman by extension.

this is kinda where I am, and I think it's unfair when people say it's invalidating trans people, yamato is too centered on oden, it'slike a young girl saying they identify specifically as like say superman or like Obama, you can see why there is confusion, especially when eventually yamato is gonna leave being"oden" behind , and when that happens what we think about their identiy will be resolved

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 1, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2021 ---

Yeah there’s update from the vivre card
Yamato is a woman

 

[afromarco005]

Vivre card just dropped and Yamato is a female there is no ambiguity. This debate is over now.

 

[Fox666]

Manga > Vivre Card

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Manga > Vivre Card

Vivre card is canon. It's supervised by Oda.

 

[M3J]

Manga > Vivre Card

Agreed, unless Vivre Card in question includes info in OP's past that isn't left to doubt, but Oda won't also reveal what'll happen in the future. He didn't say Sabo was alive until Dressrosa, right?

Though in this case, I don't think Oda has any reason to mislead us. It's not like Yamato's gender was revealed before their appearance, was it?

 

[catagon87]

Agreed, unless Vivre Card in question includes info in OP's past that isn't left to doubt, but Oda won't also reveal what'll happen in the future. He didn't say Sabo was alive until Dressrosa, right?

Though in this case, I don't think Oda has any reason to mislead us. It's not like Yamato's gender was revealed before their appearance, was it?

Such an odd thing to cherry pick as "manga > Vivre Card". The Vivre Card isn't some fan-fic. Lol. If anything Oda probably sees the stupidity around how much attention these discussions get online and people getting legit offended that Yamato is being misgendered and probably wanted to clarify for himself, that way we can all get back to the debates that matter; Zoro vs. Sanji.

But there's literally no other topic that I've seen someone say "Let's take the manga over the vivre card." Usually the Vivre Card is there to clarify things that would be odd to just bring up organically in the manga. Yamato doesn't seem like the type to care about being misgendered so I doubt she (or Oda) would waste a few panels explaining it.

 

[M3J]

Such an odd thing to cherry pick as "manga > Vivre Card". The Vivre Card isn't some fan-fic. Lol. If anything Oda probably sees the stupidity around how much attention these discussions get online and people getting legit offended that Yamato is being misgendered and probably wanted to clarify for himself, that way we can all get back to the debates that matter; Zoro vs. Sanji.

But there's literally no other topic that I've seen someone say "Let's take the manga over the vivre card." Usually the Vivre Card is there to clarify things that would be odd to just bring up organically in the manga. Yamato doesn't seem like the type to care about being misgendered so I doubt she (or Oda) would waste a few panels explaining it.

but Oda won't also reveal what'll happen in the future.

^^^

 

[kkck]

I want to stress that the stupidest thing about this yamato debate is that kiku and izo are a thing in this series. The fixation on yamato makes zero sense.

 

[catagon87]

I want to stress that the stupidest thing about this yamato debate is that kiku and izo are a thing in this series. The fixation on yamato makes zero sense.

The fixation is because of the ambiguity. Yamato is clearly a biological female but until the latest SBS wasn't really confirmed to be male or female. She was introduced as Kaido's daughter, while simultaneously being called Kaido's son, uses male pronouns, and Luffy used gender-neutral pronouns in reference to her.

Kiku saying "I am a woman" or "I'm a woman in spirit" (forget how she stated it) was a character acknowledging their own gender identity, which is more easy to get behind, objectively, unless you're an asshole (not saying you are, I'm just saying that if someone insists on calling Kiku a man they're being petty).

I agree that the fixation is stupid though, but I don't agree that it made zero sense. This kind of ambiguity drives fans crazy in any fictional work. There are novels with ambiguous terms where the author never clarified anything (at least Oda did, here) and fans hundreds of years later argue about it.

^^^

You're going to have to tell me what you mean because apparently my reading comprehension is shit. Lol.

Side note: Oda sucks at predicting the future even in the context of his own manga. How many years in a row did we get the "WANO IS COMING" spiel?

 

[M3J]

You're going to have to tell me what you mean because apparently my reading comprehension is shit. Lol.

Side note: Oda sucks at predicting the future even in the context of his own manga. How many years in a row did we get the "WANO IS COMING" spiel?

Didn't Sabo's Vivre Card before Dressrosa say or imply he was dead, for example?
Or hell, Luffy's likely going to become the Pirate King, but would Oda include that in his Vivre Card few months before that happens?

Or Oda's good at lying/hyping.

 

[catagon87]

Didn't Sabo's Vivre Card before Dressrosa say or imply he was dead, for example?
Or hell, Luffy's likely going to become the Pirate King, but would Oda include that in his Vivre Card few months before that happens?

Or Oda's good at lying/hyping.

Oh, I don't remember. I honestly didn't pay much attention to forums / vivre cards / extra back in the days before Sabo was shown as alive. Seems like a different situation though. Always the possibility Oda changed his mind, too. Maybe he thought with Ace dying that the brother dynamic was actually something he could still use.

 

[M3J]

Oh, I don't remember. I honestly didn't pay much attention to forums / vivre cards / extra back in the days before Sabo was shown as alive. Seems like a different situation though. Always the possibility Oda changed his mind, too. Maybe he thought with Ace dying that the brother dynamic was actually something he could still use.

Well, someone kept arguing Sabo was dead, before his reveal, and some of us were saying there's no actual proof that he was, and that the context implied Dragon saved Sabo.

Could be, but it was still completely ambiguous, so there wasn't a way he could contradict or retcon what the manga said. But the point is, Vivre Cards can't always be trusted.

 

[Nie Li]

Well, someone kept arguing Sabo was dead, before his reveal, and some of us were saying there's no actual proof that he was, and that the context implied Dragon saved Sabo.

Could be, but it was still completely ambiguous, so there wasn't a way he could contradict or retcon what the manga said. But the point is, Vivre Cards can't always be trusted.

That's true, but it's only true when referring to stuff the vivre cards would keep in the dark to surprise us in the future.

There's no surprise here.

 

[Demonspeed]

Vivre card is canon. It's supervised by Oda.

I don't care about the countless gender opinions debates on social media but what makes Vivre Card canon? These days people like to use words like this to get more people to buy their product.

 

[catagon87]

I don't care about the countless gender opinions debates on social media but what makes Vivre Card canon? These days people like to use words like this to get more people to buy their product.

I don't think there's a reason to consider them non-canon. They come from Oda, and they're just sprinkles of information. It's similar to Dumbledore being homosexual. Does it matter or is it pertinent to Harry Potter's story-line? Absolutely not. Is it "canon" in that it's in the story in some way? Nope. However, when the creator determines it to be so, then it is. This can work to either the benefit or detriment (George Lucas being the latter) of the work in question. For One Piece it's more of fun facts and things that allow us to relate to the characters more. Does it matter that Yamato loves Salmon? Nope. However, as a reader maybe I love Yamato and I also love Salmon so I now have a cool new way to connect with my favorite character. A homosexual person seeing Dumbledore, the ultimate HP universe badass, also being homosexual, giving them an avenue to relate to their favorite character(s).

Yamato being declared female by Oda isn't pertinent to the story line, but arguing that it's not true because "Vivre Card isn't cannon" at this point is just stupid. The creator himself has deemed a side to the argument, and by its very definition that is the winning side. This thread honestly should just be locked and closed as there's nothing further to argue about. If people want to argue about how cannon Vivre Card releases are, there's a Vivre Card thread.

 

[weixiaobao]

Yamato is Oden gender, not in term of male and female. But that in itself is an irony. I post this somewhere before on this but Oden is the sort that don't care what people think of him. All the shenanigan that he was in, all the credits that he didn't take, all the blames that he didn't refute. He is the sort that know who he is, and that is all it is matter. He doesn't try to be anyone else. Yamato's heart is in the right place, but this spoke volume on Yamato's immaturity. The most Oden thing that Yamato can do is be the best Yamato possible and doesn't give a ssss about what other people think. The fact that Yamato showed up and tell momosuke that she is his father. How rude and disrespectful is that if it happen in real life? It is the sort of shallow cosplay and imitation of appearance and things that don't matter, compare to the essence.

Oden inspired many people including Yamato. But what made Oden an Oden is his actions. It is his legendary hour that make Yamato wanted to be Oden. Not his dick, not his biological sex, nor his gender identities, nor his gender expression. All those are dressings to the essence.

I like Yamato. The quirk is funny. And the flaw in her immature thinking cosplaying her hero is funny. People are allow to be weird and idiot.

Maybe if Yamato is real and I respect Yamato enough, I prefer to her whatever she required of me. But the respect isn't quite there. I want people to prefer to be as Wu Zetian. But people don't play along irl.

Yamato at best is a tom boy, and DOES NOT have gender dysphoria. I think it is fine if trans reader identify with the Oden-lite. I ain't gonna take it from any of them. If that what make them feel good, they should treasure it, and should give zero f about what other people think. Those folks are real. Yamato is not real. But some of these convo sometimes took really weird turn as if Yamato the fantasy character can be offended or something about some rando online so call mispronouncing the gender. Some of these folks really touch grass once a while to distinct what is the real world and what is fiction.