One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[hokageji]

i see your point of view but i must say lets agree to disagree... For me, if future sight was so incredibly powered, atleast one of the Yonkos would have it shown by now and we havent seen it.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

dont see why he should get the benefit of the doubt. Kaido's fast, insanely fast ... if snake man could hit him, no reason why Kaido's speed wouldnt.

So is Luffy, and even if Katakuri can see the attack coming, he should be fast enough to be able to dodge it.. His logiesque ability wouldn't allow him complete protection... Sure Katakuri can benefit with it against others but its still not gonna allow him an edge over Kaido.

Luffy barely dodged Kaido (but still dodged) in base where he's his slowest. Katakuri is extremely fast and matches Luffy's fastest speed form - Snake man while being a master at future sight.
Kaido isn't hitting Katakuri in the same situation.

People seem to forget how crazy hard Katakuri and Cracker's Haki were. Luffy still felt pain in G4 when directly clashing with Katakuri which never happened before.

King and Queen looked like idiots when dealing with Marco for the first time cos they don't know how his fruit/ability works. Imagine how much foolish they'll look if it was Katakuri they were up against?

 

[Nie Li]

Luffy barely dodged Kaido (but still dodged) in base where he's his slowest. Katakuri is extremely fast and matches Luffy's fastest speed form - Snake man while being a master at future sight.
Kaido isn't hitting Katakuri in the same situation.

People seem to forget how crazy hard Katakuri and Cracker's Haki were. Luffy still felt pain in G4 when directly clashing with Katakuri which never happened before.

King and Queen looked like idiots when dealing with Marco for the first time cos they don't know how his fruit/ability works. Imagine how much foolish they'll look if it was Katakuri they were up against?

Considering Marco's "durability" has nothing to do with haki, there's nothing to imagine. There's absolutely no relation between that match and a hypothetical match against Katakuri. Marco's fight tells us nothing about Queen's and King's haki. For all we know, Katakuri's CoA may be a joke when compared to King's, we will discover if that's the case or not when we learn anything about King's CoA.

People are really jumping the gun to judge King when the guy hasn't used a single skill other than that divebomb and normal swordstrikes "in base" yet. And Marco didn't really do anything to him either other than push him around through walls and confuse him. Marco did a great job keeping the two of them occupied, but he could have kept Katakuri and Cracker occupied together just the same way with his DF.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Considering Marco's "durability" has nothing to do with haki, there's nothing to imagine. There's absolutely no relation between that match and a hypothetical match against Katakuri. Marco's fight tells us nothing about Queen's and King's haki. For all we know, Katakuri's CoA may be a joke when compared to King's, we will discover if that's the case or not when we learn anything about King's CoA.

If only you'd understood my point you'd realise I was basically talking about how tricky Marco seemed to be in the initial clash with King and Queen - nothing about durability or Haki - which got them looking stupid cos he's not even fully intangible.

Now imagine having to deal with Katakuri who's even trickier with his DF. That's assuming they've never fought/clashed b4 as is the case with King and Marco.

 

[Pirate Queen]

i see your point of view but i must say lets agree to disagree... For me, if future sight was so incredibly powered, atleast one of the Yonkos would have it shown by now and we havent seen it.

Like CoC coating, FS is something only the top users of CoO could use. As per Rayleigh flashback

 

[Nie Li]

If only you'd understood my point you'd realise I was basically talking about how tricky Marco seemed to be in the initial clash with King and Queen - nothing about durability or Haki - which got them looking stupid cos he's not even fully intangible.

Now imagine having to deal with Katakuri who's even trickier with his DF. That's assuming they've never fought/clashed b4 as is the case with King and Marco.

I understood your point and I addressed why it's a bad point: Katakuri would also "look like an idiot" if he was mached against Marco, because Marco's defense is a lot trickier than Katakuri's, so King or anyone else "looking like an idiot" against Marco is not an indicator of anything. Katakuri just dodges while Marco literally just instantly heals or regenerates any damage you deal to him no matter how strong, fast or technical the attacks are: that's what confused King and Queen.

I also disagree on the statement that King and Queen "looked like idiots". That's a bad take on the encounter. The only way to defeat Marco fast is to use kairouseki weapons or to own a broken DF like Sugar's or the likes. Otherwise, the only way to defeat him is to have a long, long fight with him until his DF power runs out and his regeneration slows down. King and Queen, as far as we know, are pure melee fighters with no broken skills like that, so a drawn out battle against him is the only way: There's literally nothing they could have done to injure Marco in the fight they had, and Katakuri wouldn't have injured Marco either, nor would Luffy (I mean injure as in "actual injuries that Marco wouldn't instantly regenerate", those don't count, as he's taking them constantly).

Marco acknowledged that he couldn't defeat King and Queen together, that alone proves he would have lost to them. The fight would have been different if it was just Marco vs King, but different by how much? Marco bombarded them with attacks using both his zoan body and his zoan mystical flame attacks and we're seeing how he really did nothing to either Queen or King other than making Queen bleed slightly, which is literally nothing at all for an ancient zoan: in a 2vs1, Marco would have lost in a drawn out battle against them, before they would have outlasted his regeneration, which they were pushing constantly and would have continued to do so.

With that in mind, Katakuri would have had more trouble than they did against Marco: he's even less suited for drawn out battles than Marco as there are more ways to potentially injure him sooner. Of course Katakuri could also possibly defeat Marco, but that's the point of these YC1: they all could possibly defeat one another depending on how the battle goes. Katakuri is sure to dodge Marco's attacks for a while, but that would be his way of trying to outlast him: King was doing a good job at that in his own ancient zoan way as he didn't appear to be accumulating any significant damage at all either.

Katakuri vs King would be another drawn out battle. Katakuri has seemingly (we have seen no comparison) more fire power than Marco, but that doesn't mean he will unavoidably defeat King before King manages to get an eventual hit in: his defense is more flawed than Marco and there are ways to take advantage of it like breaking his concentration.

We have yet to see King's actual fighting techniques or even his hybrid form. You did talk about Katakuri's haki and how good at CoA he was, so that's why I told you: we have not seen King'd CoA yet, and judging by the Tobi Roppo's like Ulti sending current Luffy flying after clashing headbutts in G2, King's CoA will surely be nothing to laugh at. Katakuri can dodge with FS, but FS doesn't guarantee King can't block his hits.



Notice that I'm not saying Katakuri is sure to lose against King, Marco or anyone else, but I'm refuting the statement that Karakuri is clearly above any other YC1, especially since the whole diminishing King and Queen because of their encounter with Marco is a flawed argument. Just like Katakuri's CoO is off the charts and Marco's DF-related regeneration is off the charts, I expect both King and Beckman to be off the charts at something (though I do expect Beckman to be an off the charts all rounder. A small crew like Shanks' needs stronger crewmates to stay alive).

 

[hokageji]

Luffy barely dodged Kaido (but still dodged) in base where he's his slowest. Katakuri is extremely fast and matches Luffy's fastest speed form - Snake man while being a master at future sight.
Kaido isn't hitting Katakuri in the same situation.

People seem to forget how crazy hard Katakuri and Cracker's Haki were. Luffy still felt pain in G4 when directly clashing with Katakuri which never happened before.

King and Queen looked like idiots when dealing with Marco for the first time cos they don't know how his fruit/ability works. Imagine how much foolish they'll look if it was Katakuri they were up against?

But he was using future sight wasn't he? Katakuri can step up to Luffy's speed, i get that, but it doesn't explain how Katakuri wouldn't be hit.. I understand and acknowledge both katakuri and Cracker being amazing haki users, but the original argument has been that Katakuri can beat Kaido with future sight, with everything we've seen Kaido do, i dont think that is the case..

If Katakuri fought Kaido on top of Onigashima island, how would he fair against Kaido? I am not convinced that lightening attack can be dodged no matter how good the future sight is.. If his ability gives him defense over all elemental, that'll be because of mochi more than the FS itself.

Like CoC coating, FS is something only the top users of CoO could use. As per Rayleigh flashback

Agreed, but that doesn't answer why we dont see the top Yonko not using or shown using FS.... We can make the argument that they all do, or atleast one of them does but its an easier bet that CoC coating is still a lot stronger (anad perhaps even less commonplace)... I know BB was the first person to be shown with CoO, but we dont know if he has FS...

 

[Pirate Queen]

But he was using future sight wasn't he? Katakuri can step up to Luffy's speed, i get that, but it doesn't explain how Katakuri wouldn't be hit.. I understand and acknowledge both katakuri and Cracker being amazing haki users, but the original argument has been that Katakuri can beat Kaido with future sight, with everything we've seen Kaido do, i dont think that is the case..

If Katakuri fought Kaido on top of Onigashima island, how would he fair against Kaido? I am not convinced that lightening attack can be dodged no matter how good the future sight is.. If his ability gives him defense over all elemental, that'll be because of mochi more than the FS itself.


Agreed, but that doesn't answer why we dont see the top Yonko not using or shown using FS.... We can make the argument that they all do, or atleast one of them does but its an easier bet that CoC coating is still a lot stronger (anad perhaps even less commonplace)... I know BB was the first person to be shown with CoO, but we dont know if he has FS...

Well it's possible that Big Mom and Kaido don't need advanced versions of CoO because unless you have advanced fighting techniques they don't need to dodge all that much lol

 

[hokageji]

Well it's possible that Big Mom and Kaido don't need advanced versions of CoO because unless you have advanced fighting techniques they don't need to dodge all that much lol

right, so why are we putting Katakuri in the position that FS will allow him to win against Kaido?

 

[Pirate Queen]

right, so why are we putting Katakuri in the position that FS will allow him to win against Kaido?

I do not think Katakuri could beat Kaido. I'm not sure where that came from

 

[hokageji]

I do not think Katakuri could beat Kaido. I'm not sure where that came from

then i guess i have been bumbling around wasting everyone's time... lol....

anyways, my point is FS isn't an answer to everything.. If you have Kaido's speed and invulnerability, it probably buys you a bit more time but it wont affect the outcome.. If Katakuri displays CoC coating, then its a different story.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

right, so why are we putting Katakuri in the position that FS will allow him to win against Kaido?

Woah! No one said that. The point is Kaido wouldn't be able to get a hit on Katakuri as he barely grazed Luffy who's a slightly inferior future sight user in comparison.
Although Luffy saw Kaido hitting him seconds ahead (talking about the rooftop scene), his body at base form was only able to react that fast cos he's at his slowest (of course he's still fast even at that).
Katakuri in comparison is super fast and aside from seeing the future probably slightly ahead than Luffy did in that scenario, his reaction speed is insane hence why he wouldn't get grazed/hit/touched.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2021, Original Post Date: Jul 28, 2021 ---

Agreed, but that doesn't answer why we dont see the top Yonko not using or shown using FS

I'm theorising Shanks having it. He's got to be a monster at all 3 Haki not just CoC and CoA.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2021 ---

Katakuri can step up to Luffy's speed, i get that, but it doesn't explain how Katakuri wouldn't be hit..

That's exactly what explains it. They still have to move to dodge after using future sight. How fast they can move to dodge depends on their physical speed and reaction time. It's no use seeing something coming if you're not fast enough to dodge it/react to it.

 

[HereNThere]

If Katakuri displays CoC coating, then its a different story.

Argument could be made. The parallels are there.

Spoiler: Chapter 883

Spoiler: Chapter 1009

Highly doubtful that Katakuri would win, but he certainly wouldn't be a slouch.

 

[albertwv]

How strong are the Flying 6 now that we've seen 5/6 fight. Hopefully Whos Who and Sasaki arent out of commission yet.
I place Who at the top of the F6 then Drake then Sasaki then BM then Ulti and finally P1
The 2 fights weve seen have been great but I expect more out of Ancient Zoans

Where do you think CP0 lands in PL in Onigashima? They seem confident to be able to kill Who. Which makes me wonder... would Kaido allow CP0 to kill one of his F6 in his own home or would he fight CP0. Now I know he is no WB who would kill for family/crew, but would Kaido just let anyone come into his base and kill his top henchmen, I would understand Gifters/headliners but F6 and above? He seemed to care for Jack at the very least.
CP0 seem pretty confident to do that with no repercussions.

 

[Pirate Queen]

The biggest cap in One Piece

"The Flying 6 are the reason the Beast Pirates are so feared" - Sasaki

 

[john ellis]

the flying six are all likely snack tier combantants and are all probably equal to atleast whitebeard commanders tbh. They're nothing to sneeze at. The flying 6 vs the 3 calamities. Is probably a high dif for the calamities. Taking down 2 Flying 6 each is probably extremely differcult fight for the calamities. The flying 6 might even take it.

It's also likely because they're more abundant and less important then the calamities that they might get more tasks, and are seen by the public/over pirate crews more. So they're more feared because they are seen more.

 

[HereNThere]

I like the Flying 6, but they really didn't get a good opportunity to pop off and show their strength against non Strawhat opponents. Like, Ashura probably could've went against one of them instead of against Jack.

I'm also hoping there is a part two to the fights, so to speak, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

It's very clear Sasaki would've defeated Franky as it was becoming a battle of attrition. His hybrid form was his trump card and also his undoing. Franky's body isn't as durable as General Franky so he would definitely have lost if he wasn't smart enough to deduce the soft underbelly Sasaki had.

 

[albertwv]

Someone mentioned the length of these fights. We've been waiting for over a year for the match up fights to start and now they have started but it doesnt feel the same as it did with Alabasta, Enies Lobby, and TB. Those were the last time we had real hard suspense match ups. Dressrosa didnt have the full crew and FI match ups were not even match ups they were just showing off the power of the SHs. The average SH fight takes 2-3 chapters with 50% panels in each chapter of actual fighting,
Page One fight was nonexistent, Ulti was banged from all sides and didnt really feel like a match up. Whos Who may still be in the ring, Sasaki seems to be out of the count but I hope not, if not that would be extremely boring. BM is the only one left and I hope there is a good fight between her and Robin and Brook.

Then after the F6, will come the Calamity fights, those should take 3+ chapters of insane fighting at least Queen and King. I am kinda disappointed that Oda passed off Jack to only 1 mink and not to both or at least to a SH. Which I am aware there is not enough SHs to fight Jack but still a major opponent like that is not being dealt by a SH puts a sour taste in my mouth.

Another person mentioned Vergo and Pica being F6 level, I agree with Vergo being as strong as maybe Page 1 (the weakest of the F6) and Pica is only near invincible because of his DF but Ulti could handle him easily if he was out of his DF like when Zolo finished him off.

When Whos who and Sasaki wanted to challenge a Calamity and Who wanted to take down Queen but asked Drake for assistance (we have no idea if he was being serious about the help or just trying to lure him in), I initially thought, wow they might actually be strong enough. But after seeing them fight, I doubt they could defeat any Calamity.

 

[hokageji]

Woah! No one said that. The point is Kaido wouldn't be able to get a hit on Katakuri as he barely grazed Luffy who's a slightly inferior future sight user in comparison.
Although Luffy saw Kaido hitting him seconds ahead (talking about the rooftop scene), his body at base form was only able to react that fast cos he's at his slowest (of course he's still fast even at that).
Katakuri in comparison is super fast and aside from seeing the future probably slightly ahead than Luffy did in that scenario, his reaction speed is insane hence why he wouldn't get grazed/hit/touched.

That's exactly what explains it. They still have to move to dodge after using future sight. How fast they can move to dodge depends on their physical speed and reaction time. It's no use seeing something coming if you're not fast enough to dodge it/react to it.

That's fair. Point taken and agreed.

m theorising Shanks having it. He's got to be a monster at all 3 Haki not just CoC and CoA.

I'm sure he has it as well.. i would also extend BB as he was the first person to show a glimpse of observation..

Highly doubtful that Katakuri would win, but he certainly wouldn't be a slouch.

I think that is a given. He'd do better than Luffy but the outcome would be similar.