One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[grey matter]

Sabo just stomped with no-dif Burgess who must be comparable to Jack at least...
Shown the most powerfull feat with advanced armement... Don't fear to fight Amiral...
He's easily YC1 at very least... I think he's more Marco tier...

Ace was stronger than Sabo by a small gap when they were younger.
If he was still alive, he would be as formidable as Sabo, maybe even more with CoC coating, on par with Yamato (that we all recognize insanly powerfull).

It was more like a mid diff win for Sabo, but yeah Sabo is definitely YC1 or higher.

Yamato has always been a solid YC1 for me

This is headcanon. Back this up

"Ultra REGENERATIVE effects.." per the manga

Regenerative... not anesthetic.

You are factually incorrect and are just using headcannon

I think it's ambiguous.
If it's truly regenerative, why is it said that there would be sever sideeffects soon?

It honestly seems more like the injections that Invankov gave Luffy before the Marineford

Nik thinks Kaido > Mihawk

Wait, you think Mihawk > Kaido then?

If Sanji stomps Queen next chapter, what tier will that put him at ?

YC1+ ?

If Sanji mid diffs, he's YC1
Anything easier than a mid diff, he's YC1+

 

[HereNThere]

Sanji’s portrayal was bad in terms of fighting. Vergo was portrayed to be out of his league, as to why Law defeated Vergo after having difficulty;

Pretty sure they were shown to be rather close still, even after the fracture. Vergo certainly wasn't out of his league. It's wild that that's the one thing that still sticks to him to this day.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 12, 2021 ---

I think it's ambiguous.
If it's truly regenerative, why is it said that there would be sever sideeffects soon?

It's a trade off. Zoro has been healed unnaturally and in a short amount of time. In exchange for that temporary 100%, he'll face severe side effects afterwards.

 

[Crimson Ice]

I disagree with this notion that Oda made Zoro close to Luffy at any point in time recently. When did this happen? When Luffy fought DD, Zoro fought Pica. Before that Luffy fought Hordy and Zoro, Hyouzou. Pre timeskip how did this go? Luffy fought Crocodile, Lucci, Enel, Moria and who did Zoro fight? Mr. 1, Kaku, Ohm... to list a few examples. Now Luffy was not allowed to fight any of Kaido's YC and is fighting Kaido while Zoro tapped out of fighting Kaido and is struggling to fight King, an arc and a few powerups after Luffy fought Cracker and Katakuri. So I'm asking again, when and where have Zoro and Luffy been shown to be close powerwise, recently.

This biased fandumb echo chamber has resulted in people actually believing the coping and ignoring common sense. Instead of seeing Zoro as a stoic, 'badass' swordsman who is Luffy's right hand, people see him as Luffy's equal who should be captain instead due to how cool and serious he is lol which is not the message Oda is sending.

Oda has Luffy as the future PK and Zoro and Sanji as his 2 wings. It's clear as day what the truth and Oda's intentions are. And it has been for a while. After Zoro beat Pica, Sanji skirmished with Oven and Daifuku and then Page One, before Zoro skirmishes with Hawkins and Sanji with Drake IIRC. It's not like Zoro was constantly getting fights while Sanji was doing absolutely nothing. Portrayal matters, hype matters and of course feats matter. That's more than enough IMO to gauge that current Sanji can logically be around King and Queen's level. If Zoro and Sanji were comparable pre time skip and they both trained for 2 years then it's not rocket science. Sanji skirmishing with Vergo while Zoro got a full fight with Pica is not supposed to be seen as a bad feat for Sanji. If people use their heads and take in EVERYTHING Oda provides for us then it isn't hard to know that Sanji, Scopper, Smoothie, Queen & Jozu for example are not far off and are on the same general level as Zoro, Rayleigh, Katakuri, King and Marco. And now here we are with Zoro and Sanji fighting opponents on the same level and struggling and people are acting shocked and brand new.

Notice, the people who always viewed them as rivals and comparable are not surprised and don't have to try to cope with Zoro vs King and Sanji vs Queen, only the people who thought that Zoro >/= Luffy >>>>>>>>>> Sanji. Now why is that? I wonder.

People clinging on to a fight Zoro and Luffy had back in whiskey peak to prove they're equal. Reasonable people know Luffy has been stronger than Zoro for a while.

 

[XXGenesis]

dishonest intelligence. That’s what the echo chamber of One Piece fandom is.

Idc about bias because that can be seen; but overall it’s dishonest intelligence & I personally have too much integrity in my intelligence to be dishonest.

Bringing up old arguments that have been shit down is so boring and redundant, having to address them and start the argument over. I think true fans wouldn’t fall into such a silly cycle to try and make a point.

Your bias of Zoro fans* is too strong to the point you just hate on the character is tired. Especially when it’s a Zoro fan that gives Sanji his just due. You just make us want to shit on the rival because your downplaying Zoro.

Zoro was just on the Rooftop with Luffy preforming on the same lv, before Zoro went down & Luffy went right on down afterwards….Luffy & Zoro fought equally at whiskey Peak; They both took down the Tsunami Wave at Water 7; Zoro even absorbed his pain at Thrilller bark;

Sanji is the one who is never ever comparable or even thought of winning a fight against Luffy, because it just ain’t happening. Sanji also ain’t defeating the #2 like Mr.1, Kaku that wasn’t happening either….

I can’t stand thick headness. Zoro is not equal to Luffy; Sanji is not equal to Zoro; but throughout the Story there will be times when they appear to be. Their scailing is cemented when they fight their opponents.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Stating Zoro isn't equal to Luffy isn't hating, quit crying.

Luffy had been flat out superior to Zoro most of the pre-TS and on the rooftop, Luffy was the most impressive SN. Zoro literally looked better than Luffy for a couple of pages, that's it.

Doing a combination move isn't indicative of being equal. Enis Lobby Luffy literally took down someone almost twice the strength of Zoro's opponent.

Zoro taking Luffy's pain wasn't a sign of them being equal. Was the feat impressive? Yes, but they weren't equals nor was that portrayal.

Sanji not beating the #2 is a more debatable topic than Luffy and Zoro being equals, especially in arcs like Arlong Park and Enis Lobby.

Zoro and Luffy haven't looked like equals for over a decade. People hung on to Whiskey Peak and always used the excuse Zoro hadn't gone all out. Luffy has been clear of Zoro for a very long time.

 

[Pirate Queen]

People clinging on to a fight Zoro and Luffy had back in whiskey peak to prove they're equal. Reasonable people know Luffy has been stronger than Zoro for a while.

People love bringing up that Whiskey Peak fight like it means anything when they know it doesn't.

 

[M3J]

This biased fandumb echo chamber has resulted in people actually believing the coping and ignoring common sense. Instead of seeing Zoro as a stoic, 'badass' swordsman who is Luffy's right hand, people see him as Luffy's equal who should be captain instead due to how cool and serious he is lol which is not the message Oda is sending.

It doesn't help that the non-Straw Hat characters themselves have wondered why Zoro wasn't the captain because of his power, like the Franky crew on Puffing Tom going to Enies Lobby and on Enies Lobby itself. While I agree with you, I do think Oda's trying to hype Zoro's strength as well.

 

[grey matter]

I disagree with this notion that Oda made Zoro close to Luffy at any point in time recently. When did this happen? When Luffy fought DD, Zoro fought Pica. Before that Luffy fought Hordy and Zoro, Hyouzou. Pre timeskip how did this go? Luffy fought Crocodile, Lucci, Enel, Moria and who did Zoro fight? Mr. 1, Kaku, Ohm... to list a few examples. Now Luffy was not allowed to fight any of Kaido's YC and is fighting Kaido while Zoro tapped out of fighting Kaido and is struggling to fight King, an arc and a few powerups after Luffy fought Cracker and Katakuri. So I'm asking again, when and where have Zoro and Luffy been shown to be close powerwise, recently.

This biased fandumb echo chamber has resulted in people actually believing the coping and ignoring common sense. Instead of seeing Zoro as a stoic, 'badass' swordsman who is Luffy's right hand, people see him as Luffy's equal who should be captain instead due to how cool and serious he is lol which is not the message Oda is sending.

Oda has Luffy as the future PK and Zoro and Sanji as his 2 wings. It's clear as day what the truth and Oda's intentions are. And it has been for a while. After Zoro beat Pica, Sanji skirmished with Oven and Daifuku and then Page One, before Zoro skirmishes with Hawkins and Sanji with Drake IIRC. It's not like Zoro was constantly getting fights while Sanji was doing absolutely nothing. Portrayal matters, hype matters and of course feats matter. That's more than enough IMO to gauge that current Sanji can logically be around King and Queen's level. If Zoro and Sanji were comparable pre time skip and they both trained for 2 years then it's not rocket science. Sanji skirmishing with Vergo while Zoro got a full fight with Pica is not supposed to be seen as a bad feat for Sanji. If people use their heads and take in EVERYTHING Oda provides for us then it isn't hard to know that Sanji, Scopper, Smoothie, Queen & Jozu for example are not far off and are on the same general level as Zoro, Rayleigh, Katakuri, King and Marco. And now here we are with Zoro and Sanji fighting opponents on the same level and struggling and people are acting shocked and brand new.

Notice, the people who always viewed them as rivals and comparable are not surprised and don't have to try to cope with Zoro vs King and Sanji vs Queen, only the people who thought that Zoro >/= Luffy >>>>>>>>>> Sanji. Now why is that? I wonder.

Just as Zoro fans try to argue Zoro is Luffy level or close, you're doing the same for Sanji. Sanji isn't as close to Zoro as you are trying to make it out to be.
Sanji isn't on Zoro level, even though sometimes we have incidents which give the appearance that he is. Similar to there being incidents where Zoro is alongside Luffy, where also we know who the clear superior is
Point being, we have seen instances where Sanji and Zoro have appeared alongside each other (portrayal), and we have seen instances where Zoro and Luffy have apeared alongside each other.
But I can't remember any instance where Sanji and Luffy have been portrayed alongside each other. There is a clear and obvious hierarchy within the monster trio

Of course Sanji isn't far below Zoro to the level where Zoro stomps or low diffs.
It would be more of a mid-high diff.

If we are looking at Oda's portrayal and intent, there is a non insignificant gap between the no 2s and no 3s of each of the top crews. Not large enough to the point where no2 stomps, but large enough to the point we all know who is the clear superior is.
- Katakuri was held on a completely different regard by BMP than anyone else, including Smoothie. Nobody else in the crew could even reach close to the respect that Kakaturi commanded from BMP
- Marco and Jozu/Vista (not sure who is the real YC3 here, Oda had stated that WB pirates didn't have a real hierarchy for division commanders) have a sizable gap. Marco became WBP captain after WB died, and was the only commander to be directly compared to admirals in the data book. Not Jozu or Vista
- Rayleigh is again a clear superior to Copper.
- We will see where King and Queen are by the end of the arc, but King has been looking fairly more impressive so far.

Luffy is the inheritor of Shanks' will, who inherited Roger's will. If we want to try and extrapolate portrayal, it's Roger/Rayleigh and Shanks/Beckman relative levels that we have to look forward to.
Rayleigh is much closer to Roger than a typical 2nd in command is to their captain. We can assume the same for Shanks/Beckman, based on inheritance of will and what's generally stated about Ben Beckman.
Point being, Zoro will always be relative to Luffy. Luffy will be the clear superior, but Zoro will always be at a level where he can give Luffy a mid-high diff. Zoro is more relative to his captain than other 2nd in commands to their captains (apart from Roger and Shanks, who share their wills with Luffy)

 

[XXGenesis]

Just as Zoro fans try to argue Zoro is Luffy level or close, you're doing the same for Sanji. Sanji isn't as close to Zoro as you are trying to make it out to be.
Sanji isn't on Zoro level, even though sometimes we have incidents which give the appearance that he is. Similar to there being incidents where Zoro is alongside Luffy, where also we know who the clear superior is
Point being, we have seen instances where Sanji and Zoro have appeared alongside each other (portrayal), and we have seen instances where Zoro and Luffy have apeared alongside each other.
But I can't remember any instance where Sanji and Luffy have been portrayed alongside each other. There is a clear and obvious hierarchy within the monster trio

Of course Sanji isn't far below Zoro to the level where Zoro stomps or low diffs.
It would be more of a mid-high diff.

If we are looking at Oda's portrayal and intent, there is a non insignificant gap between the no 2s and no 3s of each of the top crews. Not large enough to the point where no2 stomps, but large enough to the point we all know who is the clear superior is.
- Katakuri was held on a completely different regard by BMP than anyone else, including Smoothie. Nobody else in the crew could even reach close to the respect that Kakaturi commanded from BMP
- Marco and Jozu/Vista (not sure who is the real YC3 here, Oda had stated that WB pirates didn't have a real hierarchy for division commanders) have a sizable gap. Marco became WBP captain after WB died, and was the only commander to be directly compared to admirals in the data book. Not Jozu or Vista
- Rayleigh is again a clear superior to Copper.
- We will see where King and Queen are by the end of the arc, but King has been looking fairly more impressive so far.

Luffy is the inheritor of Shanks' will, who inherited Roger's will. If we want to try and extrapolate portrayal, it's Roger/Rayleigh and Shanks/Beckman relative levels that we have to look forward to.
Rayleigh is much closer to Roger than a typical 2nd in command is to their captain. We can assume the same for Shanks/Beckman, based on inheritance of will and what's generally stated about Ben Beckman.
Point being, Zoro will always be relative to Luffy. Luffy will be the clear superior, but Zoro will always be at a level where he can give Luffy a mid-high diff. Zoro is more relative to his captain than other 2nd in commands to their captains (apart from Roger and Shanks, who share their wills with Luffy)

Thank you.

The dishonest intelligence. Is what makes Zoro fans says. **%#% Sanji fans & just hate n him, because there is room to hate.

It’s like what’s the point of meeting ya half way, when your just still gonna be biased and try to hype Sanji up for what?

Zoro is coddled…what?! Luffy hasn’t defeated a main villain without help, or fortunate circumstance, that’s coddled….If he’s coddled by the author Sanji is shitted on by the author.

Oda just told us yes Sanji sucks I’m gonna power him up through his family science that he hates and would rather die. He just proved that he sucked ass before he ever put on that raid suit and his 2years of training was crap compared to Zoro’s & Luffy.

I just hate false sentiments traveling around that are stupid asf. Either way as close as Sanji appears to be, because he’s kicking Queen’s ass. Zoro is just gonna demonstrate why he’s still on a different level.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Zoro wasn't strong enough and was handed a magic sword to even do anything to Kaido but sure I guess Sanji is the only one getting handed out power ups to stay relevant... talk about bias.

I'm not even a fan of Sanji but the sheer down playing every fucking chapter he is in is just annoying and had to be addressed and then you have people pretending like they aren't heavily biased. At least I'm up front with my dislike of Sanji down play and Zoro over the top praising.

 

[Fallou]

Just as Zoro fans try to argue Zoro is Luffy level or close, you're doing the same for Sanji. Sanji isn't as close to Zoro as you are trying to make it out to be.
Sanji isn't on Zoro level, even though sometimes we have incidents which give the appearance that he is. Similar to there being incidents where Zoro is alongside Luffy, where also we know who the clear superior is
Point being, we have seen instances where Sanji and Zoro have appeared alongside each other (portrayal), and we have seen instances where Zoro and Luffy have apeared alongside each other.
But I can't remember any instance where Sanji and Luffy have been portrayed alongside each other. There is a clear and obvious hierarchy within the monster trio

Of course Sanji isn't far below Zoro to the level where Zoro stomps or low diffs.
It would be more of a mid-high diff.

If we are looking at Oda's portrayal and intent, there is a non insignificant gap between the no 2s and no 3s of each of the top crews. Not large enough to the point where no2 stomps, but large enough to the point we all know who is the clear superior is.
- Katakuri was held on a completely different regard by BMP than anyone else, including Smoothie. Nobody else in the crew could even reach close to the respect that Kakaturi commanded from BMP
- Marco and Jozu/Vista (not sure who is the real YC3 here, Oda had stated that WB pirates didn't have a real hierarchy for division commanders) have a sizable gap. Marco became WBP captain after WB died, and was the only commander to be directly compared to admirals in the data book. Not Jozu or Vista
- Rayleigh is again a clear superior to Copper.
- We will see where King and Queen are by the end of the arc, but King has been looking fairly more impressive so far.

Luffy is the inheritor of Shanks' will, who inherited Roger's will. If we want to try and extrapolate portrayal, it's Roger/Rayleigh and Shanks/Beckman relative levels that we have to look forward to.
Rayleigh is much closer to Roger than a typical 2nd in command is to their captain. We can assume the same for Shanks/Beckman, based on inheritance of will and what's generally stated about Ben Beckman.
Point being, Zoro will always be relative to Luffy. Luffy will be the clear superior, but Zoro will always be at a level where he can give Luffy a mid-high diff. Zoro is more relative to his captain than other 2nd in commands to their captains (apart from Roger and Shanks, who share their wills with Luffy)

So much headcannon in this post.

What indicates that Rayleigh is "a clear superior" to Scopper, when we don't know anything about the guy, and have barely seen Rayleigh fight?

What feats does King have that make him that much more impressive than Queen?

Where does that Marco and Jozu/ Vista gap idea even come from? Vista traded blows with Mihawk, I could easily use that to state they're on par (which I don't believe they are). But you see my point.

And whatever got you thinking that Rayleigh was "closer to his captain" than usual #2s?
What feats of his? Stopping Kizaru? Marco did more or less the same. Does that make him close to WB then?

I got nothing against you but there is literaly zero solid backup to anything you just stated.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Just as Zoro fans try to argue Zoro is Luffy level or close, you're doing the same for Sanji. Sanji isn't as close to Zoro as you are trying to make it out to be.
Sanji isn't on Zoro level, even though sometimes we have incidents which give the appearance that he is. Similar to there being incidents where Zoro is alongside Luffy, where also we know who the clear superior is
Point being, we have seen instances where Sanji and Zoro have appeared alongside each other (portrayal), and we have seen instances where Zoro and Luffy have apeared alongside each other.
But I can't remember any instance where Sanji and Luffy have been portrayed alongside each other. There is a clear and obvious hierarchy within the monster trio

Of course Sanji isn't far below Zoro to the level where Zoro stomps or low diffs.
It would be more of a mid-high diff.

If we are looking at Oda's portrayal and intent, there is a non insignificant gap between the no 2s and no 3s of each of the top crews. Not large enough to the point where no2 stomps, but large enough to the point we all know who is the clear superior is.
- Katakuri was held on a completely different regard by BMP than anyone else, including Smoothie. Nobody else in the crew could even reach close to the respect that Kakaturi commanded from BMP
- Marco and Jozu/Vista (not sure who is the real YC3 here, Oda had stated that WB pirates didn't have a real hierarchy for division commanders) have a sizable gap. Marco became WBP captain after WB died, and was the only commander to be directly compared to admirals in the data book. Not Jozu or Vista
- Rayleigh is again a clear superior to Copper.
- We will see where King and Queen are by the end of the arc, but King has been looking fairly more impressive so far.

Luffy is the inheritor of Shanks' will, who inherited Roger's will. If we want to try and extrapolate portrayal, it's Roger/Rayleigh and Shanks/Beckman relative levels that we have to look forward to.
Rayleigh is much closer to Roger than a typical 2nd in command is to their captain. We can assume the same for Shanks/Beckman, based on inheritance of will and what's generally stated about Ben Beckman.
Point being, Zoro will always be relative to Luffy. Luffy will be the clear superior, but Zoro will always be at a level where he can give Luffy a mid-high diff. Zoro is more relative to his captain than other 2nd in commands to their captains (apart from Roger and Shanks, who share their wills with Luffy)

While I disagree with a few of your points, I feel like it's a overall solid take on the situation.

 

[LadyVados]

So much headcannon in this post.

What indicates that Rayleigh is "a clear superior" to Scopper, when we don't know anything about the guy, and have barely seen Rayleigh fight?

What feats does King have that make him that much more impressive than Queen?

Where does that Marco and Jozu/ Vista gap idea even come from? Vista traded blows with Mihawk, I could easily use that to state they're on par (which I don't believe they are). But you see my point.

And whatever got you thinking that Rayleigh was "closer to his captain" than usual #2s?
What feats of his? Stopping Kizaru? Marco did more or less the same. Does that make him close to WB then?

I got nothing against you but there is literaly zero solid backup to anything you just stated.

Rayleigh is literally the most famous man in the world. And Garp put him on the same pedestal as WB.

Scopper hasn’t even appeared in One Piece.

 

[grey matter]

Thank you.

The dishonest intelligence. Is what makes Zoro fans says. **%#% Sanji fans & just hate n him, because there is room to hate.

It’s like what’s the point of meeting ya half way, when your just still gonna be biased and try to hype Sanji up for what?

Zoro is coddled…what?! Luffy hasn’t defeated a main villain without help, or fortunate circumstance, that’s coddled….If he’s coddled by the author Sanji is shitted on by the author.

Oda just told us yes Sanji sucks I’m gonna power him up through his family science that he hates and would rather die. He just proved that he sucked ass before he ever put on that raid suit and his 2years of training was crap compared to Zoro’s & Luffy.

I just hate false sentiments traveling around that are stupid asf. Either way as close as Sanji appears to be, because he’s kicking Queen’s ass. Zoro is just gonna demonstrate why he’s still on a different level.

Could've been worded better, but gotta agree on the overall sentiment.

Zoro wasn't strong enough and was handed a magic sword to even do anything to Kaido but sure I guess Sanji is the only one getting handed out power ups to stay relevant... talk about bias.

I'm not even a fan of Sanji but the sheer down playing every fucking chapter he is in is just annoying and had to be addressed and then you have people pretending like they aren't heavily biased. At least I'm up front with my dislike of Sanji down play and Zoro over the top praising.

Sanji is my 3rd fav strawhat (Zoro is my no1, to be transparent; and 2nd is Brook), my points aren't coming from a "Sanji hater" at all

The dude has a point.

There is a significant change in how Oda has treated Sanji pre and post timeskip.
Sanji hasn't really done anything equivalent to the amazing stuff he did in Alabasta, Waters7 and Enies Lobby.

Sanji was weaker than Vergo, while Zoro essentially stomped Pica.

Sanji vs Queen is the first real fight he has gotten since timeskip, other than skirmishes with Ovens, Page One, Vergo etc.
While Zoro had two major fights (Pica and Kaido), a minor fight (vs Killer), along with skirmishes with Hawkins, Kyoshiro etc

I will agree with you on general hypocrisy when it comes to Raid Suit/Germa biology and Enma.
I love the Raid Suit all together, and was happy for him that he got to realize one of his two life goals - invisibility. It was ironic that he got it from his estranged family too. Too bad he threw it away, I'm hoping they salvage it somehow.

So much headcannon in this post.

What indicates that Rayleigh is "a clear superior" to Scopper, when we don't know anything about the guy, and have barely seen Rayleigh fight?

What feats does King have that make him that much more impressive than Queen?

Where does that Marco and Jozu/ Vista gap idea even come from? Vista traded blows with Mihawk, I could easily use that to state they're on par (which I don't believe they are). But you see my point.

And whatever got you thinking that Rayleigh was "closer to his captain" than usual #2s?
What feats of his? Stopping Kizaru? Marco did more or less the same. Does that make him close to WB then?

I got nothing against you but there is literaly zero solid backup to anything you just stated.

Not really headcanon, but clear and obvious portrayals.

Rayleigh has much more clout. Plus portrayals of "Roger's right hand man". We all know Rayleigh for a reason, while Copper is barely known. Garp hypes Rayleigh, while no mention of Copper
Rayleigh would stalemate Kizaru or give him an extreme diff while old and rusted. He would be Oden level in his peak, a borderline Yonko tier


King has been overwhelming Zoro since the very beginning. While Queen has mostly been getting smacked by Sanji, even in his hybrid form.
It's quite clear who has the better showing so far


Because Marco became the captain after WB died? Because Marco is the only one who actually fought admirals as almost equals? He fought evenly with Kizaru, though both were casual. His actual solid feat is outright matching angry Akainu's attack power, when he wanted to kill Luffy. As well as fighting King and Queen in a 2v1 for hours, while expending energy healing up thousands of soldiers.
Vista's feat is commendable, he fought on par with casual Mihawk who is Yonko tier. But Mihawk was very casual in the entire war, while the admirals were far more serious. It's definitely a good feat since obviously some pleb wouldn't get praised by Mihawk, but we aren't really sure what to make of it.
Jozu injured Aokiji when he was offguard, and held his own against Aokiji. All right feat. But he got frozen (tho off guard), and couldn't break free from ice once he got frozen. While Doflamingo could break free from Aokiji's ice. Also, there is Doflamingo trolling Jozu. He doesn't look impressive compared to Marco or Vista.

Being a solid admiral tier while old and rusted? Simply extrapolating Rayleigh's level to when he was at his peak, would put the dude at Yonko tier or borderline Yonko tier.
While the typical YC1 gets mid-high diff'd by any admiral (Marco is a bit more special since he was WB's right hand man). People like King and Katakuri aren't even admiral tier in their peak, while Rayleigh is admiral tier when old and retired. How can one make it more obvious that Rayleigh isn't your usual YC1? Rayleigh is more like Oden was to Whitebeard.
Difference is Rayliegh was outright implied to be on Kizaru's level while being FAR from his peak. While Marco would lose high-extreme diff to Kizaru, while he was at his peak.

 

[LadyVados]

Zoro wasn't strong enough and was handed a magic sword to even do anything to Kaido but sure I guess Sanji is the only one getting handed out power ups to stay relevant...

As if Luffy wasn’t handed a super OP power-up in chapter 1 that is the sole reason behind ALL of his success and ALL of his feats, that was so OP a senior CP0 member like WsW was sacked and made a criminal for losing it.

(Not to mention being trained by the Pirate King level hero of the marines since birth and being born to a line of legendary top tiers whose relationship with him has saved his skin more than once… oh and being best buds with one of the 4 Yonko who saved his ass at Marineford… and getting the legendary hat of the pirate king, trained in Haki by the Dark King of the Pirates, maybe being the son of 1 of the 7 warlords if the trans crocodile theory is true, am I missing anything ?)

But sure, Zoro’s a cheat because he got a cool sword.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Sanji is my 3rd fav strawhat (Zoro is my no1, to be transparent; and 2nd is Brook), my points aren't coming from a "Sanji hater" at all

The dude has a point.

There is a significant change in how Oda has treated Sanji pre and post timeskip.
Sanji hasn't really done anything equivalent to the amazing stuff he did in Alabasta, Waters7 and Enies Lobby.

Sanji was weaker than Vergo, while Zoro essentially stomped Pica.

Sanji vs Queen is the first real fight he has gotten since timeskip, other than skirmishes with Ovens, Page One, Vergo etc.
While Zoro had two major fights (Pica and Kaido), a minor fight (vs Killer), along with skirmishes with Hawkins, Kyoshiro etc

I will agree with you on general hypocrisy when it comes to Raid Suit/Germa biology and Enma.
I love the Raid Suit all together, and was happy for him that he got to realize one of his two life goals - invisibility. It was ironic that he got it from his estranged family too. Too bad he threw it away, I'm hoping they salvage it somehow.

Not to call you out, but it's very easy to tell when Zoro is someone's favorite character, but thank you for the honesty.

I want to clarify you Pica and Vergo comment and it perfectly explains what I have been saying this entire time.

Sanji only had a brief skirmish with Vergo and was putting up a solid fight against him even with a broken leg, but it never reached conclusion and it is not uncommon for Strawhats to be put into a corner at the beginning of a fight so Sanji vs Vergo went how I would have expected a Strawhat fight to go.

And now Zoro vs Pica. 2 points.
1. Pica played hide and seek the entire time and had no intention of having a straight 1v1 with Zoro
2. Zoro eventually needed help to cut down Pica by being thrown across Dressrosa. If that hadn't of happened Pica would have just kept evadi g like he had the entire fight. His DF was just too elusive unless Zoro had some outside help


So like I said, there is heavy double standard when it comes to the 2 of them

 

[LadyVados]

I have a question, we know that supreme grade swords are much stronger than great grade swords.

That means Ace is obviously a bigger power-up than Enma,

How come no one ever says that Roger is only as strong as he is because of his sword ? If Enma is such a big-power then Ace must be a truly massive power-up and Roger with a regular sword would probably be several tiers weaker right ?

 

[grey matter]

Not to call you out, but it's very easy to tell when Zoro is someone's favorite character, but thank you for the honesty.

I want to clarify you Pica and Vergo comment and it perfectly explains what I have been saying this entire time.

Sanji only had a brief skirmish with Vergo and was putting up a solid fight against him even with a broken leg, but it never reached conclusion and it is not uncommon for Strawhats to be put into a corner at the beginning of a fight so Sanji vs Vergo went how I would have expected a Strawhat fight to go.

And now Zoro vs Pica. 2 points.
1. Pica played hide and seek the entire time and had no intention of having a straight 1v1 with Zoro
2. Zoro eventually needed help to cut down Pica by being thrown across Dressrosa. If that hadn't of happened Pica would have just kept evadi g like he had the entire fight. His DF was just too elusive unless Zoro had some outside help


So like I said, there is heavy double standard when it comes to the 2 of them

Has been a long time since I watched PH/Dresrossa, but wasn't it Vergo himself who broke Sanji's leg to begin with? The way the fight was going implied Vergo was stronger. Though you may be right, and Sanji might have gotten the W eventually, but in more of an extreme diff battle.

You have a point about Zoro vs Pica.
But then there is also the thing about perception, he slized in half a large city sized mountain in half. Pica also had fully body armament haki with hardening, and Zoro still stomped him


Regardless, I assume you can agree there is a significant difference between how Oda has treated Sanji pre and post timeskip? The nosebleed stuff in Fish island + him no longer doing the amazing/genius stuff he used to do pre timeskip like in W7, Enies Lobby, Alabasta, Skypia etc?
When Sanji is getting his first real fight post timeskip, Zoro is getting his 3rd (4th if we're counting Killer)


I don't think it's double standard to state that Sanji has been relatively lacking in combat since timeskip.
Though Sanji had got much more focus on his character, compared to Zoro who literally is the same character since Fishman arc.
Overall, both have been lacking relative to pre timeskip. Sanji in combat, Zoro in character.

 

[Urek Mazino]

I would say that strength hierarchy has always been clear.

Luffy > Zoro > Sanji

The difference in strength might be bigger or smaller at times but the order never changed.

One thing i don't agree with some ppl is about Enma.

It is just a sword that forcibly draws your haki and allows you to release more at once than you would be able to on your own. So yeah, it does make your attacks stronger because you use more haki but it still uses your own haki. You can't use more than what you have. Strength of the attack still depends on the user, it does not magically allow someone to cut a yonko.

 

[Fallou]

I have a question, we know that supreme grade swords are much stronger than great grade swords.

That means Ace is obviously a bigger power-up than Enma,

How come no one ever says that Roger is only as strong as he is because of his sword ? If Enma is such a big-power then Ace must be a truly massive power-up and Roger with a regular sword would probably be several tiers weaker right ?

Because Enma does something that no other sword in the OP verse has ever been known to do: draw out the user's haki to a crazy extent.
We don't know that any other sword does that, let alone Roger's.
Enma has clearly been shown to have powered up Zoro (even though he does have a lot of merit on his own, and Enma would probably kill most people) when no such is known to have happened with Roger...

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 12, 2021 ---

I would say that strength hierarchy has always been clear.

Luffy > Zoro > Sanji

The difference in strength might be bigger or smaller at times but the order never changed.

One thing i don't agree with some ppl is about Enma.

It is just a sword that forcibly draws your haki and allows you to release more at once than you would be able to on your own. So yeah, it does make your attacks stronger because you use more haki but it still uses your own haki. You can't use more than what you have. Strength of the attack still depends on the user, it does not magically allow someone to cut a yonko.

I absolutely agree with that hierarchy. We have a lot of evidence to back it up, unlike the Zoro>Luffy or Sanji>Zoro delusions