Discussion One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

He is at their level, he is not even using gears and hybrid kaido is struggling with BASe Luffy. Gear 2, 3 and 4 make this a miss match.

Kaido is significantly weakened and burnt out

 

[Rmstorm]

Kaido is significantly weakened and burnt out

Luffy is also barely standing, that is what the japanese kanji on the raw version of 1027 said. So Luffy is OP. But it makes sense considering he will be fighting Blackbeard right after Wano.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Luffy is also barely standing, that is what the japanese kanji on the raw version of 1027 said. So Luffy is OP. But it makes sense considering he will be fighting Blackbeard right after Wano.

If luffy faced the gauntlet kaido faced , he’d be long dead
Luffy fought mostly grunts and light skirmishes ( Yamato and ulti )

kaido legit put down the scabbards , half the supernovas ( Zoro. Law and luffy ) , beaten luffy twice and was gonna take Yamato down as well as holding up the island
Quality of opponents and feats of kaido still

significantly higher than what luffy has faced

 

[Pirate Queen]

Pound for pound Luffy and Kaido are probably equally damaged.

Luffy was taking 100% damage from Yonko. Kaido was taking the most damage from Luffy/Yamato but mainly damage from people that individually couldn't cut it in the damage damage department.

Not to take away from Kaido's gauntlet at all, but as in the damage Luffy sustained and the damage Kaido sustains to their bodies... they are both pretty damaged

 

[BoyNextDoor]

King is a mid/high diff for luffy
Styles makes fights
And luffy clearly isn’t quite kaido/big mum level yet

i actually think luffys style is great. its very neutral and fundamentals based. no gimmicks, no hax. look at how the strongest people fight. just punch, kicks or some kind of weapon. nothing too fancy. they just have basically all their physical stats maxed out. even if you have a hax devil fruit, it aint gonna carry. the devil fruit user will still need his base skills on point to compete at the highest levels.

styles only sway fights at mid - low levels where alot of abilities dont have counters. but the author has designed haki to basically even all of that stuff out. i know theres still troll fruits out there like peronas that might troll alot of strong guys but who knows, haki might just be able to defend against that altogether too.

 

[Crimson Ice]

You're right about the Spoiler part my bad, and I never put words in your mouth.

At the beginning of the fight Kata sees Luffy as inferior and tries to finish him off quickly with mochi. Then Kata realizes Luffy is getting stronger and may be on his level. This doesnt automatically mean that Luffy IS on Kata's level.
People (not just you) dont understand that Kata outclasses Luffy in every aspect except WILL, but that doesnt mean much in a power level discussion. Kata did injure himself to give Luffy a fair chance because of Flampes interruption.
But give them 1v1 no Brulee, no Flampe or anything Luffy would still lose, he would be a high diff for Kata but Kata would still win.

As I mentioned before, Kata's CoA is greater than Luffys CoA, as we've seen countless times where when Kata punches Luffy, it stings Luffy's arms or hands. The only ones we've seen do that Luffy have been Kata and Kaido, implying they have stronger CoA than Luffy.
I dont see how Luffy would get around Katas superior CoA in a second round.
Not to forget, Gear 4 is a temporary power up, unless Luffy manages to knock out Kata in those 10 minutes or whatever, then will Luffy win, because if not Kata will kill him after G4 runs out. Remember no Brulee or plot in this.
Kata fought G4 Boundman and Snakeman and he was able to still have the upper hand. Boundman managed to attack Kata because he was surprised and enraged. Snakeman was able to land a few hits but Kata was still fast.

I just dont see how people think Luffy would defeat Katakuri afterwards, not until Luffy learned Advanced CoA in Udon and managed to get a better control of his Future Sight would we see Luffy high diff Kata. Now on the rooftop, Luffy would mid diff Kata.

Im done arguing over this.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 24, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 24, 2021 ---

lol I noticed I never responded to this. And you did put words in my mouth, I never said Luffy outclassed him.


Yes, Katakuri was intrigued by Luffy and implies he could reach his level, but later on Katakuri flat out says Luffy was on his level. It this point it's your headcanon>Katakuri's words.

Eerm, you realise if Katakuri has a high dif fight against Luffy both of them are on the same level....And I doubt Katakuri would win if you put a fresh Luffy post future fight vs Katakuri. Luffy's endurance and overall was too much for Kata. The only reason Luffy is beat up at the start was because he was WAYYYY WEAKER at the start.


Katakuri had better CoA, but it wasn't to a large enough degree that Luffy wasn't able to hurt him. Luffy's hands were damaged yet he was still able to hurt Katakuri regardless. Katakuri only had the upper hand against boundman because that was pre-FS Luffy, Snakeman and Luffy were roughly on par, still would give Katakuri an edge.

People think Luffy can win because his endurance outclasses Katakuri's, it's the simple. Luffy barley got any licks on Katakuri yet he was still significantly damaged at the end of the fight.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2021 ---

The fact that he seems damn near nigh invulnerable
It would take time luffy to pull out conqueror coated attacks and he’d sustain damage

also seems Zoro has caught up to Yamato now

Wouldn't say that. Yamato was still scrapping with Kaido, Zoro hasn't even finished King off yet.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Interesting depiction of the X drake , queen, who’s who and Hawkins confrontation
They kinda got the drop on him more clear here ( and it makes more sense ) , if it was an all out brawl the area would have been more destroyed
We still don’t have a clear gauge on his true strength
I think he’s at yonkou commander level but the level I am not sure yet

 

[M3J]

So Zoro is fighting someone around the level of Katakuri, whom Luffy may be able to one-shot by this point?

What is this based on? I highly doubt Luffy could one-shot Katakuri as he is now, even with Future Sight.

 

[grey matter]

So Zoro is fighting someone around the level of Katakuri, whom Luffy may be able to one-shot by this point?

1. Luffy wasn't Katakuri level in beginning of Wano arc, he reached and surpassed that level only after intense training in prison.
2. IMO Kaido one shotting G4 Luffy is an outlier. Everyone seems to be tanking hits from Kaido now. Like, Law was hit by the same attack from hybrid form instead of base, and the dude is perfectly fine, fighting BM for hours since then and tanking countless more hits from her
3. Kaido has gone through a massive gauntlet of strong fighters, two rounds which included Luffy himself. All the while spending energy flying Onigashima across the sea. The dude starts the fight exhausted, barely able to keep Onigashima afloat. While Luffy relatively fresh, rested up and eating months worth of food

And lastly, like @Lord Traffy Law said, styles make a huge difference.

Katakuri and King are same tier overall, but they have different pros and cons. King seems to be pure stats, while Katakuri's style revolves around avoiding hits.

King is no selling attacks that damage Kaido. I used the think there was some trick to his insane tankiness, but it's increasingly looking like that isn't the case (with Queen's statement + Zoro getting advanced conqueror's). It just seems like this dude has insane defenses that can only be got around by brute power.
Luffy will have to use much more effort against King than Katakuri, against whom countering the future sight was the key.
But, maybe there is a trick to King as well, we'll see

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 28, 2021 ---

Where?
There's a big difference between being rivals and being equals.
Kidd and Law are Luffy's rivals but they're not even close to Luffy in power, right now.
Luffy's now miles away from the other Supernovas with, I think, only Zoro hardly running behind him.
Unless their "awakening" are on Katakuri and Doffy's level, they wouldn't last long against a 3 Advanced haki user Luffy

Law's and Kid's performance against BM already has pushed them to YC1 tier or above. They've been fighting and non stop tanking attacks from her for hours, and has forced her to use up 1 year of her lifespan

And unlike Kaido who has gone through an insane gauntlet and exhausted, barely able to hold Onigashima afloat; BM pretty much only fought against Law and Kid. She pretty much took any damage prior to this fight.
Assuming they win against BM by the end of the arc, they will have 2v1'd a FRESH Yonko. Kid and Law will be right up with Zoro (assuming Zoro's powerup), as YC1+

So yeah, they will be relatively close to Luffy. I can see end of the arc Law/Kid/Zoro giving end of the arc Luffy a mid-high diff battle

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2021 ---

Luffy is also barely standing, that is what the japanese kanji on the raw version of 1027 said. So Luffy is OP. But it makes sense considering he will be fighting Blackbeard right after Wano.

Yeah, Luffy will be Yonko tier NEXT arc
Luffy rested for hours and ate up months worth of food. He's starting this in a far better state than Kaido, who is exhausted to the point he can barely keep the island afloat.
And let's not forget that any damage Luffy has at the moment, is almost entirely attributed to the two rounds he had with Kaido on rooftop

The dude isn't Yonko tier yet, he's solid admiral tier now (which is nothing to scoff at either, that's the closest tier to Yonkos). His will as a conqueror has reached Yonko tier, but not in other stats
He will be Yonko tier when he faces BB

 

[aberick]

" Kaido is significantly weakened and burnt out " lmao, i wish i was the guy weakened like kaido, an natural zoan, the biggest tanker in one piece, in other hand the other guy got knocked up two times, so if this guy win after getting knocked up two times against the one which was slightly weakened and in better state its ONLY because of that

 

[grey matter]

" Kaido is significantly weakened and burnt out " lmao, i wish i was the guy weakened like kaido, an natural zoan, the biggest tanker in one piece, in other hand the other guy got knocked up two times, so if this guy win after getting knocked up two times against the one which was slightly weakened and in better state its ONLY because of that

Strawman argument and barely legible.

Nobody said it's only because of that. Of course because Luffy himself has gotten stronger over the two fights in rooftop, Kaido wouldn't lose against some scrub just because he's weakened. Just saying that him being weakened by a massive gauntlet against a bunch of strong characters is also a major factor.
But sure, you can go onto pretend that he's "slightly" weakened when he can barely keep the island floating, with Yamato worrying that he's gonna run out of gas before the island reaches the capital. Fanboy logic is amazing.

Just wait and think for a moment. We still have like 3 arcs to go. BB needs to be a great threat in one of the upcoming arcs. If Luffy is currently Yonko level, does it narratively make much sense?

 

[Fox666]

2. IMO Kaido one shotting G4 Luffy is an outlier. Everyone seems to be tanking hits from Kaido now. Like, Law was hit by the same attack from hybrid form instead of base, and the dude is perfectly fine, fighting BM for hours since then and tanking countless more hits from her

Luffy explained that Kaido managed to do that with an infused attack, and Luffy can now do an attack on the same level

In-universe, Kaido and Big Mom choose not to one-shot Luffy, Kid and the others

 

[grey matter]

Luffy explained that Kaido managed to do that with an infused attack, and Luffy can now do an attack on the same level

In-universe, Kaido and Big Mom choose not to one-shot Luffy, Kid and the others

No reason to believe Kaido didn't do that against Law. Or that BM isn't using those against Law and Kid when they've been battling for hours.

I'll go with the simpler option that BM and Kaido simply aren't capable of one shotting these characters.
There is no reason BM wouldn't have defeated Law and Kid in hours, if she was capable of just one shotting them. Not only that, they even forced BM to go beyond her limits and eat up one year worth of her lifespan. This is a better feat than what base Kaido (or really anyone who fought against BM in the last 20 years) accomplished against BM in their battle at Onigashima.

It's simply that, we've reached a stage where the top tiers among the supernova have reached a level where they can't be flicked by the Yonkos anymore.

 

[Fox666]

No reason to believe Kaido didn't do that against Law. Or that BM isn't using those against Law and Kid when they've been battling for hours.

I'll go with the simpler option that BM and Kaido simply aren't capable of one shotting these characters.
There is no reason BM wouldn't have defeated Law and Kid in hours, if she was capable of just one shotting them. Not only that, they even forced BM to go beyond her limits and eat up one year worth of her lifespan. This is a better feat than what base Kaido (or really anyone who fought against BM in the last 20 years) accomplished against BM in their battle at Onigashima.

It's simply that, we've reached a stage where the top tiers among the supernova have reached a level where they can't be flicked by the Yonkos anymore.

But could Zoro or King withstand a CoC infused blow?

 

[Rein Avara]

I don't think anyone on that roof (Big Mom excluded) is withstanding a CoC infused attack.

 

[XXGenesis]

So Zoro is fighting someone around the level of Katakuri, whom Luffy may be able to one-shot by this point?

YC1 do not get one shot by Yonkou’s.
The rooftop is proof of that.
Even Queen got back up from Big Mom’s casual lunch. It wasn’t that big

King and Queen were terrified and seemingly helpless against of Big Mom while she was bound in seastone.

Big Mom, Luffy, and Kaido are simply in another league at this point.

King may not be one-shot material for Luffy but it's certainly a low-mid diff for him. If not now, by the end of his fight with Kaido... and he isn't even awakened

I don’t think Kaido has an awaken form.

Both Zoro & Luffy already accumulated damage before they were taken out by Kaido’s ACoC attack….So no Yc1 don’t get one shot. They have enough ability to survive more than 1 attack, serious or not

 

[grey matter]

I don't think anyone on that roof (Big Mom excluded) is withstanding a CoC infused attack.

Law and Kid have been fighting BM for hours, and have forced BM to go beyond her limits. Law even tanked a thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido on screen, without much issues. Safe to say they certainly can.
Luffy certainly can. Pretty sure he tanked many off screen in R2 (if you count blocking a coated attack, he did a few on screen as well), before going down. In R3, we will see him doing so on screen as well.

Zoro, by scaling certainly can. If you count blocking, he did against a combo attack from Kaido and BM, albeit barely. But but it was a combo attack and much stronger than individual attacks from Kaido.
He tanked many other attacks, though I don't think they were conqueror's infused

Killer, maybe. He did tank a few attacks from the Yonkos, but I don't think they were conqueror's infused

But could Zoro or King withstand a CoC infused blow?

Unless there is some trick to King's insane defence, he 100% is. The dude is no selling attacks that damaged Kaido

Zoro is pretty tanky, so I am sure he would as well. He tanked multiple attacks from Kaido/BM, unless you think coated attacks are on an entirely different level from even named attacks, this should be enough proof he can

I don't see any YC1 or even YC2 characters getting one shot by conqueror's infused blows (unless of course they're some glass canon relying on abilities, like Cracker for eg)

 

[BoyNextDoor]

didn't that novel about ace say that ace was eventually able to fight whitebeard for hours?

 

[grey matter]

didn't that novel about ace say that ace was eventually able to fight whitebeard for hours?

I don't know about novel, but the dude was getting stomped by WB in sleep lol, in the flashbacks. But then again, this was the Ace of 2-3 years ago that stalemated Jinbe. He did get stronger over time, so maybe you're right

Do you remember when this had happened? Was it when he joined, or after he became YC2?

 

[BoyNextDoor]

I don't know about novel, but the dude was getting stomped by WB in sleep lol, in the flashbacks. But then again, this was the Ace of 2-3 years ago that stalemated Jinbe. He did get stronger over time, so maybe you're right

yeah in the novel it goes into detail about aces time on the ship and how he eventually became a whitebeard pirate. he challenged whitebeard 99 times and on the 99th time he forced whitebeard to use his devil fruit. then their 100th battle took place on an island while their crews watched.

so yeah commanders 1 and 2 shouldn't be getting swatted by anyone tbh. luffy only got pwned in his first encounter with kaidou because the author loves doing that to luffy every single time he fights a new strong person. they body him easily to start off with and then he comes back and does better. happened with megallen, moria, lucci, crocodile, doflamingo, and even friggin caesar.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 28, 2021 ---

ace wasn't second division commander yet though. he was just on the ship trying to find an opportunity to take whitebeard out. but he eventually started to get trained by thatch so the ace that fought whitebeard by the end was much much stronger than the ace that fought jimbei for 5 days