One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Prime xebec>=prime roger>=prime wb ( all 3 nearly same but all 3 belong to pk level which is above yonko lvl).

There is PK level? Didn't think Pirate King was a title given for strength.

I consider the top pirate level to be Yonko. It's just that there is variation in strength, just like YC1s

 

[grey matter]

The reason why this discussion is of poor quality is because the forum users who supports King says "it's laughable you think Katakuri will win" or "Laughable you think King doesn't have CoA feats just because it wasn't shown". But when asked for manga proof, they bring in wind and rocks like Moss Green.
However, forum users that support Katakuri shoes them proof, but they choose to ignore it.

This isn't true.

We point to King being above Katakuri in pretty much every stat except CQC (due to future sight)

King was outright above Zoro in every single stat, before Zoro got advanced conqueror's. After which, Zoro was above him in attack power, but King was still above him in other stats.

Regarding King having poor armament haki. Not sure where this is coming from. King's attire is pitch black, so not like we would see it anyway lol.
King need to have armament haki to match Zoro's own, or else his sword would simply break. And Zoro is pretty much an armament haki specialist. King's armament has to be around that ballpark.

King is pretty fast, his speed would allow him to land attacks even through future sight, though Katakuri will still dodge most of them.
King has good AOE with his fire, and AOE counters Katakuri's fighting style with future sight (due to limit on how much he can tweak his body)

In this particular mtachup, King wins high-extreme diff due to his AOE.

There is PK level? Didn't think Pirate King was a title given for strength.

I consider the top pirate level to be Yonko. It's just that there is variation in strength, just like YC1s

Roger and WB were special cases, even amongst Yonko tiers. They were a cut above the rest. Their no2s (Rayleigh/Oden) themselves were Yonko tier

Old WB (in meds) was still the strongest pirate. His prime self should be a cut above the rest.

 

[I Am Atomic]

This isn't true.

We point to King being above Katakuri in pretty much every stat except CQC (due to future sight)

King was outright above Zoro in every single stat, before Zoro got advanced conqueror's. After which, Zoro was above him in attack power, but King was still above him in other stats.

Regarding King having poor armament haki. Not sure where this is coming from. King's attire is pitch black, so not like we would see it anyway lol.
King need to have armament haki to match Zoro's own, or else his sword would simply break. And Zoro is pretty much an armament haki specialist. King's armament has to be around that ballpark.

King is pretty fast, his speed would allow him to land attacks even through future sight, though Katakuri will still dodge most of them.
King has good AOE with his fire, and AOE counters Katakuri's fighting style with future sight (due to limit on how much he can tweak his body)

In this particular mtachup, King wins high-extreme diff due to his AOE.

Just like how you said King will win extreme difficulty, I say otherwise. That's called discussion which I enjoy with you.

Apologies, I wasn't picking on you. I just didn't want to name certain people. Your discussion with me is valid because you have your reasons and I discussed back with my points.

You never insulted my posts unlike others

Roger and WB were special cases, even amongst Yonko tiers.

Which we don't have a name for it yet. So, they are still Yonko level. Marco was able to stall 2 YCs at once for hours, that doesn't put him in a different category.

PK level is something that doesn't make sense, because even a weak person can become King of Pirates if they find OP.

 

[Windfall Island]

There is PK level? Didn't think Pirate King was a title given for strength.

I consider the top pirate level to be Yonko. It's just that there is variation in strength, just like YC1s

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 26, 2021 ---

She knows how to discuss smartass.
When somebody replies to a post without addressing any of the points she raised, that's who you should call out on

If you want King to be stronger than Katakuri, just say your piece and leave.

There is 100% a pk level. And we know this because of whitebeard.

Since old Wb is yonko lvl so ofcourse his younger prime version was atleast a tier above.

 

[Fallou]

My opinion on that K vs K is: Katakuri has FS and more speed. Kings defense lowers when he attacks. Kata can dodge him while he attacks and hit him at the same time. Thus, he wins…
I mean, Luffy needed FS to win against Kata, how do you even win against him without it? Unless you have a defense that NEVER wavers, like Kaido or BM?

 

[I Am Atomic]

There is 100% a pk level. And we know this because of whitebeard.

Since old Wb is yonko lvl so ofcourse his younger prime version was atleast a tier above.

If you believe it to be 100% true then alright, we have nothing to discuss

If anyone has watched other shows like Demon Slayer (Hashia/Upper Moons), Bleach (Captains/Espada's) or Naruto (Jounin/Akatsuki), we all know that there are characters with varying power levels, but that doesn't change the title. Yonko's are Yonko's. Admirals are Admiral's.

Akainu won against Aokiji, does that put Akainu at PK level too?

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 26, 2021 ---

My opinion on that K vs K is: Katakuri has FS and more speed. Kings defense lowers when he attacks. Kata can dodge him while he attacks and hit him at the same time. Thus, he wins…
I mean, Luffy needed FS to win against Kata, how do you even win against him without it? Unless you have a defense that NEVER wavers, like Kaido or BM?

Exactly. Luffy needed FS and Snakeman's unpredictable stretching and speed to counter Katakuri.
King hasn't shown anything that can counter Katakuri.

 

[Windfall Island]

If you believe it to be 100% true then alright, we have nothing to discuss

If anyone has watched other shows like Demon Slayer (Hashia/Upper Moons), Bleach (Captains/Espada's) or Naruto (Jounin/Akatsuki), we all know that there are characters with varying power levels, but that doesn't change the title. Yonko's are Yonko's. Admirals are Admiral's.

Akainu won against Aokiji, does that put Akainu at PK level too?

I apologise for coming across as strongly opinionated on that 100% part.

1) it is a fact that ppl in older days are much weaker versions of themselves. Even in one piece this rule stands because we have seen garp & rayleigh commenting on how they have gotten weaker due to age.

Therefore prime WB(pk lvl) is atleast a tier above old WB (yonko lvl).

2) akainu vs aokiji lasted for 10 days just like ace vs jinbei lasted for 5 days because the 2 warriors in both cases were near equals. Therefore they belong to the same lvl with one of them edging out the other.
To belong to next tier , you should be able to beat the opponent fairly easily & quickly if he is a tier below. Clearly akainu & ace couldnt do it. So they were not a tier above aokiji & jinbei.
Same is true for yc1s & yonkos . Since cae & jinbei could fight for 5 days , i am sure that a battle between king vs katakuri or kaido vs BM will last far longer. One of them could win extreme diff but that would just mean that if Kaido beat BM after days of fighting then kaido was not a tier above BM. They were near equals, they belong to the same level & Kaido just edged out BM , just like how ace just edged out jinbei & akainu just edged out aokiji . None of them easily & quickly defeated their opponents so they were not a tier avove.


3) just because those other mangas are shonen doesnt mean what goes in them applies to one piece. In fact there is no need to look beyond one piece if one wants to answer this pk vs yonko lvl thing. If on the other hand you want to forcefully come up with counter arguments & you had to look up to other stories then that counter argument is just in desperate need of support & evidence from the main series ( one piece in this case) to begin with.
Lets stick to one piece. I atleast will.

4) The 1st point i mentioned answers to the pk vs yonko thing pretty aptly. But you have now started to create unnecessary irrelevant counter arguments because you cant address the first point.

Also akainu is not yonko lvl anyways , he is just above admiral lvl by not too much either so anyways he isnt becoming pk lvl when he has gotta become yonko lvl first of all , but this is an entirely seperate topic of discussion which has been debated to death already & i am not interested in delving further into this.

 

[grey matter]

Which we don't have a name for it yet. So, they are still Yonko level. Marco was able to stall 2 YCs at once for hours, that doesn't put him in a different category.

PK level is something that doesn't make sense, because even a weak person can become King of Pirates if they find OP.

Actually, I consider Marco a cut above both King and Katakuri. Not too far ahead to be in completely different tier, but ahead enough to the point where we wouldn't call the gap 'close' either.
Though I suppose people are split here. Some here (including myself) consider him YC1+, other consider him YC1
IMO, Marco will high diff King or Katakuri in a pure 1v1.

Marco lasted hours against King + Queen, not just because of his broken durability. But also because he was also above them in other stats as well. He was fast enough to handle both at the same time, and had attack power high enough to make them reel.

To see where I'm coming from, lets swap positions.
King vs Marco + Jozu - how would the fight go?
The fight would end within like half an hour, because Marco alone would be overwhelming him in combat, adding Jozu would finish things off fast. Unless King decides to be permanently in his defense mode, in which case the fight can go on for like a day or two lol. But this would be a fight where King keeps getting smacked around the entire time, until his stamina (fire) runs out or something.


Anyway, on topic.

Apart from Roger and prime WB having special portrayal (each defining two eras, WB said to be free to take the throne whenever he pleased after Roger died, each having 2nd in commands who themselves are Yonko tier etc)


Old Whitebeard (in meds) had conqueror's in the same ballpark as Shanks, arguably the best haki user alive currently. He was also the strongest pirate, according to pretty much everyone in the Marineford arc.
If Old WB (not off meds for too long) was still the strongest pirate, then prime WB who is a cut above old WB, also has to be a cut above the other 3 OG Yonkos.

Roger overpowered and smacked away Oden. Oden was strong enough to give Kaido a high-extreme diff.

Now, I'm not saying they would obliterate the current Yonkos or anything. But that there is a significant gap.
They would mid-high diff, or high diff the other 3 Yonkos.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 26, 2021 ---

I mean, Luffy needed FS to win against Kata, how do you even win against him without it?

High attack speed (black mamba for eg) and AOE counters future sight + mochi body combat style.

 

[Fallou]

Actually, I consider Marco a cut above both King and Katakuri. Not too far ahead to be in completely different tier, but ahead enough to the point where we wouldn't call the gap 'close' either.
Though I suppose people are split here. Some here (including myself) consider him YC1+, other consider him YC1
IMO, Marco will high diff King or Katakuri in a pure 1v1.

Marco lasted hours against King + Queen, not just because of his broken durability. But also because he was also above them in other stats as well. He was fast enough to handle both at the same time, and had attack power high enough to make them reel.

To see where I'm coming from, lets swap positions.
King vs Marco + Jozu - how would the fight go?
The fight would end within like half an hour, because Marco alone would be overwhelming him in combat, adding Jozu would finish things off fast. Unless King decides to be permanently in his defense mode, in which case the fight can go on for like a day or two lol. But this would be a fight where King keeps getting smacked around the entire time, until his stamina (fire) runs out or something.


Anyway, on topic.

Apart from Roger and prime WB having special portrayal (each defining two eras, WB said to be free to take the throne whenever he pleased after Roger died, each having 2nd in commands who themselves are Yonko tier etc)


Old Whitebeard (in meds) had conqueror's in the same ballpark as Shanks, arguably the best haki user alive currently. He was also the strongest pirate, according to pretty much everyone in the Marineford arc.
If Old WB (not off meds for too long) was still the strongest pirate, then prime WB who is a cut above old WB, also has to be a cut above the other 3 OG Yonkos.

Roger overpowered and smacked away Oden. Oden was strong enough to give Kaido a high-extreme diff.

Now, I'm not saying they would obliterate the current Yonkos or anything. But that there is a significant gap.
They would mid-high diff, or high diff the other 3 Yonkos.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 26, 2021 ---

High attack speed (black mamba for eg) and AOE counters future sight + mochi body combat style.

I disagree: only FS + unpredictability + high speed can counter FS (Luffy vs Kata is proof enough)
King has only high speed, but moving with it makes him vulnerable. When vulnerable, any block Mochi attack works, and that’s an easy hit for Kata, who can both move at the same speed AND predict where Kings gonna be.
Kata wins, because King cannot hit him.

Of course, King is a high level fighter and could develop FS during the fight, in which case he gets a fighting chance

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Actually, I consider Marco a cut above both King and Katakuri. Not too far ahead to be in completely different tier, but ahead enough to the point where we wouldn't call the gap 'close' either.
Though I suppose people are split here. Some here (including myself) consider him YC1+, other consider him YC1
IMO, Marco will high diff King or Katakuri in a pure 1v1.

Marco lasted hours against King + Queen, not just because of his broken durability. But also because he was also above them in other stats as well. He was fast enough to handle both at the same time, and had attack power high enough to make them reel.

To see where I'm coming from, lets swap positions.
King vs Marco + Jozu - how would the fight go?
The fight would end within like half an hour, because Marco alone would be overwhelming him in combat, adding Jozu would finish things off fast. Unless King decides to be permanently in his defense mode, in which case the fight can go on for like a day or two lol. But this would be a fight where King keeps getting smacked around the entire time, until his stamina (fire) runs out or something.


Anyway, on topic.

Apart from Roger and prime WB having special portrayal (each defining two eras, WB said to be free to take the throne whenever he pleased after Roger died, each having 2nd in commands who themselves are Yonko tier etc)


Old Whitebeard (in meds) had conqueror's in the same ballpark as Shanks, arguably the best haki user alive currently. He was also the strongest pirate, according to pretty much everyone in the Marineford arc.
If Old WB (not off meds for too long) was still the strongest pirate, then prime WB who is a cut above old WB, also has to be a cut above the other 3 OG Yonkos.

Roger overpowered and smacked away Oden. Oden was strong enough to give Kaido a high-extreme diff.

Now, I'm not saying they would obliterate the current Yonkos or anything. But that there is a significant gap.
They would mid-high diff, or high diff the other 3 Yonkos.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 26, 2021 ---

High attack speed (black mamba for eg) and AOE counters future sight + mochi body combat style.

Roger used a named attack to send a much weaker oden flying , again oden was said to have gotten many time stronger after his journey with both the roger and WB pirates , that part flies over so often

oden was surprised but it was a named attack he blocked when he wasn't at his peak

 

[grey matter]

Roger used a named attack to send a much weaker oden flying , again oden was said to have gotten many time stronger after his journey with both the roger and WB pirates , that part flies over so often

Oden was with Roger only for less than an year. Plus he was 34 years or something when he got in Roger's ship, ie close to peak

Anyway, where was this stated that Oden grew many times stronger after boarding Roger's ship?

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 26, 2021 ---

I disagree: only FS + unpredictability + high speed can counter FS (Luffy vs Kata is proof enough)
King has only high speed, but moving with it makes him vulnerable. When vulnerable, any block Mochi attack works, and that’s an easy hit for Kata, who can both move at the same speed AND predict where Kings gonna be.
Kata wins, because King cannot hit him.

Of course, King is a high level fighter and could develop FS during the fight, in which case he gets a fighting chance

Speed alone can also counter future sight. You can know an attack is coming, but you still have to be fast enough to keep up.
To demonstrate this, assume a hypothetical where a character is so fast that he attacks 1000 times in a second, Katakuri can predict but not keep up. It's an extreme example, but demonstrates the point.
Luffy needed future sight in his fight, because his combat stats were otherwise below or around the same ballpark as Katakuri himself.
In this specific case of King, I think Katakuri can dodge most attacks, but King will still land some attacks due to his speed

AOE counters this combat style as well . Because there is a limit to how much Katakuri can tweak his mochi body

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Oden was with Roger only for less than an year. Plus he was 34 years or something when he got in Roger's ship, ie close to peak

Anyway, where was this stated that Oden grew many times stronger after boarding Roger's ship?

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 26, 2021 ---

Speed alone can also counter future sight. You can know an attack is coming, but you still have to be fast enough to keep up.
In this specific case of King, I think Katakuri can dodge most attacks, but King will still land some attacks due to his speed

AOE counters this combat style as well . Because there is a limit to how much Katakuri can tweak his mochi body

right there, oden was capped because he was already the strongest in wano, no one to push him further hence why he wanted to explore the world , guys like WB , scopper, roger , rayleigh, shiki , big mum etc

 

[slavkovski]

My opinion on that K vs K is: Katakuri has FS and more speed. Kings defense lowers when he attacks. Kata can dodge him while he attacks and hit him at the same time. Thus, he wins…
I mean, Luffy needed FS to win against Kata, how do you even win against him without it? Unless you have a defense that NEVER wavers, like Kaido or BM?

Well.. King doesnt have to lower his defense if he fight Katakuri right? Katakuri doesnt have advance CoC, and the only thing that could hurt King in his fight against Zoro are advance CoC.. So.. It's a draw then?

 

[I Am Atomic]

I apologise for coming across as strongly opinionated on that 100% part.

1) it is a fact that ppl in older days are much weaker versions of themselves. Even in one piece this rule stands because we have seen garp & rayleigh commenting on how they have gotten weaker due to age.

Therefore prime WB(pk lvl) is atleast a tier above old WB (yonko lvl).

2) akainu vs aokiji lasted for 10 days just like ace vs jinbei lasted for 5 days because the 2 warriors in both cases were near equals. Therefore they belong to the same lvl with one of them edging out the other.
To belong to next tier , you should be able to beat the opponent fairly easily & quickly if he is a tier below. Clearly akainu & ace couldnt do it. So they were not a tier above aokiji & jinbei.
Same is true for yc1s & yonkos . Since cae & jinbei could fight for 5 days , i am sure that a battle between king vs katakuri or kaido vs BM will last far longer. One of them could win extreme diff but that would just mean that if Kaido beat BM after days of fighting then kaido was not a tier above BM. They were near equals, they belong to the same level & Kaido just edged out BM , just like how ace just edged out jinbei & akainu just edged out aokiji . None of them easily & quickly defeated their opponents so they were not a tier avove.


3) just because those other mangas are shonen doesnt mean what goes in them applies to one piece. In fact there is no need to look beyond one piece if one wants to answer this pk vs yonko lvl thing. If on the other hand you want to forcefully come up with counter arguments & you had to look up to other stories then that counter argument is just in desperate need of support & evidence from the main series ( one piece in this case) to begin with.
Lets stick to one piece. I atleast will.

4) The 1st point i mentioned answers to the pk vs yonko thing pretty aptly. But you have now started to create unnecessary irrelevant counter arguments because you cant address the first point.

Also akainu is not yonko lvl anyways , he is just above admiral lvl by not too much either so anyways he isnt becoming pk lvl when he has gotta become yonko lvl first of all , but this is an entirely seperate topic of discussion which has been debated to death already & i am not interested in delving further into this.

We have never seen WB or Roger fight against "normal" Yonko's before. So, I am not really sure where this higher tier came about.

Not denying WB or Roger wouldn't win, but we have no idea what the difficulty would be.

No need to apologise. Just a good discussion

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 26, 2021 ---

Well.. King doesnt have to lower his defense if he fight Katakuri right? Katakuri doesnt have advance CoC, and the only thing that could hurt King in his fight against Zoro are advance CoC.. So.. It's a draw then?

Katakuri can drown King in his Mochi

 

[grey matter]

right there, oden was capped because he was already the strongest in wano, no one to push him further hence why he wanted to explore the world , guys like WB , scopper, roger , rayleigh, shiki , big mum etc

Ok. He had around 5 years in WB's ship, and around 1 year in Roger's ship. Most of Roger's growth had already happened by the time he faced Roger. Plus, like I said, he was around 34 by the time he faced Roger. He was pretty close to his peak.

 

[Fallou]

Well.. King doesnt have to lower his defense if he fight Katakuri right? Katakuri doesnt have advance CoC, and the only thing that could hurt King in his fight against Zoro are advance CoC.. So.. It's a draw then?

He does, because his defense automatically lowers when he attacks, no? So if he attacks, defense lowers. However, I’m counting on Kata figuring out Kings weakness, which he might not… Then, King would win

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 26, 2021 ---

Oden was with Roger only for less than an year. Plus he was 34 years or something when he got in Roger's ship, ie close to peak

Anyway, where was this stated that Oden grew many times stronger after boarding Roger's ship?

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 26, 2021 ---

Speed alone can also counter future sight. You can know an attack is coming, but you still have to be fast enough to keep up.
To demonstrate this, assume a hypothetical where a character is so fast that he attacks 1000 times in a second, Katakuri can predict but not keep up. It's an extreme example, but demonstrates the point.
Luffy needed future sight in his fight, because his combat stats were otherwise below or around the same ballpark as Katakuri himself.
In this specific case of King, I think Katakuri can dodge most attacks, but King will still land some attacks due to his speed

AOE counters this combat style as well . Because there is a limit to how much Katakuri can tweak his mochi body

I haven’t seen anything in Kings speed that indicates it’s high enough to counter FS. Hell, Zoro isn’t that quick, and he could more or less dodge it! So why would Kata be unable to?

Edit: note that all of the above is just my take on it, and I’m only discussing it because it’s fun

 

[slavkovski]

He does, because his defense automatically lowers when he attacks, no? So if he attacks, defense lowers. However, I’m counting on Kata figuring out Kings weakness, which he might not… Then, King would win

I mean he can attack, but not with his high speed attack, and assuming his regular attack wont catch Katakuri BUT he doesnt want to lower his defense he can just keep his fire and just let Katakuri attack him and wait for an opportunity to attack Katakuri up close.. since you know.. Katakuri cant hurt him because he doesnt have aCOC.. thats why i said it will be a draw.. because i think katakuri is a smart guy he wont rushing to attack him and it can be a stalemate in the end..

I haven’t seen anything in Kings speed that indicates it’s high enough to counter FS. Hell, Zoro isn’t that quick, and he could more or less dodge it! So why would Kata be unable to?

Edit: note that all of the above is just my take on it, and I’m only discussing it because it’s fun

I still believe in their level.. FS or CoO in general are basically useless..

 

[AmitDS]

Well.. King doesnt have to lower his defense if he fight Katakuri right? Katakuri doesnt have advance CoC, and the only thing that could hurt King in his fight against Zoro are advance CoC.. So.. It's a draw then?

Zoro needed AdCoC to damage defense mode King, it isn't a universal requirement.

Marco made defense mode King bleed with a knee strike. It is ambiguous if he used CoA in the strike but as we all know, Marco doesn't have CoC so...

I thought this fake AdCoC requirement to damage King was dispelled already.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Following up on AmitDS' point.

You only need haki to hit Logia users. If you can hit someone hard enough, you don't even need haki. Haki is not a requirement to hurt someone who isn't a Logia.

If Law drops something on Kaido that generates enough force to hurt Kaido and kill him, then there is no need for haki. For example, Luffy broke through Boa sisters haki. There is no such thing as absolute defence (cough cough Bartolomeo...shit).

 

[slavkovski]

Zoro needed AdCoC to damage defense mode King, it isn't a universal requirement.

Marco made defense mode King bleed with a knee strike. It is ambiguous if he used CoA in the strike but as we all know, Marco doesn't have CoC so...

I thought this fake AdCoC requirement to damage King was dispelled already.

I just re-read the Marco - King & Queen clash.. i dont see Marco made King bleed, Yes Marco definitely made Queen bleed but not King...