Discussion Did Haki kill the creativity?

[Vanshrimp]

i would say no, Haki did not kill creativity. Haki and creativity must be combined to go on a 1vs1 against a yonkou.

 

[XXGenesis]

No because Logia users were looking like top class combatants. Without much counter to their abilities. Haki helped balance out the playing field, vs DF users & non users. Yes it did kinda take away from the reliance of strategy and match ups.

Oda not revealing the full in depth detailed functions and applications of Haki makes it seem at times it can be a plot device, especially with the advanced skills

All in all I ain’t mad at it

 

[thedude]

I don't think it's genetics... probably anyone can get it, but people closer to Luffy will have it because it's convenient to the story.

I think CoC is linked to personality, the natural leaders are CoC users. At principle people are born that way. I wonder if a traumatic experience that gives someone a 180 turn on personality could change their Haki leaning.

Yeah, that's how i view it. Not genetic, but someone who is a dreamer, a "i want to be pirate King" or "I want to be the greatest swordsman" is likely to have it over someone who is just going about their day to day.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

I don't think it's genetics... probably anyone can get it, but people closer to Luffy will have it because it's convenient to the story.

I think CoC is linked to personality, the natural leaders are CoC users. At principle people are born that way. I wonder if a traumatic experience that gives someone a 180 turn on personality could change their Haki leaning.

We are not born with an achieved personality: personality is influenced by experience and lifestyle and ideology - and the Tenryubito are probably the best examples in One Piece.

Being born with it means it is influenced by lineage factors.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I think CoC is linked to personality

Impossible, personality can change, genetics can't.

You're not born with personality, you're influenced by your surroundings and life experiences, so it's impossible that King's Haki is based on personality because as Rayleigh, said, you either have it, or you don't.

You can be shy and learn to be confident. You can be confident and lose confidence and become shy due to life experiences.

You can't influence genetics, it's either you have it or you don't, thus why Ivankov said Luffy having King's Haki is no surprise, he said "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" which is a figure of speech that means genetic relativity.
If my dad is tall, and I'm tall... people will say, well the apple doesn't fall far from the tree because I inherited his height. If he's smart, and I'm smart or have similar qualities to my dad, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

If personality is what determined King's Haki, then anyone can develop it simply by having the qualities that makes one possess it meaning Rayleigh lied to us readers.
And in fact, Luffy's personality was stated to not be consistent with King's Haki users, he's not arrogant or prideful.

 

[FetherMan]

Just a creative way of making the fights in One Piece stand out from other shounen manga stories that use similar formulas in their story lines. You have "quirks", "shikai / bankai", "jutsus", etc.

I actually like the "Devil Fruits" idea more than Haki.

 

[M3J]

I don't think it's genetics... probably anyone can get it, but people closer to Luffy will have it because it's convenient to the story.

I think CoC is linked to personality, the natural leaders are CoC users. At principle people are born that way. I wonder if a traumatic experience that gives someone a 180 turn on personality could change their Haki leaning.

It's a mix, I think, but I don't think haki can really change? We've seen haki users be extremely confident in themselves, from Whitebeard to Luffy, and they often are good leaders and unafraid to die. There's probably some lineage mixed in as well, but I guess we'll find out if Garp and Dragon have CoC.

I liked the earlier version of haki, where it could help you predict/see moves and sense aura and help you fight a fruit user. Oda went in too deep imo

 

[Core D. Roy]

We are not born with an achieved personality: personality is influenced by experience and lifestyle and ideology - and the Tenryubito are probably the best examples in One Piece.

Being born with it means it is influenced by lineage factors.

I think Oda explicitly saying through Rayleigh that Conqueror's is something you're either born with or you don't have was a massive mistake. Like yeah I get the need to have a system like haki in the story, even if I can nitpick it to death. But CoC being something you either got in your genes or not is dumb af.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

But CoC being something you either got in your genes or not is dumb af.

How is it dumb when Ivankov pretty much said the reason Luffy has it is because the apple doesn't fall far from the tree? And Doberman pretty much said he has it because he's the son of Dragon?

Apple doesn't fall far from the tree? Being the genetic offspring? Yet genetics is dumb? Not sure you're looking at this remotely objectively. Factually, it's the only thing that makes sense so far.

Genes are the one thing that is either you have or don't. Can't be tall if you don't have the genes for it, not much you can do about that, so why Haki can't fall into that category is actually quite the contrary when all the evidence so far is leaning towards that.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 14, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 14, 2022 ---

I do wonder why we argue about things there is evidence for from references to genes (e.g. blood, apple doesn't fall far from the tree, etc) and outright saying "born with it".

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I think he means dumb in that it makes people destined to be strong as a birth right vs anyone being able to achieve top level strength through hard work alone. I don't think he's arguing that CoC isn't something you're born with.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I think he means dumb in that it makes people destined to be strong as a birth right vs anyone being able to achieve top level strength through hard work alone. I don't think he's arguing that CoC isn't something you're born with.

Still, to say it's dumb in a Shonen though? That's like the typical thing.
And it's actually realistic, genetics do determine a lot in regards to real life success too.

Being athletic is genetic, yes, you can train, but there's a point where no matter how you train, you will never beat the person with the blood and natural talent for whatever sport.

If you don't have genes to build muscle, you can train as much as you like with all the right nutrition, training splits, and perfect technique... you'll almost still never beat the guy who can half ass his training, eat shit, and still make 2-3x the progress you make with hard work, drugs and dedication.

If you're born with Photographic memory to remember every and anything, you'll be far superior to someone who doesn't have that ability in things that require memorising such as Chess.
Success is almost a birth right. Unfair, but it is true.

I don't see how it's dumb, I can see how it's boring? or too repetitive a trope? but dumb? I don't see how.

 

[kkck]

Narrative wise I think haki is a bit of a sidegrade. Oda introduced logia fruits fairly early in the series and at the time they seemed absurdly invincible. The story desperately needed something to equalize combat in the story. Since then the story does suffer of how centralizing haki is to combat. For the most part someone without haki fighting even at the low tiers in the new world is not exactly believable. The story has shown it of course but it reads like plain BS.

 

[Zmsp]

Genes are the one thing that is either you have or don't. Can't be tall if you don't have the genes for it, not much you can do about that, so why Haki can't fall into that category is actually quite the contrary when all the evidence so far is leaning towards that.

While I don't disagree with you, because it's been mentioned that CoC has a hereditary pattern, being related to genes and being hereditary is not the exact same thing.

Having a hereditary pattern is unquestionable, no arguments there, but that doesn't exclude that someone could be born with it and not have any genetic pre-disposition for it. Big Mom is a valid argument in this regard. She was born from seemingly regular parents, and has both CoC and she's a borderline giant. We have no background to confirm other ancestors have CoC or giant's blood.

Edit: I'm not saying someone can train CoC until he expresses it, if he doesn't have it in his genes, I'm saying someone who seemingly doesn't have it might end up having it and expressing it, despite no background of it, so we never really know who has it up until they do.



On the topic, I don't really like it, but mostly because I liked it more when figuring out the quirks of each DF made the fights more interesting. It's needed for the OP fruits, unquestionably, but I would've liked it if some more visual clarity was provided earlier in the manga. It felt like Oda just decided to wing it during wano arc.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Still, to say it's dumb in a Shonen though? That's like the typical thing.
And it's actually realistic, genetics do determine a lot in regards to real life success too.

Being athletic is genetic, yes, you can train, but there's a point where no matter how you train, you will never beat the person with the blood and natural talent for whatever sport.

If you don't have genes to build muscle, you can train as much as you like with all the right nutrition, training splits, and perfect technique... you'll almost still never beat the guy who can half ass his training, eat shit, and still make 2-3x the progress you make with hard work, drugs and dedication.

If you're born with Photographic memory to remember every and anything, you'll be far superior to someone who doesn't have that ability in things that require memorising such as Chess.
Success is almost a birth right. Unfair, but it is true.

I don't see how it's dumb, I can see how it's boring? or too repetitive a trope? but dumb? I don't see how.

Well I'll leave it to @zetsu banned to defend his point of view, assuming that I even read it right. I got no skin in this game.

 

[McNuss]

Yeah, and Ace has the blood of the devil because he is Roger's child...you see, the people in the One Piece world are hardly reliable narrators when it comes to genetics.

In fact, the only group of people where it semed to have passed down as a guarantee are the Monkey and Gol D. families.

In the Boa and Charlotte families, only one out of three/eighty-five children inherited the trait. And that's assuming one of their parents had it, which is rather questionable in Big Mom's case.

Yes, to a degree personality is genetic, too, and yes, you are guaranteed to inherit roughly 50% of genes from each of your parents. But none of the statements in the series suggest that there is a "conqueror gene".

And if there is no single gene to be intendified, the incidence within the Gol and Monkey families could still be random occurence bolstered by beliefs about power in blood. We don't have most mothers in these families, and we aren't observing many generations either.

If a scientist like Vegapunk, Judge, Caesar or Queen says something about CoC being related to LF, then it's a wholy different story.

 

[Core D. Roy]

How is it dumb when Ivankov pretty much said the reason Luffy has it is because the apple doesn't fall far from the tree? And Doberman pretty much said he has it because he's the son of Dragon?

Apple doesn't fall far from the tree? Being the genetic offspring? Yet genetics is dumb? Not sure you're looking at this remotely objectively. Factually, it's the only thing that makes sense so far.

Genes are the one thing that is either you have or don't. Can't be tall if you don't have the genes for it, not much you can do about that, so why Haki can't fall into that category is actually quite the contrary when all the evidence so far is leaning towards that.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 14, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 14, 2022 ---

I do wonder why we argue about things there is evidence for from references to genes (e.g. blood, apple doesn't fall far from the tree, etc) and outright saying "born with it".

Are you seriously drawing from what I said that genetics are dumb? That some people being born tall is dumb? For real dude? Let me very clearly spell it out for you:

Naruto being some kid that was saddled with a demon was fun. The Uzumaki being this secretly-genetically-endowed clan of cousins to the Senju, and that's the reason Naruto becomes a god-like fighter is NOT fun.

Ichigo being some kid whose family can kinda see ghosts and whatnot was fun. Ichigo being the son of a captain and a quincy mom whose lineage is the entire reason he can do what he does is NOT fun.

Luffy being some kid who gobbled on a devil fruit by accident was fun. Luffy gaining the ONE ability that lets him have the capacity to compete with the top-tiers in the world, that is solely based on your genetic predisposition (CoC), is NOT fun.

"Look, a character said a thing! Therefore it can't be a bad idea as a piece of narrative fiction!"

Fucking come on, man. I expect way better out of you.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 14, 2022 ---

Yeah, and Ace has the blood of the devil because he is Roger's child...you see, the people in the One Piece world are hardly reliable narrators when it comes to genetics.

In fact, the only group of people where it semed to have passed down as a guarantee are the Monkey and Gol D. families.

In the Boa and Charlotte families, only one out of three/eighty-five children inherited the trait. And that's assuming one of their parents had it, which is rather questionable in Big Mom's case.

Yes, to a degree personality is genetic, too, and yes, you are guaranteed to inherit roughly 50% of genes from each of your parents. But none of the statements in the series suggest that there is a "conqueror gene".

And if there is no single gene to be intendified, the incidence within the Gol and Monkey families could still be random occurence bolstered by beliefs about power in blood. We don't have most mothers in these families, and we aren't observing many generations either.

If a scientist like Vegapunk, Judge, Caesar or Queen says something about CoC being related to LF, then it's a wholy different story.

This is basically what I have hope in. It seemed pretty clear that Oda fully intended for CoC to be genetic, it's basically the only thing we have to go on with direct dialogue. Didn't Rayleigh himself mention it at some point?

Either way I hope it's retconned that CoC isn't something you're just born with. Maybe lineage can make it easier or whatever to access or develop, but having it be a binary trait is just bananas stupid in a magic system like haki. The whole point of haki is that everyone has it, everyone can train it if they have the motivation. CoC as we know it right now, kinda spits in the face of that idea.

On the bright side, Zoro's development kinda makes me feel like that's the direction Oda's going with it. Zoro probably wasn't born with the same predisposition to CoC that Luffy was with his (ugh) blessed genetics, but in certain circumstances, *it happens*. Then again, this brings up the topic of Zoro's lineage which I don't want to touch with a ten-and-a-half-foot pole. Kinda still hope Zoro is literally just some feral kid that has no relation to Ushimaru/Shimotsuki/Ryuuma/etc.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Naruto being some kid that was saddled with a demon was fun. The Uzumaki being this secretly-genetically-endowed clan of cousins to the Senju, and that's the reason Naruto becomes a god-like fighter is NOT fun.

Not fun doesn't make something dumb.

Fucking come on, man. I expect way better out of you.

What, not sharing your sentiments? We're all supposed to have the same opinions? Can't dictate that.

Nonetheless, all you're really saying is you dislike it, and disliking something doesn't make something dumb.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 14, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 14, 2022 ---

"Look, a character said a thing! Therefore it can't be a bad idea as a piece of narrative fiction!"

You're overreacting, no one said that. Simply said opinion doesn't make something dumb.
Neither did I say it was good, I said it was realistic, but it certainly isn't dumb.
Preference doesn't determine what's dumb.

Something being dumb is determined by goal and execution. There's nothing dumb about Haki being genetic, all it really is that you're not articulating well is you dislike the idea, that's fine, but it's not dumb.

Having a preference has never been classed as dumb, that is a statement or idea that makes no sense. That's a dictatorial philosophy to have. I only like the colour red, therefore, if you don't like red, your preference of colours = dumb makes no sense. It's pretty much what you're doing.

 

[McNuss]

Are you seriously drawing from what I said that genetics are dumb? That some people being born tall is dumb? For real dude? Let me very clearly spell it out for you:

Naruto being some kid that was saddled with a demon was fun. The Uzumaki being this secretly-genetically-endowed clan of cousins to the Senju, and that's the reason Naruto becomes a god-like fighter is NOT fun.

Ichigo being some kid whose family can kinda see ghosts and whatnot was fun. Ichigo being the son of a captain and a quincy mom whose lineage is the entire reason he can do what he does is NOT fun.

Luffy being some kid who gobbled on a devil fruit by accident was fun. Luffy gaining the ONE ability that lets him have the capacity to compete with the top-tiers in the world, that is solely based on your genetic predisposition (CoC), is NOT fun.

"Look, a character said a thing! Therefore it can't be a bad idea as a piece of narrative fiction!"

Fucking come on, man.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 14, 2022 ---

This is basically what I have hope in. It seemed pretty clear that Oda fully intended for CoC to be genetic, it's basically the only thing we have to go on with direct dialogue. Didn't Rayleigh himself mention it at some point?

Either way I hope it's retconned that CoC isn't something you're just born with. Maybe lineage can make it easier or whatever to access or develop, but having it be a binary trait is just bananas stupid in a magic system like haki. The whole point of haki is that everyone has it, everyone can train it if they have the motivation. CoC as we know it right now, kinda spits in the face of that idea.

Either way I hope it's retconned that CoC isn't something you're just born with. Maybe lineage can make it easier or whatever to access or develop, but having it be a binary trait is just bananas stupid in a magic system like haki. The whole point of haki is that everyone has it, everyone can train it if they have the motivation. CoC as we know it right now, kinda spits in the face of that idea.

We already have a very strong nature vs nurture theme behind Doflamingo and the answer is just as unsolvable as the reality. Was he born evil? Or was it his upbringing and the events that followed? Oda is aware of this, he's an eductated person that wrote something that is essentially a bible.

But not a religious story either. The fact that people's entire imagination about what this story is really about relies on a prediction made like over 15 years ago, that Luffy is the chosen one who is going to murder the evil people with ancient weapons, is often completly baffling me. One Piece is not like Naruto, which I seriously consider to be actually pretty bad in terms of what values it teaches. Oda is someone who desires world peace and who makes radical muslims cheer for radical gays. Telling a random chosen one good vs evil story would never warrant the dedication Oda has spent on this story that must really be about something he absolutely wants to tell. It's something great, that's without question!

People have to think outside of the box a lot more. The crave on treating One Piece like a novel has to stop. It's a comic, it's art. If you only look at the text you leave out a myriad of dimensions.

Don't worry it's definitely not going to be like Naruto or Bleach.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

The whole point of haki is that everyone has it, everyone can train it if they have the motivation.

That's actually not true, you've actually misunderstood what Haki was.
It's always been something only special people have or could use rather.
Crocodile, Moriah, Lucci... many people didn't and don't possess it or are able to unlock it rather, only those with talent.

One Piece has always been a world where talent excelled, yes, luck has its place, but talent has always been at the core.
Zoro is related to Ryuma; Ace was the son of Roger; Luffy's the son of Dragon; these people are exceptional, it's not just hardwork, it's talent which is determined by genes.

People train for years and can't use Haki, you think Crocodile and Moriah lack motivation? Committing to a plan for half of your life? Failing, and then still coming up with another plan? That's not motivation? If Crocodile failing and then trying to still be Pirate King is not motivation, I don't know what is.

Haki has never been about motivation.

 

[Zmsp]

That's actually not true, you've actually misunderstood what Haki was.
It's always been something only special people have or could use rather.

Amazon Lily/ Kuja Empire? I'm pretty sure it was mentioned nearly all inhabitants could use haki to some degree, so it's something reproducible by standardized training. Those characters you mentioned might've not been talented enough to discover it on their own, but Amazon Lily pretty much confirms it's something nearly anyone can acquire if given proper training.


CoC has been stated to be something that cannot be attained by training alone, but even that can be taught to some degree, if you have it in you, like Rayleigh and Luffy.
Other forms are clearly accessible to nearly anyone given proper guidance, or being talented enough to figure it out on your own, unlike Conquerors.

Even Conquerors has been shown to have a hereditary component, but there's no confirmation at all that it's exclusively hereditary.