One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

G4 Luffy in raid who split sky >>> post WCI G4 Luffy

LOL. No his G4 stats remained the same. Only thing he improved was Armament Haki and then CoC cladding. Haki does not grant speed and never will. Your headcannon assumes all stats were boosted. If this were the case then there'd be improvements in his usual G4 time limit as well or no limit whatsoever.
All Luffy added was better control of advanced armament Haki. Nothing else...
Additionally, it was explained he and Kid got stronger during their time in prison by improving stamina and resilience while weakened.

Snakeman remains his fastest form. Luffy keeps up with Kaido in his base form thanks to future sight. It's still same base G4 Luffy of WCI only difference now is CoC Haki and greater mastery of CoA where he's splitting the skies in a clash with Kaido. His hits packs ridiculous power now but his speed never changed. Moreover Kaido isn't in blitz mode all the time so I don't get why you think he's always super fast.
First chapter of the rooftop battle shows Kaido trying to hit Luffy from point-blank range in a normal attack with Luffy unaware. I doubt he needed future sight to dodge that.

 

[Rein Avara]

Assign disrupts the future sight + body tweak combo of Katakuri, which is what makes it hard to land hits on him to begin with.

What do we even have to go off of that assign disrupts future sight, are we just giving Kid random feats/power ups? Big Mom hardly used COO to even have that be a valid statement.

I'm not sure what we're using the gauge that Kid is far above Katakuri (it's almost like we're saying that the antagonists never get stronger after an extreme diff). People are forgetting that Law hard carried that Big Mom fight, a lot of the damage Kid ultimately able to do was a result of Laws internal damage attacks, Kid's attacks didn't seem like they were doing much (IMO) until the Rail Gun and even then she was laughing, whereas for Law, Big Mom even took the time to show concern over the effectiveness of his attacks.

Katakuri has insane stamina, the man was using awakening, advanced COO and some form of advanced CoA for 12 hours (Block Mochi). Kat has shown a speed feat in the story that has only been matched by Kaido (Dogding the Snakeman punches). He can replicate everything Luffy can do (in terms of his base DF) and then some, so the question of his strength should be thrown out the window. Kat is extremely proficient in CoA and he has high base strength, are we really arguing that Kid who uses nothing but brute strength can out damage him, when did Haki become so irrelevant?

I can agree with Kid's durability being better as of now, but in terms of attack power his highest damaging attack is a Rail which he requires prep time for and it has not been shown that he can use assign and construct a rail gun at the same time.

I'll say this to finish off, in my opinion you replace Kat with Kid in that Big Mom fight and I think It'd have ended a lot sooner in favor of Law and Kat.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2022 ---

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Future sight might have allowed him to dodge a couple of them, end result wouldn't have changed at all, cause future sight could do only so much

Future sight will always allow him to dodge. It's that broken. Proficiency is key! Observation Haki is probably the least taxing Haki since Katakuri was using it for virtually 10-11 hours without break.
Luffy still isn't as proficient as Katakuri is at using FS.
Yes the end result will likely be the same but it'll take too long a time to achieve it. It's also not a surprise that the 2 people aside Luffy who are confirmed users of FS are widely regarded as unbeatable. Have you thought of this?

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2022 ---

What do we even have to go off of that assign disrupts future sight, are we just giving Kid random feats/power ups? Big Mom hardly used COO to even have that be a valid statement.

I'm not sure what we're using the gauge that Kid is far above Katakuri (it's almost like we're saying that the antagonists never get stronger after an extreme diff). People are forgetting that Law hard carried that Big Mom fight, a lot of the damage Kid ultimately able to do was a result of Laws internal damage attacks, Kid's attacks didn't seem like they were doing much (IMO) until the Rail Gun and even then she was laughing, whereas for Law, Big Mom even took the time to show concern over the effectiveness of his attacks.

Katakuri has insane stamina, the man was using awakening, advanced COO and some form of advanced CoA for 12 hours (Block Mochi). Kat has shown a speed feat in the story that has only been matched by Kaido (Dogding the Snakeman punches). He can replicate everything Luffy can do (in terms of his base DF) and then some, so the question of his strength should be thrown out the window. Kat is extremely proficient in CoA and he has high base strength, are we really arguing that Kid who uses nothing but brute strength can out damage him, when did Haki become so irrelevant?

I can agree with Kid's durability being better as of now, but in terms of attack power his highest damaging attack is a Rail which he requires prep time for and it has not been shown that he can use assign and construct a rail gun at the same time.

I'll say this to finish off, in my opinion you replace Kat with Kid in that Big Mom fight and I think It'd have ended a lot sooner in favor of Law and Kat.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2022 ---

Totally agree with this. Moreover needing preparation to launch a devastating move is something we see Katakuri doesn't allow his opponents unless he ends up liking them mid-battle lol.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2022 ---

How do we know luffy wasn't using foresight? And even then, foresight wouldn't make him more or less one shottable at that point.

It was stated in the Manga that observation Haki in general cannot be harnessed when emotionally disturbed (not calm). Luffy was absolutely lacking any sort of observation Haki when he raged on Kaido.

 

[john ellis]

Could kata and king take down BM, because this is what people are purposing if they think kidd is beaten by kata

 

[Rein Avara]

Could kata and king take down BM, because this is what people are purposing if they think kidd is beaten by kata

Law was the major catalyst for that victory, King and Kat don't have law's broken devil fruit, so I can't really say if they'd get as far Kid and Law.
The issue with King is that Oda conveniently had him turn off the flames on his back the second Zoro activated advanced CoC, so we didn't really see the full extent of his abilities (IMO).

 

[kkck]

I would say... probably not? The battles against kaido and big mom were pretty long and both characters took a lot of damage from multiple sources. During law's and kid's battle I would argue that it was law that carried a large chunk of the battle against her big mom. His devil fruit had the capacity to cause meaningful damage through her absurd defenses consistently. Luffy needed armor haki internal damage for yonko to feel his punches at all and presumably only by stacking cladding on top of that his punches became meaningful. Kidd seemed more lackluster in general, though he took big mom's attacks surprisingly well, but big mom definitely felt kidd's attacks when his awakening was in play.

Now we get to katakuri and king... Can they overcome a yonko's defenses to begin with? Katakuri's raw power was inferior to gear 4 luffy's. I think there is a case to be made that katakuri at the time had stronger armor haki than luffy but even then he just didn't have luffy's raw power output. And we know that gear 4 luffy at the time of WCI was pretty ineffective against yonko. Luffy was able to fight evenly with katakuri once he got the hang of observation haki. In turn a much stronger luffy struggled dodging kaido's attacks during the initial stages of the fight even while using foresight...

King has a more interesting skillset than katakuri at a potentially yonko level fight but IMO he also falls short of actually injuring a yonko. King's range of abilities is insane. His lunarian physiology combined with his dinosaur fruit is actually an insane combination. In defense mode he can tank attacks that a yonko would be pretty damn wise to dodge or otherwise risk massive damage. In attack mode king's speed is insane along with getting flames that have been compared to magma (which in OP is more dangerous than normal fire). King's flames can potentially do something to a yonko (if we go by the novels even ace could slightly burn WB). But in the end neither displayed attacks that would go deep enough to overcome a yonko. King would probably just last longer due to his defense mode which can laugh off yonko level attacks.

 

[BlackTiger]

Katakuri's speed>>>Kaido' speed

Kaido vs Snakeman

Katakuri vs Snakeman

Katakuri's Mochi Thrust>>>Kaido's conqueror coating

Luffy after taking Mochi Thrust (the attack didn't hit Luffy directly)

Luffy after taking conqueror coating attack from Kaido (Luffy took the attack head on)

Katakuri has top tier attack and speed. Two Katakuri are enough to beat Big Mom. They don't need bombs to do it

 

[kkck]

Katakuri's speed>>>Kaido' speed

Kaido vs Snakeman

Katakuri vs Snakeman

Katakuri's Mochi Thrust>>>Kaido's conqueror coating

Luffy after taking Mochi Thrust (the attack didn't hit Luffy directly)

Luffy after taking conqueror coating attack from Kaido (Luffy took the attack head on)

Katakuri has top tier attack and speed. Two Katakuri are enough to beat Big Mom. They don't need bombs to do it

The idea that katakuri has more speed than kaido is laughable at best. Onigashima raid luffy is immensely stronger than end of arc WCI luffy. During the wano stage of the arc luffy was speed blitz and one shot by kaido. And luffy's gear 3 and 4 punches barely phased kaido. In turn when the raid started luffy was able to barely dodge kaido's attacks in his base form. And internal damage haki gave him enough firepower for kaido to feel his punches. All of your points require luffy at the end of the WCI arc to be comparable to luffy at the start of the onigashima raid arc. Which is absurd. Let alone the power boost that luffy got from learning conqueror haki cladding...

 

[BlackTiger]

The idea that katakuri has more speed than kaido is laughable at best. Onigashima raid luffy is immensely stronger than end of arc WCI luffy. During the wano stage of the arc luffy was speed blitz and one shot by kaido. And luffy's gear 3 and 4 punches barely phased kaido. In turn when the raid started luffy was able to barely dodge kaido's attacks in his base form. And internal damage haki gave him enough firepower for kaido to feel his punches. All of your points require luffy at the end of the WCI arc to be comparable to luffy at the start of the onigashima raid arc. Which is absurd. Let alone the power boost that luffy got from learning conqueror haki cladding...

Kaido cannot counter Snakeman without using Future Sight and speed boost by copying Snakeman mode.

Conqueror coating only boost attack power. It has nothing to do with speed and durability.

Act 1 Luffy vs Kaido
Luffy didn't use Future Sight in act 1 against Kaido
Kaido used his fastest attack: Thunder Bagua
--> So it makes sense why Luffy got blitzed

Rooftop Luffy vs Kaido
Luffy used Future Sight this time
And again Thunder Bagua is Kaido's fastest attack. Luffy had no problem dodging Kaido's nameless club swing

If Luffy can keep up with Kaido's speed, it was because Kaido rarely used his fastest attack: Thunder Bagua.

Literally Luffy didn't have speed or durability boost. The biggest boost Luffy had was attack power due to conqueror coating. Mochi Thrust is much more lethal than most of Kaido's conqueror coating attacks. Katakuri can damage Kaido or Big Mom.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

But why wouldn't she clashing with Kaido count? When Sanji is fighting an opponent head-on, his speed counts.

Big Mom uses Zeus / Hera to move 95% of the time, so she doesn't display her speed often. But when she does, it doesn't seem she's much different from Kaido.

It's cos their clash wasn't really serious. Neither was going to kill the other so neither one of them would put in enough effort to take down the other. It's similar to Shanks and Whitebeard but more extended.

Her movement speed isn't fast. Even her combat style isn't based on speed but raw power and Homie usage (including the sword). It's why she mostly come off as a joke.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2022 ---

Luffy needed armor haki internal damage for yonko to feel his punches at all

This applies to only 1 of the Yonko - Kaido alone.
He could most likely damage Big Mom. These are the only 2 Yonko with hard skin but Kaido's is tougher. Everyone and their mothers can damage Whitebeard, Teach and Shanks.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2022 ---

Katakuri's raw power was inferior to gear 4 luffy's.

Do I need to post a panel to debunk this?

Luffy was literally screaming in pain everytime their fist bumped in G4. He was vastly overpowered.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2022 ---

Kaido and Katakuri are without a doubt the most complete fighters we've seen so far.

 

[kkck]

Kaido cannot counter Snakeman without using Future Sight and speed boost by copying Snakeman mode.

Conqueror coating only boost attack power. It has nothing to do with speed and durability.

Act 1 Luffy vs Kaido
Luffy didn't use Future Sight in act 1 against Kaido
Kaido used his fastest attack: Thunder Bagua
--> So it makes sense why Luffy got blitzed

Rooftop Luffy vs Kaido
Luffy used Future Sight this time
And again Thunder Bagua is Kaido's fastest attack. Luffy had no problem dodging Kaido's nameless club swing

If Luffy can keep up with Kaido's speed, it was because Kaido rarely used his fastest attack: Thunder Bagua.

Literally Luffy didn't have speed or durability boost. The biggest boost Luffy had was attack power due to conqueror coating. Mochi Thrust is much more lethal than most of Kaido's conqueror coating attacks. Katakuri can damage Kaido or Big Mom.

What reason is there to think luffy didn't use foresight during his first confrontation? It makes more sense that luffy simply went all out.

As for the speed thing... the reality is that luffy's haki boosts are BS and do whatever. Gear 4 has been consistently portrayed as both faster than gear 2 and stronger than gear 3. Luffy at wano was one shot by thunder bagua. In onigashima we had the bit where he pretty much blitz through kaido and big mom and then he dodged even thunder bagua without gear 4, albeit just barely. Once he got cladding he was clashing with kaido evenly even in his base form. I don't see how that is possible without luffy becoming substantially faster through the battle, because haki is BS.

 

[BlackTiger]

What reason is there to think luffy didn't use foresight during his first confrontation? It makes more sense that luffy simply went all out.

As for the speed thing... the reality is that luffy's haki boosts are BS and do whatever. Gear 4 has been consistently portrayed as both faster than gear 2 and stronger than gear 3. Luffy at wano was one shot by thunder bagua. In onigashima we had the bit where he pretty much blitz through kaido and big mom and then he dodged even thunder bagua without gear 4, albeit just barely. Once he got cladding he was clashing with kaido evenly even in his base form. I don't see how that is possible without luffy becoming substantially faster through the battle, because haki is BS.

Because on the rooftop Luffy was surprised that with Future Sight he was still hit by Thunder Bagua. Luffy being surprised indicates it was the first time he used Future Sight on the rooftop which means in Kuri act 1 Luffy didn't use Future Sight.

If you are referring to these panels, Luffy could completely dodge Thunder Bagua because Kaido was weakened as stated by Yamato. Luffy did not get faster. Kaido became weaker.

Gear 4 without Future Sight is much slower than Gear 4 with Future Sight when it comes to dodging attacks.

Base Luffy with Future Sight dodged Thunder Bagua

Gear 4 Luffy without Future Sight got blitzed by Thunder Bagua

Luffy did not become faster. He became smarter because he used Future Sight to dodge Thunder Bagua instead of not using in his Gear 4 form.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Is it really that hard to believe Luffy became many faster in his base form than he was with Gear 4 previously?

Luffy was splitting the sky in base form. He sure could one-shot his previous self with Gear 4

He never got faster in base. He's decently fast but future sight made it seem he got faster.
Just as in his fight with Katakuri. Luffy couldn't keep up without improving his already good enough observation Haki.
Katakuri's speed is almost comparable to Snake man Luffy yet Luffy went from barely able to dodge most of Kata's attacks to completely dodging most of it after slowly acquiring FS.
He didn't suddenly get faster rather his CoO got better.

CoC Haki cladding gives him serious boost in attack. FS helps him evade even some of the fastest attacks. They have nothing to do with speed (not even attack speed).

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2022 ---

He became smarter because he used Future Sight to dodge Thunder Bagua instead of not using in his Gear 4 form.

This! And to add, he became calmer in the heat of battle.

People were worried Luffy wouldn't be able to utilize FS well (at least not at the level of Kata) after just learning it cos he's a natural hot-head and that kind of stupid protagonist. Oda showed the consequence of that when Kaido blitzed him.

He adjusted to the requirements of FS in the rematch and was able to give Kaido the fight of his life soon afterwards.

 

[kkck]

This applies to only 1 of the Yonko - Kaido alone.
He could most likely damage Big Mom. These are the only 2 Yonko with hard skin but Kaido's is tougher. Everyone and their mothers can damage Whitebeard, Teach and Shanks.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2022 ---

Do I need to post a panel to debunk this?

Luffy was literally screaming in pain everytime their fist bumped in G4. He was vastly overpowered.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2022 ---

Kaido and Katakuri are without a doubt the most complete fighters we've seen so far.

The implication with big mom was that she was every bit as durable as kaido. Both of their durabilities are ultimately attributed to conqueror haki. WB could be damaged though that was attributed to his old age. Teach is pretty vulnerable though we don't know if his haki has been raised to yonko level by now. Shanks is implied to be a cladding user as well so his durability is potentially comparable to kaido's or big mom's.

Luffy's gear 2 punches lost to katakuri's square mochi punchus. Katakuri can potentially deal damage to boundman but there are no instances of him overpowering boundman in the same fashion as gear 2. Boundman was perfectly capable of punching through katakuri's defenses when luffy could land punches.

What do you mean complete? There's plenty of fighters who have excellent skills in all relevant fields of combat... As in haki, devil fruit and martial arts. The three original admirals showed at least haki projection (which katakuri never evidenced) and akainu and aokiji evidenced katakuri like foresight at least once. Rayleigh doesn't have a devil fruit but he evidenced the swordmanship to duke it out with kizaru and showed the highest mastery in all fields of haki except conqueror haki. Issho is a swordsman who daredevils his way across the ocean, odds are he could school katakuri in foresight... Marco fought king and queen simultaneously. Big mom showed absurd haki (and she probably had foresight), she was an excellent physical combatant and the way she abused her fruit was ridiculous. Shanks and mihawk lack devil fruits but their martial arts and haki are definitely top notch. It's pretty damn likely mihawk is a fully realized cladding user (otherwise zoro will breeze through their final fight). Zoro during his fight with king figured out yonko level combat thanks to cladding.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Re-reading the concluding parts of the battle...
Is it just me or is G5 Luffy looking more durable than Kaido?
They were both exhausted at that point but it just seemed like G5 does not bother about hits. While Kaido had to start dodging cos he couldn't afford to get more damaged, G5 was the opposite.

It's crazy!

 

[BlackTiger]

Big Mom's attack speed

Spoiler

Big Mom is never as fast as Kaido

1. Kaido was not serious when he fought Big Mom because Kaido told Luffy that he was the first person to make him serious.

2. Big Mom could have used her devil fruit to turn her surroundings into homies which gave her number advantage. So Big Mom did not have to be as fast as Kaido to fight him for days.

 

[kkck]

Re-reading the concluding parts of the battle...
Is it just me or is G5 Luffy looking more durable than Kaido?
They were both exhausted at that point but it just seemed like G5 does not bother about hits. While Kaido had to start dodging cos he couldn't afford to get more damaged, G5 was the opposite.

It's crazy!

I think the issue here is that luffy's gear 5 allows him to minimize damage from attacks more than ever before. One of gear 5's features is that luffy gets unpresedented control over his elasticity and body to the point where he can pretty much will himself to stretch in any and all directions. As far as I can tell he doesn't need air to inflate himself, he simply wills his body to stretch. He can presumably also increase or decrease his elasticity at will. So he basically alters his body to minimize damage. Then there's also the fact that he can turn the environment to rubber... So he takes reduced damage due to altering his body's elasticity and size and also reduced damage from impact against other stuff by turning it to rubber.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2022 ---

Big Mom's attack speed

Spoiler

Big Mom is never as fast as Kaido

1. Kaido was not serious when he fought Big Mom because Kaido told Luffy that he was the first person to make him serious.

2. Big Mom could have used her devil fruit to turn her surroundings into homies which gave her number advantage. So Big Mom did not have to be as fast as Kaido to fight him for days.

Big mom at that time was basically a different persona from her normal self. Even queen noted her demeanor changed as her memory returned. Big mom is perfectly capable of engaging and matchin kaido in cqc..

 

[BlackTiger]

I think the issue here is that luffy's gear 5 allows him to minimize damage from attacks more than ever before. One of gear 5's features is that luffy gets unpresedented control over his elasticity and body to the point where he can pretty much will himself to stretch in any and all directions. As far as I can tell he doesn't need air to inflate himself, he simply wills his body to stretch. He can presumably also increase or decrease his elasticity at will. So he basically alters his body to minimize damage. Then there's also the fact that he can turn the environment to rubber... So he takes reduced damage due to altering his body's elasticity and size and also reduced damage from impact against other stuff by turning it to rubber.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2022 ---

Big mom at that time was basically a different persona from her normal self. Even queen noted her demeanor changed as her memory returned. Big mom is perfectly capable of engaging and matchin kaido in cqc..

Big Mom only lacked haki. Observation haki does not improve attacks speed and so does armament haki. Whichever state Big Mom was in, it won't improve her attack speed.

Regarding Big Mom vs Kaido, I already stated

1. Kaido was not serious against her because later Kaido told Luffy that Luffy was the first person to go toe to toe with him after decades.
2. Big Mom could have turned her surroundings into homies so she had number advantages. So she did not need to be as fast as Kaido to clash with him for days.

Even normal Big Mom attack was dodged by Luffy and Jinbe in WCI. Big Mom is never that fast.

 

[john ellis]

yes i think if u read back on g5 vs kaido you realize how much superior g5 combat abillites are then kaido's. That said how does kata injury kidd? also did people forget kidd showed multiple large AOE attacks

 

[albertwv]

Claiming Big Mom has combat speed equal to Kaido's is like claiming Buggy = Mihawk since Mihawk could not cut him. LOL.
Kata and King vs BM. I think they would be able to damage and maybe slowly defeat her, if they had one thing at their disposal: PLOT.
They would give her a high diff battle though for sure and ultimately lose.
Remember, Law and Kid won through serious of lucky events. Plot being the biggest. They kept getting smacked down claiming it was their "last attack" over and over again. Then it was Law's DF that seriously scared BM, because it wasn't physical but inner damage. Also, the bombs finalized her defeat, NOT Law or Kid.

I think if it was Law and Kid vs King and Kata with no outside influence. Kata and King would win high diff.