One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Fox666]

They don't destroy islands in seconds. They have large area destruction powers in many cases. With enough attacks they can devastate islands but I think of island destruction in the way of for example, if someone completely sunk an island into the sea. I implied something wrong earlier when I said Zoro has extreme attack power. He does have extreme attack power with his sword waves, but he only uses it on inorganic targets. However, I am pretty sure his haki is stronger than the haki of some admirals and that he could cut them in melee combat. Pica's stone construct was not as big but that does not mean that Zoro couldn't cut Fujitora.

The Admirals literally have island-sized attacks.

I just posted pictures of Aokiji freezing waves many times the size of Marineford, Fujitora lifting all buildings of Dressrosa, etc.

That's common with Logias. We have also seen Enel or Blackbeard doing something similar.

Kid ????!! Kid has been shown of the big 3 to have by far the least potent attack power , his haki is mediocre and just uses brute force
He’s a tank but law and luffy are far superior attack wise

Why do you assume Kid's Haki is mediocre? He used Haki on the bull horns, which heavily damaged Big Mom. That alone should prove his Haki is close to Luffy or Law.


In regards of Kid fighting Katakuri, I think it's simple:

Luffy's attacks on Gear 4 were useless against Kaido, while Kaido speed-blitzed Luffy and one-shotted him.

Do you agree that Katakuri is comparable to Luffy at that point, while Big Mom is comparable to Kaido?

Now if you look at Kid's bull attack on Big Mom, it seems hard to believe Katakuri has the strength or speed to match the attack.

The powercreep in Wano is a bit weird, but it's real.

I implied something wrong earlier when I said Zoro has extreme attack power. He does have extreme attack power with his sword waves, but he only uses it on inorganic targets. However, I am pretty sure his haki is stronger than the haki of some admirals and that he could cut them in melee combat.

I don't see how Zoro's Haki can be compared to an Admiral.

I assume Zoro's Haki is at the level of a commander, while the Admirals are close to the Emperors.

The Admirals' Haki should be many times greater than Zoro.

To be fair, I think Luffy getting one shot in beginning of Wano is an outlier.

The scabbards are all weaker than Katakuri/beginning of Wano Luffy, yet managed to tank hits from Kaido.

I think current Luffy low diffs Katakuri, Kid mid-high diffs Katakuri. He isn't getting one shot by any of them.

Powerlevels in One Piece shouldn't be taken too serious...

It looks like Kaido or Big Mom could one-shot any commander-level character if they felt like it, but simple didn't.

 

[Rmstorm]

Zoro's attack power is very high. The damage he did to Pica's giant stone construct was extreme. Admirals can't destroy entire islands in seconds. Akainu and Aokiji terraformed Punk Hazard into lava and ice, but that took days of fighting to happen as far as i can estimate. Their attacks have never covered a wide enough area on screen to immediately do that. Aokiji was probably able to hit a wide area far more quickly, however.

Kizaru does not have more destructive power than Fujitora. You could argue that he is a more dangerous combatant in some situations, but his level of destruction is quite a lot higher. The problem is that his meteors are best against stationary or slow targets. If enemies can evade the attacks, it won't be as big of a deal, but it works against lots of enemies in an area at once. Kaido is more durable than Big Mom though.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 19, 2022 ---

I think i should add on a detail or two. Luffy doesn't have passive defensive conqueror's haki yet like Big Mom does unless he can use it on his arms defensively now as he does when he uses it offensively, so he is not automatically more tough defensively than Sanji who has an exoskeleton. Zoro hasn't shown much durability defensively because he usually attacks instead of blocking. I agree with most of your points though on the power level measuring except on the admirals.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 20, 2022 ---

Luffy might learn more ways to use his Devil Fruit Awakening over time. He's made his environment rubbery before so he could make rubber restraints around enemies he defeats to restrain them or rubber barriers to block attacks without getting directly hit. They would also be bigger than him so they could block significantly stronger attacks unless he was already giant using Gear 5th. Additionally he could put rubber barriers up for his allies so they had some kind of cover, or he could put up multiple rubber barriers in an area in case he needed cover positions against attacks. Luffy probably wouldn't think of that last one, though.

He can use Advanced Conquerors haki on his body without his arms. Chapter 1036 shows him using it on his head to block Kaido's club attack.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 21, 2022 ---

People underestimate Kidd a lot....like a lot! We been told that you need aCoA and aCoC to break through a Yonko. However, Law and Kidd are an exception. They used their fruits to their maximum potential to achieve what haki could do.

It's been stated 100 times+ that Kidd is the one who confronted BM, while Law used that opportunity to attack. There is even a scene where Kidd and BM charge at each other, only for Kidd to win that exchange.

Lastly, Kidd dealt damage to the outside, while Law did damage to inside. They were portrayed to be equal during the fight against BM.

Luffy's Gear 4 without Advanced Haki could damage big mom in wci, which is why she used Armament Haki to block it.

 

[john ellis]

@zetsu banned post udon luffy was faster and stronger then post wci luffy hence he was able to partially dodge kaido's attack's with FS haki because he was compariable to kaido on the very low end. he then got to kaido's level with g4+Acoc and then surpassed him with g5.

i think the power scaling is obvious

kaido>>>>post wci luffy>kata(slightly at best)

udon luffy>kid=kata(at best this is the best kata will have to defeat kidd)

kaido>>post udon luffy>>>kata

kaido=acoc+g4 luffy(kaido at most has a slight edge>>>>>>kata

g5 luffy>kaido>kid>>>>>>>>>>>>>kata

i think luffy would low dif kata in gear 5 if he doesn't out right one shot him.

 

[catagon87]

I'm tired of seeing this get parroted. Future sight doesn't work if you're not calm, and Luffy had just seen what he thought was his crew being annihilated. We literally see what happens when he successfully uses future sight against the same exact attack when he uses it during Roofpiece.

• No future sight in G4? Blitzed and one-shot by Thunder Bagua.
• Future sight in base form? Gets clipped a little bit by Thunder Bagua.

Future sight is insanely effective.

Didn't Kaido basically confirm that he also has/had future sight? I thought at their level when both users have it that it basically just cancels out. Basically a prerequisite to fighting someone with future sight should be you're just an order of magnitude faster than them, or you also have it.

But again, how do we know he was 100% serious and not just testing Luffy? He probably put full power, but he wasn't trying his best to hit Luffy. It's not like he was shocked that Luffy was dodging his attacks, just that he was calm. Also, if Mihawk has future sight then he could have seen Luffy dodging and did just enough to ensure he can dodge.

True but to be fair, Luffy's resilient as fuck. Wasn't he still using Conqueror's haki even after being knocked out by Kaidou? Despite everything up to that point,he was still chugging along, and it took a severe mental trauma to finally stop him.

IMO if Mihawk had actually wanted to cut off Luffy's arms, then he would have. Luffy was basically treated like an ant in Marineford, because he was one. No-name WB pirates were defeating Pacifista, after Luffy struggled so much against one, IIRC. I think we can safely assume that Hawkeye has probably maxed haki out about as far as you can.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 21, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 21, 2022 ---

I don't really get the Kidd hate or thinking Kidd is weak. While I don't think he's stronger than Luffy, he is definitely a powerful fighter. He broke Big Mom's bones with brute force. Apparently you can learn advanced forms of Haki in a matter of weeks, so it's not like he's THAT far behind Luffy. I also think if he can increase his stamina towards his awakening that he'd be quite a force. That awakening was enough to stick Big Mom to things, so it seems pretty powerful. If he could stick someone to the Earth, or something, he could immobilize opponents like Luffy, and shoot them repeatedly with his Rail Gun. When he improves his COC (which I'm sure he will. Oda seems to like Kidd as a rival to Luffy) he will have COC imbued Rail-Gun blasts.

 

[HereNThere]

Eh, personally, I really don't think Luffy's physical gains were that significant post Udon. He was still being outpaced by Kaido on the Rooftop, even with the help of Future Sight. As we got further into the fight, yeah, Luffy started to catch up to his speed as, presumably, Kaido got tired and Luffy got his gains, with Gear 5 being the boost that allowed him to really match Kaido physically.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Kid is obviously weaker than Luffy but he fought a Yonkou head on, imho there is no way he loses to Katakuri.

Any of the top tiers can fight a Yonko head on in a 1v1 but most would lose. How fast they go down will be the difference. In fact most fighters look good when facing off against Kaido cos he allows you to throw your all at him. Then proceeds to put you in your place. With Big Mom, they look even better since she always looks down on everyone not named Whitebeard or Roger.

Without a doubt Kid and Law improved in strength and together were able to put in a good fight versus Big Mom but that speaks more of their teamwork than individual strength. This doesn't necessarily make them stronger than Beckman or Katakuri or Marco. It's still an extreme battle if either faced any of these 3 characters isolated.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 21, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 21, 2022 ---

His brute force was shown to be exceedingly effective against known physical monster, Big Mom. The fact that Punk Corna Dio could break a few of her bones and even had her worried enough to uproot a tower to block it is really impressive in terms of raw power.

Is that what brute force is? Or devil fruit enhanced attacks?
Kid definitely hasn't shown the physical strength the 2 Yonko possess, not even close. But his durability and endurance is where I'd give him the props. He makes up for raw power with his DF and can get to hax levels with awakening techniques. Law's DF is hax by default and even more so with awakening techniques but he also suffers in the same department as Kid. I'd argue he possess similarly impressive endurance (although Kid's is better).

Kid and Law have shown exactly what we know with 1st commanders and that's hax abilities. That's especially true with Law. Alone, they are merely hindrance or a good enough distraction to keep a Yonko busy but together, they could come close to doing the unthinkable. The nature of the battle field made them come out on top in the fight with Big Mom but it wouldn't have been the case on proper land. They'd wind up dead otherwise.

I would place them in the same ball park as Marco, Katakuri and Beckmann (whenever we get to see him) but not above.

 

[Rmstorm]

Eh, personally, I really don't think Luffy's physical gains were that significant post Udon. He was still being outpaced by Kaido on the Rooftop, even with the help of Future Sight. As we got further into the fight, yeah, Luffy started to catch up to his speed as, presumably, Kaido got tired and Luffy got his gains, with Gear 5 being the boost that allowed him to really match Kaido physically.

The post Udon.gains were actaully massive, this allowed Luffy to master using gear 2 and 3 at the same time, which boosted his base to almost Gear 4 levels with advanced Haki.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Attack potency wise I sincerely believe only the admiral and yonkou class are ahead of law
Laws attacks are incredibly broken
Laws punk willie blew a hole all the way down , he’s the one that made the hole that sent big mum down to lava

 

[Core D. Roy]

Didn't Kaido basically confirm that he also has/had future sight? I thought at their level when both users have it that it basically just cancels out. Basically a prerequisite to fighting someone with future sight should be you're just an order of magnitude faster than them, or you also have it.

Yeah but he only chose to use it close to the end of his fight with G5 Luffy. Every other time we've seen Kaidou take attacks, he takes them head on on purpose.

 

[HereNThere]

Is that what brute force is? Or devil fruit enhanced attacks?
Kid definitely hasn't shown the physical strength the 2 Yonko possess, not even close. But his durability and endurance is where I'd give him the props. He makes up for raw power with his DF and can get to hax levels with awakening techniques. Law's DF is hax by default and even more so with awakening techniques but he also suffers in the same department as Kid. I'd argue he possess similarly impressive endurance (although Kid's is better).

Kid and Law have shown exactly what we know with 1st commanders and that's hax abilities. That's especially true with Law. Alone, they are merely hindrance or a good enough distraction to keep a Yonko busy but together, they could come close to doing the unthinkable. The nature of the battle field made them come out on top in the fight with Big Mom but it wouldn't have been the case on proper land. They'd wind up dead otherwise.

I would place them in the same ball park as Marco, Katakuri, and Beckmann (whenever we get to see him) but not above.

He brute-forced his move with his was with his devil fruit, yes. The specifics of how he did it don't really matter as the end result was that he was capable of messing up Big Mom physically despite her durability. He kept tossing metal at her at high speeds and it basically worked. That's brute-forcing it, in my opinion.

I don't think he needs to be as strong as Big Mom or Kaido physically to be pegged as a top tier. He didn't do what Luffy did, but what he and Law accomplished was damn impressive. While I do agree that circumstances played a role in their victory, the fact that they were able to push her as hard as they did can't be understated, especially when she herself noted their strength and that they were the first individuals in a long time to deal damage to her.

The post Udon.gains were actaully massive, this allowed Luffy to master using gear 2 and 3 at the same time, which boosted his base to almost Gear 4 levels with advanced Haki.

I'd say his increased Haki proficiency pulled most, if not all, of that weight. His using Gear 2 and Gear 3 together shows that he mastered his fruit ability more, but that doesn't imply his physical abilities improved substantially. This is further backed up when Luffy actually masters AdCoC and is able to fully match Kaido's clashes in his base form through the use of it rather than through direct physical ability. Even after gaining an understanding of the technique, Luffy was still getting clapped by various Bagua's throughout the fight.

 

[Fox666]

I'm tired of seeing this get parroted. Future sight doesn't work if you're not calm, and Luffy had just seen what he thought was his crew being annihilated. We literally see what happens when he successfully uses future sight against the same exact attack when he uses it during Roofpiece.

• No future sight in G4? Blitzed and one-shot by Thunder Bagua.
• Future sight in base form? Gets clipped a little bit by Thunder Bagua.

Future sight is insanely effective.

Becoming 4 times stronger also helped a bit.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Lufffy Gained a significant base buff in strength speed and stamina after udon tho , he was noticeably more muscular

 

[Core D. Roy]

So the power to literally see the future isn't a big deal, but a couple weeks getting a six pack is the deal-maker that made Luffy several times faster in base mode than he was in G4. This is ridiculous. He wasn't using future sight with the one-shot. He was using future sight on Roofpiece. I don't even understand how this can be misinterpreted.

 

[LaGOAT]

Katakuri to me is weaker than king

 

[M3J]

I would agree that Katakuri is overrated. He is strong among the commanders but nothing much when compared to a Yonkou.

This doesn't make sense when no commander is even remotely comparable to an emperor.

Luffy's Gear 4 without Advanced Haki could damage big mom in wci, which is why she used Armament Haki to block it.

Nah, she could have used Armament haki because she didn't want to risk taking any damage. Wouldn't mean Luffy could damage her.

 

[albertwv]

I am on Kata's side. First of all, just because Kid's magnet bull could damage BM and break her arm, does NOT necessarily mean he is stronger than others who may not replicate that feat, at least not in ONE PIECE. It's like saying somebody who can lift 500 pounds is stronger/ can defeat a Kung Fu/Karate Master who does not do heavy lifting. Maybe if he lands a hit, but I would have my money on the person who actually knows how to fight.
Read that again.

Katakuri is shown to be extremely fast, definetly faster than Big Mom and has seen avoiding attacks. If Kid who has not demonstrated CoC, cannot land a single blow on Kata, then how will he ever win. On the other hand, Kid's defenses do not seem over the top like Big Mom's, he has a high endurance that's for sure. So then Kata could potentially, nay, definelty overwhelm Kid physically and win the match.
Kid landed heavy blows on BM, because she is a HUGE target and like Kaido do not bother dodging attacks because of their overconfidence.

Law on the other hand, is not extremely strong, but it's his DF that makes it tricky for people. If it was law fighting BM solo, he would have lost. Same goes for Kid. Kid could not have won alone. Actually the 2 fighting BM, were extremely lucky in that battle, If it wasn't for the explosion bombs and the underground volcano eruption than BM would have gotten up.

Do NOT put Kid and Law in the same rank as Luffy in power level scaling.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

I am on Kata's side. First of all, just because Kid's magnet bull could damage BM and break her arm, does NOT necessarily mean he is stronger than others who may not replicate that feat, at least not in ONE PIECE. It's like saying somebody who can lift 500 pounds is stronger/ can defeat a Kung Fu/Karate Master who does not do heavy lifting. Maybe if he lands a hit, but I would have my money on the person who actually knows how to fight.
Read that again.

Katakuri is shown to be extremely fast, definetly faster than Big Mom and has seen avoiding attacks. If Kid who has not demonstrated CoC, cannot land a single blow on Kata, then how will he ever win. On the other hand, Kid's defenses do not seem over the top like Big Mom's, he has a high endurance that's for sure. So then Kata could potentially, nay, definelty overwhelm Kid physically and win the match.
Kid landed heavy blows on BM, because she is a HUGE target and like Kaido do not bother dodging attacks because of their overconfidence.

Law on the other hand, is not extremely strong, but it's his DF that makes it tricky for people. If it was law fighting BM solo, he would have lost. Same goes for Kid. Kid could not have won alone. Actually the 2 fighting BM, were extremely lucky in that battle, If it wasn't for the explosion bombs and the underground volcano eruption than BM would have gotten up.

Do NOT put Kid and Law in the same rank as Luffy in power level scaling.

Lmaoo people underestimate his how buffed stamina and durability law has come along

He’s the only one who Didn’t get put down or knocked out

 

[Urek Mazino]

So the power to literally see the future isn't a big deal, but a couple weeks getting a six pack is the deal-maker that made Luffy several times faster in base mode than he was in G4. This is ridiculous. He wasn't using future sight with the one-shot. He was using future sight on Roofpiece. I don't even understand how this can be misinterpreted.

Of course it is ridiculous, it doesn't make any sense that he goes from getting one-shotted to defeating Kaido in couple of weeks. But that's how things work in One Piece. Many times characters get stronger in couple of days just because it's a new arc, without any training. At least here he was shown to actually do something to get stronger.

And about future sight, i don't think it would help him in the first encounter because he simply wouldn't be able to evade it even if he saw it.

Maybe i'm wrong but i think that future sight works in a way that character sees that attack coming only after the other person decides to do it. It is not like it was predetermined that, for example, Kaido would do exactly that attack at exactly that place and time. It was just a possibility and that future became reality when Kaido decided to go with that attack. So imho that time frame from when Luffy would see that attack coming and before it hits him would be too short for him to evade because he was simply too slow at that point.

 

[XXGenesis]

ODA simply dropped the ball with the character Kidd. It’s probably due to the rushed plot points of Wano.

Kidd’s fighting style is very underwhelming. He’s a complete hammer that hits nails. You would think if Oda wasn’t gonna highlight his haki skill: His DF powers would be more creative…They’re not…Kidd’s best display with his DF powers was trapping Zeus’s; & His EM Cannon..& the cannon was suppose to be a trump card that wasn’t more effective than his Giant Bull……it’s all underwhelming still yet he fought, survived and damaged a yonkou. That puts him above any & all commanders…

 

[Urek Mazino]

This doesn't make sense when no commander is even remotely comparable to an emperor.

Not sure what doesn't make sense because that's exactly what i said.

Some ppl think that Kid can't win vs Katakuri and i said that while Katakuri could be considerd strong when compared to other commanders he is nowhere near a Yonkou. Kid fought a yonkou and while he is obviously still not at that level he put up a good fight and that's why i think he would beat Katakuri.